In most of these hospitals were the wounded soldiers of the Albanian War. But as the Army had capitulated and was dissolved the Army doctors of these hospitals remained in the hospitals as civilian doctors to take care of the wounded soldiers. One after the other, the hospitals were requisitioned by the Germans, and these wounded persons who were in them were put out in the streets. The wounded soldiers who were without legs, without arms, and without eyes were kept in a hospital situated on the Avenue of Queen Sophia. The Germans ordered the requisition of this hospital with a notice of three hours. The director of the hospital had not the means to transport his wounded men and no house where he could put them in. He applied to the police and I went personally myself in my uniform on the spot. The wounded men were lying on the pavement on the laps of the female nurses. When I got there a wounded soldier, without arms and legs, spat into my face. I understood that by doing that he intended to show his contempt for the Greek Government who could not protect and take care of him any more. I did my best to find a house, and at last I found a school called Marashion. But we had no means to transport them; so we transported them on our hands in blankets. This is the way we were obliged to take the heroes of the Albanian Front.
Q Did they allow (Withdraw). What did they allow the people who were evicted from the hospital to take with them?
A They were allowed to take only their blankets.
Q Did they leave the hospital equipment in the hospital?
A Yes.
Q And who took the hospital over?
A The Germans who had the intention to occupy that hospital at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q How many hospitals in Athens did the Germans requisition?
A I can't say precisely. But I remember that they left over to the Greeks a small part of the hospital called Evzone and another small section of the Red Cross hospital.
Q How big a hospital was this one of which you have spoken?
A It had approximately three hundred beds.
Q Did there come a time when the SS moved into Greece?
A Yes.
Q And will you--when was that approximately?
A I don't know; I don't remember exactly the date.
Q Will you tell us what happened after the SS came?
A I would like to tell you what happened before the arrival of the SS.
Q All right.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I object to this question. It refers to the activity of the SS in Greece. None of the defendants charged here had any discipline in a jurisdictional way in any activity of the SS. And the fact that it was illegal can never be charged against the defendants. This complex cannot interest us, and I ask you not to allow it to be discussed here.
MR. DENNEY: In connection with that, Your Honor, it may not interest Dr. Laternser, but it's certainly of interest to us and there is no condition, and I assume there won't be, that the defendants-some of them--were in that theater. That is, in Greece. It was all part of the Southeast. The Tribunal has seen documents with references to SS divisions--the 5th SS Corps, the Waffen SS, the SS Skanderbeg Division. And for Dr. Laternser to maintain that the SS is not in any way concerned with these people is, I submit, extending it a little far, and I submit the witness may testify as to what was done by Germans down there.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: The matters to which Dr. Laternser refers, appear to this Tribunal to be defensive in nature and will receive such attention as the defense desires to present at the time they submit their testimony in evidence. The objection will be over-ruled.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Witness, I had asked you a question but you said there was something else you wanted to say first. Will you please continue with what you wanted to tell the Tribunal.
A I would like to tell you about the requisition of the houses and of the means of transportation.
Q Please do.
A The requisition of the means of transportation was done on such a big scale that only very few remained for the use of the population. All the communications of the civilians was made by walking and sometimes in big distances. And about this time many requisitions of central houses was made and the citizens had nowhere to live.
Q It is true-
DR. LATERNSER: I object to this statement. The witness cannot state what he wants to state -- it is usual that a witness answers his questions. What he has just said now has nothing to do with the question put to him. When the question was put to him the witness said, "I want to talk about this now". He has to answer questions.
MR. DENNEY: I would suggest that Dr. Laternser keep his ear phones on and listen in German. He would understand that I had withdrawn the question in view of the witness's statements that he had something he wanted to tell the Tribunal, and I asked him to please tell the Tribunal what he wanted to tell them.
We have not questioned on the SS as yet.
PRESIDENT: WENNERSTRUM: The objection is overruled.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q Please continue.
A It is true that later on the German authorities instituted the service in the German commandatur to take care of the people who were driven away from their homes, but at the beginning, it was hopeless for them. They had nowhere to go. At the same time, the electric current was cut from the houses of the civilians and only the German institutions had any electricity.
By that way the Greek people were in the dark. For the telephonic connections of the different German services and units, the Germans put on a special service of telephones. These wires were put on the pavements, on the ground, and if they were cut during the night, - any of these wires was cut - it was considered sabotage.
We asked the Germans to put these wires on high poles so that the population was not endangered by any reprisals, if any such wire was cut. They did not allow it to us. We ordered Greek civilians to keep an guard on these wires during the night, and one night one of these wires was cut off. Then the Mayor of Athens, Professor Meringis, thereupon was arrested, and was taken to the Ministry of the Interior of Greece.
Later on, the chief of the Police was ordered to be arrested; at that time I was deputizing for him being away and so I went to the Ministry of the Interior where I was detained. The Germans asked us to give them 20 names of 20 Greek citizens who would be considered as hostages, and we refused to give away these names. Two ministers of the Quissling government were called to come to the Ministry of the Interior. The ministers ordered us to give away these names. Both the mayor and myself refused again to give these names, and we said that we could only give our own names. The ministers left, and we were under arrest until 6 o'clock in the afternoon.
And later on the Germans asked us to pay a fine of one million drachmas. It was late in the evening, and the banks were closed, and the cashier of the police was also closed, so the Mayor under custody, went to his own house, brought back to the Ministry of the Interior the one million and handed it over to the Germans. The Germans kept our names and liberated us, set us free. The railway going to Larissa, Peloponnesus, - on these railways a wagon was put in front of the engine. This wagon was uncovered, but had wires, and in this wagon 20 or 30 or 40 Greek hostages were put. They were unprotected from the sun, the rain and the cold, and they were put into that wagon for the safety of the German troops against the attacks of the guerillas.
Q Did you see such cars on the trains?
A I used to see such cars every day, because I lived near the railway of Larissa and Pelopennesus. Very seldom there was a train without one or two such cars.
Q And those cars were placed where on the train?
A. These cars were placed before the engine. They were covered with wires only. Then followed the engine. After the engine came a car or wagon where the German guard was and then was the rest of the train.
Q. Well, all right, now were these cars placed there in winter and summer?
A. Yes, winter and summer.
Q. And did you see them winter and summer?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And you saw them in front of most of the trains that left Athens during the occupation?
A. Yes, on the trains that left Athens and came into Athens.
Q. Now, was there a concentration camp in Athens?
A. Yes, a concentration camp of Chaidari.
Q. Where was it?
A. Northwest of Athens, on the road leading from Athens to Eleusis, a little bit farther out of the street, not exactly on the main road but a little bit inside.
Q. When was that camp opened?
A. I don't exactly remember but I think it was opened in 1943.
Q. What people were sent there?
A. People who were arrested in different blockings-off.
Q. I am sorry, I didn't understand you.
A. People who were arrested during the different blockings-off of different districts in Athens.
Q. Will you tell the Court how these district blockings-off took place?
A. At different districts of Athens and in different times of the day or of the night the Germans surrounded a district of the town or a street and they arrested a certain number of citizens who inhabited that surrounded area. Of those arrested, some were sent to the concentration camp of Chaidari and the most, the great bulk of them, were sent to Germany for forced labor and very often some of them were executed on the spot.
Q. Did you receive reports of these executions in these blockingoff actions?
A. I received a report from police headquarters of Piraeus of the execution of people during the blocking-off of Kokinia.
Q. Will you tell the Court what that report was?
A. The report said that on a certain date, which I cannot remember now, the Germans surrounded or made a blocking-off, as it was said at that time, in the district of Nea-Kokinia, and they arrested a great number of civilians. Out of this number, a number of ten to fifteen people, I cannot exactly tell you the exact number, were led near a wall which was near the place of the arrest and were executed on the spot without any trial or any formality.
Q. How were these people picked?
A. They used an informer who was hiding his dress by a black garb and a black mask on his face. He passed over the lines of the arrestees and he indicated some of them. By this manner the persons who were to be executed were picked.
Q. Did he say anything when he designated these people?
A. He only showed in his hand without speaking at all. This was the usual manner in every blocking-off and in Valuja (?) and in Chaidavi and in Kaphallenia (?) and in Verroia (?). Those are districts of Athens.
Q. How were the Jewish people treated in Athens?
A. At first, an order was issued by the Germans that every Jew had to report to the Rabbi. After a certain short time, those Jews who were ordered to report to their Rabbi were ordered to present themselves to the German Kommandantur where their names were taken down and then they were set free.
Later on, during a religious celebration they had at their synagogue, they were arrested in masse by the Germans. Later on, they were persecuted in their own private houses because in Greece they didn't live in a separate part of the town but they were living among other people and there was no distinction between Jews and non-Jews.
At the beginning the Spanish Jews were protected but later on the Spanish Jews also were persecuted and some of them managed to escape to the Middle East or went to the mountains.
Q. One or two questions about some of the matter you have gone over. Were the police armed? The Athens police, that is, were the Greek police armed?
A. The Greek police had nothing else but clubs but during the last months of the occupation they gave them very few arms.
Q. You spoke of the requisitioning of food by the German troops. Did they pay for that food?
A. No, they never paid. They paid later on when they were taking Greek banknotes of three billion drachmas.
Q. Now did there come a time when you received a report with reference to some deaths with occurred in Kalavrita?
A. In Kalavrita all the male population of the town was executed.
Q. Did you receive reports of this?
A. When I knew of this happening, I went to my superior--
Q. Now please answer my question. I asked you if you received reports of the deaths in Kalavrita?
A. I was not competent to receive such a report because my competence did not extend to Kalavrita.
Q. Did you have something to do with Greek pension system?
A. As the director of the air raid protection, I was the competent authority to give pensions for all those who were killed by the air raid bombardments and to those who were executed by the Germans without previous military decision.
Q. Did you receive in that capacity reports which requested pensions for people in Kalavrita?
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how many reports did you receive and what did they state?
A. I cannot exactly remember the total number but the reports I received and the demands for pension mentioned the execution of the fathers and all the male children of every family in Kalavrita. I have in mind requests of the widow of a father who was killed with his five and another with his six male children.
Q. In your capacity on this pension committee did you receive other requests for pensions?
A. I received thousands of these requests but I cannot exactly remember all of them but I remember the most important of them and those were those of Kalavrita, Distomon, Rogon, Lamerno, Zachlorou.
Q. And what did these reports give as the cause of death on them?
A. Mass execution by the Germans.
Q. Do you recall when the Italians withdrew from Greece?
A. Late in the summer of 1943.
Q. Do you recall any events which happened after that?
A. Yes. Could you restate your question, Mr. Denney?
Q. Well, I am directing your attention to the time late in 1943 when the Italian forces withdrew from Greece and asking you whether or not you recall any events which took place thereafter in Athens about which you would like to tell the Tribunal.
A. Then the executions of the hostages were intensified.
Q. Dr. Dimitrios, will you please speak a little louder. Please speak into the microphone.
A. After the recapitulation of the Italians the executions by the Germans were intensified; they grew in numbers.
Q. Did you get reports in the police office in Athens with reference to executions?
A. We could not receive official reports because these would be considered as espionage.
Q. Well, did your police officers report to you nevertheless?
A. After every execution the police officer of the (district of Skopeftirion) rifle range - that is where most of the executions took place - was called by the Germans to take them away and see to the burial.
Q. Did he then advise you as to the numbers of people who were buried?
A. Yes.
Q. And how long did these killings take place, over what period of time?
A. I remember the execution of 7 officers and that was the first one in Athens, of 7 Navy officers among whom was the Lieutenant Kasagros; the execution of 120 people, and then the execution of 73 people near Defni, the last days before the withdrawal of the German forces from Athens. I remember also several executions of smaller numbers of persons, that is to say, 7 to 10, but I cannot certify their dates.
Q. During what period of time did these executions take place?
A. Especially after the arrival of the SS these executions and the blockings-off were intensified.
Q. And when did the SS come to Athens?
A. I am not very sure; I don't remember it well, but I believe it was in the late summer of 1943.
Q. You have told us about the attitude toward the Jewish people.
Do you know anything about transports of Jewish people from Athens?
A. In cattle cars many people were put in, in a way that they could hardly stand. There was no room for them to sit down and in that way, in those closed wagons, which only had small holes for breathing, they were transported out of Athens. I personally say many trains loaded with such a burden.
BY JUDGE BURKE:
Q. Will you repeat the answer?
A. I personally saw many trains loaded with such human burden.
Q. Human burden?
A. Human burden, yes.
BY MR. DENNEY:
Q. Do you mean cargo, Dr.?
A. Yes.
MR. DENNEY: He means cargo, Your Honor.
Q. How big was the concentration camp of which you have spoken?
A. This concentration camp was used as a barracks before the war. When the Germans came, it was unused so they took it over and used it as a concentration camp. The area, the whole area of this camp, is about approximately as big as this court house.
Q. And when you say the court house, you mean the whole court house, you don't mean this little room?
A. Certainly.
Q. How many inmates could the camp accommodate?
A. It contained between 2,000 and 3,000 people but it could contain many more.
Q. What were the inmates used for?
A. Forced labor, and others were imprisoned there. From that concentration camp the hostages who were to be shot were taken, and from that concentration camp they used to take people and send them to Germany for forced labor and the contents of this concentration camp were usually renewed when it began to get empty.
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I have no further questions. Perhaps defense counsel might like to start cross examination tomorrow in view of the shortness of time remaining here.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you prefer that your cross examination commence tomorrow morning, Dr. Laternser?
DR. LATERNSER: May I put a few questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, could you describe to me this court of law in which you are present: how many wings it has, etc.; how many floors?
MR. DENNEY: I submit, Your Honors, the question is immaterial. He said the concentration camp covers about the same area as this whole court building.
THE PRESIDENT: Overruled.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, would you kindly describe this to me? We have to have this description by half past four. How many wings has this court house got?
A. The building or this room?
Q. You were comparing the concentration camp, the alleged concentration camp, with this court house, and you said that it had been at least as large as this building. For you to say that you must know the size of this building. How many wings has this building got?
A. I do not know the length or the width of the space that is covered by this court house. I never spoke about this building or the wings or whatever else of this court house. I only said that the concentration camp was about the dimension of the grounds of this court house.
Q. How long do you estimate this building in which you find yourself now; how long in distance?
A. I cannot tell you how many meters it is long or wide but particularly what I saw of it I can say it was approximately the same as that of the concentration camp.
Q. If you make comparisons, you should know this building in more detail. How many rooms approximately does this court house contain?
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, I submit that the witness has made the comparison and I might know Dr. Laternser is as tall as Dr. Sauter or shorter, and I might not know how tall Dr. Sauter is or how tall Dr. Laternser is, and I don't think he should be allowed to argue with the witness.
DR. LATERNSER: I did not argue with the witness. I put very precise questions to him.
Q. I repeat my question. How many wings has this court house got?
A. I have never counted them.
Q. How many floors has this court house got?
A. I never counted them because it was of no interest to me.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be adjourned at chis time until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 15 August 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Wilhelm List, et al, defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 15 August 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Carter, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal V.
Military Tribunal V is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the court.
May it please your Honors, all defendants are present in the court room.
The persons in the court room will be seated.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Marshal, will you ascertain, if all the defendants are present in the courtroom?
MARSHAL: May it please Your Honor all the defendants are present in the courtroom.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: Judge Edward F. Carter will preside at this day's session.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You may proceed, Mr. Denney:
MR. DENNEY: I believe at the conclusion of yesterday's session Dr. Laternser was cross-examining the witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Dr. Laternser.
NICHOLAS NERIS - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. Witness, you said yesterday that from 1940 on you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens. Until when were you in that office?
A. Approximately six months after the entry of the German troops to Athens.
Q. And when was that? When did the six months come to an end as far as the date is concerned?
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. If you don't know the exact date may I ask you to give me the approximate date?
A. When the Germans entered Athens, the Chief of the Police resigned and Mr. Vassilopulos became Chief of the Police. With him I became Chief of Staff of Mr. Vassilopulos.
Q. I asked you for the approximate date when you gave up this office?
A. I can't exactly remember the date.
Q. I did not ask for the exact date but for the approximate date?
A. I can't remember exactly those dates because I was serving in Athens as Deputy Director of the Police and as Chief of Staff of the Police. I was all the time there.
Q. If you say the whole time, what do you mean by that?
A. I mean that during all this period I was in Athens.
Q. When you left the office of Deputy Police what did you become then?
A. Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
Q. And from which time to which time did you hold this position?
A. As I said yesterday approximately one year and a half.
Q. Into which period of time do these 18 months fall as regards dates.
A. I cannot remember by heart these dates. If I knew it would have been so important to you I would have made a certificate and show it to you; if I would tell you now it wouldn't be the correct dates.
Q. Witness, I mean the time in which you were Deputy of the Chief of Police in Athens and Chief of Staff of the Police Corps. That must have been experiences in your life that this should cause you to remember the approximate dates. I, therefore, ask you for the approximate dates for the period of time in which you were Chief of Staff of a Police Corps?
A. He wants to help you as much as he can but he cannot remember even approximately these dates.
Q. You can't even approximately remember these dates in order to make this quite clear?
A. He cannot because if he tried to do it may not be the truth.
Q. You want to say then that you know neither the exact date nor the approximate date of the time during which you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens, and of the time during which you were Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police. Do you really want to say that.
A. I don't remember the exact date.
Q. My question is whether you want to say that you don't even remember the approximate date?
A. During 6 months after the entry of the German troops in Athens he was Deputy Chief of the Police and after this 6 months he was one year and a half Chief of Staff of the Chief of the Police. It would be very easy to give you the precise dates if he knew you would have been so interested in them.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Might I suggest to the interpreter that he answer in the first person just as the witness does. Do you understand what I mean?
DR. DIMITRIOS: Yes, your Honor.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. When did the German troops leave Greece?
A. The German troops left Athens on the 12th of October 1944.
Q. And what office did you occupy after the withdrawal of the German troops?
A. I was the Director of the Air Raid Protection.
Q. After the withdrawal of the German troops did you not occupy another office? I assume as Director of Air Raid Precaution, after the withdrawal of the German troops, you didn't have much to do.
A. Yes, after the withdrawal of the Germans I had another job.
Q. And what was this position?
A. I was Director of the Police section of the Ministry of the Interior.
Q. One thing, witness, is correct, that during the German occupation you were for a longer period of time Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
DR. DIMITRIOS: I didn't get the question.
Q. One thing is true, witness, you were during the German occupation Deputy Chief of Police and Chief of Staff of the Chief of Police.
MR. DENNEY: If your Honors please, I object to the form of Dr. Laternser's question.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: Objection sustained.
DR. LATERNSER: I believe that the translation of my question sounded perhaps a bit different in English, as I put it in German.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I asked, as far as I remember, that one thing is true, witness, that during the occupation you filled the office of the Deputy Chief of Police and the other one, the meaning of which as the Prosecutor sees it is not contained in the German feeling for language. It may be that this meaning came out in the translation. I cannot judge that.
MR. DENNEY: He has stated facts; I don't think he has to preface them with the remark he has again made.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: You might ask another question, Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, is it correct that during the time of the German occupation you were Deputy Chief of Police in Athens and later Chief of Staff of the Police Corps; the main meaning of this question lies in the fact that you occupied these offices during the time of occupation.
A Yes, it is quite true.
Q Witness, when did you arrive at Nuernberg?
A I left Athens last Sunday morning and got to Nuernberg last Monday afternoon.
Q Did you come by train?
A I came by plane.
Q Why didn't you come by train? Are there no trains in Greece?
A There are no trains coming direct from Greece here.
Q Is there no train service between Greece in the direction of Germany?
MR. DENNEY: The witness hasn't been qualified as a railroad expert.
DR. LATERNSER: You don't need to have an expert. One can know that without being an expert.
A There are no trains connecting Greece with Germany nowadays, but I received an order from the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs to travel on that plane.
Q Where are you living at present in Nuernberg?
A I live now at the Grand Hotel.
Q Is that a German hotel?
A Well, it is a German hotel but where only Americans are living.
Q Was that hotel confiscated from the Germans?
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors please, I don't think the witness is competent to testify as to whether the Americans confiscated something or not.
PRESIDING JUDGE CARTER: I think the objection is good; sustained.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q When did the Germans enter Greece?
A They entered into Athens on the 27th of April 1941.
Q Was Greece not only occupied by German troops but also by Italian troops?
A I know that at that precise date only German troops came into Athens.
Q How was it in the time after that? Who occupied Greece?
AAt that time we were like slaves and we didn't know what happened to the rest of Greece but at that precise date only German troops came into Athens.
Q I did not now ask you for the exact date but I am asking you who kept Greece occupied, during the time in which it was occupied at all.
A Not only German troops but Bulgarian troops and Italian troops used to occupy different territories of Greece.
Q Witness, which part of the country was occupied by German troops and which part of the country was occupied by Italian troops?
A I cannot tell you exactly which parts were occupied by each of the two enemy forces but the only thing I tell you is that the Italians were brought in by the Germans as their satellites.
Q Witness, apparently you don't know many things quite clearly and for that reason I don't ask you quite definitely. But I want to know some things approximately which as the then chief of Police you ought to know, and for that reason I want to know which part of the country was occupied by German troops and which part was occupied by Italian troops?
A I don't know.
Q Do you say witness, that you as deputy Chief of Police of Athens, do not know which parts of Greece were occupied by the Germans and which part of Greece was occupied by the Italian troops?
A If I don't know something extremely well I cannot give an answer to it.
Q And if you don't know something exactly I ask you in what area were the zones in Greece, the Italian zones and German zones?
A Well, that is what you asked me before and I told you I don't know it precisely.
Q Witness, who was in Southern Greece, German or Italian troops?
A I was always in Athens during that period and in the beginning only the Germans troops came, but later on they were followed by Italian troops.
Q You just mentioned Athens. Under whose military command was Athens, under the German Command or the Italian Command?
A The German