PRESIDING JUSTICE BURKE: It may be well to have the system checked.
(A short recess was taken at 2156 hours.)
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
BY DR. MUELLER-Torgaw:
A.- We have documents in Greece to prove that the Germans were releasing Communist leaders from their prisons in order to employ them against us. For instance, there was a man by the name of Tzimas, one of the Communist leaders. And I also know of another case where 35 Communist leaders were released from the Concentration Camp of Chaidari. The Germans would kill every Greek citizen, without differentiating between them, the moment they fought against them. Regardless if they were Royalists, Communists, or Democrats. The Germans would tend and would be ready to use every Greek citizen who did not have enough brains to know-better. They would use every criminal means and every criminal element, regardless whether he acted like a Communist, like a Royalist, or like a Democrat.
Q.- Was this the rule, Witness, that the Germans collaborated with the Communists, that is the EAM? And was it....
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Will you speak a little louder, Interpreter, please?
INTERPRETER (Dr. Hildesheimer): Was it usual, witness, that the Germans collaborated with the Communists, that is the EAH?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, I submit that we're getting very very far afield.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: That objection is sustained.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q.- Witness, you haven't answered my question whether the Germans in October 1943 divided the two organization EDES and EAM. Will you please explain this very shortly.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to the question for the same reason that I objected to the previous question.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: If the witness knows he may answer it.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
A.- I answered. I said that the German policy was to start the EAM to fight against the EDES; and they succeeded in doing so. Therefore, the patriots who were in the EDES and in the ELAS are not guilty because they were ready to fight against the Germans. What I meant to say was that for the attack of the EAM against the EDES the patriots are not responsible. It's not their fault. These people wanted to fight against the Germans. I would, like to stress the following point; that tho attack of the EAM against the ZERVAS group coincided with the attack of the German Edelweiss Division against Dzoumerka.
Q.- That'll do, witness.
A.- I would like to continue, Your Honor. The proof for all of this is contained in the telegrams between the British Mission in Greece and tho Middle East Headquarters, and also by the testimony and report given by Brigadier General Eddy, and by the radio broadcast by Field Marshal Wilson.
Q.- Now, witness; do you admit, therefore, that between ELAS and EAM there were differences?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: For him to admit it is a question of admission. He presumably has stated the fact. Shouldn't that conclude it?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I only wanted to clarify it; Your Honor; because the witness on Friday and Saturday said the contrary.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well; proceed.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q.- Witness, you were personal adviser of General Zervas, and you wore a uniform. What military rank did you holt?
A.- I was a simple guerilla.
Q.- What rank? There must have been rank in the military organization of Zervas?
A.- I told the Prosecution during the examination that in tho organiz ation of Zervas I was the man in charge of the press department.
Q.- Witness, you said on Saturday -- you answered a question by the defense counsel that you wore a uniform. You must, therefore, have hold a military rank. Which was it?
A.- I was a soldier.
Q.- That was the lowest rank then?
A.- Yes, quite so; absolutely.
Q.- Witness, in what matters did you advise General Zervas generally?
A.- I advised General Zervas on whatever matters had any relation with national politics and also with regard to the press part.
Q.- Then you can probably inform me of the following: What was the strength of the EDES in autumn 1943 on the Poloponnes?
A.- We had a personnel strength of between 300 and 400 men.
Q.- Who was the leader?
A.- That I don't remember, but they were subordinated to the British Missions orders.
Q.- Do you know, witness, that the EDES units on the Poloponnes, under Major Bretakos during fall 1943. were diminated by the EAM?
A. What the defense counsel said could not be correct because Rittmeister Bretakos never did belong to the organization of the EDES.
Q. Do you know anything, apart from the personality of Bretakos that the units were eliminated on the Peloponnes?
A. The EDES group had received an order from the British Mission to go into the mainland in order to avoid having clashes on the Peloponnes with the EAR. The order was executed and most of these men succeeded in getting into the Epiros area.
Q. You haven't answered my question, Witness.
A. You asked me if they had been destroyed, and I told you they were not destroyed because they received the order to withdraw.
Q. That doesn't exclude each of these two things, but I shall now come to something else. Witness, on Friday you said that General Zervas had in February 1945 returned from the Mountains to Athens. Why only in February 1945? When the only enemy, that is the Germans, had already left Greece in October.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to the question. The Witness testified that in February 1945 he, the witness, returned from the mountains to Athens, and he said nothing about General Zervas' returning to Athens.
DR. MUELLER - TORGOW: Your Honor, he said he together with General Zervas had returned from the mountains to Athens on that date, as far as I remember
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Witness will recall himself when that was his answer. The answer, in all probability, may be brief.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
A. In February 1945 I returned to Athens together with General Zervas because the national guerrilla groups had been demobilized according to a general order of the Greek Government. Those Guerrillas who were of age to serve in the Army remained, and they formed the Epiros Division.
That's all I have to say, and whatever else Mr. Defense Counsel is trying to implicate has nothing to do with my being here.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The question of his implication has no bearing upon the duties of the Tribunal. We will determine that matter. The Witness will answer if he has knowledge of the facts; otherwise without comment. Proceed.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q. Witness, the EAM units did not prevent the General to return from the mountains to Athens did they?
A. MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I don't see how this is at all relevant to either the direct examination or to any attempts to impeach the credibility of the Witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE : The Objection is sustained.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q. Witness, is it true that General Zervas is now Minister for Public Security in the present Greek Government of Maximos?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Witness, why was a Minister for Public Security erected in Greece?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I object to the question, Your Honor. I don't think it is within the scope of direct examination.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honor , this question is in immediate connection with the scope of the EDES and the EAM.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well, We'll take the answer briefly.
BY DR. MUELLER TORGOW:
A. This was not the first time it was established. It has existed since 1936.
Q. Could it not have been dissolved after the Germans had left, or was this situation insecure? If it was insecure, why?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I object to the question.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The objection is sustained.
BY DR. MUELLER TORGOW:
Q. Witness, the EAM simultaneously with the departure of the Germans---were they eliminated?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, I don't see the relevance of questions of this nature.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: We'll take the answer for what it may be worth.
BY DR. MUELLER TORGOW:
A. No, it was not dissolved.
Q. Why not?
A. The EAM had certain political aims which it wanted to attain.
Q. And ELAS?
A. The same thing.
Q. Witness, the ELAS is a military organization. It had certain political aims, as it was said before, and it was extremely left.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think the conclusion of counsel is perhaps not appropriate at this place. If you have a direct question, or cross-examination question, please frame it accordingly.
BY DR. MUELLER TORGOW:
Q. Witness, why, after the Germans left Greece, was the EAM not dissolved? That was the question which I put and which has not been answered yet.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, we are now beginning to get into the matters after the Germans left Greece, and the defense counsel is obviously trying to inject into this trial matters which are now going on in Greece. And I submit that they are not at all relevant, and they have nothing to do with the cross examination and the credibility of the Witness.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The objection is sustained.
DR. MUELLER TORGOW: In that case I have no further questions.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Is there further cross-examination? You may proceed, Mr. Fenstermacher .
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Witness, you testified on Saturday that you knew that General Lanz's groups furnished food to the Red Cross for the relief of the Greek people. Is that true?
A. Yes, there were such incidents.
Q. When?
A. That was around that period of time when the Germans were about ready to withdraw.
Q. And what date was that ?
A. That was around September 1944.)
Q. When did General Lanz ' troops come to the Epiros section of Greece?
A. Towards the end of June 1943 and General Lanz himself came in August 1943.
Q. Between August 1943 and September or October 1944, do you know of any other cases in which General Lanz' troops furnished food to the Red Cross for the relief of the Greek people?
A. No, I don't; but I can also explain why they did give food in September 1944.
4. Do you know why, Witness?
A. That was the time during which the Germans were about ready to withdraw, and at that time they tried to most anything to oblige the Greeks kindly and to stop them from making more attacks against them.
Q. Witness, I believe you also testified on Saturday that you knew that when General Lanz left Jannina, the capital of Epiros, that the mayor of Jannina. thanked General Lanz . Did you testify to that?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q The man who was mayor of Jannina at that time, where is he now?
A He is in Greece.
Q Is he a free citizen of Greece?
A Yes, he is.
Q. Is he mayor of Jannina today?
A That I don't know. I don't think so. But I could explain it to you why he thanked the Germans.
Q If you know, you may explain.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think he explained it in some detail on Friday or Saturday.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor, we may omit it.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, during what period of time from the information which you had at your disposal were most of tho villages in the Epiros section of Greece burned?
AAll the villages of the Epiros were burned during the period of time during which the Germans were in that area.
Q What period of time was that?
A From the 20th of June 1933 until the month of October 1944.
Q Did you over see any villages while they were actually burning, witness?
A Yes, I did, on three occasions.
Q They were villages which had been defended by EDES units?
A No, at no time.
Q Did the EDES troops ever execute retaliation measures?
A No.
Q Witness, did the burning of villages by German troops discontinue at any time as a result of differences which existed between EDES and ELAS units?
A I don't quite understand what you mean.
Q You testified that there were certain differences between EDES and ELAS units. My question is, were those differences at all relevant with respect to the methods of warfare, namely the burning of villages which the German troops employed?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Wouldn't that be pretty much of a conclusion? He may state the facts. The conclusions will be drawn from the facts. I think it is the responsibility of the Tribunal.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor, I will withdraw the question.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, when you returned to Athens in April 1941 from covering the Italian-German war, did you see German troops there?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you also see Italian troops?
A Yes, I did.
Q From your observation, were there more German troops than Italian troops in Athens?
DR. LATERNSER: I object. But in the this case, no facts are requested, but a judgment.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I believe I have asked the witness to state whatever he observed, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I am sorry. I received only a part of the objection of the defense counsel to this.
DR. LATERNSER: I would also like the defense counsel in this case to ask for facts. The prosecution counsel should ask for facts even in this case.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I assume the question is predicated on the fact that the answer will be an answer of facts.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: That is right, your Honor, based on whatever the witness observed.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
AAt that time in April 1941, Germans prevailing in number, and that continued until the time when they invaded Crete, rather when they had completed with the invasion and the operations in Crete and they started withdrawing towards the North and they were progressing towards the Russian front where they were supposed to strike quite soon.
Q Were German troops in Athens continually from April 1941 until October 1944?
A Yes, regardless of the period of time, there were Germans in there at all times. Sometimes there were more and sometimes there were less.
Q When did the Italians troops leave Athens?
A The Italians did not leave Greece. They were disarmed by the Germans in September, 1943.
Q Witness, were you a guerilla fighter and soldier as well as a journalist during the period of time to which you have testified? That is to say, from April 1941 until October 1944?
A Yes, that was the duty of every person that went up to the mountains.
Q Now, will you state again the sources of information for the testimony which you have given?
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Mr. Fenstermacher, pardon me for interrupting. My impression and that of my colleagues is that this matter has been quite fully covered.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor pleases, Dr. Laternser, it seems to me, has some doubt upon the sources of information which the witness had at his disposal in order to testify.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well, you may proceed.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
A First of all, it is my own experience, what I saw myself. Secondly, in my capacity as Zervas's adviser, personal adviser; and thirdly by the fact that all the documents of tho guerilla forces were in my hands and still are in my hands.
Then there was another fact, the fact that as the man in charge of the press tho official information came both to me and to the headquarters, not only the official information bu also the top secret information.
Q Did you also travel around in the combat areas and speak to troops of tho EDES organization?
A Yes, I did at all times.
Q Did you speak to the inhabitants of the villages in the combat area as well?
A Yes, indeed. Absolutely.
Q Witness, you testified that in November 1942, 98 EDES men attacked from 18 to 2,000 Italian troops. Was it customary for the EDES organization to attack the enemy, even though greatly outnumbered?
AAbsolutely. If the order was to carry out the operation, they did so. And there are certain other incidents where the difference of strength is even more drastic.
Q Did you also attack German forces even though outnumbered from 3 to 4 to 1? Or even more outnumbered than that?
A Yes, quite often, with the only exception that our losses then were much heavier.
Q Witness, you were also asked a few questions about the Evzones organization and their relationship with the EDES organization as it appeared from a document which was submitted, excerpts of which were read to you. What was the Evzones organization, witness?
DR. WEISGERBER: Objection. I object to this question. On Saturday I asked the same question and Dr. Fenstermacher objected then and he gave the reason that this was not in connection with the matter to be dealt with, and I think that this situation is still the same and therefore now I object.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I recall that Dr. Weisgerber later qualified the witness to speak on the matter and we then had quite a discussion on tho relation between the EDES and the EVzones organization.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Well, with that understanding, if defense counsel wishes to question him further, he may have the opportunity to do so. This is my personal opinion. I haven't conferred with my associates but that is my personal feeling about it. You may proceed.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: With your Honor's permission then, I will refer directly to the document which was read from by defense counsel on Saturday.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, I am reading now from Document NOKW-692, which is prosecution Exhibit, in evidence, 422. This is on page 114 of the English document book, and I believe on page 83 of the German document book. I should like to have your explanation, witness, about the excerpts from this document after I have read it to you. This is a report from the Military commander in Greece dated 19 November 1943, and one section of the document is as follows:
"Evzones, Greek War. They had continued to prove themselves during raids against Communists in Athens. The organization of an Evzones regiment in Athens with three battalions and that of one regiment in Patras with two battalions on the way. Cadres emanate between the two fine battalions which were already in existence.
"EDES company, Evia. As a trial, 100 EDES followers, nationalist band, were armed in return for the furnishing of hostages and under the leadership of the Prefect General Liakos they were committed from Chalkis. As yet, only minor successes against Communists."
Witness, do you know who General Liakos was?
DR. LATERNSER: Objection. This part of this document was not a matter of the cross-examination and it cannot be used now.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may take the answer.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: You may answer the question, witness.
Anagnostopoulos BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
A General Liakos had been appointed by the Quissling government in Chalkis as Prefect. This man couldn't possibly have anything to do with the guerilla bands observers. If Mr. Fenstermacher would be kind enough to tell me the date, I would appreciate it.
Q The document from which I am reading is a report from the Military Commander in Greece dated 19 November 1943.
A That way at a period of time, that is the 19th of November, 1943, at which Zervas's forces were fighting in the Tzoumerka and at which time the battle had reached its peak. Therefore, it is absolutely impossible to believe that while Zervas personally was facing a crisis and the battle was raging, he delegated certain troops to fight with the Germans.
Q Witness, did EDES troops from Zervas organization ever fight in conjunction with Evzones units?
A General Zervas had made an announcement to the Evzone groups telling them that in case they shouldn't dissolve -- I mean demobilize their groups, they would be considered traitors and as they did not dissolve their groups they were considered traitors, at least certain units.
Q Did EDES troops ever fight with Evzone units?
A No, never.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Now, if your Honors please, in the direct examination on Friday and Saturday, I completely neglected to ask the witness two or three questions which were not touched upon in cross-examination, and I should like your Honors' permission to go into that now. The questions and answers, together, should not take more than five minutes.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Witness, bearing in mind the sources of information to which you had access, do you know how EDES troops were treated when captured by the Germans? 2171
A From the moment when the Germans arrived in Epiros until May 1944, all the EDES members who were captured were executed, or most of them. Later on the Germans avoided to shoot them but there were still incidents where EDES members were shot. During the first period, the crimes which were committed against EDES member who were wounded and prisoners are horrible.
Q Witness, from the reports which you had access to during the period prior to May 1944, what percentage of EDES troops captured by the Germans were executed, if you know?
AAt least 70 per cent.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I have no further questions at this time but the photographs about which I spoke on Saturday that I should like to put to the witness, are in the process of being reproduced, and I should like -- I believe they will be ready tomorrow-- and I should like to put the witness on again simply for that purpose.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well.
MR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I should like to cross-examine the witness about some points which I have not been able to clarify yet.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Very well, you may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: And which only come to me now.
RECROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q Witness, you said just now that members of the EDES who became German prisoners were executed.
A Yes, that is correct, and I could even give you names.
Q Did you see such executions yourself--members of the EDES executed by Germans?
AAbsolutely. I saw their bodies,
Q I asked you whether you witnessed EDES members being shot by Germans?
A If I had been there, they would have shot me too.
Anagnostopoulos)
Q Well, who told you then?
A When we knew, for instance, that a wounded man, a man who had been wounded had been left in some home in a village and our armies withdrew from that village after the battle and the Germans moved in and we returned after a while and we went back to the house to find the wounded and we found him dead, killed in a horrible manner, then of course we knew that the Germans had done it.
Q I asked you, witness, who told you that he saw, himself, shootings of prisoners?
A Many of them did, many for instance who were present when the shooting occurred and for some strange reason or other, they escaped. Do you want any names, Mr. Defense Counsel? And dates also? All those things were reported detail by detail to the Middle East Headquarters.
Q But from your own knowledge, yon don't know anything about that? I mean from your own experience?
A Personally, I have seen the body of my friend, Lt. Galiatsos who had been killed by the Germans in a most horrible manner which not even the New Guinea inhabitants would have used. That was at Tetrakommon. One of the greatest heroes of this war was First Lieutenant Ballas, he was executed in the same manner together with 18 other prisoners, also wounded on the road between Boulgarelli and Neraidos and the monastery of Agyia Kyriaki which is also near Joannina which we had transformed into a hospital and all our heavily wounded men and the nurses were burned alive by the Germans inside the monastery, and even about that there is a personal information in the headquarters in the Middle East. I saw the monastery myself with the burned bodies in it.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this point, we will recess until 11:30.
(A recess was taken.)
Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the court room, will be seated.
THE PRESIDENT: Tribunal is again in session. You may proceed Dr. Laternser.
BY DR. LATERNSER: - RECROSS EXAMINATION
Q Witness, I would like you to answer this question with yes or no. Did you, yourself, see at any time that members of the EDES who were captured by the Germans were shot by the Germans. Did you over see that yourself. Yes or no.
A No, I said I didn't see that myself. I gave that answer before.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions.
INTERPRETER SIMHA: The witness informed me that he has a brief statement to make.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Mr. Fenstermacher?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I have no idea what the witness has in mind, your Honor.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I think you should confer with the witness to find out if it has anything to do with the proceeding.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Your Honor, I think we have covered the material already about which the witness wants to talk about.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: As an American Tribunal we seek to limit the witness' answers to interrogations either by the Prosecution or defense counsel. Are there any further questions?
Judge Wennersturm or Judge Carter, do you have any further questions?
Mr. Fenstermacher, I understand you wish to recall the witness for the purpose of identifying certain Court V Case VII Anagnostopoulos) documents or photographs.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: For curtain photographs and that's all.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: With that exception the witness may stand excused.
MR. DENNEY: Your Honors, please, may the Marshall be directed to summons the witness STEPHANOS PAPPAS.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The Marshall is directed to summons the witness STEPHANOS PAPPAS.
Stephanos Pappas, you may arise and be sworn.
Stephanos Pappas, I swear to speak the truth and only the truth in reply to whatever I am asked, without fear and without prejudice. (The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated. You may proceed Mr. Denney.
BY MR. DENNEY: - DIRECT EXAMINATION
Q What is your name?
A Stephanos Pappas.
Q Are there two or three Ps in your last name.
A Double P.
Q Then there are three Ps in your last name.
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Where were you born?
A In Kommeno of Arta.
Q In what region of Greece is that?
A In the Epiros area.
Q And is Kommeno spelled K-O-M-E-N-O?
A It is spelled K-O-M-M-E-N-O.
Q When were you born?
A I was born on the 14th of February 1903.
Q How much education did you have?
A I finished at the University of Athens. I studied Ancient Greek, Modern Greek and History.
Q And you received a degree from the University of Athens?
A Yes.
Q What is your occupation?
A I am the second manager or deputy manager of the college of Arta.
Q Do you have other duties other than the assistant director of the school?
A I have tasks in connection with teaching at the college.
Q What subjects do you teach?
A I said before Ancient History, Modern and ancient Greek.
Q How many pupils are there in this school?
A Last year we had 768 pupils.
Q And general what is the ago range of these pupils?
A The college consists of six classes, therefore the ages range from 13 to 20.
Q Are you married?
A Yes, I am.
Q Do you have any children?
A I have three children, one boy and two girls.
Q Where were you when the invasion of Greece started?
A I was in Arta.
Q Is that spelled. A-r-t-a?
A Yes, that is correct, A-r-t-a.
9 When did you leave Arta?
A I left at the end of 1942.
Q And where did you go?
A I went to Kommeno, K-o-m-m-e-n-o in Arta which is my home town.
Q What were you doing there at that time?
A I dealt with agricultural matters in order to be able to live, to earn my living.
Q Directing your attention now to the date 16 August 1943, where were you on that date?
A On the 16 August 1943 I was in Kommeno, because my home and my family and whatever else I had were in Kommeno. I said I was there as of 1942 continually.
Q Will you tell the court what happened on 16 August 1943?
A Yes, I will. The day before, on the 15th of August was the date on which the village is celebrating the religious feast of the Virgin. On the 12th of August, that is four days before the 16th of August, a car appeared containing three Germans and a driver, and the driver was also German. And in the small square of the village there were five guerilla soldiers. They were unknown to us and we didn't know why they were there. The moment the Germans saw the Guerillas and the moment the Guerillas saw the Germans the Guerillas left, and so did part of the population, and the Germans got back to their car and drove away in an unknown direction, -that is, they returned to the place where they had come from -- correction, that is rather than "unknown direction." Nothing else happened to the village.
Q Coming back to the 16 August 1943, will you tell me what happened, or tell the Tribunal?
A Very well. I said on the 15 August was the date when the feast was going on in the village.