Nobody could recognize them and an axe was lying close by.
Q. Witness, how many male persons were killed that day in Kalavrita?
A. 1,300 men from Kalavrita and about 140 foreigners, Greeks, merchants that had come to Kalavrita for buying supplies.
Q. Are there any survivors besides yourself of the male population of kalavrita?
A. Another 15 survived but two of them died because of their wounds; some 13 are still living.
Q. What was the age of the oldest inhabitant of Kalavrita who was killed that day?
A. The oldest man who was killed was the owner of the dispensary by the name of Estavius Makrijannis who was about 95 years old.
Q. How old was the youngest person who was killed that day?
A. Between 11 and 12 years of age.
Q. Did any family lose more than one person?
A. Many of them lost many. For Instance, a woman by the name of Athinae Nikolai lost seven of her children ranging from 16 to 40 years of age, and besides that her husband; and another woman by the name of Vassiliki Ferliki lost eight children ranging from the age of Id to 45, and her husband 90 years of age.
Q. How many of your relatives were killed, witness?
A. About 40, among them uncles and first cousins.
Q. And all the persons who were killed that day in Kalavrita were buried in the same place in Kalavrita?
A. No, not all of them could be buried in the cemetery because it didn't take them all, so we buried the greatest part of them at the cemetery and about 300 were buried at the place of the execution.
Q. How long did it take you to bury all the persons who were killed?
A. It took us seven days and even longer because we had to dig the graves with our fingers. We didn't have any instruments and then we had to watch the dogs who came and who dug out again the corpses and we had to bury them again so it took us oven longer than seven days to bury again those who had been dug out by the dogs.
Q. How are the widows of these men who were killed dressed today?
A. They are dressed in black and they will always be dressed in black and many of them, the oldest, are spending all their days at the cemetery at the graves.
Q. Witness, you stated that a monastery near Kalavrita was also burned?
A. Yes, there were even two monasteries that were burned. Aghia Lavra and there five monks were killed; and Megeaspilion where eighteen monks were pushed down from a high rock into a deep precipice.
Q Did you see either of these monasteries while they were burning?
A. Yes, I did. The monastery of Aghia Lavra-- I saw it burning myself because it is on a top that we can see like an amphitheater from Kalavrita and Legeaspilion I didn't see while it was burning but I could see the flames and after a few days I went there and saw that it was burned completely.
Q. Do you know what happened to the school house where the women and children were held after they had been separated from the men?
A. While the women were locked there in the school buil ding, the German soldiers put gasoline at the corners and began to light the gasoline. Then when the flames began to rise, the women, some of them, jumped out of the windows and throw their babies down and other succeeded to force the doors, so they came out with burning wounds and they chased the few guards that had remained there away. Those guards escaped because there were very few.
Q. Were there any German soldiers around after the shooting stopped and after the women had come to you?
A. No, there were no Go man soldiers left, The last one had just gone.
Q. On the same day when the shooting occurred, did you spend that night in the town of Kalavrita?
A. I remained in a house that was not entirely burned down, as I was wounded. They had brought mo there, the women and the other population stayed outside between the ruins and it began to snow; it was very cold; so they wore freezing outside and stayed there among the smoking ruins.
Q. How many days after the shooting occurred was it before help was brought to you?
A. Four days. First of all came a Major from the British Commandos then a representative of the Red Cross.
Q. Did any German investigators or Germans asking questions over come to the village of Kalavrita and ask you what had happened?
A. No German came. The only persons who came was the representative of the led Cross, the International Red Cross.
Q. Didn't some German soldiers come a few days after the shootings occurred? I believe you said a month or a month and a half after the shootings occurred?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did they ever inquire about the events that occurred on the 13th of December 1943?
A. No, they did not, because they would have examined me and asked questions of me, who was the mayor, and they aid not. They avoided very carefully to mention the whole matter.
Q. When were you elected mayor of Kalavrita?
A. Before the massacre I was the councilor of the community and after the massacre had occurred on the 19th of December I was elected Mayor, after an appointment of the ministry of Interior in Athens.
Q. Did you ever have occasion to make a tour of the area surrounding the town of Kalavrita after the events of the 13th of December?
A. After one month approximately, I visited the two most close villages, Kerreni and Rogoi, and I found that both these villages had been burned just the same and 115 persons had been slaughtered at Rogoi and 30 at Kerpeni.
Q. Did you over see any other villages burning besides the village of Kalavrita?
A. Yes, another 12 villages and two monasteries.
Q. How many villages did you yourself actually see while they were burning?
A. Personally I saw burning the two monasteries and the villages of Visoka, Kerpeni and Rogoi, and the two monasteries.
Q. Did you ever write out pensions for the widows for the men who wore killed in Kalavrita?
A. Yes, I did, and especially for Kalavrita I wrote out 545 pensions. For the village of Rogoi 115; and for Kerpeni 32.
A, Did you write out a pension for each person killed in Kalavrita or for each family killed in Kalavrita?
A. No, I only wrote out one pension, which means for the head of the family, and the other members get some more; the widow gets some more for every child that has been killed, a certain analogy.
Q. At the time when the shooting took place on the 13 December 1943 did you hear that this shooting or burning of Kalavrita was in retaliation for the death of German soldiers?
A. NO.
Q. Were any Greek partisans ever stationed in Kalavrita?
A. No, they were not stationed.
Q. Were German troops stationed in Kalavrita?
A. No, Italian troops were stationed; the German troops were just transient troops.
Q. Then did the Italian troops leave Kalavrita?
A. Just after the capitulation; I think about the middle of September. I just was there at the time of the Italian capitulation; they were supposed to join the British Commandos, but before they could give their agreement the German troops came in and disarmed them and took them away as prisoners of war.
Q. Did yon ever hear that Greek Partisan units were operating in the vicinity of Kalavrita prior to 13 December 1943?
A. There were some in that vicinity. I want to correct myself, no Guerillas, but members of the regular Greek Army serving under the British Commandos.
Q. About how far away from Kalavrita were those units operating?
A. About 30 or 28 Kilometers away.
Q. Did you ever hear about a battle fought between these Greek units under the British Commands and German troops?
A. Yes, I heard about such a battle.
Q. When did you hear that the battle took place?
A. In September: I don't remember the exact date.
Q. Did you hear that German prisoners were captured in that battle?
A. Yes, I even saw them. They passed through Kalavrita. There were 78. They stayed one night in Kalavrita. We fed them and took care of them.
Q. When was that?
A. Now, it was in September; I can't remember the exact date because after all there were many events and I can't remember the date exactly.
Q. Do you believe it was September when the German prisoners passed through Kalavrita?
A. Yes, I believe so.
Q. Could it have been later or earlier or aren't you sure?
A. It may be a little earlier or it may be a little later because I didn't keep exactly these dates.
Q. But you remember seeing the prisoners and feeding them?
A. Yes, that I remember very well. They stayed there one night.
Q. How do you know there were 78 of them?
A. Yes, I was told by the Greeks that they had captured 78 German soldiers.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Major Sfakianos, a major of the regular Greek Army.
Q. Do you remember when he told you that?
A. Just the same day when they were brought in after the battle into Kalavrita.
Q.- Did tho major tell you anything else beside the number of prisoners they had captured?
A.- Yes, he told me a few days later that he had received a letter from the German colonel of Capras, that he should return the prisoners, He answered, the German colonel of Capras, that they wore regular Greek Army under the command of General Milson, the Commander of the middle East, and ho answered, in addition to that he answered the German colonel that he would treat the prisoners according to the laws and rights of the prisoners of war.
Q.- Was the major of whom you spoke a resident of Kalavrita?
A.- No, he was from Crete. He was the permanent officer of the Greek Army.
Q.- Were you, witness, in December 1943 a member of any Greek partisan organization?
A.- I was a Liaison man between the Greeks and the British commander between all the Greek patriots and the British Commanders.
Q.- Did you have a gun?
A.- No, I did not.
Q.- Did you have ammunition in your house?
A.- No, I did not have ammunition.
Q.- Do you remember whether there were any explosions during the burning of Kalavrita?
A.- No, no explosions took place.
MR FENSTERMACHER: I have no further questions, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. LATERNSER:Q.- Witness, you just said that this battle in September 1943 at Kalavrita, 78 prisoners were made?
A.- Yes.
Q.- How long have you been in Nurnberg now?
A.- 9 days.
Q.- Who did you talk to in Nurnberg about your statement of today?
A.- With the delegation with whom together I came, the Greek representatives and with the Prosecutors.
Q.- The Prosecution? Who to?
A.- With the Prosecutor who just now investigated me.
Q.- Did you also talk to him about the 78 prisoners that have been made in kalavrita?
A.- Yes.
Q.- And on this occasion did you hear for the first time that at Kalavrita 78 prisoners were made?
A.- I know that from personal knowledge before.
Q.- Who mentioned the figure 78 at this discussion, you or the Prosecutor. Just a moment, witness, before you answer. You must know that I can check up on your statement.
A.- That I do not remember exactly who first mentioned this number.
Q.- You cannot maintain that you mentioned the figure first?
A.- I know very well the prisoners because we were there when they came through kalavrita when they were fed and they were taken even care of by the doctors and of the people that gave them medicines.
Q.- Before you came to Nurnberg did you make any notes about your prospective statements?
A.- No, not at all. Just the same description gave four or fivo days after the massacre occurred to the American and English correspondents who came and asked me about it.
Q.- Did you tell them something about this 78 prisoners?
A.- most certainly, I did.
Q.- Has that been written down or noted?
A.- Yes.
Q.- How do you know? Did you read the records or did you sign it?
A.- I got the papers back from London and New York and I regret very much that I didn't bring them along.
Q.- Have you really no copies with you?
A.- I would like to tell the defense counsel that I have lived in this death moments for hours. I am a survivor from a terrible tragedy. I did not come hero to do any harm to anybody but only to tell the truth and let the truth shine brightly.
Q.- And in order to state that, to make it absolutely certain, I am asking you, witness for the truth. witness, I am asking you where can I find a copy of the records of the statements made by you sometime ago?
A.- The President of the Swedish Red Cross is in possession of a copy of my first statement by the name of Aleas Stretch.
Q.- When was this statement made by you?
A.- Five days after the massacre occurred, that is to say. on the 18th of December 1943.
Q.- Do you want to swear your mention of this statement is the figure 78?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Is there a copy of year statement at the time in the rooms of the Greek Delegation here?
A.- That I am not in a position to know.
Q.- Furthermore you stated, witness, that units who took part in this battle, the collaborators with the Germans, came under the commanding officer Middle East. How is it that you know this?
A.- I want to correct something. Not the battle of Kalavrita out the battle of kerpeni, in the woods of Kerpeni, not Kalavrita. It was not the battle of kalavrita.
A.- Yes, that is correct. There were units of the regular Greek Army under the Command of General Wilson of the Middle Mast and they were being supplied by the British with weapons, uniforms and ammunition, that were dropped by parachutists.
Q.- Since you are in Nurnberg, have you spoken of this to the prosecutors?
A.- No, I did not especially mention that part.
Q.- You want to tell me, witness, that you were not told that the units came under the command of the Middle Mast Commanding officer?
A.- I want to let you know, Mr. Defense Counsel, that I don't want you to doubt my credibility. I have escaped from death and I am responsible, not only towards God; I am testifying as a Greek who knows what he owes to his Greek origin and tradition.
Q.- And, therefore, I am asking you, witness -- you haven't answered my question -- do you really want to tell me that you were not told since you arrived in Nurnberg that these units came under the command of the Middle Mast Commanding Officer of the Middle East, yes or no?
A.- No, no, no.
Q.- And no documents have been shown to you, witness?
A.- No, but I want to tell you again that I myself was a liaison man between the Greeks and the British commanders and knew that broadcasting took place and messages were sent regularly to the Middle Mast. I know it from my personal activities.
Q.- I asked you, witness, and you have evaded my question, whether you were told, whether you were shewn document here in Nurnberg, about the Kalavrita case or not.
A.- No.
Q.- Witness, you said after the Germans had evacuated the area the funerals of the dead took place?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Who buried the dead?
A.- The women and the small children and some of the old men who had remained.
Q.- Did you also help?
A.- I was a wounded man and could not do it at that time.
Q.- How many women did there remain in the village?
A.- All the women had remained.
Q.- How many were there approximately?
A.- Between 1,300 and 1,500. We have also small children to count.
Q.- And you said just then that you wore digging the graves with your hands. Is that true?
A.- Yes, that is correct, because we had to do it with the hands as we didn't have any instruments to do it with and, besides that, we took out of the burned houses some iron bars and whatever could help us in doing this job.
Q.- You said just then "We did that." Did you help, therefore?
A.- That is the manner of saying. Naturally, I could not help as I was a wounded man.
Q.- How long did it take those women to dig these graves?
A.- Seven days and a half and some more' because, in the meantime dogs were there and dug them out so we had to bury them again, I want to correct myself -- foxes and dogs went there.
Q.- Witness, hots many school children were there approximately in Kalavrita, that is, children who went to school?
A.- 345, because I am a member of the school committee, I know it.
Q.- How many school rooms did the school contain approximately?
A.- You mean now?
Q.- Yes, -- no, at that time, of course.
A.- Six classrooms, Q.- That is sort of a medium sized building, isn't it?
What does it look like approximately?
A.- About six times this room here, as long as six times this room.
Q.- And then, of course, there was a courtyard, I assume? How big was that?
A.- Very big courtyard with flowers and much bigger than the school -- with trees and flowers and much bigger than the school itself.
Q.- What was the size of the courtyard, about throe or four times the size of this room?
A.- To give you an idea, it is about two times as big as the square in front of the Grand Hotel in Nurnberg.
Q.- That is, the courtyard is about twice the size of the open space in front of the Grand Hotel?
A.- This is a courtyard and at the same time a garden which surrounds the school building and is as big as I told you.
Q.- Do you happen to have photographs or pictures of this village?
A.- Yes, I had them but, unfortunately, I didn't bring them along, together with the trousers with it that I wanted to bring along, which I wore at the time I was executed and which sowed the bullets. I had taken many pictures but I didn't bring them along.
Q.- You said, witness, there were six rooms in this school house?
A.- Yes, that is correct.
Q.- How many women and children were there in Kalavrita in December 1943?
A.- About 2,600. I cannot give you exact figures.
Q.- Now, you said, witness, that all women and children were locked into the school house. Do you want to tell me that 2,600 women and children wore housed, were put into these six rooms?
A.- There wore. I really told you this and I mean it because if you have an idea how the sardines are put together in a tin you would get an idea how these people were crowded and jammed together.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our afternoon recess now.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1520 hours.
(A recess was taken.)
Q. Witness, how large is a classroom in the school of Kalavrita?
A. It is narrower than this room by about 2 meters and longer than this room about 3 meters.
Q. Is the usual schoolroom in that schoolhouse larger or smaller than this room?
A. I consider it bigger than this room, - larger.
Q. Much larger than this room?
A. About three meters longer than this room.
Q. I have already asked you how many school children were regularly in attendance at Kalavrita?
A. 350 as I said before.
Q. And how many classrooms did the school usually have?
A. Five.
INTERPRETER LEA: That is not classrooms; it is classes.
BY DR. LATERNSER, (continuing)
Q. You then said before that, in this schoolhouse on that day, I believe it was the 9th of December, -- no on the 13th of December, 2,600 women and children were locked in ?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. How many persons had to be in each room - approximately?
A. About 400 persons. It is very simple to figure it out people were standing also in the corridors.
Q. And you mean to say that in every one of these rooms, that 400 persons fit into those school rooms?
A. Yes, I repeat it, and I insist upon that, and I saw it personally.
Q. I have already asked you before, do you have any pictures with you of Kalavrita, -- here in Nurnberg?
A. As I told you already before, I had pictures, but I left them in Athens. I do not have them here. I will have them sent to the Tribunal as soon as I arrive back in Athens.
Q. Then will you also include pictures of the school? Will you please?
A. Most certainly.
Q. Witness, you said that the Germans took -- collected a lot of cattle and drove them away.
A. Yes, I did, especially this cattle had been collected from the various villages around Kalavrita, and had been gathered in the fields and plains of Kalavrita, and were then driven away. There were a great number of cattle.
Q. How were they carried off, on trucks, or were they just driven away, as it was?
A. They drove away the big cattle, and the chickens and the ducks and the geese they loaded them on, - they sent them by railway and cars, and sent them away after they had loaded them on freight cars.
Q. But most of she castle, they loaded most of them on trucks; is that correct?
A. I did not speak about trucks; on the trucks wore loaded the stems that had been looted from the stores; the other items, the geese and the ducks and the chickens had been loaded on freight cars and were sent away, and the cattle were driven away on the highways loading to Patras, Corinthos and Aegion.
Q. Witness, but you just said that all of the cattle were driven together near Kalavrita; is that right?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And where were they gathered together? There was this place to which the cattle were driven?
A. It was just a plain that begins after the town of Kalavrita, in the fields and vineyards and so on, just in the plain that begun after the last part of the town.
Q. And how large is this place where the cattle were collected?
A. The plain of Kalavrita, to give you a picture, is about 25,000 square meters. Now exactly how big the place was whore the cattle were gathered together, I couldn't tell you, but it was a big place, because the plain has very big extensions. It could be that they were gathered without any disturbance, because the plain was Dig enough.
Q. How do you know there were 30,000 head of cattle?
A. That is very easy to find out because the various cultivators and farmers that had to bring the cattle in, knew about how many head every man had brought in, and so it was very easy to be sure about the figures.
Q. Who determined that figure?
A. We did not give you just an exact figure. I mean that largely I estimated the figure personally, because 14 villages had to contribute, and every person told me that they had so many head of cattle.
G. But how do you get the figure 30,000?
A. Because this is the approximate figure, that I know exactly well from the farmers who had brought in the cattle. It is an approximate figure that I give you. It could be even more than that.
Q. Witness, you said that during the shootings at Kalavrita, 40 of your relatives were killed. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Please enumerate these 40 relatives for me?
A. Yes, I will.
Q. Always give the name and the degree of relationship.
a. Hagolnis, and the first name, Spyridon, mother.
Q. You just have to give one name, and the degree of relationship. Just one name is sufficient.
A. Karakassis, a first cousin of mine;
Kamberos, a first cousin of mine, a lawyer;
Gatsos, a first cousin of mine.
Q. This is No. 4, what about five?
A. Yes, I am very willing to continue. Refer, a second cousin of mine. His brother, Alekos Fefes, also a second cousin of mine.
Pagonis, a first cousin of mine, and his brother, Alekos, Pagonis, also a first cousin of mine.
Q. How many have we got now? It is 6 isn't it. No. 7 please.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I believe we are now through No. 8, Your Honor.
BY Dr. LATERNSER:
Q. No. 8 please. Please list the 8th relative.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: I think he has already given 8. The next number is 9 your Honors.
BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q. We will calculate it afterwards. No. 9 for all I care. Give me No. 9.
A. Dimitrios Beskos a 2nd cousin of mine.
Q. No. 10?
A. His father, Christos Beskos, my uncle.
Q. No. 11?
A. Philipos Philippakopoulos, and his two sons by the names of Joanis and Andreas.
Q. What degree of relationship?
A. Second cousins, and their father, my uncle.
Q. Next.
A. Alkibiades Konstantopoulos, and Athmasius Kappis, first cousin.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Dr. Laternser, may I inquire whether these questions are for the purpose of tasting the credibility of the witness?
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, your Honor, but the critical point is to come as yet. I don't know, but I would like to find out.
Q. We have 14 now; how about 15?
A. You must know that I can even reach the number of hundreds, because I have many persons for whom I have been best man, or have been baptizing their children, and in Greece this means relationship. These are holy relations, and these persons are connected with us through relationship.
Q. By relationship -- don't you mean blood relationship?
A. You must know the Greek custom, that if my father has baptized a child, I am considered as his brother, but I can tell you many blood relatives as well.
Q. To which number had we gotten?
A. I do not remember because I did not count them.
Q. Witness, you testified that 40 of your relatives were killed. If you use the word, "relations" or "relatives" you meant of course that these are blood relatives. Do you wish to change your testimony so far as that point is concerned?
A. I shall continue so far I told you about relatives by blood. I can go on. telling you about them, but I can go as high as 80, - but I also considered, as I told you before, the persons that have relationship by marriage or by baptism in just the same manner.
Q. Witness, I ask you now, when you mentioned the number, "forty" of those who had been killed of your family, were all of those blood relatives or relatives as far as your interpretation goes?
A. I did not mean only relatives from blood, but also the others that we, in Greece, consider as relatives.
Q. Witness, in your testimony, have you any other reservations or any other interpretations?
A. No.
DR LATERNSER: I have no further questions, your Honors.