A. He has, of course, signed orders himself, but everybody who received that order knew that they were orders which were at least consented to by the Commander in Chief.
MR. DENNEY: No further questions.
JUDGE BURKE: Are there any further questions on behalf of the defense?
It has been indicated that there is no further demand for cross examination. The witness may be excused in accordance with the practice heretofore prescribed by the Tribunal.
(Witness excused)
You may proceed.
DR. LATERNSER: Your Honor, I ask for permission for Field Marshall von Weicks to be excused this afternoon and tomorrow during the day from the sessions?
JUDGE BURKE: Permission will be granted for him to absent himself for the time indicated.
DR. MENZEL: (Dr. Menzel for the defendant General Kuntze).
I am calling the defendant General Kuntze to the witness stand.
WALTER KUNTZE, a defendant took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE BURKE: Witness, raise your right hand please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
(The witness repeated the oath).
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MENZEL:
Q. Witness, please tell first of all to the Tribunal your full name?
A. Walter Kuntze.
Q. What was your last rank in the Army?
A. General of the Pioneers.
Q. When were you born?
A. On February 23, 1883.
Q. And where were you born?
A. Gretherbe. I will spell it, G-r-e-th-e-rb-e, near Brandenburg.
Q. What is your religion?
A. Protestant.
Q. What was your father?
A. Mayor.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes, I am married.
Q. Do you have children?
A. I have one son.
Q. All right, will you tell us something about your education?
A. After I had finished elementary school I visited High School up to Obersekunda, then I had some practical training in a machine factory. After I had finished that I visited a private preparatory institute in Berlin in order to pass matriculation in Berlin.
Q. And when did you make matric?
A. In 1902.
Q. And how did your professional career develop after that?
A. While I made further studies in high school I decided not to become an engineer, as I had previously planned, but instead to become an active officer in the Pioneer Corps.
Q. Then when did you enter the Army?
A. In the spring of 1902.
Q. How did your military training develop up to the beginning of the First World War?
A. To begin with I was Fahnenjunker, then ensign, then I visited an officer candidate school. In 1903 I became an officer, and as a second respectively First Lieutenant I was employed in the Pioneer Battalion 516 and 9, and that up to the outbread of the First World War. During this time I was commanded to the Artillery and Engineers School, and from 1905 to 1907, and from 1911 to 1914 I was at the War Academy.
Q. And where was this War Academy?
A. In Berlin.
Q. What service did you do in the First World War?
A. I came to the Front as a Company Leader. Then on 15 November 1914 I was wounded, and after my recovery, at about the end of the spring of 1915, I was commanded to the General Staff, and during the course of 1915 I was permanently assigned to the General Staff, and there I worked up to the end of the War.
I worked in different General Staff positions, and as of 1917 I worked with two divisions which were employed at the Front.
Q. Did you participate in any combat during the First World War?
A. Yes, quite a bit on the Front as Company Leader in Eastern Prussia in the Weichsel bend, I was wounded there and came to the West to Verdun, and I was in Flanders and also in Romania at the end.
Q. During the First World War did you receive any decorations?
A. Yes, I received the Iron Cross, 1st and 2nd Class, and the House Order of Hohenzollern with Swords, and other decorations.
Q. What did you do now when the First World War was over?
A. After the First World War I remained a soldier without any interruption.
Q. And where were you employed then?
A. At first I worked in the Reich War Ministry, up to the year 1923, as an expert, then I was Chief of a Company in Kuestrin with the Pioneer Corps III, that was from 1923 to 1925, and from 1925 to 1928 I worked in the Kommandantura, and in 1928 I became Commander of Group I in Kuestrin, and remained that until 1930. From 1930 to 1932 I was Chief of Staff for the inspection of the Pioneer Fortress. From 1932 to 1934 I was high pioneer officer in the staff of the Pioneer Command I. In 1935 I became Commander of the 6th Division in Bielefeld, which was then newly created and remained in this position until February 5, 1938. As of that day I was appointed commander of the Command Staff Kaiserslautern, with the task to build the West Wall and to carry this out. This position was in the same year extended to the effect that the newly created volunteer troops were subordinated to this Staff, which for this purpose was changed into a higher corps command.
This higher corps command was designated as Corps Command of the Frontier Troops Saar-Palatinate. These higher Corps Frontier troops of Palatinate, also in 1938 the command staff was changed to Higher Troop Command Saar-Palatinate, and this higher Troop Command, at the outbreak of the Second World War, received the number 24.
Q. Now, when the Second World War broke out how were you employed after that?
A. The Higher Corps Command 24 had to begin with this sector of the West Wall. I myself in February 1940 was appointed commanding general of a newly established higher Troop Command 42. This troop command was employed in the campaign against France, that is in the second sector, in June, at the Front. We were fighting from the 6th of June 1940 from Chemin de Dames, up to the Luettich/Laon in the District of Toul, and after the conclusion of these combats the higher Troop Command, which up to then had been subordinate to the 9th Army, was rotated to the 16th Army for one month, that is for the month of July, and was employed at the channel coast, between Termenzen and Cape Gris Nex. After that the troop command was withdrawn to Charlesville, where it remained until the beginning of June 1941. It was at that time my task to train this division, which was stationed in France behind the Charleville line, and to help this country which was void of all population, as far as the army was able to do so, that is to help them rebuild their agriculture, etc. In June 1941 the troop command came to the East, that is to East Prussia, and that was quite late, as far as I remember somewhere around the 10th or 11th of June. I received the Commission to fill the gap with three divisions, that is the gap on the left wing of the 4th Army. That was somewhere near Lomza/Suwalle, and between the right wing of the 9th Army, and this troop headquarters was subordinate to the 9th Army.
JUDGE BURKE: We will take our usual recess at this time.
(Thereupon a short recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
JUDGE BURKE: The Tribunal is prepared to announce the decision with respect to the application for the continuance for the reasons stated by Dr. Laternser and Dr. Sauter. The Tribunal, beginning with Saturday of this week, will stand in recess for the full period of the following week, for the purposes requested by defense counsel. The application of Dr. Sauter to visit Greece will be respectfully denied.
The Presiding Judge wishes to make an announcement with reference to the documents.
JUDGE WENNERSTRUM: With reference to the documents which the defense counsel necessarily will have to prepare and submit: I think it shall be called to the attention of these counsel that these documents should be submitted to the Defense Center and the proper authorities at an early date and in order that there should be no question as to their being submitted in time the Tribunal feels that they should be prepared and be ready for submission by the time of the reconvening of the Tribunal, after our week's adjournment. We do not want any delay at some later time because the documents are not in.
Mr. Marshall, in coming into the room, I observed that the air was not very good. It is rather close in here. Can we have some better ventilation? Care should be taken that it doesn't blow on the defendants. It seems rather close in here to me. You may proceed. Dr. Menzel. If the air should blow on the men and you should feel cold, why let us know and we will try to make some other arrangements.
BY DR. MENZEL:
Q. Witness, we had stopped at your activities during the last World War. Will you please continue.
A. The second world war when employed in the gap between the 9th and 4th Army, the Corps Headquarters had the task of protecting the left flank of the 9th Army, where there were strong Russian forces in the area of Bialystok, and possibly take the fortress away from the Soviets, which actually happened during the combat actions.
After the Fortress had been taken away from the Soviets, the Corps Headquarters was withdrawn from the front and let to begin with, the Reserves of the 16th Army. In July, I remember, about the first half of July, the Corps Headquarters was transferred to Estonia and was there subordinated to the 18th Army; at first a purely defensive task. When the operation started, the 18th Army had to reach the coast east of Reval and to cover the attacking Russian forces in the Re Reval area. This purely defensive action was then changed into an offensive one, and we tried to take Reval away from the Russians and subsequently to take away from them also the Baltic islands of Moon, Oesel, and Dagoe. Moon was taken away from them during the middle of September and subsequently in the beginning of October the island Oesel as well. When the attack against Dagoe had been prepared, the Corps Headquarters suddenly received the commission to take charge and to go to Riga and from there to Roumania. That took from about 6 to 20 of October by rail. We left the train somewhere near Ticina and there received the order to march on Nikolajev and were then about to be employed against the Crimea. I myself received in Nikolajev the order to come immediately to the Fuehere's headquarters where, as far as I remember, I arrived in the evening of 22nd October.
Q. When you came to the Fuehrer Headquarters, who did you report to?
A. I had to report to Hitler, and then I further reported to the Commander in Chief of the Army, Field Marshal von Brauchitsch and to General Keitel. I may add here that the Chief of the OKW, Field Marshal Keitel, was not present.
Q. Did you know Hitler prior to that?
A. I knew Hitler from his visits to the West Wall.
Q. What time was that?
A. That was during the building up of the West Wall during the years 1938 and 1939.
Q. When in October 1941 you came to the Fuehrer Headquarters and talked to Hitler, what did he tell you at that time?
A. To begin with he gave me the order to report to him about my experiences of the fighting for the Baltic islands which was something completely new, and that took a considerable time. He showed great interest in the cooperation between the Army and the Navy and of these two Wermacht parts with the Air force, and he put several questions to me regarding this cooperation and at the end he told me quite briefly, that I was going to the Balkans now and should represent Field Marshall List there.
Q Did he tell you something else about your work in the Balkans?
A Yes, he said that he was mainly interested in the fact that on the Balkans law and order should be maintained, and that for two reasons. First of all the Balkans were located in the deep right flank of the army which was stationed in the east, and besides the Balkans played an important part with regard to the fighting in Africa which not yet decided, so that the Balkans in any case had to remain in German and Italian hands, so that the danger could not arise, as it had arisen during the years 1917-1918, and led to the collapse of the front.
Q Did Hitler tell you at that time what kind of measures should be taken against unrest, etc?
A He said that unrest had arisen in Serbia which had developed increasingly, and this unrest could be traced back to activities of Moscow, and that it was most important to eliminate, as quickly as possible, the causes of this unrest, and that for this purpose, bands, as unrest instigators had to be attacked and destroyed, and he emphasized that this unrest took place in Serbia, and he condemned them all the more as he said he had confidence in the Serbs, whereas in Greece, apart from small sabotage, incidents, there was absolute peace.
Q According to this commission did you have the task to fight these unrests immediately?
A No, the Plenipotentiary Commanding General in Serbia was responsible for that.
JUDGE BURKE: Please advise the witness to hesitate a moment after the question is propounded so that the interpreter may translate it before he starts his answer.
DR. MENZEL: Please, General Kuntze, after my question, do not answer right away, but wait a minute that my question can be finished in translation.
BY DR. MENZEL:
Q Now, did Hitler give you exact details about these measures on the Balkans, or did he tell you to take this up with somebody else?
A Since time was short, he told me to take it up with Field Marshal Keitel, Chief of the OKW, who was in Berlin, and whom I had to visit there.
Q Whom did you go to see first of all?
A I wont to see Field Marshal von Brauchitsch, as Commander in Chief of the Army.
Q What did von Brauchitsch tell you?
A Von Brauchitsch told me about the situation approximately the same as Hitler had already told me. His statements too, showed the worry which he had in case the situation in the Balkans should by any chance, change decisively, and he further added that the Armed Forces Commander Southeast was not subordinate to him, but directly to Hitler. But the Armed Forces Commander Southeast was not to forget, ever this task, the task of the Commander in Chief of the 12th Army. Since I did not understand that remark, and since I could not understand that remark, he said smilingly, "Well, I have to make sure that those troops which are to come now to the eastern front from the Balkan area, can be freed as soon as possible", by which meant the transport of the 5th Mountain Division from Crete, which was intended for the extreme north.
Q Were other troops promised to you as substitute?
AAs I see from the documents now, troops had already been sent by Field Marshal List, and besides, I believe that, Brauchitsch and perhaps even Hitler talked about reinforcements, which were about to go there, or had already gotten there.
Q Did you then talk to the Chief of the Army Personnel office?
A Yes. I was of course, interested in the question as to what was to happen to me, whether I could count on remaining in the Balkans, or what else was to happen to me, because after all, I was one of the eldest commanding generals there.
Keitel told me that my task in the Balkans was only a temporary one, to deputize for Field Marshal List, and it would probably not last longer than 4 to 6 weeks.
Q Who told you that?
A The Chief of the Army Personnel office.
Q Then did you go to Keitel?
A Yes, then I went to Keitel and I arrived in Berlin on the same evening, that was the 23rd of October, and Keitel repeated roughly what the situation was, the same way as Hitler had briefly described it, and then he talked to me about the tasks of the Armed Forces Commander Southeast, and of the Commander in Chief of the 12th Army.
Q According to what you were told, were your tasks purely connected with the occupation, or were they of an administrative nature, regarding the possibility of an invasion?
A No. as I have already stated, the description of the situation was the same as the one which I had given before; the main task of the Armed Forces Commander Southeast, was not locally restricted, and not an administrative task; it was a tactical, strategical task. I actually had two fronts; indirectly, there was the eastern front and the Mediterranean, and Keitel added that in view of the not yet clarified situation in Africa, it was important to develop the Island of Crete, and to lay in stock, because the Island of Crete was the main base for the operational air warfare in the eastern Mediterranean.
In the same way he emphasized the importance of a quick restoration of law and order in the Yugoslavian area.
Q You said before that you regarded your commission of a tactical, strategical nature?
A Yes, I repeat that the important thing was that the Balkans remained in German hands, and that the preparedness for defense of the Balkan area was at any time guaranteed.
Q Did you also receive from one of these authorities which you have just quoted, a commission of a political nature?
A No, I did not receive a commission of a political nature, and I cannot possibly think that a general from the front would have been withdrawn for such a commission of all people.
Q You want to say by this, that you did not consider yourself suitable?
A Yes, I considered myself unsuitable because I never occupied myself with such matters.
Q Well now, another question. When you received these commissions, was there ever any talk that the population was to be decimated or that the economy in the Balkans was to be destroyed?
A No, Keitel especially emphasized that a quick, pacification in Serbia was in our interests, and in the interests of the population. For the one reason alone, that economy between Yugoslavia and Germany which already before the war was in close contact was put in order again.
Q Did Keitel tell you anything about a Special Staff Rosenberg?
A No.
Q When did you hear for the first time of this Staff?
A I heard for the first time here about the Special Staff Rosenberg.
Q Do you remember from the documents the letter from Rosenberg to Boohma?
A I read, it.
Q When did you read it for the first time?
A I cannot say for sure; that must have been for the first time when I came here.
Q Then here is when you first read the document?
A Yes, here when I read the documents.
Q From what time does that letter date?
A I cannot remember that. I only read it through very quickly, because it did not interest me and it did not concern me, and so I cannot remember any details.
Q I will now submit to you this document, it is exhibit 4-B, in Document Book 1, English page 8, and German text, page 6. Does this letter concern your time of office?
A No. The letter is dated the 23rd of April, 1941.
Q Did it at any time reach the Wehrmacht Commander Southeast?
A No, it is impossible that a purely private letter reached the Wehrmacht Commanded Southeast.
PRESIDENT WENNERSTRUM: Will we need the document books form now on? Will you be referring to them in your examination?
DR. MENZEL: Yes, not at the moment, but later on, to a large extent.
BY DR. MENZEL:
Q Where did you go when you had finished with this reporting to Keitel, etc?
A I then went to Kaiserslautern where I had been stationed in peace time, when I had been or leave for a day, to search for some of my things, and then to Belgrade.
Q When did you arrive in Belgrade?
A So far as I remember, on the 25th or 26th of October, in the late afternoon.
Q From whom did you first seek information?
A From the airport I went immediately to the Plenipotentiary Commanding General, in order to get information about the situation from him.
Q And who was that?
A That was General Boehme.
Q How did he describe the situation to you?
A He said roughly this, about the situation: "The unrest in Yugoslavia, and especially in the old Serbian area, but also in the Italian occupied territory, in Dalmatia and Montenegro, had started approximately in the second half of June, and even before that isolated acts of sabotage had occurred. One could only, as of the beginning of the campaign against Russia, talk about real unrest. This unrest had then expanded continuously, and had gathered in strength, mainly in the manner that the rear communications were systematically interrupted, railway tracks were the main target, and communication installations and highways as well.
Surprise attacks on isolated members of the Wehrmacht were currently carried out, as for instance guards, on isolated posts, couriers, and signal troops, supply transports, individual field guards had also been attacked, who up to then had been dispersed all over the country in small garrisons, and through these activities they were partly cut off.
The population partly participated; partly, however, it suffered under the terror measures of the bands, and therefore rejected the bands. He stated that the partisans recruited ruthlessly, that the partisans got money and food for themselves through attacks, that they attacked individual communities which were not occupied by German troops, but by Serbian Gendarmes, and that industry was partially crippled by the threat to the population prepared to work.
Q Did he also talk of an especially threatened and an especially important railway line?
A Yes, he further mentioned the vital orders of the entire Balkna area, was the only efficient railway line from Belgrade by Salenika and towards Athens, and that if supplies along this railway line were decisively interrupted, not only the German and Italian forces in Greece would have to suffer through this, but that also the Greek population would have to suffer under it.
Q Did Boehme also tell you what political attitude these bands had?
A The situation when I arrived there was approximately the following. There were three groups, two of which,-- that is the Communist, under an unknown leader, - if there was a leader at all, - and a national group under Colonel Muhajlevic. These two groups fought against the Germans; whereas a third group under Kosta Petanac, and I spell it, K-e-s-t-a P-e-t-a-n-a-c.......
A... The third group, under Kosta Pecanac, kept to the Nedic Government and fought against the Communists. And he said that the Nedic Government, as of approximately the middle of September, took over with the forces at its disposal. That is, the Serbian police, the Serbian Gendarmes, and the Getniks, who were loyal to the government under Kosta Pecanac in the southern Serbian area, and a few other groups also in northern and western Serbian area fought with Germany.
Q. Did Boehme also tell you anything about instructions of the Communist Party of Serbia regarding band warfare?
A. Yes, he mentioned, as far as I remember, this instruction or this directive as a proof of the fact that the disengagement of the Communist insurgent movement in Serbia must have been dictated by Moscow.
Q. What did he tell you about the manner of fighting of the Partisans?
A. He said the manner of fighting on the part of the Partisans was such as was only applied by franc-tireurs. There was no open fighting in which the two parties opposed each other on clearly defined fronts, but the difficulty of the situation was mainly that these bands sometimes appeared as franc-tireurs, and at other times they appeared as peaceful citizens. They turned up in unexpected places, and then by surprise attacks damaged the German Wehrmacht wherever they could. And he said that on the occasion of such attacks they treated their prisoners in a manner violating International Law. He pointed this out to me on the basis of several reports. Of course, in the course of time I forgot a number of details but just the example of the attack, which has repeatedly been mentioned here, on parts of the Signal Regiment. These details I happen to remember.
Q. Did he say anything about German uniforms which the Partisans were when they appeared?
A. Yes, he said that it had repeatedly been ascertained that the Partisans took uniforms away from captured or killed German soldiers and then wore these German uniforms.
Q. Were the contents of the Yugoslavian capitulation known to you?
A. The contents as such were not known to me, but I knew, of course, from the radio and from press reports that the Yugoslavian Army -- I beg your pardon, not the Yugoslavian Army, the Yugoslavian Armed Forces - capitulated somewhere around the 17th of April.
Q. Did the capitulation contain a provision as to how somebody had to be treated who, as a former Yugoslavian soldier, further carried uniforms and weapons?
A. I have already stated that the contents of the capitulation negotiations were not known to me, but during a conversation -
MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, if he says he doesn't know anything about the Yugoslavian capitulation, I don't know how he is competent to testify to it. I object to any further statements unless the proper foundation is laid.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Objection over-ruled.
BY DR. MENZEL:
A. I repeat; I have already stated that the contents of the capitulation negations as such were not known to me. However, during conversations I have heard that there was a special clause, according to which every former Armed Forces member, who after a fixed date, was found with a weapon or a uniform was punishable by death.
Q. But you only heard that during conversations?
A. Yes. I only heard it here.
Q. Well, I'll return to that at some other point. These bands, were they a peculiarity of the Serbian area or were they generally found throughout the Balkans?
A. The widespread bands in the Balkans, as is well known, dated from Turkish times. The reason for this, first of all, a glorified robber organization, and then from the very clearly defined differences in the Balkans between the religions and between the different nationalities.
The Partisans organization was first made known to the German Armies in the years 1917 and 1918. And it is probably significant that the leader of the Partisans at that time, behind the German Bulgarian, Front, was Kosta Pecanac. But now probably in realization of his activity then which he probably did not consider correct, he now continued at the side of the Serbian Government. Now, the bands will have found their basis in the organization of the Cetniks, who partly fought on the German side and were partly subordinated to Mihajlovic. The Cetniks, also the anti-German Centiks, were politically strongly opposed to the Communists. At that time, of course, that difference had not shown any effects, but it was recognizable to us only as of the middle of November. May I add here that the situation in the Italian occupied area, as far as it was known to me and clear to me at that time, was already approximately thus: That there too was unrest, and this was unrest of Communist origin, as well as unrest of a national origin, which, here again, can traced back to the very clearly defined differences between the Roman Catholic Croats, and the orthodox Serbs.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this point we will take the usual recess until half past one.
(A RECESS WAS TAKEN)
AFTERNOON SESSION
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom please find their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: The present session will continue until three-thirty this afternoon and will then recess until tomorrow morning at half-past nine. You may proceed.
DR. MENZEL: May I make two statements for my colleague, Dr. Laternser? He has asked me to state that I am authorized if necessary to deputize for him because he is not able to attend this afternoon. Furthermore, he has asked me to announce a witness for him. That is the witness Herbert Krage. This witness is to testify about the events with -
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: There seem to be some mechanical difficulties. Is it corrected? You may proceed.
DR. MENZEL: Before the recess we stopped at the manner of fighting of the partisans.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: Just a moment please. We will have to take a short recess because of mechanical difficulties, in the recording machine here and downstairs. We will remain seated until we are advised it is necessary to take a longer recess.
(A recess was taken.)
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: I am advised that it may take five or ten minutes so the Court will recess until we are advised it is completely ready.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: We may now proceed -- I trust.
BY DR. MENZEL (Counsel for defendant Kuntze):
Q. Before the recess we stopped at discussions about the manner of fighting used by the partisans. Now, witness, what did General Boehme tell you about his further plans in fighting the bands?
A. He simply said the following: A change in the situation had already started towards the end of September, and that was on the occasion of the employment of the newly imported 342nd Division from France. This division reinforced by other forces previously imported from Greece on the order of Field Marshal List, had combatted a stronger partisan group near Sabac. This success, however, had unfortunately not been a decisive one since strong parts of the partisan groups had been able to escape to the mountains south of Sabac. The main breeding place of the insurgents was supposedly somewhere near Uzice. I will spell that name: Uzice. But smaller groups too were all over the place, in the northwestern part of Serbia, and these band remnants had to be found first and then destroyed. It would be feasible that a further division, the 113th Division, which as of the beginning of November was expected as of that date -- its arrival, since it was to come from the East, might well be delayed as far as the second half of November. When this division had arrived and the small remnants of the bands had been eliminated, then with two groups, that is, with the 342nd, approximately in the district of Loznica -- I will spell that name: Loznica -- and with the 113th Division from the East he would attack a main source of resistance near Uzice. He had hoped that this enterprise would then lead to success, and that thus the bulk of the insurgents from the old Serbian area would be eliminated.
Q. What now did the Serbian government itself do against the band attacks?
A. The Serbian government was of a strongly anti--communist attitude and all forces at its disposal -- that is the police, the Gen armes, and the Chetniks, which were gathered under the name Assistant Gendarmes -- all these forces were put at the disposal, and with all these forces either in an independent enterprise or together with German forces, the Communists would he fought.
Their attitude toward Mihajlovic was described to me by Boehme an inscrutable, and I can well understand that. It is quite obvious that every nationally minded Serb sympathized with the Mihajlovic people.
Q. Was the success of these government measures different in northern Serbia from the southern part of Serbia?
A. I have already stated that in southern Serbia - that is, about in the district west of Nish, right over to the Albanian frontier, that is in the Ibar Valley, near Nebaza, apart from isolated sabotage acts -there was peace and order. And apart from the 117th Division, which was located in that area, Kosta Pecanac took care of this law and order.
Q. Did General Boehme give you any information about the strength of the bands and about the strength of the auxiliary police?
A. He may have given me information. It is very difficult now in retrospect to make a picture of the actual strength of the bands. Later on, on the basis of communications during the time of September and up until about the beginning of October -- that is, before the enterprise of Sabac -- I would have estimated them as a whole on the strength of about 20 to 30,000. A large part of those had already crumbled off. The Gendarmes amounted, originally, to about 1,500 men. The Chetnik units, which fought together with the Germans, amounted to about 10,000 men.
Q. Did, in autumn of 1941, the relation between the two large bands change at all?
A. Yes, it did change, as was made known to us about the middle of November. The documents, too, show several communications quite clearly.
Q. Exhibit 104 on page 93 in the English and page 69 in the German?
A. I can't say that. I will have to look at it.