Q. In what form?
A. Every evening there was a trumpet signal, and the population in Gergici was called together. One of the partisans --
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honors please, he is leading the witness. He can testify to what he saw, and what was done, but certainly ho cannot testify that such a thing was a signal for the population to assemble.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q. How do you conclude that this was a signal to call people together
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, that is deliberately asking for a conclusion of the witness in this regard.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained. Ask if there was a signal, and what happened? If there was something of that character. Let's try to shorten it if we can...
As I said before, we do not want to limit you but you are trying to show, as I take it, the manner of warfare, and the only way you can do it is to give particular incidents, but if possible, endeavor to shorten it as much as you can.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Yes, indeed, Your Honor.
Q. Witness, how long did you remain in captivity with the partisans?
A. Until the 28th of November, 1944.
Q. Did you remain in Georgici all of that time?
A. No. After Kalamata had fallen into the hands of the partisans, the partisans left the mountains and went down into the valley, and there transferred to Kalamata. They took the prisoners with them.
Q. How do you know that?
A. Because I myself was taken along by them. There in Kalamata I got separated from the rest of the prisoners. First of all, - I shall later on return to the subject again, to give an explanation. Five of us had remained behind. Later on, on another surprise attack on a reconnaissance patrol, the partisans had again made prisoners, and these were also brought to Georgici, so that there were more than the five of us who had remained behind from the first 22.
I remember that there were 10 or 12 such German prisoners, who together with me, were transferred to Kalamata. In Kalamata, however, they became separated from me. These remaining 10 or 12 who were brought to the prison in Kalamata, lived there under the most dreadful conditions.
Q. How do you know that?
A. I saw it myself.
Q. What do you mean by the "most dreadful circumstances"?
A. First of all, they were starving. They received only very little bread during the day.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: The witness testified that the prisoners were sep from him. If that is true I do not see how he is competent to testify as to the conditions that existed, where the persons who were separated from him existed.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he is referring now to the ones who joined him. The question further comes to my mind as to its materiality to the issues involved here. You claim that what happened to this man is material in connection with the whole situation?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: The Witness, I believe, wanted to describe the way in which German prisoners were treated by Partisans.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that might be true but is it material to the charge involved here, or will it be helpful to the Tribunal in settling the issues that necessarily must be decided by this Tribunal? There are a lot of incidents and questions that went on down there which this Tribunal can't pass upon necessarily.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I thought it was material concerning the opinion about the Partisans down there, but of course. I shall withdraw the question if the Tribunal wishes.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed with the examination along this line briefly. One thing the Tribunal wants to avoid is limiting you on matters which are material, omitting the details as much as possible. You proceed along the lines that you have in mind to a limited extent.
BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, how long did you remain in Kalamata after that and where did you go then?
A On the 28th of November of the same year there were negotiations of exchange between the Greeks and the British occupation forces, and so, on the 28th of November, 1944, we were handed over to the British, and from there came via Corinth, to Patras, and in Patras we remained a few days and then we came to Athens. In Athens we were collected in Camp Godi. On the 13th of December of the same year we were transported by boat from the Port Phaleron, and on the 15th of December we arrived in Alexandria. Since then I have been a British prisoner of war in Egypt, and now, on the 12th of September, 1947, I was dismissed from captivity.
Q Chaplain, did you have frequent conversations with Partisans?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was the subject of such conversations?
A They liked it best to discuss their plunder and murder operations. At least, this is how it seemed to me. They showed me many pictures, also pictures of families which they had taken away from murdered German soldiers.
Q How do you. know that?
A Because they told me so. Also, one of these pictures which they showed me showed the family of a sergeant whom I had seen in Pylos one day before I left Pylos. I had then visited him in the hospital and he used the convoy because he had been advised to be operated on by a doctor in Tripolis. He did in no way participate in the fighting. The Partisan told me gleefully that he was responsible for the fact that this Sergeant was no longer alive. They bragged about their cruelties.
Q Witness, do you know General Felmy?
A Yes, I know him.
Q How do you know him?
A I know him from a visit which I made in summer of 1943 when his staff was still located in Veccina, when I was introduced to him by the chaplain of Army Group E whose name was Rathge. I and my colleague of the 1st Panzer Division had paid a visit to General Felmy, General Felmy led us to a map of the Peloponnes and showed us a brief situation report. He told us where there were the troops and units located which we should visit wherever possible and where we should hold services.
Q Did General Felmy, after the impression which you gained and which might have later on become stronger or not -- you will have to tell us that -- did, in your opinion, General Felmy show understanding for your duties as an Army chaplain?
A Not only did he show understanding but during my work I found immense support and backing in General Felmy. This was of special importance to me because my own divisional commander showed less interest for the welfare work for the units. Thus, on my trips and visits with the troops, I could always refer back to the order given to me by General Felmy and thus many doors opened to me which might otherwise have remained closed.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any questions by other defense counsel? You may cross examine, Mr. Fenstermacher.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Thank you, your Honor.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Chaplain, during the period in which you served with the 117th Light Infantry Division, did you have occasion to see any orders and reports regarding reprisal measures?
A No.
Q Did you consider reprisal measures outside your jurisdiction because they were matters of tactics?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I object to this question. It does not represent any facts to which the witness could testify. It is a legal argument to which this witness is not competent to testify.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, I am simply asking why he didn't consider reprisal measures within the scope of his jurisdiction.
THE PRESIDENT: He may answer it.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Do you recall the question?
A Yes, I do. Mr. Prosecutor, concerning the military necessity of reprisal measures, I do not think I am competent to answer as to this question. I am not a military expert and I would like to leave to others the opinion and decision about this question.
Q I am simply asking you, Chaplain, whether it was because you felt that reprisal measures were matters of tactics that you did not concern yourself with them; is that the reason?
A Partly, yes.
Q Do you consider reprisal measures matters of tactics?
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, just a minute. I can't see, and I am sure the other members of the Tribunal cannot see, where this witness, a Chaplain, would have any basis of a study or information upon which he could give an opinion as to reprisals.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Well, if your Honor please, I am trying to get out the whole problem of what are reprisals; are they matters of tactics or are they not matters of tactics.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's get that from somebody who is an authority. I hope it is true that gentlemen of the cloth are no authorities on reprisals.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Very well, your Honor.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Did you, Chaplain, get to hear anything about the reprisal measures which were taken after the death of the German soldiers at Kalavrita?
A I heard -
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: Your Honor, I object. The witness is asked about something of which he can only have information from hearsay.
THE PRESIDENT: He might answer the question as to whether he heard, as to whether he can then state what he heard is another bridge to cross.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Would you answer my question please?
A Yes, I heard about it.
Q Did you see any reports about that fact?
A No, I didn't.
Q Now, you have testified on direct examination that you assured the Partisan with whom you talked that you would be able to prevent any reprisal measures being taken against his village if he would release you and the other Germans who had been captured at that attack. Were reprisal measures usually taken in reprisal for an attack upon German soldiers in your division area?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I object to this question also. The witness cannot answer the question in this general way.
He is not competent to do that as divisional chaplain.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If your Honor please, it is a matter of common knowledge within the division as to whether or not reprisal measures were usually taken in reprisal for an attack of this kind. If that were not so, it would appear completely incomprehensible as to why he made that particular proposal to the Partisan with whom he negotiated.
THE PRESIDENT: He may answer if he knows.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Would you answer the question please?
A I know that in the area of my division reprisal measures took place but only as a consequence or as a counter measure against surprise attacks on our own soldiers, and in most cases only then when they were killed in such surprise attacks.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will take its afternoon recess.
(Recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom please take their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q Chaplain, after the attack upon your convoy and after your capture, you premised the partisan with whom you were speaking that if he would release you and the other prisoners, you would prevent any reprisal actions being taken against that village. Why did you make that proposal?
A I made this proposed in order to save the wounded.
Q Were reprisal measures customarily taken in reprisal for attack upon a German convoy?
A In any case, frequently, perhaps not always but frequently against such attacks in which German soldiers lost their lives reprisal measures took place.
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I object, How should the witness know that generally reprisal measures were frequently taken? This is impossible for him to know from his position as divisional chaplain.
THE PRESIDENT: If he knows, he can state; the objection will be overruled.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q You said, Chaplain, that reprisal measures were taken frequently. What happened in the course of those reprisal measures? What was done?
A I am rather surprised at your question, Mr. Prosecutor. I think it must be clear to you what the term"reprisal measures" means.
Q Well, perhaps you'd better explain, if you will, please.
A My impression is, Mr. Prosecutor, that here you want to make me give some judgment about a military tactical affair. I feel I am not competent to do that. I can only repeat what I said before. I am sure you would not be interested in my telling you what I only know from hearsay
Q Chaplain, you have testified that you knew that after there was an attack upon a German convoy, reprisal measures were frequently taken, and I am asking you what you understand by reprisal measures. What was done? What was a reprisal measure? What did it entail?
A In such cases, shootings took place, shootings of those persons who were proved to be guilty. In any case, people about whom one thought one had sufficient evidence to prove that they had been guilty and perhaps had been actively engaged in the attack, and in the main, such people were taken and they had to atone for their own actual deeds.
Q You mean then that if persons that participated in an attack or at least if it had been thought that they had participated in an attack upon a German convoy, then those persons would be shot?
A Mr. Prosecutor, the word "attack" seems to be rather military here. I would rather say "surprise raid." I regard the partisans as bandits.
Q Now, were other persons other than those who were thought to have participated in the attack shot in the course of a reprisal measure?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I was not present in the selection of such victims who came into the question for reprisal measures. I was not consulted as an advisor as divisional chaplain, and I can only answer here what I have perhaps heard but not with facts.
Q Now were villages burned in the course of a reprisal measure?
A I don't know anything about villages being burned down. I only know that selected houses in which munition stocks were found, were destroyed.
Q You stated that you spoke to the partisan with whom you were negotiating for your release and the release of the others who were with you, that if they would release you you would try to prevent the shooting of men from the village and also to prevent the village itself from being burned down. Why did you mention the burning down of the village?
A My main idea was to save the wounded and, therefore, it was in my interest and in the interests of the wounded, first of all, to describe the danger to which the band partisans were exposed from the German side, as great as possible to them.
This way they might be more willing to agree to the offered proposal.
Q Was there a danger that the village would be burned down and the men of the village shot in reprisal for the attack upon your convoy?
A. There was perhaps the possibility, as I heard afterwards it didn't take place. The possibility did not exist that all the men of the village would be shot, but that some of them would be recognized as guilty and would have to atone with their lives. That is, those who had, themselves, killed people.
Q. And at the time you made that proposal to the partisan, did you also believe that there was a danger that the village would be burned down?
A. At least some houses.
Q. Did you mention only some houses when you spoke to him or did you use the word "village?"
A. Mr. Prosecutor, in such a situation, mental excitement in which one was at the time, one does not weigh my words and it is impossible for me after such a long time to remember exactly one single word.
Q. You also said that you proposed that 40 hostages would be released from the hostage camp if you and your comrades were set free. Did you know about hostage camps?
A. I in my capacity as divisional chaplain, I had nothing to do with hostage camps. It did not belong to my sphere of tasks.
Q. You knew that they existed, though, did you not?
A. I did not know whether hostage camps existed.
Q. Did you know of a hostage camp, singular?
A. I knew that in Tripolis hostages were kept in a camp.
Q. How big was the camp?
A. I don't know. I could only again make a statement of what I perhaps assume but not facts. I don't know.
Q. You never saw the camp yourself?
A. I was never in this camp. I was never allowed to visit such a camp.
Q. Who prevented you from visiting that camp?
A. It did not belong to my tasks as divisional chaplain and the troops did not want me to overstep the limits of my sphere of duties, and to get mixed up in affairs which did not belong to my own tasks.
Q. And you mention the figure of 40 hostages when you were negotiating with the partisan. Why did you mention that number rather than tel or one or one hundred?
A. It was quite arbitrary. I just picked it out by chance, and not from any particular reason.
Q. Well, you said that you would try to have 40 hostages released from the hostage camp if the partisans would free you. You didn't know whether or not there were any members of that particular village held in the hostage camp at Tripolis at the time you made your proposal, did you?
A. They did not have to be inhabitants of the village but other hostages. The partisans were interested in other hostages who were somehow captured were released again.
Q. Were hostages who did not live in the village from which the attack came likely to be executed in reprisal for that attack?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was not present one single time at a single "so-called" reprisal measure or at any shooting of hostages. I don't know.
Q. How did you know at the time you made the proposal that the partisans would probably be very much interested in securing hostages, securing the release of hostages from that camp whether or not they were hostages from that particular village from which the attack came?
A. My intention was to attract the partisans by the most favorable proposal possible and to prepare an advantageous basis for a negotiation with them.
Q. Was it common knowledge among the staff of the 117th Division that there was a hostage quota which was used in case of reprisal measures for attacks upon German troops?
DR. MUELLER-TURGOW: I object to this question. The witness cannot know whether it was generally known in the staff or not.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Did you ever hear, Chaplain, about the execution of hostages at given ratios in reprisal for each German wounded, I mean or killed?
A. I knew that there was a Fuehrer Order which decreed the ratio of one to fifty but I don't know of one single case in which this ratio was actually adhered to. On the contrary, it seems to me as if where reprisal measures were carried out, not even half of the ratio ordered was carried out.
Q. That 50 to one order in the hands of the division-
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me, sir. Is the subject of a matter which was considered in direct examination?
MR. FENSTERMACHER: Perhaps it was not, your Honor, I will discontinue.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Chaplain, you said that when your convoy reached the village from which the attack upon the convoy came, that the village was deserted and that you saw no men around. How large a village was it? Were there many houses? Could you approximate the number of inhabitants perhaps?
A. I can only give an approximate estimate. Perhaps there were one hundred to two hundred families living in this village. At any rate, not more.
Q. Was there no one on the streets at the time the convoy passed through?
A. Nobody.
Q. Was the convoy on a reprisal mission?
A. No.
Q. You said the civilians ran away when the convoy approached. Is that why you called them "suspicious?"
A. Not when the convoy approached the village. We didn't see anybody in the village at all. It was at the exit of the village and outside the village and into the mountains that the civilians disappeared.
Q. From your experience, was it usual for civilians, Greek civ ilians because to the civilians this was the safest means of travel and transport.
In the convoy in which I was traveling, there were also civilians, a Greek civilian, a merchant from Tripolis. He had been detained by the partisans for many months simply because he had dared to use a German convoy. In the same convoy there was also a woman, and children.
Q. Excuse me. Chaplain, I think we'd better not go into that particular incident. Let me ask you whether you considered the civilians who ran away "band suspects."
A. Certainly?
Q. You considered them suspects because they ran away at the approach of your convoy?
A. They were certainly the same partisans who had already lain in their prepared ambush and were waiting for the convoy. These partisans sent out reconnaissance patrols to find out when and where the convoy was coming.
Q. I don't believe you have quite answered my question. Did you consider the civilians whom you saw run away band suspects for that reason--that is because they had run away at your approach?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. The partisans who captured you, you stated, wore no uniform insignia. Did they wear any insignia at all that you could observe?
A. I can't remember that they wore any kind of insignia. In the main, I had to deal with men who were clothed in dirty town civilian clothes. Only the so-called officers were better dressed.
Q. Didn't all the men wear Soviet stars?
A. Now and again, I noticed this among some of the soldiers.
Q. Did they wear-
A. I remember that one partisan had a Soviet star painted on his rifle.
Q. Did they wear arm bands?
A. No.
Q. In the course of your conversations with these Partisans did they make any references to belonging to a company or regiment of Partisans?
A. I don't remember this and if this had been the case then they probably wouldn't have made any such statements as this to prisoners.
Q. Now, you also referred to other Partisans who were called officers, is that right?
A. I mostly found that out afterwards. Often the man who questioned me or with whom I had something to do - I discovered that he was an officer and I found out later on that he was rather better dressed than the others. Mostly he wore boots, while the others had no shoes at all.
Q. Did he tell you what rank he was?
Q. Well, now and again one of them told me that he had some kind of military rank, but whether that was true, of course I couldn't check.
Q. Did you hear any of the Partisans refer to other Partisans as captain or colonel?
A. Well, captains or, as the Greeks said, capitanos -- these were designations for all those people who were, to them, officers. They spoke about the great capitanos and the small capitanos. Probably these ranks were rather vague and unclear to them.
Q. How many Partisans were there in the group that captured you?
A. The question is rather difficult to answer, Mr. Prosecutor. I can only estimate how large the groups were on the strength of their fire, but I can't say with certainty. I only had to do with those few who took me away afterwards. The statements of the Partisans themselves were very contradictory.
Q. How many Partisans were there when you were captured? How many did you see yourself?
A. About thirty to, at the most, 50, but the figure is only approximate.
Q. You couldn't tell, could you, whether or not the civilians who had run away at the approach of the convoy had also participated in the attack?
You couldn't know that?
A. No, I can't prove that, but I don't know what else they were doing. They certainly weren't going for a walk.
Q. You didn't see then firing though, did you?
A. During the firing one saw nobody at all. The Partisans were all ready in very well prepared ambushes and we were the only ones who weren't well hidden. We were the ones who had been surprised, and who had no cover.
Q. Chaplain, in the course of your conversations with the Partisans who captured you, did you speak Greek?
A. Yes, as well as I could. I know ancient Greek and my knowledge of ancient Greek helped me very much.
Q. Did the Partisans say anything about why they had attacked your convey?
A. They said nothing at all about it. They didn't need to say anything about it. It was quite clear that the main motive - or one of the main motives - was to plunder. They knew exactly that hero comes a convoy which brings supplies and food to the troops and that this attack would be worthwhile. The civilian population of Chora took part very zealously in the plundering of the convoy and they fought with the Partisans about the spoils.
Q. Your's was a convoy that was taking food and ammunition to other troops?
A. I know mainly that tho convoy carried food. Whether and how much munitions was also there I really don't know.
Q. You said in the course of your conversations with the Partisans one of the Partisans had mentioned that a relative of his had been shot. Did any of the other Partisans comment to you about things which the German troops had done either to them or to their relatives?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I object to this question. As far as I remember, the witness didn't say anything about it.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: If Your Honor please, the witness can take care of himself in this regard. If he didn't mention it, he can certainly say so.
THE PRESIDENT: I believe it was the subject of direct examination. The objection will be overruled.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Do you remember the question?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, the Partisan crowds consisted, for the most part, as far as my observations went, of people eager to plunder, of youths who were seeking adventure.
Q. I'm afraid that isn't quite responsive to my question. Do you recall the question or would you like me to repeat it?
A. I remember the question. I just wanted to answer you. You interrupted me.
For the main part, the Partisan bands were composed of the people I have just mentioned. By far the lesser part of the bands were composed of people who participated out of revenge because their houses had been set on fire during reprisal measures or they had been personally hit by some kind of reprisal measures, but this was the very smallest part of the Partisan bands. The majority were people eager to rob and out for adventure. Mostly youths. I myself have often seen 14 year old boys going around with rifles and even women, and women who took part in shooting and often took part in the raids.
Q. Chaplain, my question to you was, during the course of your confinement by the Partisans, whether any of them spoke to you about themselves or their relatives having been injured by the Germans? Was that the subject of your conversations with any of the Partisans?
A. Not very often. Now and again such a conversation took place, but very infrequently. In general.....
THE PRESIDENT: Pardon me just a minute. The matter which was gone into on direct examination, as I remember it, referred to a particular statement which, if I remember, was made by certain Partisans to this witness.
Now, let's limit out examination to that phase of it.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. Chaplain, you testified also during the course of your march from the place where you were captured to another place that you had been beaten by the Partisans. Was that because you had tried to escape?
A. No, I was beaten at the time of the first transport, quite near to Chora.
Q. Were you beaten too badly to continue marching?
A. No, but so much that for several weeks I suffered a very deep bad septic wound.
Q. You also testified that you had never been given any blankets during the several days of your march. What was the climate like in July in that area of Greece? Did you need blankets?
A. During the march by day through the mountains we were almost completely naked and exposed to the burning sun. Our backs hurt so much that we could scarcely go on. The nights, on the other hand, were just as cold as the days were hot and, in addition, because of our sun burnt backs we could scarcely lie.
Q. Then you talked about arriving at the destination of your march and seeing a man in a British uniform. Were there other persons there also in British uniform?
A. Now and again, but mostly there were the so-called Partisan officers.
Q. Were they dressed in khaki uniforms?
A. Not all the Partisan officers wore English uniforms, but amongst them there were also many who wore a very different kind of clothing but there was one amongst them who had such clothing and it was mostly,--not always but mostly,--one of the so-called officers.
Q. Did you see the Soviet Star on the uniforms of those persons there?
A. Now and again I saw the Soviet Star, but not always.
Q. Your commander, General von Le Suire -- do you happen to know whether or not he was ever promoted from a divisional commander to a higher post?
DR. MUELLER-TORGOW: I object, Your Honor. This question was not a subject of direct examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Sustained.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q. The four prisoners who were with you during your confinement by the bands - are they all still alive today?
A. I am convinced that out of the twenty-two prisoners......
Q Excuse me, Chaplain. Would you answer my question? I spoke particularly about four prisoners who you testified were with you one time and then again at another.
AAmongst the four prisoners at the beginning there was a Master Sergeant - I don't remember his name. He had a very serious thigh wound and when we were transported away through the mountains, he collapsed. Then he was put onto a mule, a Partisan remained behind with him a little, and we heard shooting from a machine gun and I didn't see him again. What happened to the other three I don't know.
Q How many prisoners were there with you when you were transferred from, I believe you said Kalamata, to Athens?
AAt the same time, 150 Italian Partisans who were to be sent back home were handed over and, in addition, in Kalamata there were nine to ten German prisoners including myself- I think 10. Later on, during the journey through Tripolis and Corinth a few more German prisoners were added, so that altogether, when we arrived in Athens, we were probably about 15 to 16.
Q Of your comrades who were captured along with you on the day of this attack, how many are still alive today, if you know?
A I can be certain about three - probably five, but certainly three.
Q Excuse me, Chaplain. That will be all.
No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: May I inquire of the witness, of the twenty-three or twenty-two captives, how many of those twenty-two or twenty-three were with you when you went back to Athens?
THE WITNESS: Including myself, five.
THE PRESIDENT: That's all.
Any further questions from defense counsel.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MUELLER-TORGOW:
Q Witness, you have told us about one attack on the Peloponnes. Did you yourself experience all the other attacks in Greece?