A. Here you have to make the following differentiation, Mr. Fenstermacher. On direct examination I have stated that the SS, or let us say the Police Regiment XVIII was responsible to me for security tasks, not partisan but security tasks, from the time they came at the end of August 1943 until approximately, I said, the beginning of November and they were responsible to me for the security of the streets from north to south. Starting with that time, all the police forces, as I said, were committed in the partisan area Boeotia. They had been assigned by the Higher SS and Police leader and, as I have already stated, basing myself upon the directive, they did carry out combat tasks. This particular assignment had no longer anything to do with the Military Commander, who was merely the intermediate agency.
Q. I understand your attitude regarding the tactical subordination of the 18th SS and Police Regiment to you, General Speidel. I wonder if you would try to answer my general question; if an SS unit is tactically subordinate to a Wehrmacht commander and is the Wehrmacht commander responsible for those reprisal measures committed by the SS unit in the course of a tactical operation?
A. It must always be the pre-requisite that this SS unit is tactically subordinate to the Military Commander. Another pre-requisite is that the Military Commander has the tactical task and that the reprisals are necessary within the frame-work of the situation. The same holds true in the case of every commitment within the Army.
Q. Now, we will turn to the police functions of the Higher SS and Police Leader. What was the strength of the XVIII SS Police Mountain Regiment, which was subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader.
A. I cannot tell you that exactly, Mr. Fenstermacher, it was an infantry regiment and I suppose it was just as strong as an ordinary infantry regiment. I could see from the documents that it was a so-called reinforced infantry regiment, because I read something about artillery. If you want me to give figures, it is difficult and I would rather not give figures. It was a reinforced infantry regiment.
Q. But to give the Tribunal some idea, would you say around 3,000 men?
A. That is a little too much. I think 2,000 would be much closer.
Q. And some of these 2,000 men were sometimes committed for police functions in Athens and other times committed for tactical operations in the area of Boeotia?
A. The main thing was that the regiment was in Boeotia as a tactical unit. I have seen from orders that the Higher SS and Police Leader from time to time used Italians from there for the vicinity of Athens, but the main thing was that the entire Regiment was in Boeotia and what parts of the regiment he may have had in Athens, it could only have been small parts, but I don't know.
Q. So for the most part the XVIII SS and Police Mountain Regiment was in the tactical area of General Felmy's LXVIII Corps?
A. One part of your statement is true, the other part is not, Mr. Fenstermacher; the regiment was located in Boeotia predominately and the territory Boeotia was also assigned to the Higher SS and Police Leader. But, it was not true that this was the territory of General Felmy in the sense that a subordination relation to General Felmy could be construed. The Higher SS and Police Leader here had his own independant war there as I might say and naturally he had loose contact with other tactical units.
Q. You said in the course of direct examination that the Higher SS and Police Leader in Athens had the right to commit Evzone units and he therefore had the right to order any retaliation for the losses suffered by any Evzone units. I take it that you mean the order to commit a unit included the right to retaliate for losses suffered by the units?
A. In order to put that straight, you will have to tell me what commitments you mean. Are you referring to the commitment in Boeotia? If you are, I think I have already clarified the matter you are talking about. The military commitment for partisan fighting in Boeotia, I think that subject has already been clarified. Now this here is merely a police commitment, in which case he was subordinate to the Reichsfuehrer SS and had to act according to his directives as I have already spoken about these two commitments, in direct examination.
Q. My question was somewhat more general, General Speidel, I am asking if a Wehrmacht unit or a commander has the right to commit a unit in a tactical area for tactical operations, does that Wehrmacht commander also have the right to order reprisal measures for any losses suffered in the course of those tactical operations; that is simply a general question.
A. The divisional commander according to general directives, and I recall exhibit 306, was always acting independently in decreeing reprisal actions?
Q. I would like now, General Speidel, to take up in some detail the subordination of the Higher SS and Police Leader to you with respect to the order of procedure for the SS Leader. In Document Book 17, page 105 in the English and page 75 in the German.
On page 75 of the German and page 105 of the English, there is given the Standard Order of procedure for the Senior SS Leader and Police in Greece.
The first paragraph implies there has been an agreement between Keitel and Himmler for the appointment of this Higher SS and Police Leader, whom I believe you stated was General Schimana.
Paragraph 2 states quite clearly that this Higher SS and Police Leader General Schimana is to be subordinated to you for the period of his employment in Greece.
Paragraph 3 seems to be the one on which you spent most time on direct examination. Isn't it clear from paragraph 3, General Speidel, that all that is mentioned there is simply a description of the type and functions of duty that General Schimana was to carry out in Greece under your subordination, as stated in paragraph 2?
A. No, Mr. Fenstermacher, an interpretation of such an order after four years have passed cannot be undertaken from a theoretical point of view. The decisive thing is how the directive was at that time laid down, interpreted and executed. I have stated in great detail during my direct examination how I understood this directive at that time. I have expected that you would take out some passages and then say that they were subordinated to the Military Commander. This subordination is contrary to the ordinary type of subordination of police leader. We have heard in Serbia that the subordination of the Higher SS and Police Leader was a very loose one and no mention at that time was made of a directive, while here we have a directive and I am very glad that there is one from my point of view.
THE PRESIDENT: At this time we will take our morning recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess until 11:15 o'clock.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may continue.
Q. (By Mr. Fenstermacher) General Speidel, we were looking at the order of procedure for the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece on page 75 of the German Document Book XVII and page 105 of the English.
Before we get into a discussion regarding what actually was the situation by your contention in Greece regarding this particular subordination, I would like to first discuss with you and perhaps reach an agreement with you as to what the order itself provides.
Would you agree that paragraph 3 by using the words, "embraces all duties emcumbant upon the Reichfuehrer of the German Police in the Reich," is simply a description of the type of duties which the Higher SS and Police Leader for Greece is supposed to perform; that is to say, that paragraph 3 does not concern any subordination of the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece to the Reichfuehrer SS in Germany but is simply a description of the type of things which the Higher SS and Police Leader for Greece is going to carry out.
A. First of all, I would like to ask you, Mr. Fenstermacher, to make your questions a little shorter and not to ask so many questions at the same time because it is difficult for me to answer them as I would like to answer them and as it would be proper for them to be answered.
As to this paragraph 3 which you referred to, I would like to say that I don't share your opinion but that this is the fixing of a task for the Higher SS and Police Leader in the framework of his duties, this for the following reason:
It says here: "The Higher SS and Police Leader embraces all duties which are encumbant on the Reichfuehrer SS in the Reich."
In other words, one has to start from considering what the tasks of the Reichfuehrer SS were and they were pure police tasks in Germany. In this capacity he was not subordinate to any Military Commander.
The parallel idea to paragraph 3 is then that the same police tasks were in a smaller area -- namely, in Greece -- encumbant on the Reichfuehrer i.e., here on the Higher SS and Police Leader in Greece, and he again is parallel to the Reichfuehrer SS not to any subordinate military commander.
If I am saying this in this form today, it might sound incomprehensible for you but one has always to take into consideration the conditions of power and the spheres of competency in the Third Reich.
Q. There is nothing in paragraph 3, is there General, that states that in performing these police duties General Schimana will be subordinate to Himmler in the performance of those police duties? Isn't the subordination character of Schimana with respect to these duties already taken care of by paragraph 2?
A. We first of all have to discuss this basic paragraph 2. In this connection, I would like to anticipate the following.
When we received the documents we read many things which were unpleasant or, I would like to say, they were, almost all of them, things which were unpleasant; but there was one document here, Exhibit 419, which pleased me and this for the following reason:
My conceptions of my opinions at the time which had in the meantime become a little value were almost literally confirmed in this document and in this connection I would like to repeat some thing which I said before the morning recess.
It is not correct to take apart this order theoretically after a time period of four years. One has to understand it from the situation of that time and from the tasks which existed at that time, also from the power conditions which existed at the time, and if one thus regards this order then one cannot deduct from the word "subordinated" a total subordination because there was no such thing. The Reichfuehrer SS would have never permitted that one of his agencies was totally subordinated to a Wehrmacht unit.
Q. It might be granted, General, that perhaps regarding discipline, for example, as an officer of the Reichfuehrer SS Schimana would be responsible for discipline or for the appointment of persons subordinate to him to Himmler, but regarding the duties which he is to perform in Greece, isn't it clear from paragraph 2 that in performing those police duties he is subordinate to you? What other meaning could be given to the subordination which is referred to in paragraph 2?
A. Mr. Fenstermacher, may I add something? You interrupted me before when I talked about subordination. This subordination provided in paragraph 2 is the description of a general establishment but no detailed reasons are given. Everything which follow in according to my opinion of today and of that time the outlining of those spheres of duties in which the Higher SS and Police Leader was not subordinate to me. After all, I could not have any police tasks in the meaning of a police technical task. That was up to the Reichfuehrer SS and the Higher SS and Police Leader who was subordinate to him. I would assume that the prosecution holds the same point of view if I may repeat a quotation from General Taylor which I mentioned during my direct examination.
It was quite generally said in the indictment that the Higher SS and Police leaders remained personally responsible to Himmler, but for tactical tasks they were subordinated to the ranking military commander in the area where they were employed. If the prosecution had been of a different opinion at the time they would certainly have said "they were subordinate for police tasks."
Therefore, concerning this paragraph 3 which we are discussing, I can only say that there was not the slightest doubt where I was concerned that the Higher SS and Police Leader was independent concerning his police tasks.
Q. Paragraph 4 makes it clear, General Speidel, that regarding combat tasks you were only to serve as a conduit between Army Group E and Schimana. If you were simply to be a conduit in that respect, one certainly can't speak of any subordination of Schimana to you in a tactical sphere unless Schimana is subordinate to you in police tasks. Paragraph 2 which refers to his subordination to you must be completely devoid of meaning.
A. Of course paragraph 2 has some meaning because it is a service regulation for Higher SS and Police leaders and through this service regulation he receives his tasks as they are laid down in paragraph 3. It is not my service regulation but that of the Higher SS and Police Leader.
Q. When you received a copy of this regulation on the list of October, 1943, and you read in paragraph 2 that Schimana was going to be subordinate to you, what did you think? In what sphere did you think would he be subordinate to you, for what tasks, what duties?
A. At the time I studied the service regulation very thoroughly, and I talked about it a lot. I beg your pardon, which was the paragraph you asked me about?
Q. Paragraph 2, in which Schimana was made subordinate to you?
A. I see. Paragraph 2. After that I read the subsequent paragraphs which are instructions for the execution, and refer to this one sentence in paragraph 2. In the following pages, from paragraph 3 onwards, it is stated in great detail what his tasks were, and to what extent he was subordinated to me. I would like to emphasize that it is not a combination which I have made today on the basis of this service regulation, but the situation is that this service regulation is an absolute confirmation of the opinion which I held at the time. I interpreted it this way at the time, and I adhered to it in this manner at the time.
Q. Let's continue with the analysis of the regulation. In paragraph 5 it makes it clear that Schimana is going to be the supreme authority of the SS and Police forces in Greece. I take it that means the SD, the Gestapo and any other units of Himmler in Greece will be subordinate to Schimana.
A. In my opinion everything that belonged to the Police was subordinated to Schimana apart from the Waffen, which were tactical troops and these in my opinion, were not subordinated to him.
Q. In paragraph 6 you are authorized to give Schimana directives which take precedence over any other directives, and in paragraph 7 you are authorized to give him restrictive directives.
A. As to operations I was in no position to pass any judgments because I was not responsible for operations. Therefore, I could not give him any restrictive directives, because I had no opportunity to do this.
However, you did not read the preceding sentence which follows the second sentence. You only said, inasmuch as he does not receive any orders from the Military Commander, but the decisive part is the preceding sentence where it says that directives and instructions for his tasks he will receive from the Reich Fuehrer SS, and within the scope of these tasks he is in a position to carry them out independently and then comes the annexation, and the next little sentence.
Q. In the second sentence you were permitted to override and restrict the policies and directives which Schimana received from Himmler, were you not?
A. I applied this sentence in the one case which I related on direct examination when I said that the setting up of indigenous units was the concern of the Higher SS and Police Leader, but I dealt with the total program because the extent of this program concerned the security of the occupation power.
I did not apply these restricting directions in any case, nor did I think I was entitled to do so, because I very carefully avoided interfering in matters of the Reichsfuehrer SS. That would have been a hopeless undertaking in that particular case because the contrast Wehrmacht SS existed, it was my opinion and attitude to leave the competencies of both spheres entirely divided because only one or the other part can be held responsible. If the Reichsfuehrer SS orders something, and I interfere in these orders I become co-responsible for a measure which I had not caused, and to which I might possibly be strongly opposed. I was, therefore, in favor of a strict separation of spheres of competency; particularly so in this case.
Q. Before we talk about what you actually did do, General, I think we ought to get it quite clear what you were authorized to do. Is it not true that from reading this order of procedure, you as Military Commander were restricted in only two ways. First, you were restricted in the sense that you were only a conduit for tactical orders which came from Army Group E to Schimana, and secondly, you were restricted in the sense of the second paragraph under Paragraph 5, in that you were authorized to employ units of the Ordungs police only with the permission of Schimana, and that except for those two limitations upon your power, Schimana was subordinate to you in police matters, and you could give him directives which take precedence over other directives and even directives which would restrict him from carrying out previous directives which he had received from Himmler.
A. No, Mr. Fenstermacher, here our opinions are divergent. I would like to read the decisive sentence again to which I refer, and that is paragraph 7 where it says the Higher SS and Police Leader receives policies and directives for the execution of these duties, i.e., police matters, from the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of German Police, and he will carry them out independently.
I would like to stress this last word, "independently". In order to make my own attitude quite clear and in order to contrast it with yours, I would like you to allow me to clarify my own opinion again, and this opinion refers to what rights I had under this service regulation. I had the authority, (a) to commit the forces of the Higher SS and Police Leader in band combat, if one can call it commitment, by assigning him an area and in this area he had to work independently on his own responsibility.
Even this possibility did no longer exist for me, as I have pointed out on direct examination, because I did not dispose over any area, and therefore Army Group E took over this task of assigning an area. The second task was the carrying out of the security measures which were dated prior to this task of fighting the bands, i.e., those measures which fell within the scope of the two months I discussed earlier on this morning.
Thirdly, he was subordinate to me as every other unit in Greece, be it police or Wehrmacht Unit, in a territorial respect.
By this I mean the troops were bound to my directives, where territorial demands and instructions by me were concerned, and I have stated in great detail, which these territorial instructions were. This comprised my task and I adhered to it.
Q. Do you believe the subordination mentioned in paragraph 2 is related only to the conduit relationship which you had between Army Group E and Schimana, outlined in paragraph 4, and the territorial subordination which all other units in your area of command had to you?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Your task, General Speidel, was to maintain public order and security in your area of your command, was it not?
A. That was my task, among other things. It was the task of all German elements in Greece; that was the task concern of the tactical leadership; the task of the Military Commander, and it was the task of the Higher SS and Police Leader. Everybody had this task within the framework of his sphere of duty.
Q. The maintenance of public order and security for a person who has no troops which he is able to command, by way of tactical operations against the partisans, is essentially a police task, is it not?
A. It is a police task, if one has police forces subordinated for this task. However, I did not have these police forces subordinated to me. As I explained before, they were subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader. In the final analysis I only had the field gendarmerie as police forces at my disposal, the field gendarmerie that was with the administrative sub-area headquarters, by way of indirect subordination.
Q. Could this be the meaning of the assignment of the Police and SS Leader to Greece, namely that of General Speidel was assigned the task of maintaining public order and security, which is essentially a police task, he must therefore have assigned to him police forces, and so we shall therefore assign to him the police forces under General Schimana to which we have just referred?
A. That would be a very natural explanation if conditions in the German Reich had been normal ones which they were not in actual fact. If a Military Commander in any country receives police forces for his disposal, then of course they ought to have been subordinate to him, but in the Third Reich that was not a matter of course, because the Reichsfuehrer SS had a dominating position on the highest level. He was more powerful than the OKW, and was very jealously concerned about the fact that the units under him retained their independence if they were employed, -- if they were committed in any occupied territory.
Mr. Fenstermacher, I would like to say in this connection what I believe I have stressed before, that I was one of those Military leaders who personally looked after everything they were responsible for. If I had considered myself responsible for these things, you may be sure that I would have concerned myself with it because I concerned myself with everything but only to the extent that this was necessary according to the extent of my responsibility.
Q I take it, General, that if Schimana rather than you had the German police subordinate to him, he also had the Greek police subordinate to him?
A The Greek police were exclusively subordinate to Schimana. He, or rather his predecessor, Strob, had received this assignment from the Reichsfuehrer SS. It was his task to organize and train the Greek police and to establish indigenous units. I was never the person who gave him an order to do this.
I might submit evidence for this statement in a public announcement of the Higher SS and Police Leader where he announces this intention to the Greek population, and that was a proclamation made without my knowledge, let alone my consent. It was therefore an exclusive task of the Higher SS and Police leader which had been invested in him by the Reichsfuehrer SS. I will admit for a man thinking along the normal organizational lines, it is difficult to understand these things that to a certain extent you have to believe me who had to work under these conditions.
Q If the Greek police were not subordinate to you in Athens, I do not suppose the Greek police were subordinate to the various subarea headquarters which were subordinate to you out in the areas distant from Athens. You mentioned seven of them, I believe.
A Yes, there were 7 administrative sub-area headquarters, and one higher sub-area administrator headquarters and an orderly connection between the sub-area administrative headquarters, and the indigenous units of the Higher SS and Police Leader did not exist to the best of my knowledge.
Q Did administrative sub-area headquarters have the Greek police operating in these areas under their command and jurisdiction?
A Whether I had Greek police there?
Q No, I am asking whether your seven sub-area headquarters had Greek police subordinate to them?
A The Greek police was officially subordinated by order of procedure or directives.
I would assume that they worked together on a local basis but the Greek police were exclusively subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader, and this by the Greek Government. The sub-area administrative headquarters had their own executive agencies.
Q Would you turn now, General, to your own document, book No. 3, at page 39?
A Yes.
Q These are the service regulations which you issued to your administrative sub area headquarters on the 16th of October 1943, that is to say, only 5 days after you yourself received the order of procedure governing the relationship between you and General Schimana. Will you turn to page 41 in paragraph 5? There you state-
DR. WEISSGERBER: Your Honor, I object to the reference to this document, because I have not yet offered this document in evidence in the case for Speidel.
MR. FENSTERMACHER: My book shows that this has been introduced as Exhibit 16, Your Honor.
PRESIDING JUSTICE BURKE: My book shows it also bears the Exhibit number 16.
DR. WEISSGERBER: Your Honor, I beg your pardon in that case.
BY MR. FENSTERMACHER:
Q You state there, General Speidel, in paragraph 5, that your various administrative sub area headquarters commander will supervise within this area, the entire civilian administration, including the Greek administrative inpertorates and police authorities?
A Yes, that is correct, and I can explain it, Mr. Fenstermacher.
First of all this provisional order of procedure is merely a provisional one as the term states, which was for the moment issued without any particular experience, so that a basis could be established for the work to be carried out.
And now let's turn to paragraph 5. It says there that the sub-area administrative headquarters were to supervise the whole of this civilian administration, tis for the purpose that the administration could be maintained, and could be on the basis of a legal order.
It says here that Greek administrative police forces are to be concerned here, and this term is further explained. It is to be subdivided into Army-
PRESIDING JUSTICE BURKE: I think it will be necessary for you to repeat part of that. You may proceed.
A I said, the sub area and administrative headquarters were to supervise the civilian administration and part of the civilian administration was the so-called administrative police, and this administrative police is subdivided in this particular paragraph as traffic, aliens, sickness, trade, fire, hunt, and field police and all of these forces of the purely civilian administration. So far I always understood, by police troops ready for police assignments at the disposal of the Greek Government, the so-called Evzones battalions and other police units which were committed for the maintenance of law and order.
The ones mentioned here are purely administrative agencies of the local administration, and the two complexes have nothing to do with each other.
Q Suppose one of the members of the Greek traffic police, or aliens police, mentioned here, had been shot, would your administrative sub-area headquarters authorize the execution of retaliation measures in reprisal for such an attack?
A No, it would not have been entitled to do that, because as I stated on direct examination, the ordering of reprisal measures were reserved for my own person, so that the sub-area administrative headquarters could not commit any hasty acts.
Q Would you turn now, General Speidel, to page 40 of Speidel Book No. 3. You state there that units of the SS Higher and Police Leader stationed within the area of the administrative sub area headquarters are bound to assist those administrative sub area headquarters upon request. By the words, "bound to assist" do you mean that if the administrative sub-area headquarters insisted upon the help of the police under the SS leader, that the SS police would have to come to their assistance from a mandatory and compulsory standpoint?
A Mr. Fenstermacher, when I incorporated this document into my own document book, I knew very well that you would ask me about that particular part. This passage represents to me a proof of the fact that a relation of subordination did not exist between the sub area administrative headquarters and the organization of the Higher SS and Police leaders. The very sentences on this page which you quoted, prove that they co-existed independently of each other, or otherwise it would have been mentioned here that they became subordinate, but at the sub-area headquarters would have been subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader.
In actual practice it was thus that a unified administrative organization was not possible in the occupied areas because the Police force insisted on its independence, and so the strange picture, resulted that in the area of a sub area administrative headquarters, there is an agency of the Higher SS and Police Leader, and that is the so-called base.
What it is supposed to do and what its tasks were, how strong it was, I cannot tell you, and their words, "bound to assist" mean the following:
If unrest occurs, if the sub area administrative headquarters would be attacked or raided, then of course the police unit is bound to help and to assist. To the best of my knowledge, there was no cooperation, no working together, only working next to each other.
In the second paragraph of this document, you can read the sentence, the already mentioned police units work together. This is a fixed term, a technical term in German military language and describes cooperation as if it was most casual. That is everywhere, where with the best will in the world, there can be no clear organization or channel of command. Then one avoids the proper regulation with the vague words, "should work together".
Q Suppose, General Speidel, that a Greek mayor or a Greek who was employed for the Germans in the area of one of your seven administrative area headquarters had been murdered, and your administrative sub area headquarters did not have the manpower to carry out reprisal measures. By virtue of the authority you gave your field headquarters in this paragraph, couldn't they ask and demand the help of the SS units in their area to carry out such reprisal measures and that such SS units had to, -- were compelled to assist them in that connection?
A If I had ordered a sub area administrative headquarters to carry out reprisal measures, then they would on principle have to refer to the nearest unit for the carrying out of this measure, and those police units were not an actual troop unit. They were administrative units, and I can therefore not tell you exactly what is meant by this term, because I have never seen such a strong point of police units.
Q.- Let's take the relationship between the Sub-Area Administrative Headquarters. If, for example, one of your Sub-Area Administrative Headquarters -- say the one in Larissa -- had reprisal measures to carry out, they could ask an demand the assistance of the SS units in the course of carrying out such reprisal measures. If the Sub-Area Administrative Headquarters had that relationship between the SS units in their area why was that not the same relationship which you and Schimana had in Athens, namely, because that you didn't have enough troops or forces subordinate to you to carry out reprisal measures you would have had to ask Schimana's assistance.
A.- Mr. Fenstermacher, when you put this question you started from the wrong assumption. You said if the Sub-area Administrative Headquarters Larissa had needed any help the police would have been under an obligation to give this assistance. I did not put it that way. My answer before was that in such cases the Sub-area Administrative Headquarters would refer to the nearest troop units. I don't even know whether a police unit was stationed in Larissa. Such a headquarters or strong point was there, but I would feel inclined to doubt that there were any troops connection with it because the 18th Police Regiment was committed for tactical purposes. In this respect your question was not quite correct.
Q.- Don't you say, in Paragraph 1 of this order of the 16th of October 1943 to your Sub-area Administrative Headquarters, which follows just five days after the receipt of the order of procedure for Schimana, which you received on the 11th of October, that the SS units are bound to assist the Sub-area Administrative Headquarters on the latter's request? If that was the relationship between the Sub-area Administrative Headquarters and the SS units in this area, wasn't there a parallel relationship between you and Schimana in the City of Athens?
A.- There were two errors contained in this question, Mr. Fenstermacher. You are referring to the order of procedure which I had already received in September, not only four days before I issued this Service Regulation.