Q To whom was the SS subordinate?
A One cannot see this from tho report here, but, at any rate, not to the Corps.
Q Could you have prevented this reprisal measure?
A No.
Q Who could have ordered and carried out this execution?
A It is not quite out of the question that these executions were ordered and carried out by the Croat police or by the German police.
Q Is this not in contradiction of the fact that this execution is included in the Daily Report of the 173rd Reserve Division?
A No, it's not in contradiction with this. The division included in their Daily Reports everything which occurred in their areas.
Q Witness, is there a possibility that the execution was carried out for the killing of German nationals?
A Yes, this possibility cannot be excluded, and there is particularly the probability that losses in escort personnel or other German civilian passengers who were also traveling in the train, occurred. These losses often did not appear in the report, but they were taken into account in the reprisal quota.
Q Is there a possibility that it was not only a reprisal measure for the sabotage attack near Sacpajora and for a surprise raid on a patrol near Vukovar?
A Yes, this is possibility--that sabotage acts and surprise raids which occurred previously were taken into account.
Q Well, then, how do you explain the text of the report here?
A The teletypes, as I have already mentioned, were always very brief, and they were set down in a telegram styles so the preceding cases for which reprisal measures were taken were not set down, but mostly only the most recent incidents were included. The other cases, however, have also to be included, as I explained yesterday from an example.
Q Is there a possibility that the number of killed German soldiers and civilians was at least as high as the number of hostages killed?
A Yes, this possibility exists.
Q I will now show you, again Document NOKW-7648, Exhibit 374, Document Book XVI, Page 3 of the English, Page 6 of the German. Did you sign this document?
A No, I did not sign for this document.
Q Did you obtain information of the entries in the War Diary for November?
A I don't think so. If I had seen them I would, in any case, have signed them and also checked them if there had been time.
Q The execution of hostages mentioned is included in Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358, Document Book XIV, Page 121 of the English, and Page 93 of the German. Further, in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI, Page 27 of the English, and Page 67 of the German. Finally, in Document NOKW-648, Exhibit No. 374, Document Book XVI, English Page 3, and German Page 6.
Does the fact that this execution of hostages appears in all three documents show, without any well-founded doubt, that they actually took place?
A Well, that is a forced conclusion because one document was taken over into the other and copies, without its correctness having been checked.
Q And I will now show you the teletype dated the 15th of November 1943, from Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI, Page 28 of the English, and Page 69 of the German. I draw your attention to Paragraph 3-d, in this teletype, dated the 15th of November 1943. Did you sign this teletype?
A No, I did not sign this teletype.
Q Is this teletype signed at all?
A No, it is not signed. There is just the usual comment "Corps Headquarters, etc."
Q Does the document submitted contain any Find of initials at all?
A No, there is also no initial to be seen on it.
Q Was it customary in your staff for teletypes and drafts to be initialed?
A If documents were submitted to me, then they were signed or initialed by me on principle, with the addition of the date. The Chief of Staff and the Ia also initialed each document on principle.
Q What do you conclude from the fact that this teletype bears no initials at all?
A From tins I conclude that this document was neither submitted to me nor to the Chief of Staff, nor to the Ia and, therefore, this document has no kind of probative value in my opinion.
Q Witness, I will now show you Document NOKW-075, Exhibit No. 358, in Document XIV, Page 119 of the English and Page 92 of the German. Is the Daily Report dated the 15th of November 1943, as contained in this document, identical with the Daily Report dated the 15th of November contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit No. 375, Document Book XVI? I'm sorry -- Document Book XVI, German Page 69, English Page 28.
A This here is an excerpt from the Daily Report of the Corps dated the 15th of November.
Q Are the texts of both documents the same?
A Yes, the texts of the documents are the same.
Q Can you comment on the question as to whether the execution mentioned in these two documents --- the execution of 13 hostages -actually took place?
A No, I really cannot say this any longer today.
Q Did you order this execution?
A No, not at all.
Q Can you remember whether you had previous knowledge of this execution?
A I can't remember this today.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: At this time, Dr. Gawlik, well take our morning recess.
(A RECESS WAS TAKEN)
Court No. V, Case No. VII.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please take their seats.
The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may continue, Dr. Gawlik.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q General, before the recess, we discussed the NOKW Document 075 which was Exhibit 358 on page 92 of the German and page 121 of the English and NOKW-658, Exhibit 375 in Volume XVI on page 28 of the English and 69 of the German. Can one see from these two documents with a clarity which excludes any doubt that the execution by troops of the 187th Division were carried out?
A No, one cannot see that with a hundred per cent certainty.
Q Who could it have been who ordered and executed the executions?
A It might have been, for instance, ordered by the police, by Croat troops or authorities and those agencies might also have carried them out, and those agencies were in no way subordinate to me.
Q For what reason would, in that case, the execution of 13 hostages be included in the daily report?
AAs I stressed frequently before, anything which occurs in the area of the LXIX Reserve Corps, even if it concerned troops not subordinate, was included in the daily report. A Croat unit near Okucani-to spell this word, O-k-u-c-a-n-i--for instance informed the 187th Reserve Division of the execution carried out by the Croat unit of those hostages.
Q Would you have been in a position to prevent the execution?
A No, in no case.
Q Can you give us any reasons?
A It was always after the execution that I was informed, as I said before. Moreover, the 187th Reserve Division which is alleged to have ordered the execution---I would not have had any possibility of giving orders to the Divisional Commander who was responsible for the Court No. V, Case No. VII.
execution and interfere in his sphere. He was responsible. He was the judicial authority and need not refer back to me first.
Q Does the possibility exist that the execution was carried out as a reprisal measure for the killing of German soldiers?
A This possibility does exist. Apart from the heavy military damage which occurred when the main railway line was interrupted, material damage also was incurred which could hardly be recompensated.
Q Does the possibility exist that in this execution we are not concerned only with the reprisal measure for the attack on the passenger train near Okucani?
A There again the previous cases for which no reprisal measure had been taken might well have been taken into account.
Q How can you explain the wording of the daily report of 15 November 1943?
A The possibility does indeed exist that this was not only a reprisal measure for the attack on the passenger train near Okucani, in accordance with the principle not to take reprisal measures for every case, but to wait until they had reached the limit in order then to take reprisal measures for previous attacks and surprise raids, for instance, no reprisal measures were taken. The destruction of a railway track near Virpocik--V-i-r-p-o-c-i-k--also some surprise attacks on the 9th and 11th, of which the daily reports unfortunately are not included here.
Q Does the possibility exist that the number of German soldiers killed in these surprise attacks was at least as big as the number of persons killed.
A The possibility exists. The report of 13 November is lacking to which reference is made. Also, previous sabotage acts and surprise attacks must have been included.
Q. I shall now hand you Document NOKW-658, which is Exhibit 375, in Volume 16, page 32 of the English, which is page 73 of the German. This is a teletype letter of 30 November 1943. Is this document which the Prosecution submitted signed by you?
A No.
Q Is this document signed by anybody?
A No.
Q Can you give us your comments on the problem whether you had knowledge of this document?
AAs my initials are not on it, one should assume that this daily report was not submitted to me. Perhaps I was absent, I don't know
Q About the reprisal measures reported under 2-C, namely the shooting of people suspected of belonging to bands, was that ordered by you?
A No, certainly not.
Q Can you tell us whether you know of this reprisal measure?
A I am afraid I can't tell you this with absolute certainty.
Q Can you tell us whether the 187th Reserve Division ordered and carried out this reprisal measure?
A It is highly likely that that reprisal measure was ordered and carried out by Croat troops, as the Croat authorities holding executive power as a rule took reprisal measures on attacks on railway lines. One should assume in this particular case that they also handled it. This is supported by the fact that this incident is not contained in the war diary. As far as I know, there were in Virpovec, (spelling) V-i-r-p-ov-e-c, there were only Croat troops stationed there, no German troops.
Q I shall now hand you NKOW-648 which is Exhibit 374, contained in Volume 16 on page 3 of the English and 8 of the German text. This is the War Diary of the Corps which on the page I mentioned speaks of reprisal measures taken in the area of the 173rd Division. Did you order that measure?
A No, I did not.
Q Can you tell us why this measure was taken against the four inhabitants?
A One cannot find that very easily from this entry. This incident is also contained in the daily report of 3 December 1943.
Q May I supplement this, your Honor, it is contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, contained in Document Book 16 on page 33 of the English and page 81 of the German. It is the entry under paragraph D. Pray continue.
A We also have the remark Ugrinovci, (spelling) U-g-r-i-n-o-v-c-i, and in that daily report of the 2nd December, reference is made to a morning report of 30 November which the Prosecution unfortunately have not submitted.
Q Can you tell us who carried out these measures?
A There again one should assume that this measure was carried out by the Croat authorities who also ordered it because the Croat authorities holding executive power would as a matter of principle take reprisal measure for acts of sabotage committed against railway lines into their own hands.
Q Now, I shall hand you the daily report of 16 December 1943 contained in Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375 in Volume 16 on page 35 of the English and page 87 of the German text. Did you sign that daily report?
A The daily report has not been signed. There is merely the usual remark at the end about the Corps Headquarters of the LXIX Reserve Corps.
Q In this connection, I shall hand you Document NOKW-073 which is Exhibit 373 contained in Volume 15 on page 75 of the English and page 102 of the German text. Are those two reports identical?
A Yes, both reports are identical. One report contains the additional remark "morning report", and that report has no signature at all, not even with a typewriter, nor has it a letter number.
Q Can you tell us whether you had knowledge of those documents?
A I no longer know that.
Q Did you order that reprisal measure contained in the document?
A No.
Q. Were you informed that it had been carried out?
A No.
Q Can you tell us whether this was a reprisal measure taken for the killing of German soldiers?
A I think this is highly likely. The morning report to which reference is made has not been submitted again.
Q Can you tell us what the ratio was between the number of German soldiers killed and hostages executed?
A I am afraid that is hardly possible as the morning report of 15 September is missing to which reference is made. Before that time, following cases occurred which were not retaliated. You can see that on the same page of this teletype letter, 87 of the German -- I am afraid I haven't got the English page number.
Q It is on page 35 of the English.
A There under paragraph D, three attacks which were not retaliated which occurred in the night from the 14th to the 15th against the main railway line in the Ludina area, Novosijek and Griese, and on the 16th of December losses are not listed because the relevant report is also lacking. Then there is a surprise attack mentioned which again was not followed by reprisal measures and occurred on the 8th of December. This may be found on page 85 of the German where it says that a hay Detachment at the road fork 7 kilometers west of Tervenka, two persons were killed, two were wounded, and four were missing.
Q General, what teletype letter is that, of what date?
A It is of the 8th of December.
Q Under what paragraph?
A It is under paragraph D. Then, there is on attack on 7 December which was not retaliated. This may be found on page 85 under paragraph E. It says there: "Losses cannot be ascertained as the details are still lacking," but no further reference is made in the later reports; and finally there is an retaliated act of sabotage which occurred on the first of December. This may be found on page 82 under "A", where it says that a goods train between Sesvete, (spelling) S-e-s-v-e-t-e, and Zagreb, which is the main railway line -- a train ran on a mine and was derailed, and two men were killed. In other words, there is a total of six attacks for which reprisal measures had not been taken; and in the case of two attacks, losses are contained in the report which has not been submitted, and in the case of the other two attacks there was a total of four killed, two wounded, and four missing.
DR. GAWLIK: If the Tribunal please, the last report may be found in Document Book Rendulic Supplementary Volume 1 on page 71 of the English. May I add that the reports are complete in the German Document Book, but they are not complete in the English version. There in Rendulic Document Book the document is complete which in the Prosecution's Document Book 16 as NOKW-658 is in complete, but in order not to give the Translation Department too much work, I desisted from including this document again in its complete form in my own document book.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Can you tell us who carried out this reprisal measure?
A Here again it is highly likely that the reprisal measure was not carried out by German troops, but was carried out by Croat authorities, and the Division merely reported what had happened in their area.
Q I shall now hand you the teletype letter of 23 December 1943 which is Document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, in Volume XVI on page 36 of the English and 88 of the German. Was the shooting reported on 23 December of 25 persons then suspects and hostages ordered by you?
A No.
Q Can you give us any reasons?
A That period of time I was on leave.
Q Can you tell us who carried out that measure?
A I do not know, but I assume that again it was carried out by Croat agencies who as a matter of principle and on their own volition carried out reprisal measures.
Q Who ordered that hostages be seized in Croatia?
AAs I said before probably the Croat authorities.
Q And who arrested the hostages?
A Most likely Croat police.
Q Did the Corps have hostage camps of its own?
A No, they did not.
Q Did the troop units under you have hostage camps?
A Not as far as I know.
Q I shall now hand you the letter of 15 January 1944 which is Document NOKW-705 which is Exhibit 378 contained in Volume 16 on page 44 of the English, 96 of the German. Does that document contradict what you have said so far?
A No. This very document shows that repeatedly I forbade units under my command to arrest hostages on their own. They had to address themselves through Croat authorities who after all were competent for these things.
Q Does this document show that hostages were arrested by military departments?
A The document has reference to police and military departments. The hostages, because of whom this report of 18 December 1943 was made, were probably arrested by the police department. The Croat authorities frequently did not make very clear distinctions between police and Wehrmacht; unless I am very much mistaken this case was cleared up in that respect, namely that the police did it.
Q I shall now hand you the daily report by the inspector of the Railway Security Guard of 3 December 1943, which is Document NOKW-073, Exhibit 373, contained in Volume 15 on page 75 of the English and 102 of the German text. Is this a report by the LXIX Reserve Corps?
A No.
Q Was the report addressed to the LXIX Corps?
A No.
Q Did you gain knowledge of this report?
A No, it is a report which is not addressed to the Corps.
Q Wasn't the inspector of the Railway Security Guards subordinate to the LXIX Corps?
A No, he was not.
Q Was the reprisal measure carried out by the units of the LXIX Army Corps?
A No.
Q Who carried it out?
A The reprisal measure as the report says was ordered by the Croat State Commissioner for Railway Security.
Q In other words, what does this document show us?
A What I said time and again that any attacks against railway lines were not retaliated by German troops, but by Croat agencies.
Q Can you tell us whether this even occurred in the area of the XXIX Reserve Corps at all?
A From the daily report one cannot see that this occurred in the Corps area. No place is named, and I do not know what actually happened.
DR. GAWLIK: This brings me to the end of analyzing Count I of the indictment. Now, I shall deal with the next Count, the arrest of hostages.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q In this connection I should like to hand you first from Document Book 14, a document which is on page 73 of the English and page 52 of the German. The number is NOKW-143, and the Exhibit number is 346. Did you sign this teletype letter?
A No.
Q Does it bear your initials?
A No.
Q Can you tell us who made the correction in handwriting of the typewritten text?
A I couldn't tell you.
Q. Did you have knowledge of this teletype letter at the time?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you order that this woman teacher in Kapola be arrested?
A. No.
Q. Who ordered this arrest?
A. I should assume that it was the Croat units to whom the company belonged, because the Croatian Captain who had deserted wanted the company to desert as well. The Croatian unit informed the division of this as a special occurrence, which had occurred in the area of the division.
Q. What do you know about the arrest of this woman teacher in Kapola?
A. This woman teacher, as far as I know, had after her husband escaped, become the contact person between his company, which was to be enduced to desert to the partisans as well. She was suspected of carrying secret intelligence concerning the Croat units and deliver them to the partisans.
Q. Was the woman teacher arrested for what her husband had done, do you mean?
A. No.
Q. Was she shot or hanged?
A. No.
Q. What do you know about her later fate and measures taken against the woman teacher in Kapola?
A. The partisans offered to exchange her for two German N.C.O.'s. The Croatian company concerned was soon afterwards transferred to Zagreb, thus any reason for the arrest of the woman teacher was removed. She was therefore released.
Q. Now, let us discuss another case from document N.O.K.W. 658, which is exhibit 375 in volume 16 on page 8 of the English and 18 of the German text, the teletype letter of 25 September 1943 and I draw your attention to the arrest of 84 persons arrested, reported under paragraph II. Did you sign this teletype letter?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Did you know about the teletype letter at the time?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us why?
A. I was on leave at the time.
Q. Did you order that these people be arrested?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us who ordered that these people be arrested?
A. I assume SS Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhofer or one of his commanding officers, because he was in charge of this operation.
Q. Were you informed of the arrests?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us why these persons were arrested by Gruppenfuehrer Kammerhofer or any other police officers?
A. I assume because they were suspected of belonging to the bands.
Q. Can you tell us what happened to them?
A. I assume that those who were innocent and in whose case it could not be proven that they belonged to the bands, they were released, the others were handed over to the Croat agencies.
Q. Now let me draw your attention to the report contained under 11c, concerning measures taken against 100 persons suspected of being members of the bands. They were taken to Brod, did you order that measure?
A No.
Q Did you know anything about it all?
A No, that was impossible because I was on leave. It is the sane report.
Q Can you tell us why those persons were arrested?
A They were under suspicion of belonging to the bands.
Q Can you tell us what happened to them?
A I assume that their cases were to be investigated in Brod, as the report said guilty persons were handed over to the Croatians and the others released.
Q To discuss another case now, I will hand you the teletype letter of 29 October 1943 on page 12 of the English in volume 16 and page 30 of the German text. This is document NOKW 658, exhibit 375 and I draw your attention to the arrest reported under IIb of 100 hostages. Did you sign that teletype letter?
A No.
Q Did you have any knowledge of this document, which the prosecution has submitted?
A I don't think so and certainly not this part of it.
Q Can you tell us why?
A The document does not show my initials. In other words I most probably have not seen it.
Q Did you order that these 100 hostages be arrested?
A No.
Q Do you know what happened to them?
A I don't
Q Then I shall hand you the teletype letter of 16 October 1943, contained in volume lb on page 16 of the English and page 39 of the German text. This is document NOKW 658, exhibit 375 and I draw your attention to the arrests reported under 11-c of the majority of the population of the villages of Paklencia and Vocavica. Can you tell us whether this report is in accordance with the facts?
A The correctness of these statements report becomes clear from the extract of the war diary of the LXIX Corps for the period between 13 July 1943 and 31 December 1943. Under the date of 17 October 1943 there is the following entry and that seems to me to be the correct thing, 187th Reserve Division reports reprisal measures carried out for the surprise attack on Novska with the arrest of 27 male hostages between the ages of 50 and 60 years, one third of whom were the railway station personnel in Novska, where it was proven that they belonged to the bands and the villages of Paklencia and Vocarica were burned down.
Q What is your explanation for the discrepancy in the statements in the teletype letter of 16 October contained in Document NOKW 658, exhibit 375 on page 16 of volume 16 and what the war diary says, which is in document 648, exhibit 374 in volume 16 on page 2 of the English and page 5 of the German?
A The teletype letter quite obviously exaggerated the whole affair, perhaps in order to emphasize the severity of the counter measures. In the war diary everything is reduced to 27 members of the bands who were taken as hostages.
Q What can we see from this discrepancy?
A The discrepancy shows that statements in teletype letters, particularly where reprisal measures are concerned, are not always reliable 100%?
Q Can you tell us what happened to those 27 male hostages?
A I assume that they were handed over to the Croat authorities.
Q Did you order their arrest?
A No.
JUDGE BURKE: At this point, Dr. Gawlik, we well take our noon recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:30 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 11:30 Hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 18 December 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
PRESIDING JUDGE BURKE: You may proceed.
ERNST DEHNER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Dehner):
Q. General, before the recess we were talking about document NOKW-658, Exhibit 375, in Document Book XVI, page 16 of the English and page 39 of the German. This was the teletype dated the 16th of October 1943, and in connection with this we were discussing the entries in the war diary, Prosecution Document 648, Exhibit 374, in Document Book XVI, page 2 of the English and page 5 of the German.
We were talking about the seizure of 27 male hostages. Can you comment on the question, General, of what happened to these 27 male hostages?
A. These 27 male hostages were in any case given over to the Croat agencies.
Q. Did you order the seizure of the hostages, General?
A. No.
Q. Can you state who ordered this measure?
A. No, I cannot do this today.
Q. Did you know anything about this measure before it was carried out?
A. No, nothing at all.
Q. Can you tell us why the population from these villages was seized?
A. These were two notorious band strong point which participated repeatedly in acts of sabotage against the main railway line and in surprise raids. Membership of the bands was definitely established.
Q. Can you state what might have happened to these people?
A. In any case they were screened and those against whom no band membership could be proved, were released. The others, I assume, were handed over to the Croat agencies.
Q. I come to another case. Now, I will show you the document, teletype dated the 3rd of November 1943, Document NOKW-507, Exhibit 358, in Document Book XIV, page 112 of the English and page 88 of the German.
What is this document about?
A. In any case, it's a copy.
Q. Is it a certified copy?
A. No, it is not a certified copy and there is also no reference number on it.
Q. Did you know this document submitted by the prosecution when you were a Commanding General?
A. No.
Q. Can you make any comment about the correctness of this copy?
A. According to the document submitted, it is the copy of a teletype, - a teletype dated the 3rd of November 1943, and underneath it states, "Daily report for the 4th of November." That is impossible, and this document is also very unreliable, because it bears no signature or initial or any other mark of this kind.
DR. GAWLIK: Here, in addition, your Honors, I would like to state that these are not mistakes in the mimeographed documents, but the mistakes are in the photostatic copy submitted. The document books are copied correctly.
Q. I would now like to draw your attention to the facts under figure 2-a which reports the seizures of hostages. Did you order the seizure of those hostages?
A. No, I did not order this.
Q. Before these hostages were seized did you know about the intended measure?
A. No, I received no knowledge of this.
Q. Was Regiment No. 150 subordinate to the 187th Reserve Division?
A. I can't say this today with any certainty. It could also have been a Croat troop unit.
Q. On the basis of the teletype can you state why the hostages were seized?
A. In any case there was here again the suspicion of band membership. Jamina, here on the map, was a notorious band strong point and German troops had frequently been fired on from this place.
Q. On the basis of the document submitted, can you state what happened to these people?
A. I can't say today with absolute certainty. I assume here, too, that these people were screened as to their band membership and the innocent were released and those people who belonged to the bands were handed over to the Croat agencies.
Q. I now come to another case. I show you from Document Book XV pages 77, 78 of the English, page 103 of the German, Document NOKW-073, Exhibit 373. I would like to point out, first of all, that this is not the teletype of the 15th of December 1943 as stated on page 77 and page 78 of the English and on page 103 of the German. According to the photostatic copy submitted the seizure of the 220 hostages is contained in a teletype of the 8th of December 1943, and insofar as this is concerned the copies contained in the English and German document books are incorrect.
Did you sign the document submitted?
A. No, I did not sign it.
Q. Can you comment on the question about whether you had any knowledge of the events contained the document dated the 8th of December 1943?
A. No, this is impossible for the one reason that this is an army report which went on to higher quarters, and because the corresponding corps report is missing.
Q. Did you order the seizure of the 220 hostages?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell us whether you had any knowledge of the seizure of these hostages?
A. No