DR. SEIDL: Yes. Witness, do you have this document before you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did you write this letter?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I wrote it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The contents of it show that you gave the directives as to the working hours of the concentration camp inmates, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Proceed.
DR. SEIDL: So far as the documents are concerned contained in Document Books Nos. 15 and 16, I have no questions to put to the witness. These documents are self-explanatory in the speaking of and referring to the SS enterprises of the WVHA.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, now I shall turn to the Document Book No. 17, please, and in there you will find document NO-554, Would you take a look at this please. It is on page 33 of the German Document Book?
THE PRESIDENT: We will have to send for that book. You have skipped ahead of us a little too fast. Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I am apprised of a fact, unofficially, that there is a matter concerning next Monday that you are all interested in. If some one can tell us what it is about, I would like to hear it.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, this coming Monday is Whitsuntide, and this is quite a holiday for the German population. On this day all the shops are closed, and we would appreciate it if the Tribunal would give us the opportunity, if it could be possibly arranged, with regard to the importance of that day, that there be no session. I heard that the Tribunal before which the Flick case is being heard will also have a recess for that day. However, I am not telling that but with necessary reservations, because I am not quite sure about it.
THE PRESIDENT: It is a religious holiday. It is a holiday.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, it is a religious holiday. It is a legal holiday for the German population.
THE PRESIDENT: And it has always been observed in Germany as a holiday.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I shall try to persuade my colleagues. If you will give me just a moment I think I can possibly persuade them. I have persuaded them. Well, the Tribunal will be happy to recess then from Friday noon until Tuesday morning.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I shall now proceed with NO-554, which is on page 32 of the English Document Book, and which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 448, in Document Book No. 17, at page 33 of the German Document Book. This document refers to a correspondence which deals with loans to the SS Industry, including loans of the Reichardt fund. I will ask you now, witness, who it was that disposed of these Reinhardt funds, was this fund at the free disposal of the WVHA?
A. The Reinhardt funds were Reich funds. They were not at the free disposal of the WVHA.
Court2, Case 4
Q. Now I shall come to Exhibit 450. This is Document NO-063which is on Page 80 of the English document book, Document Book No.17, and on Page 62 of the German document book. The subject of this document is the orders on hand for industries in the SS Labor Camp in the District of Lublin, on the 3rd of November, 1943. I ask you, Witness, who was it installed these Labor camps in the Lublin District, and who, were thy subordinate to?
A. The labor camps in the district of Lublin had been installed by the local SS and police leader, Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik, and they were also subordinate to him.
Q. How was it the transfers of property took place which are mentioned in Appendix No.2 of this report, how was the transfer effected to the Reich?
A. As far as I know the Reichsmark values were sent to a Berlin account, and in order to put it at the disposal of the Reich the account was written out in the WVHA. The amounts in foreign exchange were transferred to the Reichs bank directly.
Q. Who was it that ordered the taking over of these enterprises by the WVHA, and who was it that ordered that the labor camp of CracowPlasudur by changed into a concentration camp?
A. The transfer of these enterprises through the WVHA was carried out in the year of 1943, due to the transfer of Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik, upon Himmler's orders, through the WVHA. The change of the camp, Cracow-Plascow, into a concentration camp took place upon Himmler's orders.
Q. Then, Witness, I shall come to NO-1044, which was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 452, in Document Book No. 17 on Page 143 of the English, and on Page 132 of the German document book. This is a report which deals with the experimental station for nutrition, and I ask you now, Witness, was that experimental station set up in order to employ inmates, and what was the task of this experimental station?
A. The way this document shows, the fact is not correct. The German Experimental station for Nutrition and Food did not have the task, and was not established for that purpose to employ inmates, and though the work of concentration-camp inmates was employed, that is where the position or the situation of the enterprose permitted such a use, however, the tasks were entirely different ones.
For instance, on the two experimental stations, Ravensbrueck and Komturei, they carried out an experiment with a biological economic use which was to run for a period of ten years. This property had been bought for that purpose, and an experiment was to be carried out to see how far through natural cultivation the elimination of artificial fertilizers, would be possible. That is a task which was based on Himmler's reformatory ideas. However, the German Experimental Station had other estates in the Steiermark such as Boelsental, Autal, Bretsteintal. In Bretsteintal they just had a small mountain farm where experiments with horse breeding and sheep breeding were being carried out. A further experimental station was in Vogtland near Hof where also experiments were being carried out with the breeding of a certain species of sheep that had been extinct and which for its special quality of wool was sought. In this property there was also a special experiment in weavery. The Experimental Station had some more enterprises in there. However, generally speaking, at Komturei and Ravensbrueck and then of course at Dachau, concentration-camp inmates worked, and also in the spice mill there. However, the sole purpose was not to employ concentration-camp inmates.
Q. I shall now proceed to the discussion of the documents which the Prosecution introduced in evidence with regard to the question of the extermination of the Jews. In other words, I shall turn to those documents contained in Document Books 18 and 19. Witness, you joined the National Socialist Party very early, didn't you? What was your opinion concerning the Jewish question yourself to which the party program takes up some position, and shat is your opinion on the solution of this question?
A. When I joined the party neither Jewish questions nor other racial questions moved me to join the party, and as I have stated on the first day of my examination already, it was my interest in the social sphere of the life of the German laborers that moved me to join the party.
Apart from that only defense questions, played a part in that because I was a soldier. At the moment I joined the party I did not deal with the Jewish question, nor did I deal with any other racial questions, and only after that I learned more facts about it through literature and other publications. With regard to the Jewish question, as I personally had no opportunity to gather experience of my own, I had no actual opinion on that. Therefore, I saw no necessity for the solution of the Jewish problem from my own experience. That was the reason why I didn't deal with that question, neither politically nor propapandishally.
Q. The Prosecution introduced as Exhibit 457 an excerpt from the sentence of the International Military Tribunal which deals with the persecution of the Jews, in Document Book No. 18, on Page 1 in both the English and German texts. This is document NO-2610, and I ask you, Witness, when were you for the first time aware of Hitler's measures, the aim of which was the extermination of the Jews?
A. Measures, having heard of measures? Well, after all we all went through those things in Germany. That is the measures that were taken by the Reich Government and it was published in the press.
Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you. Those are not measures that were aimed at the extermination of the Jews, and what I want to know from you is when you first found out or gained knowledge of the fact, or rather, the measures as they are contained in the judgment of the International Military Tribunal.
A. The first official news I received of an extermination program of the Reich government I had through Himmler's speech in Posen early in October, 1943.That was the first time when I officially heard about the extermination program.
Q. And you reacted to this speech in the manner in which you already described yesterday, or the day before yesterday, to this Tribu nal?
A. Yes.
Q. That is by speaking with Himmler?
A. Yes, at least I tried to speak with Himmler about it.
Q. I shall now turn to Document 3363-PS, Document Book No.18 on Page 7 of the German, and I am afraid I haven't the page in the English document book because the document was missing in my copy of the document book. This is a teletype of the chief of the Security police Chiefs of the special task units of the Security Police of the 21st of September, 1939?
A. No, I had no knowledge of the contents.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document NO-710-PS in Document Book No. 18, on Page 7 of the English document book. This is a letter of Reichsmarchall, ex-Reichsmarschall Goering to the Chief of the Security Police of the SD, dated the 31st of July, 1941. At the time Heydrich was Chief of the Security Police of the SD. I ask you now, Witness, did you at the time or later on gain knowledge of the contents of this letter from Goring to Heydrich?
A. No.
Q. What were the activities of the Security Police in the Occupied Territories? The Prosecution deals with these documents in Prosecution Exhibits 460 to 465. That is, Document 3636-PS. Furthermore, Document 3636-PS, Document 1104-PS, and Document 3257PS. I ask you now, witness, did you or any other agency of the WVHA have anything to do with the activities of these special task troops in the Eastern territories?
A. Neither I nor my agency subordinated to me in the WVHA had anything to do with the special task troops.
Q. I proceed to Document 1643-PS. That is in document book on page 24. It is in Document Book 18, on page 76 of the German. It was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 466 and deals with the concentration camp of Auschwitz. This is a letter which you yourself wrote on November 1942, addressing it to the Reichsminister of Finance in Berlin. I ask you, in this connection, witness, what were the prospects for enlarging Auschwitz? And what were the reasons for installing this so-called District of estates.
A. The regulating of thus matter had nothing to do with the territory of concentration camps as such. In the territory outside the concentration camp which was of considerable size and primarily and consisted of cultivating lands and woods-- clear conditions were to be created as to the Community Law. And during the construction of the special pits for water, and also during road construction we had to carry on negotiations with three to six communities--although the SS was the beneficiary of that territory. That was the reason why the legal conditions were to be simplified in order to eliminate these difficulties. This, however, is no exceptional case. The same procedure was used there as would have been used in a special training field. That is, regardless of whether it was a training field for the SS or for the Wermacht, they had their own special estates were they could carry out their training. As soon as two or three communities came into that sphere of interest, the territory of the concentration camp itself was large enough and was also sufficient for the construction projects.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document 1276-PS-
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Before you leave Exhibit 466--this is a letter written by you, is it?
A. Yes, that is correct, Your Honor. And in the-
Q. And in it you propose to take additional land for the concentration camp of Auschwitz, to make it larger?
A. No, Your Honor. We had enough property around there. The competence as to community Law in this large territory was to be cleared. I just explained that in the entire area there were six communities, and that when it was proved, for instance, that when wells were built, etc, there were difficulties because we had to negotiate the whole thing with six communities. That was the reason why these six communities were to consolidate the territory which used for building purposes or agricultural purposes, into one single property, a so-called Gutsbezirk, in German. The same is applied to all the training fields used for the soldiers. That was nothing new, nothing special.
Q. It was so that all the different parcels should be under one ownership?
A. Yes, that is quite correct.
Q. And in Carrying out that plan, you proposed to pay only Racial Germans for what was taken?
A. No.
Q. Now you say no--out read this sentence with me; "Racial Germans should be compensated for their estates in money or in allotting other ground properties to them."
A. Your Honor, I don't quite see what the passage is you are reading.
Q. In the next to the last paragraph it reads. "The SS suggests that the Reich Commissar for the securing of the German element--" Do you have the right page?
Do you have the document?
A. No; not yet, Your honor.
DR. SEIDL: I believe it is on page 38.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is Document 1643-PS.
A. Yes, I have that, Your Honor.
DR. SEIDL: It is the sixth line from below, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Sixth line from the bottom.
A. It says here the Office of the Reich Commissar for the etc, etc, etc.
DR. SEIDL: The office for the consolidation of the German Nationalism agrees on principle ...
A. Yes, that is it.
THE PRESIDENT: The second sentence in that paragraph.
A. I have it, Your Honor.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. "Racial Germans should be compensated for their estates in money or in allotting other ground properties to them." Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. Was their any suggestion to compensate Poles or Jews or the Church for property taken from them?
A. Well, I do not know that, Your Honor. Those questions were dealt with by the Reichs Commissioner for the German Racials, or then by other agencies. I don't know how they dealt with it.
Q. This is your letter, sir. This is your letter.
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any suggestion in your letter that anybody else except Racial Germans should be paid for what was taken away from them?
A. I could not tell you that, Your Honor. You see, I don't know exactly all -- All I know, it was agricultural country and that it was wooded areas. I don't know who dealt with it. I believe that the question of paying for church property was also taken care of here in this document.
Q. Where?
A. On page 43, Your Honor. It is on page 43. I see something here.
"The representative of the expert of the Reichs Ministry of Finance drew the attention to the fact that against the release of church property which is within that area of the concentration camp Auschwitz, there are no doubts as to that matter with the Reichsfuehrer-SS, no misgivings whatever. The Reichs Finance Administration, however, has only the right of disposal over church property at that moment when the property is taken by the authorities of the RSHA".
This agricultural country is being taken here. In other words, this is nothing but an administrative matter. I don't know exactly.
Q. Do you understand me now. Your letter says that the property which was used to enlarge the camp at Auschwitz came from six different sources; 1) Jewish and Polish private land owners; 2) towns in which most of the industrial property belonged to the Poles and Jews; 3) the Polish State; 4) the community; 5) the church, and 6) Racial Germans. Now, I am reading those from your letter, and the next thing you say is that of those six, Racial Germans shall be paid for property which is taken--but nobody else.
A. Yes; well, I believe that the others were not paid--of course only the Germans were paid here, and the rest of the territory was confiscated.
Q. That is the point.
Q. Now I shall proceed to Document 2376- PS, which is on page 66 of the English, on page 83 of the German, in Document Book No. 18. This is an affidavit of Rudolf Mildner, which the prosecution introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 469. It says on page 2, the following, literally:
"Orders of the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, concerning the type of labor employment of the prisoners and the extermination of the Jews, so far as I could gather from conversations with comrades of the SIPO went directly through Obergruppebfuehrer Pohl, Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks, head of the Amtsgruppe D and the commandants of the concentration camps as "top secret" either written or orally." End of quotation.
I ask you, witness, is it correct that all the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler's orders which refer to the extermination of Jews went through your office?
A. No orders went through me that dealt with the extermination of Jews.
Q. I now proceed to Document 3944-PS, Document Book 18 on page 104 of the German, at page 81 of the English. This is an affidavit of Emil Puhl. He used to be the former Vice-President of the German Reichsbank; this was introduced by the prosecution as Exhibit 470. In connection with this exhibit, I ask you, from whom did you receive the order to have negotiations with Vice-President Buhl in this matter?
A. I received the order from Himmler.
Q. Do you know what values they were talking about there and where these values came from?
A. At the time I did not know it. Himmler simply told me that considerable amounts of values that were coming from the Government General and had been confiscated and in the East were to be sent to the German Reichsbank.
Q. What were the arrangements you made with Puhl?
A. First of all I called Vice-President Puhl -- I called him up by telephone and I asked him whether his minister who had spoken to Himmler about this matter had informed him about it. He said that he had heard about it.
However, he forbade me to tell anybody about it and to call on him in the Reichsbank. I did that, and we agreed that everyone of his collaborators' staff had to have an expert with him who could then work on the further execution of this matter. Then later on I transferred Hauptsturmfuehrer Melmer from my own staff of the WVHA for that particular task. I ordered him in case such a transport should arrive at Berlin to see to it from the WVHA that the transport be immediately forwarded to the Reichsbank. I expressly forbade him to take anything from those transports into the WVHA. I forbade him to open it or to bring it to any closer contact with the WVHA, but to limit him self to forwarding them to the Reichsbank and deliver them there.
Q. How was it the clearing took place with the Reichsbank?
A. The clearing with the Reichsbank did not take place. The transports that were coming in were transferred to the Reichsbank for good.
Q. Did you ever see one of those transports yourself.
A. No, I saw no such transport.
Q. These deliveries, were they in connection with the fund that had been mentioned by Funk concerning the financing of SS enterprises?
A. We had no fund with Funk.
Q. However, you know that such a fund has been mentioned?
A. No.
Q. Now, I shall proceed to Document NO-724, on page 85 of the English in Document Book 18, on page 108 of the German. This is a letter of the Defendant Frank to the SS administrator in Lublin and to the Chief of the Administration of the concentration camp of Auschwitz. The letter is dated 26 September, 1942. The subject of this letter is the use of property of Jews who had been resettled and I ask you now, Witness, who was it that issued the necessary orders for that?
A. I assume that the orders had been issued by Himmler. However, I couldn't say anything further about this matter, because I did not work on that myself.
Q. With reference to the development of the so-called Reinhardt Action, the prosecution Exhibits Nos.
473, 475 deal with it -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Going back to Prosecution Exhibit 472, this letter that Counsel has just asked you about is signed by Frank, Defendant Frank. Defendant Frank was your immediate subordinate, was he not?
WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't he discuss a matter of this importance with you?
WITNESS: I couldn't tell that for sure, because the whole matter is based on Himmler's decree.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He was working under you, this defendant, and you mean to say that he didn't discuss a matter of this importance with you and let you know what he was doing about it?
WITNESS: It is possible that we might have discussed this letter.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: A matter of this importance -- all this money -he didn't discuss it with you at all?
WITNESS: Yes, he might have discussed it with me.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Prosecution Exhibit 473 to 475. These are the documents NO-056, NO-060, and NO-061 in Document Book No. 18 and on pages 114, 116, and 118 in the German and on pages 92 and 94 of the English. These documents deal with the development of the Action Reinhardt. I ask you now, Witness, what did you know at the time about the so-called Reinhardt Action? Who did you transfer the values to and what was the procedure used when doing so?
A. The first time that I heard of the Reinhardt Action in this form was after the examination of the report which Standartenfuehrer Vogt had written in June 1943 in Lublin, when he had audited the funds there and on that opportunity came across certain money that had come in and came from Reinhardt's action. Prior to that, a report had been sent through Amtsgruppe B to Himmler a few months prior to that which dealt with the delivery of textiles but I could not gain a clear picture from that because the entire matter had been kept very secret especially by Globocnik. After the auditing in June 1943 for the first time this term "Reinhardt Action" came up. The Reinhardt Action or, rather, this report was held by Globocnik until the end of 1943 and on the basis of one of Himmler's decrees we had to take over the further execution of the entire matter as of the 1st of January 1944, that is how things went.
Q. I shall now proceed to Document NO-606, which was introduced by the prosecution as Exhibit 151. It was already in Document Book 5 before. It's in Document Book No. 18 on pare 128 of the German and on page 123 of the English Document Book. In connection with this document, Witness, I wish to ask you, did the WVHA exert a control over the stocks of clothing that were in Lublin and Auschwitz?
A. No, we had no control over that.
Q. I shall now proceed to Document NO-1257. It is in Document Book No. 18, on page 128 of the English and on page 133 of the German Document Book. This is a report which you wrote on the 6th of February 1943, concerning textiles and material that could be used after the Jews had been resettled. The prosecution introduced this document as Exhibit 479. I ask you now, Witness, upon whose orders were these stocks delivered to the organizations that received them, as is stated in this report?
A. These organizations were defined by Himmler and they were reported to us by Brandt from his personal staff.
Q. As part of the Document NO-1257, the prosecution introduced a letter from the Reichsfuehrer SS of the 15th of January 1943, which is addressed both to you and the SS-Oberpruppenfuehrer Krueger. I ask you what steps did you take after receiving this letter? This letter is on page 137 of the German Document Book.
A. Yes. Well, there was a conference about this letter between Krueger and myself. Krueger then, as this whole matter happened within his sphere of activity had this matter taken care of by his economic expert.
Q. Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger was the Higher SS and Police Leader East with his main office in Cracow, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. I shall now proceed to Document NO-3034. This document is in Document Book No. 19. It is on page 21 of the German Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: You went very lightly over this letter from Himmler to Pohl and Krueger. You asked for an explanation of it, but I don't know what it was.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, you mean the letter of Himmler to Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger and Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl of the 15th of January 1943?
THE PRESIDENT: In which Himmler says: "I request Pohl to clear up and arrange these matters to the last detail, as the strictest accuracy now will spare us much vexation later." Well, what did Pohl do when Himmler said that he expected him to clear up and arrange these matters? Did you get this letter?
WITNESS: Yes, I received this letter.
THE PRESIDENT: And what did you do about it?
WITNESS: I saw the contents of this letter and I discussed Himmler's order with Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger. We met in Berlin. I believe that he came to Berlin quite often and, as he was the Higher SS and Police Leader, we agreed that he discuss the matter with his administrative agency that he clear up the matter by employing a person that he had on his staff in Cracow. We agreed entirely in this matter.
THE PRESIDENT: Everybody discussed it and agreed, but what did you do about it -- anything?
WITNESS: Well, as we had agreed about that, Krueger took over the carrying out of this order. We agreed as far as the execution was concerned, and he took it over, because it was within his sphere of activities, through his administration, you see.
THE PRESIDENT: In spite of Himmler's having designated you, Kruger took it over?
WITNESS: Well, one of the two could do it.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
WITNESS: Because after all we would have to use a special man for that purpose. It was simpler, much simpler this way.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't suppose that Krueger is dead, is he?
WITNESS: I do not know that, Your Honor.
Q. I shall now proceed to Document NO-3034, which is in Document Book No. 19. It is on page 21 of the German and on page 18 of the English Document Book. This document was introduced as Exhibit 485 of the Prosecution. It is a letter of Himmler dated the 22nd of September, 1943, and it is addressed to you as Chief of the WVHA and also to SS-Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik. In connection with this letter, I ask you, Witness, did Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik after the 31st of December 1943 hand over to you the account on the Fund Reinhardt I which we are discussing here?
A. Yes, the WVHA the first of January 1944 took over the entire development of Action Reinhardt, or Reinhardt Action.
Q. I shall now proceed to five other documents. They refer to a correspondence between Globocnik and Himmler. As between Globocnik and yourself this was introduced by the Prosecution as Nos. 487, 488, 489 and 450. The correspondence concerning Action Reinhardt is the subject of this matter. The documents in detail consist of the following: NO-064, Document Book No. 19, at page 22 of the German, and Page 22 of the English Document Books; Document NO-059, on page 29 of the German Document book, and on page 27 of the English Document Book. Furthermore, Document NO-062, on page 34 of the German and page 31 of the English Document books, and then Document NO-063, on page 37 of the German and page 35 of the English Document Books. In the face of these documents I will ask you, witness, how was it that SS-Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik carried out the special task "G" of the WVHA?
A. The special task "G" in the WVHA never existed, and SS-Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik never did belong to the WVHA, and he was not subordinate to me. The special department "G" as special task "G", as he called it, was a special administrative department which he had set up in Lublin for the execution of his task. He set that up himself, because later I had seen in Lublin in June 1943, in the auditing department there, that the personnel at that local administration, which was subordinate to him, had been transferred to him for the execution of his task, and with this personnel, by using additional help, which was at his disposal as SS and Police Leader, he formed this special task "G". This department, however, never did belong to the WVHA.
Q. Did he ever have at his disposal any personnel from the WVHA?
A. I did not detail one single man to Lublin for this particular purpose from Berlin.
Q. I shall now proceed to Document NO-059, which I already mentioned and which is introduced as Exhibit No. 488. Globocnik reports here that these helps came from the WVHA, is that correct?
A. That can only be understood to mean that the personnel of the Standort Administration of Lublin, as expert personnel, was part of the WVHA. But once detailed the personnel came under the authority of the Higher SS and Police Leader. The personnel of this Standort Administration at Lublin had not been detailed to Lublin for this purpose. It was already there prior to that, and Globocnik simply used this personnel for his own purpose without asking me.
Q. In the same document it states in the second paragraph on page 29 of the German, and on page 27 of the English Document Books, and I shall quote: "The use and materialization of the valuables were carried out according to the directives of Reichsfuehrer SS." I ask you now if you know of the directives, or these regulations respectively of the Reichsfuehrer -SS?
A. The directives of the Reichsfuehrer SS must have come to us, as we were later on dealing with the development of the whole matter. The disposition of the directives that took place in WVHA did take place. That was the reason why they should have been known to us.
Q. If I understand you correctly you say that the WVHA was only winding up this matter with the competent Reich Agencies. Which were these Reich agencies?
A. First of all the Reich Finance Ministry, with the Reich Main Treasury, and the Reichsbank of Berlin, as far as the textiles were concerned, the Reich Economy Ministry was competent, and, apart from that in this auditing also the Reichsrechnunghof took part, that is, the Reich Auditing Department.
Q. These values, were they actually transferred to the WVHA, or did the WVHA only deal with the balancing and accounting of them?
A. I have given my men a clear order that the values which come from Lublin to me to be transferred immediately to the Reichsbank, for the WVHA was located in a number of renting houses, and I had no security measures, to be able to keep such valuables in there for even one night.
THE PRESIDENT: This report I am reading from, Exhibit No. 488, says that jewels, trinkets, watches and the like were assorted according to their value, and were delivered to the main Office for Economy and Administration. Was that you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is I.
A. Then under 5: "Valuable items of different type, such as stamps, coins, and the like were assorted and delivered to the SS Main Office for Economy and Administration," and that is you?
A. Yes.
A. Is that statement true? Were they delivered to you?
A. That statements true. This statement is true. However, they were not transferred to me.
Q. Well, what do you mean by that. Were they delivered to you, and you say yes, but "they were not transferred to me."
A. No, the valuables were not delivered to the WVHA. These were not accepted there, but through the WVHA they were transferred to the Reichsbank. That is what was said in paragraph 2, Your Honor.
Q. You were used as the channel for getting them into the Reichsbank?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew that transaction was going on?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you knew where the property came from?
A. Yes, I knew that they came from Auschwitz and Lublin.
Q. Did you see the report of the total amount of property taken from the East?
A. Yes, I saw that report, yes.
Q. Exhibit No. 489?
A. Yes.
Q. There were four and one-half million Reichsmarks in bank notes?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you see that?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. There were a million and three-quarter Reichsmarks in coins and currency?
A. Yes.
Q. And there were thirty-six million and more in jewels and other valuables?
A. Yes.
Q. No, forty-three million.
A. Yes.
Q. And nearly nine million in precious metals?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you think that all came from?
A. Your Honor, this did not arise as a delivery in one single transaction or transfer.
Q. Oh, no I know that.
A. The set up here, however, was that I received those lists after the action was completed.
Q. All right. When you did get the list of the grand total, where did you think those millions of marks came from?
A. When I got the report then I could account with some sort of an idea that might have had something to do with the extermination of the Jews.
Q. Well, you had a good idea, not some sort of an idea; you knew exactly where it came from, didn't you?
A. I did not know against whom it was directed, however, I could imagine that it was in connection with the extermination of the Jews. That was clear to me.
Q. You knew it was not a present from somebody?