It is a letter of Himmler's to you in which you are requested to contact Prof. Borsche for the manufacture of some sort of secret weapon.
I ask you now, witness, did you comply with that request? And what happened in the entire matter?
A. Prof. Borsche came to see me. The question was the housing of an engine factory. This housing was to be fixed in some place, in some sort of a tunnel near Longwy. And Borsche wanted to have concentration camp inmates for that industry. However, I believe that this was not put into execution because the installation of that plant could not be realized due to the military situation at that time -in 1944, that is.
Q. Prosecution introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 359 a letter of the 24th of May 1944 which you sent to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler dealing with fortifications and the construction of fortifications of the Central Russian Construction Group.
This is Document NO-1623, Document Book No, 13, on page 30 of the German and page 31 of the English document book.
I ask you witness, in connection with this document, did you, yourself, detail the assignment of those construction groups for the fortifications?
A. No. The construction groups in the East were under the economic expert, and their assignment was effective when the front retreated by incorporating them into similar formations. I believe that Front Laborers Formations were also out of there, and also a few other units, which partly were under the Army. I believe that the entire centralization of these forces was done by the commander of the rear and this construction group also belonged to them. I, myself, had nothing to do with this assignment.
Q. I shall then proceed to Document NO-2611 -BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. If you had nothing to do with this assignment, why did you write this letter and make this report?
A. Well, the construction group -- in other words, the SS Construction Group -- was part of the entire assignment group that belonged to the SS, and I already said that it belonged to the economic expert, and the economic export, in turn, was subordinated to the WVHA.
That is how the report went through the WVHA to Himmler.
Q. Well, you made the report yourself. You signed it, didn't you?
A. Yes, of course, I wrote the report. It is nothing but a special preparation of Amtsgruppe C in the WVHA.
Q. Well, you had supervision of that Amtsgruppe, didn't you?
A. All reports which went through the Amtsgruppen to Himmler had to he signed by me. This applies to this, too.
Q. So you had some authority over it or you wouldn't have had authority to sign the report?
A. Well, I just said that -- I have been saying that all the time: Amtsgruppen C, B, and C were subordinated to me directly.
Q. Well, I understood you to testify that you had nothing to do with it, and had no authority over it, and just denied it all.
A. I only learned about this assignment through that report, and that only insofar as SS units were participating in the assignment itself. In other words, who ordered the assignment, I don't know either because, I have said, at least I assumed at the time, that the commander -
Q. In other words, you just gave reports ever something that you had no authority ever knowing whether the information was correct or not -- you just signed the report and sent it in?
A. That is right.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Exhibit No. NO-2611, Document Book 13, on page 87 of the English and on page 111 of the German. This was introduced as Exhibit 366 and is a letter concerning the assignment of the 5th and 6th SS Construction Brigade while building fortifications and supply installations. From this letter it can be seen that the report itself was made by Kammler.
I ask you, witness, who, generally speaking, ordered such an assignment?
A. Well, when construction brigades in the rear were used, then Himmler, together with the OKW discussed that with Jodl, and Himmler then issued the order for assignment. The assignment then took place under Kammler's leadership -- or under his collaborators. The report itself came from Kammler and went through me to Himmler.
Q. I shall proceed to Document 2144, Document Book No. 13, on page 88 of the English, and page 113 of the German document book. It was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 368, and it is a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS in his capacity as commander-in-chief of the Reserve and chief of the armament, to the Lieutenant-General Dr. Kammler, of the 6th of August 1944. In this letter it says, and I shall quote:
"1.) I confer upon you, with responsibility, the carrying through of all preparations for the utilization capacity of the V-2.
"2.) The utilization capacity has to be attained as quickly as possible.
"3.) You have every necessary authority.
"4.) You are subject, in this matter, only to my orders as well as to the orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the reserve and Chief of the Army Armament, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Juettner.
"5.) I request a weekly report on what has been achieved."
I ask you now, witness, wasn't it a fact that prior to that Gruppenfuehrer Kammler, as chief of the Special staff, was responsible for important construction projects of this field, and what can be seen with reference to this letter and with reference to the competency of the office of which you were in charge? You, yourself, were not mentioned at all in this letter.
A. This document has an entirely different sense. It has nothing to do with the construction development of the "V" weapons, but it refers to an extension of this order, namely, the use of these "V" weapons at the front. It is actually the appointment of Kammler to the commanders of units which were being employed for the use of "V" weapons in the front line.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document NI-638. It is on page 126 of the German document book and on page 96 of the English. It was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 372, and discusses a Blitz letter of the Reich Minister for Armament and War Production to a number of agencies, and is dated 9 October 1944. The subject of this letter is "The request and the use of concentration camp inmates". This says here that there is a new regulation about requesting inmates. I ask you now, witness, what were the reasons for the change and how far did you participate in it yourself? You, yourself, received a copy of this letter of the Reichsminister for Armament and War Production, as can be seen from paragraph 6 of the distribution.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A The suggestion for this new arrangement came from the Reichminister for Armament and War Production himself. With the procedure used so far, certain deficiencies resulted and we had found out that employers received labor one time through the Labor Office and the other time through concentration camps. It was established that from that moment on all requests for concentration inmates had to go through the Labor Office also, so that a double request by the employers could be detected by him and eliminated.
Q The last question, Witness, concerning the entire complex of labor assignments of the concentration camp inmates: The labor assignment of these inmates was the immediate reason for the organizational incorporation of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps into the WVHA. The evidence in trials which took place, particularly in the trials before the International Military Tribunal have shown that the seizure of labor itself both in Germany and outside of Germany was first of all the task of the Office of Gauleiter Sauckel in his capacity as plenipotentiary General for Labor Assignment. I ask you now, Witness, did you at any time have any meeting with Sauckel in his capacity as Plenipotentiary General for Labor Assignment? Did you have any discussions which referred to the labor assignment of foreign laborers, or, did you at any time have negotiations with Sauckel with reference to the seizure of foreign laborers?
A I did not have one single official discussion with Sauckel, nor did I know that other agencies of the WVHA had discussions with Sauckel. I had no influence on the official procedure of Sauckel's agency, nor was I ever able to find out any happening in the course of which the labor that had been procured by Sauckel's agency had been transferred or turned over to concentration camps. In this connection, that is, with regard to the procurement of labor, there were no connections between myself and Sauckel. We only put those laborers to work who were in the concentration camps where they had been sent by the Gestapo and Secret State Police and all that happened here was a col Court No. II, Case No. 4.laboration with the Ministry of Armament and War Production with which the requests of the employers had been coordinated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In other words, you mean to say this, that you didn't have any conferences with Sauckel about the procurement of labor and that any labor that he procured and was subsequently sent to the concentration camp, then you allocated it to industry and other organizations, is that correct?
WITNESS: No, Your Honor, that is not the case. I did not have any contact with the labor that had been provided by Sauckel and the labor that went through Sauckel's agency to Germany was transferred to such camps with which neither I nor my agency had anything to do. I know of no case where Sauckel transferred labor to the concentration camps -- the labor that had come through his agency, nor do I know if there were any labor camps that were immediately under Sauckel's supervision, nor if the laborers were transferred to plants. I had nothing to do with Sauckel's agency, nor did I collaborate with him in any way.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is exactly what I said.
WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
Q Then I shall come to questions which have connection with the SS industries. I am referring to Document Books 14 and 15, which have been introduced by the prosecution -
THE PRESIDENT: Let's start with a nice fresh book at quarter to two.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1345.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 21 May, 1947.)
OSWALD POHL - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, I now come to the questions which are connected with the so-called SS industries. What considerations made the SS have its own economic enterprises?
A. The best way to understand this might be if I would divide up these economic enterprises into three groups. The first group originated in the concentration camps; the second group, those which originated outside the concentration camps and which were not connected with them; and the third group are those which were created while the armament drive was on; for the first group, special deliberations did not take place because it was a logical development from the workshops in the camps. The second group were decided on by certain deliberations on the part of Himmler which were in line with his reformist tendencies and ideas; and the third group developed equally logically from Himmler's efforts to have the armament increased where ever possible by taking over or activating enterprises. Actual considerations can be found only in the case of the second group which was part of Himmler's reformist efforts. What he meant by that was his intentions to carry out reforms after the war, in all spheres of life, that is within the SS, both in the way of life and in the field of food, clothing, and above all in dwellings culture.
Q. What were the first enterprises that were founded by the SS administration; who were its heads, and how were you connected yourself with these enterprises?
A. The first enterprises were those which developed from the workshop in concentration camps, and they were economic enterprises in Dachau; they were, above all, large carpenter shops and blacksmith shops, and a bakery and a butcher shop. These, roughly in 1939, were put under the supervision as economic enterprises. Their heads were SS leaders;
I myself, as long as these enterprises were not organized as legal commercial enterprises, its supervisory chief.
Q. From what funds were these first economic enterprises financed?
A. The very first funds of these economic enterprises in Dachau consisted, I should say, of credits of the Party. They were very small funds and they were required to get the thing started, and they were paid back fairly soon. From then onwards, banking funds were increased extensively by Reich funds which were put at their disposal.
Q. Will you give us a brief description of the economic enterprises of the SS after the time of the foundation of German Economic Enterprises Limited, the DWB?
A. Apart from the SS economic enterprises in Dachau, the DEST was created after 1938 and that was situated in Oranienburg, near Berlin. The foundation of that enterprise originated in an agreement between Himmler and Speer. Shortly before the war already, the idea developed to rebuild and extend Berlin. Speer had drawn up some colossal plans and for those plans enormous amounts of stone were required. Between Himmler and Speer, at that period, the plans developed which provided for the establishment of a huge stone quarry, that is, a brick work, near Oranienburg, near the Oranienburg concentration camp. That was in 1938. In the following year, 1939, the German Equipment Works Limited, DAW for short, was founded. That plant was to give the legal commercial pay basis to the Dachau SS enterprises, because the Dachau enterprises and also the workshops which originated, above all, in the Sachsenhausen Oranienburg concentration camp had reached an extent which exceeded by far the requirements for the production in those camps, and, therefore, it was necessary --- it was not possible rather to prevent -for that reason the economic enterprises legal basis had to be given, and so in 1939 the German Equipment Works was founded.
Both were in the following year, in 1940, coordinated as the first branches under a roof company, a holding company, and that was the German Economic Works, Ltd., the DWV.
Q. You say both were coordinated. By "both" you obviously meant Dest and the DAW?
A. Yes. The economic enterprises of the SS were taken into the DWA, and through the DAW joined the DWB. The old name was dropped after that.
Q. What were the intended tasks of the DWB and what position did you yourself take in that holding company?
A. The task of the DWB was to see to it that there was a uniform financial management among the branches which existed up to then, to take over and centrally administer these tasks as far as it was possible, to do statistical matters, taxes, checking, and uniform regulations concerning the appointing of managers and submanagers, mutual financial assistance by making contracts to new central agencies, to take care of auditing, and so forth.
Q. What was your own position within the DWB?
A. I was a trustee and a business manager in the DWB.
Q. How many enterprises did DWB control and administer at various periods?
A. The enterprises after 1940 grew to a larger extent, and in the end they consisted of about 30 or 40 separate enterprises, with the corresponding plants. Above all, Dest and DAW, which had their plant in almost all camps
Q. What were the means by which DWB and its branches under it were financed?
A. In the first years banking credits were used above all. Later on mainly Reich funds.
Q. When were the SS economic enterprises organized in an office group was done in March of 1942. The rations which were essential to be there were of a purely technical nature, and I organized it into an office group in order to be able to survey the various enterprises in the easiest and clearest possible manner, and I gave the housing a form which corresponded with our habits and customs in our own office.
Q. What was the legal position of the economic enterprises which were under the supervision of the WVHA?
A. The economic enterprises at first were given special tasks as special departments as so-called W offices, and finally, as I explained before, as Office Group W, which was their designation. But no official basis was given to this, whereas the other office groups A, B, C, and also D, all had their budget that did not exist for office Group W, and while members of Office Groups A to D received their salaries from the Reich, members of Office Group W received their wages and expenses and other items from the firms where they were in employment. Then members of Office Group W were not supplied with the official SS documents. They were simply given their professional designations. The trade register also did not list them as SS officers or with their SS service ranks, but only with their positions within the commercial firms. The entire mail for these enterprises did not go through the registry office of the WVHA, but it went directly to the groups of firms. The firms themselves immediately were dealt with there and the files and correspondence remained with the firms. Nor did the enterprises have the official Party emblem. In about 1938 or 1939 through the Reich Treasury of the Party stated that the enterprises were not Party property, and therefore would not be audited by its officials.
Roughly at the same time the Reich Minister of Economy declared that the enterprises were subject to his auditing. From that statement it becomes clear beyond any doubt that the economic enterprises represent a special property of trustee slip nature. From the statutes of the DWB it did not become clear that I personally was not the owner of the shares, but only the trustee. Nor did the trade register show that I was a trustee rather than the owner, but that was explained by the fact that German commercial law does not provide for the registering of a trustee company. The only document from which the trustee character becomes clear was my unconditional offer of these shares to Himmler. I made this offer to Himmler because at that time the owner of the entrusted property was not yet established. Yet had Himmler availed himself of that offer, Himmler would have succeeded me as the trustee, in which case he would have had to appoint somebody else as a trustee in my position. There cannot be any doubt that even Himmler himself was not the owner of this complex, because neither from his own property nor from party or SS funds which were not at his disposal for legal reasons had he given any capital at all. The Financial Authorities also recognized the trusteeship character of those shares, for I personally was not taxed for these shares. The financial authorities did not make any investigations to established the owner because it was clear to them that only the Reich or the party could be that, and both agencies were not at all taxable as regards income and property. The DWB, or rather the Reich, on the basis of the credits which it had given and which were higher than the credits from single banks, had a full legal claim to be the provider of and partner in the enterprises.
That was how the DWB assumed the character of a Reich company.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It had roughly the same position as the German Industrie AG, which was under the supervision of the Reich Ministries of Finance and Economic Affairs. Legally speaking, therefore, the DWB could also be described as a Reich company under the supervision of the WVHA. That is roughly how I look at the legal basis of the DWB.
Q Now, Witness, I believe you made one small mistake when you compared the DWB with the German Industrie AG. I assume you meant VIAG, the United Industry Stock Company.
A That is correct, yes, I meant VIAG, quite right.
Q As far as commercial law is concerned, the SS enterprises were usually conducted in the form of a limited company, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And they were later administered on commercial principles and not on party principles. For instance, the system of double bookkeeping was introduced, is that correct?
A Yes, they were laid on the proper commercial principles.
Q What happened to the profits which came from these enterprises?
A The profits, as far as they were not swallowed up by Reich taxes, which usually took up to ninety percent, otherwise remained in the firms, enterprises themselves. No profits were paid out.
Q What enterprises within Amtsgruppe W were the most important ones during the war?
A The most important ones were first of all the Quellenbetriebe, Mattoni with the Sudetenquellen and the Apollinaris, because these enterprises provided for the total requirements of the SS and important parts of the army and other projects of the armed forces. Then the DAW and DEST, by taking over large armament works were important. These, I think, were the most important ones.
Q During the war, during your inspection trips, did you visit and inspect these economic enterprises, and what were your observations on these occasions concerning the general conditions of labor in these Court No. II, Case No. 4.enterprises?
A My official trips were mainly made in order to make official negotiations in the enterprises, mainly because since 1942 almost all enterprises were working on armed forces' assignments. The enterprises of DWB were all of them up-to-date plants, both those which had been taken over as already existing factories and also those which were newly founded, highly-mechanized enterprises, and their working conditions were much simplified and eased.
Q What were the reasons why the DEST enterprises were so modern and up-to-date and large amounts of capital were invested in them?
A The modernization of these DEST enterprises was mainly done in order to have in the field of the earth and stone industries, which in Germany were rather neglected, an example set and to show by a modern factory that even when large amounts of capital are invested in a factory in the field of earth and stone, that was quite feasible. That may sound contradictory to the possibility of employing large numbers of inmates of this work, because actually, as far as the DEST works were concerned, it would have been cheaper not to go too far into modernization but to use rather the more primitive equipment; in the field, for instance, of producing bricks, to rely more on manual proceedings. But that was not done. All the DEST factories, both the plant in the plant in Granienburg, the one near Weimar, and above all the one in Neuengamme, were in and of their kind perhaps the most up-to-date brick works in Europe. I do not think there is any other plant on the Continent as the one in Granienburg where there were over twenty-four tunnel furnaces of more than one hundred meters which were worked on a purely mechanical method and where very little manual work had to be done.
Q The Prosecution have interrogated several witnesses before this Tribunal who testified on general conditions in the DEST works. What do you have to say on the testimony of those witnesses on the basis Court No. II, Case No. 4.of your own observations?
A My impression is that these witnesses described conditions which prevailed when these works were built, especially in Oranienburg and the one in Neuengamme. These conditions were, of course, of a graver nature than those that prevailed when the works were in full swing. As a matter of course, that is inevitable when you construct a factory. The work required was not particularly invented for any special purpose but the bringing along of building material, for instance, and the excavating of earth, and above all the building of the harbor at Oranienburg, which was done manually with a shovel, and not with a crane, put heavy claims on men who were not used to physical work. But it was normal construction work. But in the enterprises themselves, which again is a matter of course in highly-mechanized enterprises, the work was not too heavy. It was certainly simpler than would have been the case in other brick works which were working more on the old methods, with ovens which were served manually. All that was not necessary in these modern works. Therefore I can say that while these plants were being built and constructed, work was perhaps heavier than later on. Once the plant was working, then it was not heavy. I saw that myself very often. Everything was mechanized. Raw material would come in, was poured into the furnace, and came out as the pressed brick, and the inmates would load them on the little trucks, and everything was done mechanically. Nor did I see at any time that when the stones were taken away, when they came out of the furnaces and were then loaded by a crane then had to be taken a few hundred meters to the camp square, I did not observe any tortures or atrocities on those occasions, which does not mean to say that some nasty character could torture an inmate once my back was turned, but there was no cause for any tortures in the work itself, and that also applied to the stone quarries.
The stone quarries of the DEST were also highly mechanized. I know that the physical work after one had purchased the stone quarry Court No. II, Case No. 4.always was to put up cranes, which in the case of the stone quarries in private enterprises that had not existed at all.
Huge cranes were installed which would grip mechanically the stones and take them away. Then we would purchase three-legged cranes for the smaller pieces of stone. The cobbles for the street were not produced by manual work with little hammers, but also by machines. Also the gravel for the streets otherwise was not produced by manual work of hammers, but by huge mechanical processes, especially at Mauthausen and Gusen were one of these very modern mechanical installations each where huge stones were drawn upwards and then transported back to the railway wagons. In these machines, all that the inmates had to do was to serve the machines. Therefore there was no reason in these working conditions to torture inmates. The equipment was there, and nobody had any reason to work themselves to death in this work, if they were not whipped to do so.
Q During your official time, did any complaints reach you on labor conditions in the works of DEST or any other works of Office-W as far as the treatment of the prisoners were concerned, and what did you do when such complaints reached you?
Q. During your time of office did any complaints reach you on labor conditions in the works of Dest, or any other works of Office W, as far as treatment of prisoners were concerned; and what did you do when such complaints reached you?
A. When I traveled I always went through these factories, and I never was approached by any complainants. Every time I talked to the work managers on the spot; also the business managers always had the opportunity to see me and talk to me. But I cannot recall that important complaints were presented to me about labor conditions.
Q. I now come to the position of the so-called Staff W which existed within Office Group W. What were its tasks and in how much did it have the authority to issue orders independently?
A. The Staff W was the instrument which I used as the sole business manager of the DWB when I supervised these enterprises. Its members were experts of whom each one had a special expert field under him. One would work on the legal aspect; another one on financial matters; the third one auditing; fifth one banking and account questions; statistics, and so forth. And I always used the various experts depending on what question I was working on at the time. None of these experts had the authority to issue orders independently.
Q. I come to a few documents contained in Document Book 14 of the Prosecution. First of all, Document NO-1039, on page 16 of the German and page 19 of the English document book XIV. This is Exhibit 384 of the Prosecution, and it is a draft of a report to Reichsfuehrer-SS on the Economic Enterprises of the WVHA; and I would like to ask you, was that report sent to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and does it give a true picture of the activity of Office Group W? The letter itself is dated 10 April 1943.
A. I believe that letter must have been dispatched. It describes the various activities exercised at that time by Office Group W in a correct fashion.
Q. Some of this document consists of unfinished work of Staff W. Under paragraph 32 it says -- and I shall quote verbatim:
"The share minorities Bohemia can be organized into a limited company by conversion."
This is right at the end of the document.
I should like to ask you in this connection who owned the Bohemia shares, and who, more in detail brought about the transfer of this company into the WVHA?
A. The shares of the Bohemia, as far as I can recall, were bought by the German Bank (Deutsche Bank) at the time -- but not all of them. Some of them remained in somebody else's hands. And I do not even think that it was received later on. But for that reason I did not carry out the transformation of that company into a limited company because as things stood at the time there was no reason for this. I did not cause any change to be made.
Q. I shall come to Document NO-1019, Document Book 14, page 33 of the German and page 38 of the English document book. This was Exhibit 386. It is a letter from Keichsmarshall Goering to Reichsfuehrer Himmler, on 26 August 1941. The subject of this letter is the administration of stocks and productive capacity in the Eastern territories. I should like to ask you: What did Himmler and you do? What steps did you cause to be taken? And what were the effects of this order on the administrative system of the WVHA?
A. Already at the end of the Polish campaign Himmler advocated towards Goering that he should be allotted certain enterprises in the occupied territories for his SS-enterprises. But nothing was done about it at first, and, as far as the enterprises named in this letter here, nothing was done in the economic field, I do not know who should have told Himmler about these four enterprises. I assume all this happened in Riga; probably some commander -- I don't know whether there was a higher SS and Police Leader in this area at this time -- who would have pointed out these enterprises to him.
They were never part of us anyway. And from this correspondence nothing materialized for the WVHA as far as I can recall.
Q. Exhibit 394 of the Prosecution is a teletype ---
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you please suspend just for a moment, Dr. Seidl?
(President leaves the bench)
The Court will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will be in recess until 1500 hours.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I will now proceed with Document NO-1913, in Document Book No. 17, on page 30 of the German Document Book and page 63 in English Document Book. This is a teleprint from Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff, dated 22 July 1942 addressed to you, and was submitted as Exhibit 394. In this letter you are asked to have certain negotiations together with Pleiger at the Hermann Goering Works. Did you have any such negotiations, and what were the results of those negotiations. When you answer the question, witness, I will ask you to take a look at Document 395, which is the following document NO-1914, on page 65 of the English Document Book?
A. On the basis of this teletype I did have negotiations together with Pleiger. The negotiations almost reached a result. However, they were not successful eventually. In that case we had no collaboration together with the Hermann Goering Works. The entire plans, as they are described in this document, were not carried out. However, I gave an order to Sturmbannfuehrer Schondorf, he was the technical collaborator, and as business manager of the DEST he, in the framework of the DEST, built a testing station, which, however, was never fully operated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Seidel, this morning, I notice you did not ask the defendant about Document No. NO-1290, on page 49 of the English Document Book.
DR. SEIDL: May I ask for the document number again, please?
JUDGE PHILLIPS:NO-1290. I will ask the defendant to please turn to that document book, if he has it. Do you have that document book and page?
DR. SEIDL: It is on page 46 of the German Document Book, and page 49 of the English. Your Honor, I believe I shall have to say here that according to my recollection this document was not introduced in evidence by the Prosecution.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: It was introduced as Document No. 60 in Book 3, previously.