BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. In order to clarify that point, what you just said before with reference to this leading, you mean that power within the Antsgruppe, whatever was outside of that was no longer up to their guidance?
A. I shall be more concrete. Within the Amts.
Q. I see. You put at the disposal the Amt and the Amt then did the rest, and that was their affair?
A. Yes.
DR. STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I have no further questions then.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that conclude the examination of this witness? If so, the marshall may remove him from the court room.
DR. STAKELBERG: Well, if the Tribunal wants to call a recess, I would appreciate it very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I thought I might persuade you to ask for it.
DR STAKELBERG: All right, Your Honor,. I shall make the request right now.
THE PRESIDENT: Granted.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 June 1947 at 0930 hours)
OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 15 May 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert W. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal Two.
Military Tribunal Two is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, you will please ascertain if all of the defendants are present in the Court.
THE MARSHAL: May it please Your Honors, all the defendants are present in the Court, except the defendant Bobermin, who is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant Bobermin is absent because of illness, and the trial will proceed in his absence.
DR. STAKELBERG: Dr. Stakelberg, for the defendant Heinz Karl Fanslau. I would like to call as the next witness of the defense the defendant Fanslau.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant will take the stand.
HEINZ KARL FANSLAU, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
You may be seated, please.
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Will you please give us your full name and your birth date?
A. Heinz Karl Fanslau, born on 6 June 1909.
Q. Witness, I would like to speak with you immediately about the material points, namely when were you assigned to the WVHA?
A. On 1 February 1942.
q. What was the position you had there?
A. I became Chief of Amt-A-V of the Personnel Office.
Q. Did you ask for a transfer to the WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Was that transfer supplied to you?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. Did you apply for your transfer to the WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Was this transfer a surprise to you?
A. Yes, entirely.
Q. Did you know before your transfer to the WVHA, did you know of the intended formation of the WVHA?
A. No.
Q. Did you collaborate in connection with the creative work of establishing the WVHA?
A. No.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness please pause after the question until the translator has finished his translation before he answers.
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Were you amongst the leaders of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Will you describe that in a little more detail?
A. Unfortunately today I could not tell you what my position was in that respect. All I can tell you is that I was on the 500, or 550th position on the list; it could have been the 700th also, I am not quite sure.
Q. Did you have close contact with Himmler himself?
A. I saw Himmler for the last time when taking ever the zones after the Munich conference in October 1936. I was in the Sudeteland as administrator with the then divisional commander. I never spoke to Himmler myself, nor did he know me personally.
Q. When you entered the WVHA, were you told what the reasons were for your transfer?
A. Well, as far as I can recall the then Brigadeleader, and Major General Frank told me that he made that transfer for the reason, namely, that I could put my experience with the army, put it to use in army administration, particularly with reference to training and schooling of the army administrative officers, and the same applied to my experience in the practical setup of the supply units, both in personnel, as well as in the military respect, that is, the supply units for the division. The reason for that was because of my various proposals, that is, from the army units, with reference to training of officer cadets, that is, particularly, of the military training of the cadets, which on the basis of my experience as an administrative officer, or, rather with officer cadets, had not been sufficient taken into consideration at home.
Q. In other words, all the reasons about which you were told, and which you know, were purely of a military nature?
A. Yes.
Q. When you took ever your office were you assigned a definite political plan?
A. No, in no way.
Q. Did you realize later on, or did you know about it, that you through your activity in the WVHA would somehow participate in the political aim, or in the political plan?
A. No, it never was known to me, nor did I ever take care of a political task, nor was I expected to show political tendencies.
Q. When you entered the WVHA, were you told at the time what the reasons were for the establishment of WVHA, what the main reasons were?
A. Yes, I can recall one conference with the then Amtsgruppen Chief-A, which I can only give you according to its trend. The reason was that the organization was so complicated which would lead to a great many errors, I confirmed that at the time by saying that I, as an administrative official, found it very difficult to form a clear picture. First of all, there was the Main Office for Budget and Building economy, and, then again all through the administration offices under the Brigadefuehrer or Brigadeleader Frank, there were officers under our supervision out there, who could not possibly understand the organization, and I can really say that today.
Q. And you were of the opinion then that the organization could not be seen through was the reason for establishing of the WVHA?
A. Yes. Well, according to my opinion that was the thing that caused it, generally speaking.
Q When you entered the WVHA was there any talk about concentration camps -- that you were to take that over or that the WVHA was to take it over?
A No.
Q Labor assignment of inmates?
A No.
Q Extermination of the Jews?
A No, I knew nothing about it.
Q Well, what I mean is if they ever spoke about it as a means?
A No.
Q Medical experiments?
A No.
Q Euthanasia?
A No, I only heard about the euthanasia program towards the end of 1945 or early in 1946 for the first time.
Q About slave labor or exploitation of foreign nations?
A No.
Q From all the things which you are saying, I would like to deduce that there was no political basis at the bottom of the WVHA, a political plan.
A No, in Amtsgruppe A I saw only military tasks, also in B and in C - and Amtsgruppe W . As far as that goes, I didn't know it well, because there I noticed economic tasks carried out on a purely civilian basis just as in any other economic office and I considered that Amtsgruppe -- worked on civilian economic armament questions under Pohl.
Q You wish to say then that the tasks of the WVHA were not at all of a uniform nature?
A No, according to my opinion, the reason was for that the person of Pohl. That is, as far as Pohl was concerned I can see three particular tasks which I could recognize; the first one of those, the administrative sector of the Waffen-SS, similar to an army administration, possibility within the framework of a wehrkreis administrator; then, the task of party administration under Pohl, as far as you can call that a task in that sense.
THE PRESIDENT: Both counsel and witness are hurrying the translators. Will you please be a little more deliberate, a little slower, and pause between questions and answers.
Q And the third task? You had just stopped the second task.
A Well, the third task was economic orders and the tasks which I mentioned before.
Q When you entered the WVHA did you at the time regard that office as a State institution or did you look upon it as a political concept?
AAs I saw it from my sector, that is, the Waffen-SS, I conceived it all to be similar to an Army administration, I mean at the ministerial level -
Q What was the task assigned to you as Chief of A-V?
A The personnel administration for the administrative officers of the Waffen-SS in their entirety. The same applies to NCO's and military personnel of the administration office within the framework of the WVHA. I would like to add here, with the exception of Amtsgruppe D, which was added later on. As I mentioned before, the processing of the applications by the new generations of leaders and also recruiting amongst the soldiers, the factual training and schooling of the new generation of administrative officers; military training of these future administrative officers in cooperation with the operational Main Office and military schools.
Q How did you subdivide your office? What were the subdivisions?
A Well, I did not carry out the subdivision myself. The subdivision according to the chart which you have, already existed when I entered the WVHA on the 1st of February, 1942.
Q You wish to say when you entered the WVHA you were already shown an organizational chart?
A Yes, and may I point out at the same time that it was my impression yesterday also that when you were speaking about the chart, that this was not considered.
You always spoke about a chart dated March 1942. When I came to the WVHA that chart did not exist at all. It was correct as far as the Amtsgruppe and the offices were concerned. The only thing that was not contained in it was that particular field A-V-4, which we mentioned yesterday, nor was the entire Amtsgruppe D contained in that chart either.
Q If you are talking about a chart of February, 1942, well, then, Amtsgruppe D would not possibly be in it.
A Yes, I believe that yesterday it was not expressed very clearly that there was a different chart prior to that.
Q And according to that first chart, how was your office subdivided?
A We had A-V-1, which comprised replacements, listing and something else now that I can't recall. May I see the chart for a minute?
Q What category of people?
A Well, I want to tell you that there was no difference made by my predecessor. My predecessor probably participated in the setting up of this chart and I did not insert the change. I tried to point out
Q I would like to know now how you subdivided your office; in other words, at the time when you were Chief how the subdivision was. What did you do?
A May I repeat. According to the chart there are A -V-1, A-V-2, and A-V03. However, I changed the following in the Army administration there, A-V-1 comprised the administration of the NCO's and military personnel and also with preference to promotions, transfers and assignments, these were under A-V-2. Apart from that, the civilian employees, as far as typists were concerned, in other words, personnel who worked in offices of the Sector Waffen SS were also dealt with in A-V-1 and A-V-2. Again it was transferred from A-V-1 and it was also contained in A-V-2 and that for administrative officers. In other words, to make a long story short, I differentiated between the working or the personnel and the identification of the officers and NCO's the same way as it was done with every Army II-B and under A-V-2 I worked on the identification for the officers.
That is compared to Army administration II-A, as far as the field of task is concerned, training and schooling.
Q That is A-V-3, is it?
A Yes, A-V-3, I would like to mention that there was only one school. My predecessor wanted to create a school for administrative NCO's. However, that school never was established, at least not with the WVHA. That training actually took place with the Reserve Department, which was under the main operational office.
Q According to your subdivisions which you have described to us you had exclusively administrative tasks of the Waffen-SS?
A Yes.
Q What did you think the Waffen-SS was?
AAs long as I was a member of the Waffen-SS, that is to say, not only during the war, I was a division administrator before the war also, it was a purely military group, an army unit, and at all times all the administrative regulations for the Army were good for us. Those administrative regulations only dealt with military matters.
Q. According to the knowledge, or your knowledge at the time, did the Waffen-SS have any political tasks or was it a purely military unit with nothing but military tasks, according to your opinion?
A. Yes, it was-a purely military unit. We were subdivided in battalions, regiments, and we were housed in barracks, and our budget was in tune with the army budget. In other words, whatever the Wehrkreis administration of the army used, in budget matters, I also used in a budgetary way for the special Task Groups.
Q. I mean the ideal basis, did the Waffen-SS according to your knowledge , have a political aim, more ideological, or was it just pursuing military aims?
A. Just military aims.
Q. And your office A-V apparently was also an office with purely military tasks?
A. Yes, as I have already mentioned it in detail.
Q. When you came into Berlin, where were your offices, particularly compared with the offices of Pohl, when you came into the WVHA?
A. I went into the WVHA in February. The offices were placed in various buildings. I myself had my office in house number 129 Unter Den Eichen. Pohl's agency, for instance, and I believe Loerner's also, were two or three houses further down, and it was only in the fall of 1942 that the Amtsgruppe Chiefs, that is to say Pohl, for instance, moved to house number 132 or 133. However, that was one single block, one whole block, and we had connections through corridors among each other. That situation, however, only prevailed for a period of four to five months. Then when the air raids began we received two direct hits on that block, and all these houses in between fell of, so to say, that is from 131 to 134 all those were destroyed.
Loerner then moved to 135-136 and Pohl moved to the Schloss Strasse which was nearby, in a building there. In other words, if I wanted to go see Pohl or Loerner or the Amtsgruppe Chiefs there I had to get out of my house, walk for a distance of approximately two to three hundred meters along that street there, and then got into the other building through a new entrance. Amtsgruppe C was in another street, entirely different street. The building of C, I could only reach the building of office C when I went through three backyards, that is leaving my house and walking through three backyards and reaching C. I would like to add at the same time that there was another agency which Kammler, K-a-m-ml-e-r, had in an entirely different sector of the city. Then in the last year and a half or so I saw Kammler very seldom with us, and he was very difficult to be reached.
Q. With the 3rd of March, 1942, the incorporation of the Inspectorates for the Concentration Camps was ordered, and if I am not wrong it became effective the 1st of May 1942. When was it that you heard about this incorporation?
A. It is difficult for me to tell you today. It could have been in the course of March. It could have also been during the first days of April. However, it was only after the 3rd of March, because this chart, which was mentioned yesterday here, I only saw that after it was printed.
Q. In other words, you did not participate in the preparations?
A. No. May I add something to this? If I had participated in this then I am sure that I would have suggested the whole chart in a different way.
Q. That incorporation, did that incorporation change anything in your tasks?
A. No.
Q. Where was it that you had the personnel files of the members of the concentration-camp services?
A. With Amtsgruppe "D".
Q. Between administrative officers and members of the concentration-camp service there must be differences, I mean differences in career.
A. Yes. Yes, there was even a special regulation about that from the personnel main office. That is to say, it was issued by order of Himmler about career regulations of the SS. On one side we had the administrative officers of the Waffen-SS, and on the entirely different side, that is to say, you compiled regulations for careers. One could see the regulations about promotions and also the career for the Special Department, of the concentration camps.
Q. And your personnel office, A-V, had nothing to do with that special group or section for concentration camps, did it?
A. No.
Q. Now, then, we could gain the impression that there is a connection of we look at this organizational chart which you have before you. That is Exhibit No. 38, and the chart number is NO-111. The field of task A-V/4 is mentioned there.
A. Well, yes, these mistakes are quite possible. However, it does say there that it was assigned to Amtsgruppe D.
Q. Did you arrange about this assignment with Amtsgruppe D, this addition which we see?
A. No. When I saw the map that is the way it was contained in there.
Q. In other words, this addition of a Sachgebiet, of the field of task, A-V/4 was carried out without your knowledge?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us what the reasons were for that?
A. Yes, today I can tell you that. At the time I couldn't find the explanation. However, now I do, and that was the reason why I at the time made checks. I had conferences with the Main Office Chief.
Q. You mean with the Defendant Pohl?
A. Yes, I wanted to inquire in how far I was to participate in that.
Q. And what was the answer which you received at the time?
A. Pohl introduced that in his chart after having conferred, with Gluecks, in order to avoid confusion in the organizational chart, and Gluecks explicitly asked for keeping his independence in all personnel questions and also that his Adjutant Harbaum, should continue to direct the Personnel Department.
Q. However, you say that you received the explicit order then not to cal with that particular field of Task A-V/4?
A. No, not at all. I never did have anything to do with it.
Q. In other words, you had the order not to deal with that, and actually never did deal with that?
A. Yes, and Gluecks would have raised hell if I had transferred even one leader or changed his position from an administrative standpoint.
Q. That order is based on an agreement between Pohl and Gluecks?
A. Yes.
Q. Which Pohl told you?
A. Yes.
Q. I would like to show you Exhibit 552 which was introduced yesterday also, that is Document NO-1923. This is a decree and you can understand where it comes from.
A. Namely from Amtsgruppe Chief D, as can be seen from the letterhead.
Q. Addressed to whom?
A. It is addressed to the commandants of the concentration camps.
Q. And under small e, on page 3 if you look through it for the main Department AV-4.
A. Yes.
Q. You have there a series of reports, which apparently concern the Concentration Camp Commandants and which were sent by the Concentration Camp Commandants to AV-4.
A. Yes.
Q. Now take a look at the report, and tell me if you in AV-4 had anything to do with those reports, factually that is?
A. No, may I say first of all I did not participate myself, that is with the distributor. If the word on the first page had anything to do with the personnel Main Office or the Personnel Office reference would have been made to it. Then, under V, there is a report about transfer free seats for wonded. That for instance is nothing but a matter for the Adjutant's office. Under paragraph 4 monthly reports from the German volunteers from the Southeast territory; no such thing was ever done in the personnel office.
Q. In other words in office A-5?
A. Yes, monthly personnel strength reports of the Kommandantur and Guard personnel. We never received any of those because the Personnel strength of the WVHA -may I take a look at the date, please, --- usually amounted to from the lowest personnel strength 600 to the highest personnel strength of approximately 1,500 or 1,800 possibly. Here I heard of personnel strengths of 30,000 and 35,000 guards. We never received such personnel strength reports.
Q. In other words we can say you had nothing to do with those things?
A. No.
Q. And from your personal knowledge of the situation would you like to say that this exhibit proves that AV-4, belonged to Office Group D?
A. Yes, it furthermore proves that they make no difference between AV-4 as personnel office and tasks II A as adjutant. Both these things are together called AV-4.
Q. You say that interpolation of AV-4 in the organizational chart was neither caused by your collaboration of that nor does it correspond to facts?
A. Yes, correct.
Q. I see. now, I find here also AU-1, AU-3. Are these terms coined by you? AV-1 transfers and releases, for example.
A. That's right; I have already mentioned that.
Q. And also AV-2 which deals with transfers and assignments and promotions.
A. Yes, the same applies to that.
Q. Therefore, we ought to be able to be in a position to say that this chart here with reference to No. AV-1 is not correct according to facts?
A. Yes, we can see that without any difficulty.
Q. In other words it is not factually correct?
A. Quite, I already expressed that in my previous interrogation.
Q. You mentioned a Herr Harbaum before that. Who is that?
A. That was Gluecks' adjutant.
Q. Now, what was his task with reference to AV-4?
A. Well Harbaum had that task before that; it was before the inspectorate was added to Glueks.
Q. Was he in charge of AV-4?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that existed prior to that, only not under the term AV-4?
A. What term was used before - in other words if it is used II A or II B or Personnel Department, I couldn't tell you today because not everybody knew about this personnel section.
Q. In any case from point of view of field's tasks nothing changed?
A. No.
Q. Neither the Inspectorate Office group D, nor with you?
A. If anything changed in Amtsgruppe D I don't know; however in my office nothing changed.
Q. And also as far as the location of that AV-4 is concerned it was separated from your office?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was AV-4, where was it located?
A. It was located in Amtsgruppe D Oranienburg.
Q. Amtsgruppe D did not only have members of the concentration camp services but also administrative officers didn't it? How many administrative officers were there within the framework of Amtsgruppe D?
A. I can only tell you the lowest personnel strength and the highest personnel strength. There were at least 20 and at the most 30.
Q. And how many administrative officers did the Waffen SS have as a total?
A. 2,800 to 3,000.
Q. In other words the administrative officers of Amtsgruppe D amounted to about 1 per cent of total strength.
A. That is correct.
Q. When was it that these administrative officers were transferred to Amstgruppe D or Inspectorate?
A. I couldn't tell you that because this situation prevailed when the Inspector joined the WVHA.
Q. In other words these transfers took place before your official activity began?
A. Yes, of course we made transfers with me also; that is due to certain discrepancies and difficulties with these units but it would be too far reaching if I went into detail and told you all about the Military measures and particularly with reference to age group seizure and KV actions. In other words the action of those that could be used for the war if I could mention that here.
Q. When the transfers took place of Amtsgruppe D was there a special selection or were these administrative officers trained in their particular manner for that?
A. No, not at all; selection was carried out in the same manner with all other officers at home. In other words only the older groups were used or then those wounded more than others such people could not possibly be used to their fall extent in war.
Q. If administrative officers now were transferred to Amstgruppe D could you exert an influence on their further use and on their activity?
A. No, I couldn't do that anywhere; I couldn't do it with any other officers either, that is with reference to activity or to internal transfers. May I add something; I want to make a difference here between transfer, that is transfer, and Personnel administration of the transfer. I make a difference between the two.
Q. I would like to put before you now document No. 2147however, I see that is dated from the 9th of January 1942 and you weren't with the WVHA then.
A. No.
Q. In any case you say that you had no possibility of directing matters within Amtsgruppe D?
A. No, so that there will be no mistakes let me explain. In the applications for transfers from one office to the other or from one agency to the other we left him in charge for the formal execution of it.
However, the direction itself, and the proposal to carry it out always came from the Amtsgruppe concerned, or then from the office concerned, or then, generally speaking, from the outside agency.
Q In other words, you mean that the administration was with other Amtsgruppen, and you only had the formal execution? The mental guidance was with other Amtsgruppen?
A Well, you say "mental guidance." Do you mean the factual guidance which was under my orders? That was under my orders; yes, that is it.
Q Witness, at the time when you were in the WVHA, were there regular conferences of Amtsgruppechiefs or Amtschiefs?
A No.
Q Did you try to leave your position in the years that followed?
A Yes, on three different occasions. The first time was in the summer of 1942 when the Corps had been set up because I was supposed to take over that corps as an administrator; already prior to my transfer to the WVHA. As the senior division administrator, I had been regarded upon as the best man for that job. And, of course, I wanted to join the fighting forces. Then twice again in 1944. That was the first time to get a front-line duty assignment since I was not satisfied with my administrative job. And apart from that - that was particularly due to the simplification of the administration after so much was saved as far as personnel strength was concerned. That is, a reduction was carried out and I wanted to join the frontline boys.
Q Were your requests denied?
A Yes, in 1942 it was denied by Frank who told me that would be an uncomradely desertion, and I should stay with the WVHA for at least two years and put my ideas into reality, make my ideas come true. And that I should not think of a transfer before having served in the WVHA for two years. The other two requests were denied by Pohl, and he explained that fact by saying that those simplifications of administration, the cutting of personnel and the individual leadership, particularly with reference to age, use for war assignment, possible use for war assignment, and no use for war assignment, etc.