We discussed these things very often and criticized them; and this was not only criticized by Frank and myself.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Do I understand you to say that you were disappointed because they were not carrying the war to victory, but that you were satisfied when you were triumphant?
A No. We referred to the personal attitude and the personal behavior which became known to us. We heard about persons which diverted from the ideals of which we had thought of before.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: If you go back two years from May 1945, you find yourself in the spring of 1943, so you had all of 1942 and 1941 before that, and 1940 also, and were not these leaders carrying on in the same manner in those years as they were in 1944 and 1945?
A. I had very little contact with higher leaders at that time because of my grade and position, so that I was unable to form a picture of it at that time. After all, I did not know them before at all.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And you intend to convey to us this thought: That it was only during the last two years of the war that you got to know their real character; is that what we are to understand?
A. Well, this referred only to certain individuals. There were very few of them of whom I found out all of these things.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Who were these individuals that you found out?
A. Well, I request that I be permitted not to make any statement about that.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, you were a brigadier general prior to December 1943, were you not?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In December 1943 you were made a major general in the Waffen SS?
A. That was in 1944.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 1944. Now, this organization, the WVHA, was a right large organization, was it not?
A. It was a very complicated organization.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And in it you had Pohl as the chief?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: And then Amtsgruppen A, B,C,D, W, and Staff W, all under the one head?
A. All of these things were subordinated to Pohl. Pohl had several special assignments.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then in this organization with these various branches of the organization, you had a number of fields of tasks?
A. I?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The organization had.
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now, what method or means of coordination did the chiefs of the Amtsgruppen and the chiefs of the various offices in the Amtsgruppen have between each other for the purpose of carrying out the work to be done by the WVHA?
A. Perhaps it could be explained in the following: If something happened in Amtsgruppe A, then this went from the Office Chief to the Chief of the Amtsgruppen, and if it concerned another chief of an Amtsgruppe and if it was something of a fundamental nature, then it was routed through Pohl, and in internal matters, if it was an individual task, discussions were held about it, and if it was not very important --
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I want to get right there at the discussions. Did you ever have any conferences with the chiefs of the various Amtsgruppen in regard to the tasks and how the coordination between the various Amtsgruppen would be handled? Did you ever have any conferences along that line?
A. Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: About how often would you have those conferences?
A. There were either one or two. I am certain that one of them took place.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: In those conferences you coordinated your fields of tasks and the duties and responsibilities of the various Amtsgruppen and their relationship to each other, did you not?
A. No, Your Honor, I was referring to the Unruh Action. It was the examination of the individual offices as to the numbers that they had furnished for military service. That was a general order with regard to the reduction in personnel, with exact time limits and the exact regulations.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, if you never had any conferences between the leaders of the various organizations, how did you operate? How did you know what each branch was doing and how they were doing their work and how it affected the others?
A. I did not know that. I did not know what effect it had on the other offices and what they were doing. I had nothing to do with that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: So the Tribunal is to understand from your testimony that although all of these Amtsgruppen which were under one organization, the WVHA, that they did not have any coordination among themselves, but operated as single, individual units, responsible to nobody except Pohl?
A. The office chiefs were subordinated the Chief of the Amtsgruppe.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I am talking about work. You had not coordination in the work of the various offices, but they were each independent of the other and were subordinated to Pohl; is that what you mean for us to understand?
A. Well, Your Honor, their work was separated. They were completely divided, and they also had special designations. I was never an expert in C or D.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Of course they were separate, but they were working under one organization, and their fields of tasks overlapped and had to be coordinated with each other to carry out the work.
A. Well, the same plan existed as in the army administration, the construction system, the clothing for the troops, the troop administration, economic matters, agriculture, mail service.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Don't you think that the branch who had charge of the finances would have to know something about the food and clothing because they had to pay for them? Don't you think that the manufacturers the ones who had the plants under the Staff W, would have to know something about the labor and the labor allocations?
A. Well, in peacetime the individual had to be much better oriented with regard to the budget and funds because an exact accounting had to be given for everything that was spent at the time. I can only say how it was in my office in peace time. There it was exactly limited. Written requests had to be made from one field to another. The exact reasons had to be given, just how much the construction expenses would amount to.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Whether they had conferences or not, there had to be some method of coordination between various groups to carry out the tasks which they were assigned to perform. Now, if they did not have conferences, what method of coordination did they have among the various branches of the WVHA?
A. I beg your pardon, Your Honor, I can speak only of the coordination in one big field of work. It never happened for example that I ever attended a single conference or discussion of W whenever they discussed these matters. It never happened in the case of D. It never happened in the case of C, or in the case of D. It was possible that I attended a conference with one chief of an office.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The Tribunal will have to find out the best it can how they coordinated. We know they had to coordinate in some way. That is all.
A. I beg your pardon, Your Honor, I could not make any other statement. I only state to you exactly what happened in my case and how it was in my office.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. Witness, I only want to ask you one general question. You told us this morning that Himmler was in favor of illegitimate children.
A. No, I did not say that.
Q. I believe that I can recall the statement.
A. That must have been a mistake on your part. I said that this order or this view of Himmler's was generally known and that we would discuss this in our family circles, especially those of us who were married, and we usually criticized it.
Q. Well, witness, you would have had the order to obey.
A. Yes, as a soldier.
Q. Why were you opposed to this view of Himmler's? Witness, I am quite serious about this.
A. I was not of the opinion that I was ordered to do this.
Q. But you told us that it was the view of Himmler.
A. Yes, but it is not my fault that he is of another opinion.
Q. Witness, that is my question. Wasn't it, therefore, true that all these views, in particular the derogatory views which you had, that these views were views that were complied with by the SS men but that it always depended on the individual?
A. Well, nobody had to right to interfere in such private matters, and this could not be understood as an order. I don't think that anybody understood it to be an order.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Well, this is a new idea. You have come around to the belief that the head of the State did not have the right to interfere in some private matters. Are you convinced of that now?
A. Yes.
Q. What about the equally private matter of marriage? Do you now think the State had no right to interfere with that?
A. Well, nobody can give me an order when or whom I am supposed to marry.
Q. No, but they could put you in prison if you married a person they did not want you to. That happened in your family, didn't it?
A. Yes. These things were unjust. I considered them to be unjust, and I have proved it by the fact that I myself appeared as the best man in the wedding.
Q. It is a good thing Himmler didn't know that. Well, then, you think now at long last that there are some things in men's lives that the State has no right to interfere with?
A. Today I have a completely different point of view in a political sense than I had then as a young man, and I shall teach my children a different ideology in this field.
Q. Do you think a man has perhaps a right to his own opinion nowadays, without being imprisoned?
A. I can not judge it in every case now what the political situation is on the outside. I have had far too little insight into that in the last two years. Many changes have taken place; I realize that.
Q. I still want to find out one thing. Do you think today that a man ought to be put in prison because of the particular opinion that he holds on religion, marriage, politics?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, unfortunately by things like that, the will of the people is silented. These are the disadvantages that in the time, in 1931 and 1932, during the development, we could not realize the true faiths of our ideology. We failed to recognize them.
Q The important thing is, have you learned anything since 1931 about these facts?
A Yes, I have learned to open my eyes.
Q How many of your fellow citizens do you think have opened their eyes? You don't know that, do you?
THE INTERPRETER: I can't translate it at all.
THE PRESIDENT: No one can.
A Well, many millions have, all those who have lost their country, their home.
BY DR. VON STAKELBERG:
Q Witness, as Office Chief in Amtsgruppe A, to whom were you responsible at that time?
A To the Chief of the Amtsgruppe.
Q And to whom was the Chief of the Amtsgruppe responsible?
A He was responsible to the Chief of the Main Office.
Q In Amtsgruppe "B" for beggar, was the same procedure followed?
A Yes.
Q The Office Chief was responsible to the Chief of the Amtsgruppe, and the Chief of the Amtsgruppe was responsible to Pohl?
A Yes.
Q And was exactly the same procedure followed in the other amtsgruppen?
A "C", yes, and "D" for dog, yes, probably also. Well, Pohl himself was the Chief of the Amtsgruppe there.
Q And that was in the case of "W" for William. Please tell me, did the fields of work of A, B, C for Charlie, and D have any contact with each other?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No. It can be seen from the organizational chart which contains all the tasks.
Q Well then, you can divide the tasks into twenty different branches. In the WVHA can we speak of a uniform authority in the sense in which it is usually used?
A No. There were different law conditions too. Let's take the Sector W. Only Pohl had any authority there as an economist, as a trustee. However, in military things it was exactly like the Chief of the Army Administrative Office. He and the different branches were channeled together just like in the case of the Army Corps Area.
Q You say that the tasks of the WVHA were not of a uniform nature?
A No, at least they were of three different natures. If I would want to divide them any further we have military administration.
Q Was, therefore, a collaboration between the office groups necessary in order to carry out the work in every individual amtsgruppe?
A No, only insofar -- I can only judge that from my position in the army administration as far as monetary matters were concerned, for in A, B and C these matters were handled between these offices, but this was only done for property.
Q You are talking about three different tasks. Well, from the point of view of the work, therefore, the WVHA could be divided into three offices?
A Yes.
Q And they actually should be independent authorities, is that correct?
A Yes. However, now I am speaking of the whole WVHA. That is, if you take the additional assignment of Pohl with regard to the inspectorate of the concentration camps then there are four.
Q You mean the four authorities which actually dealt with completely different tasks, which were independent authorities?
A Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q And why was all this consolidated into one office?
A I have stated already that I can only tell of how it appeared to me at the time. Because Pohl had the utmost variety of tasks he organized them according to the organizational chart, and he united all these things in his person.
Q You heard Pohl say that tasks were handled by at least four different authorities, and that they were only consolidated because accidentally all these assignments were concentrated on Pohl?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q However, there was no connection between the actual work?
A Not within these four branches, but they were only consolidated because Pohl was in charge of them.
Q Now, one would think that this is contrary to the question of the supply of funds. Now, I might ask you one additional question. I believe that there are still certain doubts on this subject, who carried out the payment for the WVHA?
A For the WVHA? That was the Reichsbank, The Reich Main Treasury, or the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q No, I mean within the WVHA. Didn't you have a pay agency?
A You mean the house treasury. Well, I have already mentioned it.
Q Now, let me ask you a question. I want to clarify this point. You say the house treasury?
A Yes.
Q Where did your house treasury belong?
A It belonged to the house commander. It was under Pohl as it is listed in the chart.
Q However, it has not been mentioned here.
A No, only the house commander appears in the organizational chart.
Q That is in the big chart, NO-111?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A That is NO-111.
Q That is in order, the old organizational chart of the WVHA?
A Yes, that was already contained in the whole plan, which I discovered when I came into the WVHA.
Q Under Pohl we have a whole number of agencies which were directly subordinate to Pohl?
A Yes.
Q Left then is the house commander, and the house treasury belonged to that office?
A Yes.
Q And this agency carried out the payments for all the offices and for all the amtsgruppen?
A Not for all of them; only for the Reich sector in the house.
Q Very well, only for the sector of the Reich. However, in any case, not the Office A-I carried out these payments?
A No.
Q Did the Office A-I have anything to do with payments?
A It is very difficult for me to say if this was possible, for the time before I took over the office; in my time they did not even have a treasury any more, and cash payments could not be carried out by any office. This always had to go through some treasury.
Q That is correct. The Office A-I is called the budgetary office, I think, and therefore it may lead to a possible conclusion, if one believes that, if an office deals with budgetary matters then it has to make cash payments for all the offices and the office groups.
A Well, that has never been done in the budgetary office, in the budgetary system of the Reich.
Q That is correct, and that is what I want you to clarify. Therefore, the Office A-I did not have any financial assignments in that sense?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A It did not carry out any direct payments.
Q And, therefore, there is no connection with the other offices because of that?
A I cannot judge how it was worked out in the budget, and that was why I said previously that I cannot recall any details. I have no information about it. That is exactly as if somebody else really, truthfully testified about my personal matters.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. GAWLIK: (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANTS BOBERMIN AND VOLK):
Q Witness, if I have understood you correctly, you said on crossexamination that the Economic Enterprises had been part of Office W; did I understand you correctly?
A Of Office Group W?
Q Did you say that? Did I understand you correctly?
A I don't know whether I said Office Group W or Office W.
Q If you deliberated on that point once more, would you not have to rectify your statement?
A Yes, for instance, speaking of the Economic Enterprises, I can only say what I know from my own knowledge, I could perhaps put it a little more clearly, that the various Economic Enterprises or companies were co-ordinated under the -- Office W concerned.
Q Witness, will you answer this question: were they part or were they not part of Office Group W? Would you have to rectify the answer which you gave on cross-examination?
A I don't know what I would have to rectify. They were outside agencies and branches which were supervised by the various companies. I am not a commercial legal expert. Some of them were kept on a treasury basis and all of them were active under Pohl in the various W-offices.
Q Is it therefore correct to say that you don't know whether the economic Enterprises were part of Office Group W? Please answer yes or no.
Q From my own knowledge, I am unable to judge this. That was too much outside of my department and -
A Therefore, you wish to correct your answer given on crossexamination to the effect that you don't know whether or not the Economic Enterprises were part of Office Group W. Please tell me yes or no.
A It is quite possible that I made a mistake. It was simply an assumption on my part.
Q Then you spoke -
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. What are you trying to get the witness to say? That the Economic Enterprises did not belong in Division W?
DR. GAWLIK: That he doesn't know that they were part of Office Group W.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any doubt about it? Is it disputed?
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, of course, it was disputed that the single enterprises were part of Office Groups. The relationship was a different one. The various companies is what I mean. They were independent companies over which Office Group W only had the right of supervision.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, well, all right, if that's the only distinction, you can't make much of it.
WITNESS: May I say something about this?
DR. GAWLIK: Please do.
WITNESS: I said before that I know very little about commercial law and make a very poor distinction about the legal aspects for these measures. I do not have the expert knowledge.
Q Then you said that the German Economic Enterprises, G.M.B.H., had been an authority, a Government Department. Surely you don't wish to maintain that answer.
A I regarded them as various departments, but the Economic Enterprises themselves would not represent a Government department. I don't think I was understood to that effect. That would be quite wrong.
Q Then there is another question. Did the treasury pay the wages of the members of Office Group W?
A I believe I said clearly that neither the personnel office in Office Group A nor the Treasury had anything to do with the civilian employees and wages of Office Group W.
Q What does that show, as far as the position of Office Group W is concerned? That it is independent?
A That they had their own business treasury, so to speak. They had no Reich treasury at their disposal, nor did they have any access to a Reich treasury.
DR. GAWLIK: Thank you very much. No further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: No further questions from the defense?
MR. ROBBINS: I only have two short questions, Your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you told us something about Burger. Do you know what position he held in Amtsgruppe D? Burger?
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A He took over the tasks of the Department D-IV as Chief of the Office; as far as I know, he only became active as chief of the office in the autumn of 1944, approximately. He was formally appointed on that date.
Q Do you know what position was held by Mauer in Amtsgruppe D?
A Yes, he was in charge of D-II.
Q Do you know that both Maurer and Burger have been and are in the Nurnberg jail?
A Yes.
Q They would very likely be informed as to the organization of the WVHA and the task that Amtsgruppe D played, would they not?
A Those two, you mean?
Q Yes.
A Yes, they should. They were part of Office Group D. They should know a bit about it.
Q One last question: You weren't drafted into the SS, were you, or coerced to join?
A I?
Q You.
A No.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Mauer and Burger were captured after this case began, were they not?
WITNESS: Yes, I read about this in the newspapers.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: They were not in custody when this indictment was brought against these defendants?
WITNESS: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I have no further questions, Mr. President. I would ask that the witness be dismissed.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal may remove this witness.
(The witness was excused.)
THE PRESIDENT: And the next witness?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Mr. President, the defense of Defendant Fanslau would like to put a few other questions to other defendants. I would ask permission to ask those questions when these defendants are being examined.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, of course.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Then at this time I have finished the defense of Fanslau and I will submit a document book later.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Defendant Hans Loerner is the next defendant to be heard.
DR. RAUSCHENBACH (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT HANS LOERNER): May it please the Tribunal could Hans Loerner take the witness stand as a witness in his own behalf?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course.
HANS LOERNER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Will you please raise your right hand? I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. RAUSCHENBACH:
Q Witness, please give the story of your life briefly.
A I was born on the 6th of March, 1893 in Munich. I visited the second grade school and after that a primary school. When my father died suddenly in 1910 I had to interrupt my studies. I wanted to become an engineer. My father had a large locksmith shop in Munich and I had to join the firm in order to preserve the business for the family. When the war broke out in 1914-18 I was drafted into the artillery and in the Spring of 1915 I went to the front where I remained until the end of the war. On the 1st of January, 1919, I was dismissed as a lieutenant of the Reserve. After the war I tried to start my business again. My mother had died in 1918. Through the inflation and heavy losses of some large accounts and by the economic depression and by a guarantee which I had granted for my brother-in-law, I was forced to close the business in 1930.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
After the business had been closed down completely, then from 1st April 1930 until 3rd October 1934 I became a technical adviser and representative in the Munich districts with a Nurnberg firm for special construction materials. That firm had formerly supplied my own business.
On the 1st of January 1932 I joined the NSDAP. On 1st April 1933 I joined the Allgemeine or General SS. On the 1st of October 1934 I became a full-time administrative officer of the Allgemeine SS and therefore left the Nurnberg firm. Until the outbreak of war I worked at a number of agencies, in Wuerzburg, Bayreuth, Munich, and in the end in Nurnberg. In 1936 I took part in some maneuvers with the heavy artillery in Landsberg on the Lech; and as a 1st Lieutenant I was accepted in the reserve of the Officer corps of the new army.
At the outbreak of war the SS did not release me to do service with the Wehrmacht. Otherwise I would have been drafted into the Wehrmacht as a captain. On the 1st of October 1939 as a Hauptsturmfuehrer I was drafted into the Waffen-SS as an administrative officer. I was first of all with the VT Division, and there I had to build up the supply office. In January of 1940 I was relieved by a younger officer, and I joined the administrative headquarters in Berlin. There I remained until the end of the war.
On 5 May 1945 I went to Bayrisch-Zell, where an evacuated office of the WVHA was located, then I became an American prisoner of war.
Q Witness, why did you join the NSDAP and the SS?
A I worked in my business for almost twenty years and in the end we had about forty or fifty employees; so in particular after the end the disunity in the German community became known to me. I believed and I thought that the NSDAP would succeed in eliminating that lack of unity, particularly the disunity caused by the thirty or forty parties. I hoped that the Party would succeed in establishing a national community which would promote understanding between its own classes Court No. II, Case No. 4.and would provide a livelihood and bread for the people.
I joined the Allgemeine SS because I was interested in administrative tasks. Even in my own business I was very interested in accounting; and it was my hope to build up a new livelihood there because I did not like the job of commercial representative.
Q In the Party and in the SS did you work politically?
A No. In the Party I was a simple Party member with the normal Party contributions. In the SS I was an administrative officer.
Q You said just now that you joined the Allgemeine SS because you were interested in administrative services?
A Yes.
Q Now, it cannot be assumed right away that somebody joins the SS because he is interested in administrative matters. What did you think otherwise about the SS?
A The SS was described to me as a select body of men. The SS would select only such people who were decent and above reproach. Two references were required. You had to show a certificate of conduct from the police. An excerpt of fines or other punishment from the files of the competent police headquarters had to be submitted. Decent behavior towards other members of the community was expected from you.
Q Witness, please describe to me your activity in the Allgemeine SS until the outbreak of the war.
A I joined a Munich unit as an auditing official. I had to look after the treasury, after the cashbooks. I had to accept the contributions of the members and look after the small expenses. I did not do any active service. On 1st October 1934 the then sector South Munich suggested to me that I become an administrative leader full time as they had noticed that I did not like being a commercial representative. I accepted that offer.
I was first of all an administrative leader with a unit in Wuerzburg for about two months, in October and November. Then I went to another unit in Bayreuth where I stayed until the end of January 1935.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
There I had to set up the administration. At the end of January 1935 I was transferred to the SS Sector South in Munich where I again had to accept the contributions of the sponsoring members. In 1939 the Allgemeine SS received new directives for its budgets and its accounting system. Thereupon I had to see to it that these new directives were observed, and also I had to train the administrative leaders, who came from all classes of the population.
On the 1st of April 1936 the SS Sector South was split up and I went to the SS Sector Main to Nurnberg. There again the various administrative agencies had to be set up; administrative officers were to be trained; and I believe it was in the autumn of 1938 that the head of the administration of that agency was transferred and I took over his position as head of the administration, where I remained until the 1st of October 1939.
Q Witness, now please describe to me your activity in the Waffen-SS until the establishment of the WVHA.
A As I said previously on 1st October 1939 I was drafted into the Waffen SS, and I became the head of the supply office of the SS Division V, which is the special task group, the former Verfuegungstruppe. There I remained until January 1940 and then I was replaced by a younger officer. Then I joined the Administrative Headquarters in Berlin, There I had to report to Pohl. I was initiated into the new administrative directives of the army, which applied also to the SS. For about six or eight weeks I worked there in Pohl's personnel office. There it was my duty to set up or help in setting up the personnel department, which had just arrived in Berlin.
As that activity did not seem to agree with me and also as Pohl seemed to be impatient with the speed in which the department was set up, and moreover as I was much more interested in troop administration, I got hold of Frank and on 1st May 1940 was transferred to the military administrative office, which was directed by Frank. That was the Higher Office KI. In that administrative office of the SS I worked Court No. II, Case No. 4.on the budget of the troops and supervised also the administration of the Allgemeine SS.