Roughly at the same time the Reich Minister of Economy declared that the enterprises were subject to his auditing. From that statement it becomes clear beyond any doubt that the economic enterprises represent a special property of trustee slip nature. From the statutes of the DWB it did not become clear that I personally was not the owner of the shares, but only the trustee. Nor did the trade register show that I was a trustee rather than the owner, but that was explained by the fact that German commercial law does not provide for the registering of a trustee company. The only document from which the trustee character becomes clear was my unconditional offer of these shares to Himmler. I made this offer to Himmler because at that time the owner of the entrusted property was not yet established. Yet had Himmler availed himself of that offer, Himmler would have succeeded me as the trustee, in which case he would have had to appoint somebody else as a trustee in my position. There cannot be any doubt that even Himmler himself was not the owner of this complex, because neither from his own property nor from party or SS funds which were not at his disposal for legal reasons had he given any capital at all. The Financial Authorities also recognized the trusteeship character of those shares, for I personally was not taxed for these shares. The financial authorities did not make any investigations to established the owner because it was clear to them that only the Reich or the party could be that, and both agencies were not at all taxable as regards income and property. The DWB, or rather the Reich, on the basis of the credits which it had given and which were higher than the credits from single banks, had a full legal claim to be the provider of and partner in the enterprises.
That was how the DWB assumed the character of a Reich company.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It had roughly the same position as the German Industrie AG, which was under the supervision of the Reich Ministries of Finance and Economic Affairs. Legally speaking, therefore, the DWB could also be described as a Reich company under the supervision of the WVHA. That is roughly how I look at the legal basis of the DWB.
Q Now, Witness, I believe you made one small mistake when you compared the DWB with the German Industrie AG. I assume you meant VIAG, the United Industry Stock Company.
A That is correct, yes, I meant VIAG, quite right.
Q As far as commercial law is concerned, the SS enterprises were usually conducted in the form of a limited company, is that correct?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q And they were later administered on commercial principles and not on party principles. For instance, the system of double bookkeeping was introduced, is that correct?
A Yes, they were laid on the proper commercial principles.
Q What happened to the profits which came from these enterprises?
A The profits, as far as they were not swallowed up by Reich taxes, which usually took up to ninety percent, otherwise remained in the firms, enterprises themselves. No profits were paid out.
Q What enterprises within Amtsgruppe W were the most important ones during the war?
A The most important ones were first of all the Quellenbetriebe, Mattoni with the Sudetenquellen and the Apollinaris, because these enterprises provided for the total requirements of the SS and important parts of the army and other projects of the armed forces. Then the DAW and DEST, by taking over large armament works were important. These, I think, were the most important ones.
Q During the war, during your inspection trips, did you visit and inspect these economic enterprises, and what were your observations on these occasions concerning the general conditions of labor in these Court No. II, Case No. 4.enterprises?
A My official trips were mainly made in order to make official negotiations in the enterprises, mainly because since 1942 almost all enterprises were working on armed forces' assignments. The enterprises of DWB were all of them up-to-date plants, both those which had been taken over as already existing factories and also those which were newly founded, highly-mechanized enterprises, and their working conditions were much simplified and eased.
Q What were the reasons why the DEST enterprises were so modern and up-to-date and large amounts of capital were invested in them?
A The modernization of these DEST enterprises was mainly done in order to have in the field of the earth and stone industries, which in Germany were rather neglected, an example set and to show by a modern factory that even when large amounts of capital are invested in a factory in the field of earth and stone, that was quite feasible. That may sound contradictory to the possibility of employing large numbers of inmates of this work, because actually, as far as the DEST works were concerned, it would have been cheaper not to go too far into modernization but to use rather the more primitive equipment; in the field, for instance, of producing bricks, to rely more on manual proceedings. But that was not done. All the DEST factories, both the plant in the plant in Granienburg, the one near Weimar, and above all the one in Neuengamme, were in and of their kind perhaps the most up-to-date brick works in Europe. I do not think there is any other plant on the Continent as the one in Granienburg where there were over twenty-four tunnel furnaces of more than one hundred meters which were worked on a purely mechanical method and where very little manual work had to be done.
Q The Prosecution have interrogated several witnesses before this Tribunal who testified on general conditions in the DEST works. What do you have to say on the testimony of those witnesses on the basis Court No. II, Case No. 4.of your own observations?
A My impression is that these witnesses described conditions which prevailed when these works were built, especially in Oranienburg and the one in Neuengamme. These conditions were, of course, of a graver nature than those that prevailed when the works were in full swing. As a matter of course, that is inevitable when you construct a factory. The work required was not particularly invented for any special purpose but the bringing along of building material, for instance, and the excavating of earth, and above all the building of the harbor at Oranienburg, which was done manually with a shovel, and not with a crane, put heavy claims on men who were not used to physical work. But it was normal construction work. But in the enterprises themselves, which again is a matter of course in highly-mechanized enterprises, the work was not too heavy. It was certainly simpler than would have been the case in other brick works which were working more on the old methods, with ovens which were served manually. All that was not necessary in these modern works. Therefore I can say that while these plants were being built and constructed, work was perhaps heavier than later on. Once the plant was working, then it was not heavy. I saw that myself very often. Everything was mechanized. Raw material would come in, was poured into the furnace, and came out as the pressed brick, and the inmates would load them on the little trucks, and everything was done mechanically. Nor did I see at any time that when the stones were taken away, when they came out of the furnaces and were then loaded by a crane then had to be taken a few hundred meters to the camp square, I did not observe any tortures or atrocities on those occasions, which does not mean to say that some nasty character could torture an inmate once my back was turned, but there was no cause for any tortures in the work itself, and that also applied to the stone quarries.
The stone quarries of the DEST were also highly mechanized. I know that the physical work after one had purchased the stone quarry Court No. II, Case No. 4.always was to put up cranes, which in the case of the stone quarries in private enterprises that had not existed at all.
Huge cranes were installed which would grip mechanically the stones and take them away. Then we would purchase three-legged cranes for the smaller pieces of stone. The cobbles for the street were not produced by manual work with little hammers, but also by machines. Also the gravel for the streets otherwise was not produced by manual work of hammers, but by huge mechanical processes, especially at Mauthausen and Gusen were one of these very modern mechanical installations each where huge stones were drawn upwards and then transported back to the railway wagons. In these machines, all that the inmates had to do was to serve the machines. Therefore there was no reason in these working conditions to torture inmates. The equipment was there, and nobody had any reason to work themselves to death in this work, if they were not whipped to do so.
Q During your official time, did any complaints reach you on labor conditions in the works of DEST or any other works of Office-W as far as the treatment of the prisoners were concerned, and what did you do when such complaints reached you?
Q. During your time of office did any complaints reach you on labor conditions in the works of Dest, or any other works of Office W, as far as treatment of prisoners were concerned; and what did you do when such complaints reached you?
A. When I traveled I always went through these factories, and I never was approached by any complainants. Every time I talked to the work managers on the spot; also the business managers always had the opportunity to see me and talk to me. But I cannot recall that important complaints were presented to me about labor conditions.
Q. I now come to the position of the so-called Staff W which existed within Office Group W. What were its tasks and in how much did it have the authority to issue orders independently?
A. The Staff W was the instrument which I used as the sole business manager of the DWB when I supervised these enterprises. Its members were experts of whom each one had a special expert field under him. One would work on the legal aspect; another one on financial matters; the third one auditing; fifth one banking and account questions; statistics, and so forth. And I always used the various experts depending on what question I was working on at the time. None of these experts had the authority to issue orders independently.
Q. I come to a few documents contained in Document Book 14 of the Prosecution. First of all, Document NO-1039, on page 16 of the German and page 19 of the English document book XIV. This is Exhibit 384 of the Prosecution, and it is a draft of a report to Reichsfuehrer-SS on the Economic Enterprises of the WVHA; and I would like to ask you, was that report sent to the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and does it give a true picture of the activity of Office Group W? The letter itself is dated 10 April 1943.
A. I believe that letter must have been dispatched. It describes the various activities exercised at that time by Office Group W in a correct fashion.
Q. Some of this document consists of unfinished work of Staff W. Under paragraph 32 it says -- and I shall quote verbatim:
"The share minorities Bohemia can be organized into a limited company by conversion."
This is right at the end of the document.
I should like to ask you in this connection who owned the Bohemia shares, and who, more in detail brought about the transfer of this company into the WVHA?
A. The shares of the Bohemia, as far as I can recall, were bought by the German Bank (Deutsche Bank) at the time -- but not all of them. Some of them remained in somebody else's hands. And I do not even think that it was received later on. But for that reason I did not carry out the transformation of that company into a limited company because as things stood at the time there was no reason for this. I did not cause any change to be made.
Q. I shall come to Document NO-1019, Document Book 14, page 33 of the German and page 38 of the English document book. This was Exhibit 386. It is a letter from Keichsmarshall Goering to Reichsfuehrer Himmler, on 26 August 1941. The subject of this letter is the administration of stocks and productive capacity in the Eastern territories. I should like to ask you: What did Himmler and you do? What steps did you cause to be taken? And what were the effects of this order on the administrative system of the WVHA?
A. Already at the end of the Polish campaign Himmler advocated towards Goering that he should be allotted certain enterprises in the occupied territories for his SS-enterprises. But nothing was done about it at first, and, as far as the enterprises named in this letter here, nothing was done in the economic field, I do not know who should have told Himmler about these four enterprises. I assume all this happened in Riga; probably some commander -- I don't know whether there was a higher SS and Police Leader in this area at this time -- who would have pointed out these enterprises to him.
They were never part of us anyway. And from this correspondence nothing materialized for the WVHA as far as I can recall.
Q. Exhibit 394 of the Prosecution is a teletype ---
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Would you please suspend just for a moment, Dr. Seidl?
(President leaves the bench)
The Court will be in recess.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will be in recess until 1500 hours.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I will now proceed with Document NO-1913, in Document Book No. 17, on page 30 of the German Document Book and page 63 in English Document Book. This is a teleprint from Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff, dated 22 July 1942 addressed to you, and was submitted as Exhibit 394. In this letter you are asked to have certain negotiations together with Pleiger at the Hermann Goering Works. Did you have any such negotiations, and what were the results of those negotiations. When you answer the question, witness, I will ask you to take a look at Document 395, which is the following document NO-1914, on page 65 of the English Document Book?
A. On the basis of this teletype I did have negotiations together with Pleiger. The negotiations almost reached a result. However, they were not successful eventually. In that case we had no collaboration together with the Hermann Goering Works. The entire plans, as they are described in this document, were not carried out. However, I gave an order to Sturmbannfuehrer Schondorf, he was the technical collaborator, and as business manager of the DEST he, in the framework of the DEST, built a testing station, which, however, was never fully operated.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Dr. Seidel, this morning, I notice you did not ask the defendant about Document No. NO-1290, on page 49 of the English Document Book.
DR. SEIDL: May I ask for the document number again, please?
JUDGE PHILLIPS:NO-1290. I will ask the defendant to please turn to that document book, if he has it. Do you have that document book and page?
DR. SEIDL: It is on page 46 of the German Document Book, and page 49 of the English. Your Honor, I believe I shall have to say here that according to my recollection this document was not introduced in evidence by the Prosecution.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: It was introduced as Document No. 60 in Book 3, previously.
DR. SEIDL: Yes. Witness, do you have this document before you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Did you write this letter?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I wrote it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: The contents of it show that you gave the directives as to the working hours of the concentration camp inmates, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Proceed.
DR. SEIDL: So far as the documents are concerned contained in Document Books Nos. 15 and 16, I have no questions to put to the witness. These documents are self-explanatory in the speaking of and referring to the SS enterprises of the WVHA.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, now I shall turn to the Document Book No. 17, please, and in there you will find document NO-554, Would you take a look at this please. It is on page 33 of the German Document Book?
THE PRESIDENT: We will have to send for that book. You have skipped ahead of us a little too fast. Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I am apprised of a fact, unofficially, that there is a matter concerning next Monday that you are all interested in. If some one can tell us what it is about, I would like to hear it.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, this coming Monday is Whitsuntide, and this is quite a holiday for the German population. On this day all the shops are closed, and we would appreciate it if the Tribunal would give us the opportunity, if it could be possibly arranged, with regard to the importance of that day, that there be no session. I heard that the Tribunal before which the Flick case is being heard will also have a recess for that day. However, I am not telling that but with necessary reservations, because I am not quite sure about it.
THE PRESIDENT: It is a religious holiday. It is a holiday.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, it is a religious holiday. It is a legal holiday for the German population.
THE PRESIDENT: And it has always been observed in Germany as a holiday.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I shall try to persuade my colleagues. If you will give me just a moment I think I can possibly persuade them. I have persuaded them. Well, the Tribunal will be happy to recess then from Friday noon until Tuesday morning.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I shall now proceed with NO-554, which is on page 32 of the English Document Book, and which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 448, in Document Book No. 17, at page 33 of the German Document Book. This document refers to a correspondence which deals with loans to the SS Industry, including loans of the Reichardt fund. I will ask you now, witness, who it was that disposed of these Reinhardt funds, was this fund at the free disposal of the WVHA?
A. The Reinhardt funds were Reich funds. They were not at the free disposal of the WVHA.
Court2, Case 4
Q. Now I shall come to Exhibit 450. This is Document NO-063which is on Page 80 of the English document book, Document Book No.17, and on Page 62 of the German document book. The subject of this document is the orders on hand for industries in the SS Labor Camp in the District of Lublin, on the 3rd of November, 1943. I ask you, Witness, who was it installed these Labor camps in the Lublin District, and who, were thy subordinate to?
A. The labor camps in the district of Lublin had been installed by the local SS and police leader, Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik, and they were also subordinate to him.
Q. How was it the transfers of property took place which are mentioned in Appendix No.2 of this report, how was the transfer effected to the Reich?
A. As far as I know the Reichsmark values were sent to a Berlin account, and in order to put it at the disposal of the Reich the account was written out in the WVHA. The amounts in foreign exchange were transferred to the Reichs bank directly.
Q. Who was it that ordered the taking over of these enterprises by the WVHA, and who was it that ordered that the labor camp of CracowPlasudur by changed into a concentration camp?
A. The transfer of these enterprises through the WVHA was carried out in the year of 1943, due to the transfer of Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik, upon Himmler's orders, through the WVHA. The change of the camp, Cracow-Plascow, into a concentration camp took place upon Himmler's orders.
Q. Then, Witness, I shall come to NO-1044, which was introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit 452, in Document Book No. 17 on Page 143 of the English, and on Page 132 of the German document book. This is a report which deals with the experimental station for nutrition, and I ask you now, Witness, was that experimental station set up in order to employ inmates, and what was the task of this experimental station?
A. The way this document shows, the fact is not correct. The German Experimental station for Nutrition and Food did not have the task, and was not established for that purpose to employ inmates, and though the work of concentration-camp inmates was employed, that is where the position or the situation of the enterprose permitted such a use, however, the tasks were entirely different ones.
For instance, on the two experimental stations, Ravensbrueck and Komturei, they carried out an experiment with a biological economic use which was to run for a period of ten years. This property had been bought for that purpose, and an experiment was to be carried out to see how far through natural cultivation the elimination of artificial fertilizers, would be possible. That is a task which was based on Himmler's reformatory ideas. However, the German Experimental Station had other estates in the Steiermark such as Boelsental, Autal, Bretsteintal. In Bretsteintal they just had a small mountain farm where experiments with horse breeding and sheep breeding were being carried out. A further experimental station was in Vogtland near Hof where also experiments were being carried out with the breeding of a certain species of sheep that had been extinct and which for its special quality of wool was sought. In this property there was also a special experiment in weavery. The Experimental Station had some more enterprises in there. However, generally speaking, at Komturei and Ravensbrueck and then of course at Dachau, concentration-camp inmates worked, and also in the spice mill there. However, the sole purpose was not to employ concentration-camp inmates.
Q. I shall now proceed to the discussion of the documents which the Prosecution introduced in evidence with regard to the question of the extermination of the Jews. In other words, I shall turn to those documents contained in Document Books 18 and 19. Witness, you joined the National Socialist Party very early, didn't you? What was your opinion concerning the Jewish question yourself to which the party program takes up some position, and shat is your opinion on the solution of this question?
A. When I joined the party neither Jewish questions nor other racial questions moved me to join the party, and as I have stated on the first day of my examination already, it was my interest in the social sphere of the life of the German laborers that moved me to join the party.
Apart from that only defense questions, played a part in that because I was a soldier. At the moment I joined the party I did not deal with the Jewish question, nor did I deal with any other racial questions, and only after that I learned more facts about it through literature and other publications. With regard to the Jewish question, as I personally had no opportunity to gather experience of my own, I had no actual opinion on that. Therefore, I saw no necessity for the solution of the Jewish problem from my own experience. That was the reason why I didn't deal with that question, neither politically nor propapandishally.
Q. The Prosecution introduced as Exhibit 457 an excerpt from the sentence of the International Military Tribunal which deals with the persecution of the Jews, in Document Book No. 18, on Page 1 in both the English and German texts. This is document NO-2610, and I ask you, Witness, when were you for the first time aware of Hitler's measures, the aim of which was the extermination of the Jews?
A. Measures, having heard of measures? Well, after all we all went through those things in Germany. That is the measures that were taken by the Reich Government and it was published in the press.
Q. Witness, I have to interrupt you. Those are not measures that were aimed at the extermination of the Jews, and what I want to know from you is when you first found out or gained knowledge of the fact, or rather, the measures as they are contained in the judgment of the International Military Tribunal.
A. The first official news I received of an extermination program of the Reich government I had through Himmler's speech in Posen early in October, 1943.That was the first time when I officially heard about the extermination program.
Q. And you reacted to this speech in the manner in which you already described yesterday, or the day before yesterday, to this Tribu nal?
A. Yes.
Q. That is by speaking with Himmler?
A. Yes, at least I tried to speak with Himmler about it.
Q. I shall now turn to Document 3363-PS, Document Book No.18 on Page 7 of the German, and I am afraid I haven't the page in the English document book because the document was missing in my copy of the document book. This is a teletype of the chief of the Security police Chiefs of the special task units of the Security Police of the 21st of September, 1939?
A. No, I had no knowledge of the contents.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document NO-710-PS in Document Book No. 18, on Page 7 of the English document book. This is a letter of Reichsmarchall, ex-Reichsmarschall Goering to the Chief of the Security Police of the SD, dated the 31st of July, 1941. At the time Heydrich was Chief of the Security Police of the SD. I ask you now, Witness, did you at the time or later on gain knowledge of the contents of this letter from Goring to Heydrich?
A. No.
Q. What were the activities of the Security Police in the Occupied Territories? The Prosecution deals with these documents in Prosecution Exhibits 460 to 465. That is, Document 3636-PS. Furthermore, Document 3636-PS, Document 1104-PS, and Document 3257PS. I ask you now, witness, did you or any other agency of the WVHA have anything to do with the activities of these special task troops in the Eastern territories?
A. Neither I nor my agency subordinated to me in the WVHA had anything to do with the special task troops.
Q. I proceed to Document 1643-PS. That is in document book on page 24. It is in Document Book 18, on page 76 of the German. It was introduced as Prosecution Exhibit 466 and deals with the concentration camp of Auschwitz. This is a letter which you yourself wrote on November 1942, addressing it to the Reichsminister of Finance in Berlin. I ask you, in this connection, witness, what were the prospects for enlarging Auschwitz? And what were the reasons for installing this so-called District of estates.
A. The regulating of thus matter had nothing to do with the territory of concentration camps as such. In the territory outside the concentration camp which was of considerable size and primarily and consisted of cultivating lands and woods-- clear conditions were to be created as to the Community Law. And during the construction of the special pits for water, and also during road construction we had to carry on negotiations with three to six communities--although the SS was the beneficiary of that territory. That was the reason why the legal conditions were to be simplified in order to eliminate these difficulties. This, however, is no exceptional case. The same procedure was used there as would have been used in a special training field. That is, regardless of whether it was a training field for the SS or for the Wermacht, they had their own special estates were they could carry out their training. As soon as two or three communities came into that sphere of interest, the territory of the concentration camp itself was large enough and was also sufficient for the construction projects.
Q. Then I shall proceed to Document 1276-PS-
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Before you leave Exhibit 466--this is a letter written by you, is it?
A. Yes, that is correct, Your Honor. And in the-
Q. And in it you propose to take additional land for the concentration camp of Auschwitz, to make it larger?
A. No, Your Honor. We had enough property around there. The competence as to community Law in this large territory was to be cleared. I just explained that in the entire area there were six communities, and that when it was proved, for instance, that when wells were built, etc, there were difficulties because we had to negotiate the whole thing with six communities. That was the reason why these six communities were to consolidate the territory which used for building purposes or agricultural purposes, into one single property, a so-called Gutsbezirk, in German. The same is applied to all the training fields used for the soldiers. That was nothing new, nothing special.
Q. It was so that all the different parcels should be under one ownership?
A. Yes, that is quite correct.
Q. And in Carrying out that plan, you proposed to pay only Racial Germans for what was taken?
A. No.
Q. Now you say no--out read this sentence with me; "Racial Germans should be compensated for their estates in money or in allotting other ground properties to them."
A. Your Honor, I don't quite see what the passage is you are reading.
Q. In the next to the last paragraph it reads. "The SS suggests that the Reich Commissar for the securing of the German element--" Do you have the right page?
Do you have the document?
A. No; not yet, Your honor.
DR. SEIDL: I believe it is on page 38.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is Document 1643-PS.
A. Yes, I have that, Your Honor.
DR. SEIDL: It is the sixth line from below, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Sixth line from the bottom.
A. It says here the Office of the Reich Commissar for the etc, etc, etc.
DR. SEIDL: The office for the consolidation of the German Nationalism agrees on principle ...
A. Yes, that is it.
THE PRESIDENT: The second sentence in that paragraph.
A. I have it, Your Honor.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. "Racial Germans should be compensated for their estates in money or in allotting other ground properties to them." Do you see that?
A. I do.
Q. Was their any suggestion to compensate Poles or Jews or the Church for property taken from them?
A. Well, I do not know that, Your Honor. Those questions were dealt with by the Reichs Commissioner for the German Racials, or then by other agencies. I don't know how they dealt with it.
Q. This is your letter, sir. This is your letter.
A. Yes.
Q. Is there any suggestion in your letter that anybody else except Racial Germans should be paid for what was taken away from them?
A. I could not tell you that, Your Honor. You see, I don't know exactly all -- All I know, it was agricultural country and that it was wooded areas. I don't know who dealt with it. I believe that the question of paying for church property was also taken care of here in this document.
Q. Where?
A. On page 43, Your Honor. It is on page 43. I see something here.
"The representative of the expert of the Reichs Ministry of Finance drew the attention to the fact that against the release of church property which is within that area of the concentration camp Auschwitz, there are no doubts as to that matter with the Reichsfuehrer-SS, no misgivings whatever. The Reichs Finance Administration, however, has only the right of disposal over church property at that moment when the property is taken by the authorities of the RSHA".
This agricultural country is being taken here. In other words, this is nothing but an administrative matter. I don't know exactly.
Q. Do you understand me now. Your letter says that the property which was used to enlarge the camp at Auschwitz came from six different sources; 1) Jewish and Polish private land owners; 2) towns in which most of the industrial property belonged to the Poles and Jews; 3) the Polish State; 4) the community; 5) the church, and 6) Racial Germans. Now, I am reading those from your letter, and the next thing you say is that of those six, Racial Germans shall be paid for property which is taken--but nobody else.
A. Yes; well, I believe that the others were not paid--of course only the Germans were paid here, and the rest of the territory was confiscated.
Q. That is the point.