Q I suggest that you let me just ask the questions, and you answer them just as briefly as you can, and if there is any particular point in the document which I wish to call your attention to, I will ask about it. Now, these camps that were to be continued after the end of the war were to be carried on the budget of the Waffen SS?
A Yes.
Q And this document shows, does it not, that in 1941, the budget plan, that there would be seven concentration camps after the war, and in 1942 that figure had been increased to eleven?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what the figure had been expanded to for 1943?
A In 1943? He did not discuss that matter, and I did not give any figure of that.
Q How is it that you discussed the peacetime budget in 1942 and had previously discussed it in 1941, but did not discuss it for 1943?
A I personally knew nothing in detail about it because I myself did not preside over the budget conference. I believe that it was the last budget conference which ever took place. That was '42. After that there were no further conferences, I believe,
Q In addition to the eleven concentration camps there was to be one concentration camp for women and two for youths, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the names of the two camps for youth that were planned to be continued?
A Well, I believe we only had two or three. That is Mohrungen and Ravensbrueck. They, however, were subordinate to the Reichs Criminal Police Office.
Q I would like to draw your attention to a statement that you made last week at Page 1259 of the record, and you stated there that it was your duty during the early days of the WVHA to administer the money of the members who supported the SS with funds.
Can you give us some idea as to what circle of the people this constituted and how their moneys were collected?
A Yes. Well, what do you mean, what funds.
Q From whom were these funds contributed, or collected, rather?
A Well, I do not know if you mean the organization of the Foerdernde Mitglieder. Generally speaking we received our money from the party or from the Reich, and apart from that, after a certain date, I believe up to the outbreak of the war, there was the organization of the Foerdernde members, these people who supported the general SS with voluntary contributions.
Q Was this SS-FM organization composed exclusively of SS members?
A Yes. Well, the members of that organization did not exactly belong to the SS. They were not members of the SS, at least not necessarily. They were not SS members who supported the SS movement. They were so-called sponsoring members, and their contributions were collected by SS agencies, and that is where they were collected.
Q I should like to go into the financial support of the SS a bit further. Can you give us some idea as to what circle of people it was that made the financial contributions voluntarily, contributions to the SS?
A That was a circle of people which consisted of all classes of the people. There were sponsoring members who would pay fifty pfennigs a month, and there were such members who would possibly give one hundred or one thousand marks.
DR. HOFFMANN: (For Defendant Scheide) Your Honor, I object to this question. The question of the sponsoring members is being dealt with by the International Military Tribunal I, and I do not believe that the Defendant Pohl can possibly give us any further details as to this matter.
MR. ROBBINS: May I ask that the Court reserve decision until after recess at which time I will state my reasons more fully for going into this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we are about to sustain you, but we will put it off if you like.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons take your seat in the courtroom.
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have only a very small number of questions concerning the financial support of the SS, only three or four, perhaps. The witness has given some testimony on that subject on direct examination and I should like permission to crossexamine him briefly on it.
Q Would you give us some idea as to whom the contribution came from?
A The contributions came from all circles of the population. The members consisted of and were included in all classes. They were voluntary contributions and the individual was able to determine just how much he was going to pay.
Q Were contributions made by members outside of the circle of persons known as FM, Financial Supporters of the SS?
AActually this was the only organization which received these contributions. Outside of this circle of financial supporters, contributions were occasionally made, but I do not have any details about them.
Q There were contributions made by persons who were not members of the FM, were there not?
A Yes.
Q And were contributions made by German industrialists?
A For myself, I am not informed about the heights and types of contribution which was made, because these contributions were accepted by the agencies of the Reich and we were not informed by them in our organization. I do not know what amounts were contained in the individual contributions.
Q I did not ask you the amounts. I merely asked you if contributions were made by German Industrialists to the SS by businessmen in Germany.
A That is possible. However, I do not have any information about it.
Q I would like to turn now to some of the documents in Book No. 3. If you have that before you, will you turn to Page 9 of the German Book, the Document 1919-PS, Exhibit 49.
This is the speech by Himmler at Posen, which you have referred to several times. Were you at Posen when this speech was delivered?
A Yes.
Q You were in the audience of Gruppenfuehrers who attended the meeting?
A Yes.
Q And you heard Himmler say "What happens to a Russian, to a Czech does not interest me in the slightest. What nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take...... Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion does not interest me."
A I have listened to that speech, yes.
Q You also heard Himmler say in referring to you in that same speech "We have huge armament works in the concentration camps. This is the sphere of activity of our friend, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Pohl. Every month we put in many millions of hours of work for armament." You heard that, did you not?
A Yes.
Q And then with reference to the clearing out of the Jews, did you hear Himmler say, "I want to talk to you about clearing out of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish Race. It's one of those things that's easy to talk about - The Jewish Race is being exterminated" and so forth.
A He personally did not discuss that with me. I only heard that in his speech.
Q You heard it in his speech?
A The speech at Posen, yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What is the date of this speech, please?
MR. ROBBINS: This is the 4th of October, 1943, Your Honor. This is Exhibit 49, in Book No. 3.
Q And then with reference to the clearing out of the Jews, did you hear Himmler say this about you? "We have taken from them what wealth they had. I have issued a strict order, which SS-Obergruppen fuehrer Pohl has carried out, that this wealth should, as a matter of course, be handed over to the Reich without reserve."
You heard that, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Now, I ask you to turn to the last part of this document, which is Himmler's speech at Cracow in April 1943.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, before you proceed to the next speech, I just want to ask a question or two about the Posen speech. Where was this delivered, this speech? Was it in a hall, in an auditorium, or out in the open?
WITNESS: This speech was delivered in a hotel where this conference took place. It was in a big hall, a Hotel hall.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: About how many were present?
WITNESS: I estimate there were 100 to 150 persons present.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And how were they invited to the conference? Were they ordered there?
WITNESS: They were ordered officially to attend this conference.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Thank you.
Q Did you attend the speech at Cracow in April 1943?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about the contents of that speech?
A No.
Q You didn't hear that Himmler had said at that speech in April 1943 that "Anti-semitism is exactly the same as delousing. Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology."
A I do not know anything about the Cracow speech and I did not read it afterwards.
Q You didn't hear that Himmler had said "We know that these clashes with Asia and Jewry are necessary for evolution."
A No.
Q With reference to the Posen speech, did you take any steps to resist the program of extermination of the Jews that he referred to there?
AAfter this speech, we discussed the subject at the table where I was sitting with the comrades. There were approximately five persons at this table. These persons did not agree at all with the speech. On the occasion of my next reporting to Himmler, I started to talk about the speech and I told him that I was not in agreement with this policy of extermination already with the consideration of the labor which the Reich was losing as a result of this action. He then very briefly told me that I did not understand anything about this matter and that I was too soft and then he went into the adjoining room. Then he returned after a while. He dismissed me very briefly without saying anything further and he would not go into this subject of the conversation any more.
Q In spite of your objection to the extermination of the Jews and the clearing out of the Jews of the various Ghettos, you continued to assist Himmler in the way that he stated in his speech, is that correct?
A Prior to this speech at Posen I had already received the order from him to deal with all objects arrived from the East and to turn them over to the Reichsbank. At the time I did not as yet know where these valuables came from, and that here we were dealing with a big plan of extermination.
Q You soon found out about that though, did you not?
A I only found out about this by means of the Economic Auditing Reports which Globocnik sent to Berlin. Only from that was I able to form a picture of what actually went on. I only heard the first official notification of this plan through Himmler's speech at Posen. Before that I had to base my opinion on assumptions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who were the five comrades of yours that discussed Himmler's speech with you after it was delivered at Posen?
WITNESS: I remember for certain that the following were present: Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt and von Herff, and I believe that Obergruppenfuehrer Hildebrandt was also seated at this table. I can not remember the names of the others.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Where is Schmidt now?
WITNESS: I don't know.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Is he living or dead?
WITNESS: He is probably still alive. However, I don't know.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Where is von Herff? Where is he?
WITNESS: Von Herff is Chief of the Personnel Main Office and he is alleged to have died during the war.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He is dead. Where is Hildebrandt?
WITNESS: I don't know if he is dead.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There is Hildebrandt?
WITNESS: Hildebrandt is still alive.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do you know where he is?
WITNESS: No, I don't know.
DR. HOFFMANN: He was witness in the first trial.
BY DR. ROBBINS:
Q. The Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt that you mention, is that the same Schmidt that you detailed to make inspections of the concentration camps, to assist Eicke?
A. Yes, the same Schmidt who in the Summer of 1943, I believe, became assistant to Glueck in order to assist him in making inspections trips to concentration camps.
Q. And he reported directly to you on information he had obtained about the concentration camps, did he not?
A. Yes, Schmidt visited concentration camps, and above the labor matters, and after having completed his tour he always would come to see me, and he reported to me about his trips.
Q. Will you turn to Document NI-500, which is Exhibit No.55 at page 50 of the German Document Book, at page 45 of the English Document Book. It is a letter from Himmler to Gluecks, and in this letter, or cable, Himmler states that he is going to send 100,000 male Jews, and 50,000 Jewesses into concentration camps during the next week. It is dated 26 January 1942. He said, "The ConcentrationCamps will have to deal with major economical problems and tasks in the next weeks. SS Gruppenfuehrer Pohl will inform you of the particulars." Did you inform Gluecks of the particulars in this case?
A. I can not recall that exactly. In January 1942, however, I didn't think that we were confronted by a greater task at that time, and I am rather lead to assume that this was transfer of the armament industries into the concentration camps, which began in May and June of 1942.
Q. And the construction and operation of those ammunition plants were under you, is that correct?
A. Yes, they were constructed by our Construction Administration on concentration camps, and the technical execution, above all the planning, was dealt with by Staatsrat Schieber the Armament referent, was responsible and competent for the transfer.
Q. You knew, did you not, or that you were told in January 1942 that 100,000 male Jews and 50,000 Jewesses were sent to concentration camps?
A. I don't believe that I received knowledge of that at the time because the transfer to concentration camps did not concern me at the time, not with regard to the allocation of labor. I can not remember today that I was informed by Gluecks. However, there was no reason for him to do it at the time.
Q. You had occasional conferences with Gluecks, did you not?
A. Not at that time, no. Not before April 1942. At that time I did not see any more of Gluecks than anybody else. At that time we did not have any official contact.
Q. So you state that you were not informed that 150,000 Jews were sent to the camps?
A. I cannot remember that I was informed of this in January 1942.
Q. With reference to your control over the concentration camp commandants, I will ask you to turn to page 64, or rather 65 in the German Document Book, Exhibit No. 60, NO-1290. If I recall your testimony correctly that on last Friday, you testified that you could not-
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, there is something wrong with the sound system. We will be interrupted for about one second until it is fixed.
THE PRESIDENT: The second is over. All right, go ahead, we will wait.
BY MR ROBBINS:
Q. (continuing) Within the last week you testified that instructions to camp commandants came from Oranienburg to the Inspectorate of concentration camps. "I cannot recall that I ever gave instructions to camp commandants myself". Does this document refresh your recollection on that? This is an instruction by you to commandants of concentration camps at Lublin, Mauthausen, Ravensbrueck, Stutthof and numerous other camps, concerning working time.
It said: "I should like to point out that the working time of prisoners, laid down by order, which amounts to 11 hours daily and so forth, has to be kept up also during the winter months." And the last paragraph: "Up to 2 December 1943, all those detachments are to be reported to the Chief of Office Group-D, for submission to me, with which a net working time of 11 hours daily can not be kept up. Reasons for it will have to be given." It is a fact, is it not, that you quite frequently gave orders and instructions to the concentration camp commandants?
A. Yes, I did not directly write to camp commandants, and this document here shows that it was handled by Amt D-2 on occasion of allocation of labor, and it was not by me. That is nothing unusual. It happened quite frequently. The matter was discussed with me before, and then it would be provided with my signature. In this way, of course, with regard to allocation of labor many types of orders were passed onto the camp commanders.
Q. My copy of the document shows that it was signed by you. Will you look at the document again?
A. Yes, that is correct. I am not disputing that I signed it. I only said it shows that the matter was handled by Amt D-2, that is, Maurer, and, this matter probably was discussed with me before, and that is why it was provided with my signature. It bears my signature.
Q. There was instructions by you directly to the concentration camp commandant; I also refer to the order on 20 April 1942, which we discussed previously, and the one where you said the working employment must be in its true meaning of the word exhaustive, and that there is no limit to working hours. That is another order by you to the concentration camp commandants, is it not?
A. Yes, of course, it is through the allocation of labor, and that perhaps was an order to the camp commander which I signed, that is correct.
Q. Now your testimony of last Friday that you did not ever give any instructions to concentration camp commandants is not true, then is that right?
A. No, I mean something was different by that. I mean that my direct orders to the camp commanders, or of decrees, of an executive type, of what should not concern the field of allocation of labor.
Q. Excuse me, you weren't asked about the type of work that you gave orders concerning. You were simply asked by Dr. Seidl as to whether you ever gave orders or instructions to concentration camp commanders and you answered that you did not. Now, in Document R-129, which was dated 30 April 1942, which is an order by you to all camp commanders, is a direct order by you concerning the working conditions in the concentration camps. It provides that the employment must be in the true meaning of the word "exhaustive" and that there will be no limit to working hours, provides any circumstances which may result in a shortening of the work hours, for example, meals, roll calls have to be restricted to a minimum which cannot be condensed any more. It is forbidden to allow long walks to the place of work, and noon intervals only are for eating purposes. He goes on to prescribe the guard duties, and it even provides for sentries on horseback, watch dogs, movable watch towers, movable obstacles. It is a fact, isn't it, that your testimony on last Friday is not correct?
A. No, I stick to my testimony that I on my part did not issue any direct orders to the concentration camp commanders, but only through the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. After all, in my staff I had no apparatus to deal with these matters. In any case that is how I understood it.
THE PRESIDENT: We are using a lot of time on something that is pretty plain here. What the witness is saying is that he did not speak directly to the camp commanders, but he did give them orders through the Inspectorate. It is just like telling your secretary to write a letter to somebody.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) I ask you to turn then to Document NO-599 on page 75 of the German document book. It is Exhibit 63 on page 74 of the English Book No. III. You testified that you had little or nothing to do with concentration camps on labor allocation in the east in the Government General. This is a file memorandum by you. The subject is the taking over of the Jewish labor camps from the SS and Police Leaders in the Government General, and it states that there were present Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Globocnik, Gluecks, Loerner, Schellin, Maurer, Florstedt, and Dr. Horn, and it goes on to say that the following points were agreed upon.
Approximately ten labor camps in the SS and Police Chief existing in the district of Lublin will be taken over by the WVHA as branch camps of Concentration Camp Lublin. Were those plans ever carried through; were those camps made subordinate to the WVHA?
A. Yes, as far as I can recall. Early in January, 1944, the camps were taken over as labor camps. They were branch camps of the Concentration Camp Lublin, and thus they came within the field of competence of the Inspectorate of Amtsgruppe D.
Q. And that was under you?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. And it says that these labor camps will be converted into concentration camps. I want you to tell us what happened when a labor camp is converted into a concentration camp.
A. From the moment on when the labor camps were annexed to a concentration camp the inmates became prisoners.
Q. And they became concentration camp inmates?
A. Yes.
Q. It says - this file memorandum states - that through being taken over by the SS WVHA the inmates of the labor camps will become concentration camp prisoners, and in the last paragraph it states that the participants of this conference realize that the taking over of all these labor camps by the WVHA will be possible only if the guards detailed at present for these camps will remain there and be subordinated to the WVHA. Were those plans carried out also?
A. Yes, I have already stated that camps, as far as they were still in existence in January '44, all these camps were taken over.
Q. Your supervision, the supervision of the WVHA over these camps extended beyond merely allocation of labor, is that not correct?
A. No, the entire incorporation was carried out in line with the entire simplification of the working procedures, and that is why the camps were taken over.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Let me ask a question. What kind of people were in the labor camps?
A. Well, I don't know myself, Your Honor. I myself have not seen these camps. I am not exactly informed as to who actually was located within these labor camps.
Q. Do you know whether it was free labor, voluntary labor?
A. I don't think so, no. It must have been labor camps which were subordinate and which had been established by the Police and SS Leader of the district. I don't believe that he would put free workers into these camps. He would only put those people into these camps for security reasons or because of criminal reasons.
Q. It was not a place where voluntary laborers came from the east then?
A. No, no, it had nothing to do with that.
Q. Well then, what was the difference between a labor camp and a concentration camp? They were both prisoners.
A. The labor camps were branch camps of the concentration camps. The labor camps were always located at the places of work, either at the location of plants or wherever work happened to be.
Q. Well, what difference would it make to a laborer whether he was in a labor camp or a concentration camp? He was a prisoner in either event, wasn't he?
A. There was no difference. There was no difference whatsoever.
Q. Why did they change a labor camp to a concentration camp? What was the difference?
A. The labor camps which were so annexed to the concentration camps until that time were first of all related to the SS and Police Leaders. They were institutions by the police which had nothing to do with the concentration camps, and they were now to be annexed to the concentration camps so that their administration will be placed into one hand.
After all, there was not only one Police and SS Leader in that district, but there were five, and each one had his individual labor camps. Therefore, there were five different competences. They were removed through those measures.
Q. So then the result was that the SS took the prisoners from the five branches of the police and put them under their own custody?
A. Yes. It was a simplification of the control, the supervision.
Q. Centralization of the control?
A. Yes.
Q. But it did not help the man that was in the camp; it did not change him in any way?
A. No, it did not change his status at all. He was not affected by this whatsoever.
Q. Except that I suppose you claim that he was better treated by the SS than he was by the Gestapo?
A. The Gestapo was not included in the administration of the camps. The labor camps were in any case subordinate to the SS because the SS and Police Leader, after all, was also a member of the SS. There was no difference.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that is probably true.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. I have one more document in this book that I would like to ask you about and that is the next one following the one we have just discussed, NO-1548, Exhibit 64, on page 78 of the German and 76 of the English. This is an order from Hoess of Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA to the concentration camp commanders, and he requires that reports on protective custody camps will have to be made periodically and that this report will include the number of executions carried out. Now, I ask you, did you receive these reports which were made by the concentration camp commanders to Hoess?
A. No.
Q. You never saw any of them?
A. No, no, I cannot remember ever having seen a protective custody report from any of the camps.
Q. Did Hoess or Gluecks ever tell you about the number of executions or special treatments?
A. No, I never discussed these matters with him.
Q. Did you know the protective custody reports and reports on executions were made out?
A. I did not have any knowledge of it. I was able to assume that. However, I believe that these reports did not go to Hoess, but that they were sent to the RSHA. In any case I did not receive any knowledge of them.
Q. You have said that you talked to Gluecks every Friday. Didn't Gluecks ever tell you at any time about the number of executions that were being carried out in the concentration camps?
A. No, no. We never discussed that.
Q. Turn to Book No. IV if you will, on page 17 of the German and 16 of the English, Document NO-020. Here you report to Himmler that during Eicke's time there were only six camps but that after you took over the concentration camps their number had been increased to 185. Is that statement correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. In this letter you were taking credit, were you not, for the increase in the number of the concentration camps?
A. No, this statement has completely different meaning. Already at that time, in March, 1942, I had pointed out to Himmler that besides the administration of one of the biggest main offices I was not now willing to take over the entire inspectorate for which up to now two leaders had been solely responsible. Already at that time I had pointed out the steady increase in the number of these camps, and with this final note I pointed out to him once more just how enormous this whole matter had extended, and that is the reason why I made the statement. I did not have any reason, and I did not have the authority, to establish concentration camps, in my opinion, because I was not decisive in determining their number.
Q I ask you now to turn to Document NO-1545 at page 59 of the German and page 46 of the English. This is Exhibit No. 90, and concerns the establishment of brothels for concentration camps. You have testified that you knew nothing about this. Is that correct?
In the letter it is stated that it was a wish of the chief of the Main Office that the two rooms provided for the prostitutes be particularly well-furnished. Do I recollect your testimony correctly, that you knew nothing about this?
A I did not say I did not have any knowledge of it. In another document I pointed out to the camp commanders that these special buildings should not be placed in the middle of the camp. Of course I knew that brothels existed there. I have never denied it. I only said that I did not know what was done with the funds of this special account which has been mentioned here. I don't know what Amtsgruppe D did with the funds of these special accounts. I mentioned that perhaps this money was used in order to maintain these institutions.
Q I think we are beginning to get at the truth of the matter. The funds from the houses of prostitution went to Amtsgruppe D, is that correct? The profits of them?
A Yes, as far as I know.
Q I should like to show you Document NO-400 and ask you if this is your order. I am sorry that I don't have the German ready.
THE INTERPRETER: May we have an English copy?
Q This is your regulation, isn't it?
A Yes, that is an excerpt from the regulations which pertains to the granting of special privileges to prisoners, and I used this order; and the regulations about the visiting of brothels came from Himmler himself who personally ordered the establishment of brothels. That was not my original idea.
Q But you provided for the regulation, and you provided for the amount of money which would be received by the prostitutes, did you not? This provided that 45 Pfennigs out of the charge of two Reichsmarks will will go to the brothel; supervising female prisoners will get 5 Pfennigs.
The remainder of one and a half Reichsmarks should go to Amtsgruppe D. That was your idea, was it not?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Turning to another subject - still concerning the profits - to the WVHA, I ask you if you know anything about the charges which the concentration camp commanders made to the RSHA for the execution and cremation of concentration camp inmates. This money also went to the WVHA, did it not? The profits from execution of inmates?
A I know nothing about that.
Q I have in my hand a bill which was submitted by concentration camp Natzweiler commander to the RSHA in Strassbourg for the expenses for executing twenty prisoners and, cremating them. The bill rendered was for one hundred and twenty-five Reichsmarks and five Pfennigs. It states that the commander of Natzweiler would be obliged for an early remittance of the said amount. Do you mean to say that you don't know anything about the charges that the concentration camp made for executing prisoners?
A It is impossible that I, as Chief of the WVHA, should take care of the small expenses from the commanders of the concentration camps. After all, I was not a clerk. The matter was completely unknown to me. I don't know that any bills were written out on these matters.
Q It is a small amount - 127 Reichsmarks - for twenty prisoners. Does that sound about right to you - the charge? Or does that sound excessive?
A I can not make any statement at all about that because I have heard of it here for the first time. That any bills were written out.....
Q Isn't it true that Amtsgruppe A audited these expenses and that the funds were sent through Amtsgruppe A? That they were supervised by Amtsgruppe D, which was in charge of the concentration camp?