A I said before either to the camp commandant or to Office D-II, Office Group D, directly. That depended where the enterprise was located. If the camp was near an enterprise, the owner of the enterprise would apply directly to the camp commandant and he saw to it that the application would reach Office D-II.
Q Did the private industry have any particular interest in employing inmates because there was a different wage scale, or what were the reasons, generally speaking, why a private enterprise would apply for labor consisting of camp inmates?
A The essential motive for private industry was exclusively the shortage of labor - or manpower - not the wage scale, because private enterprises had to pay the same wages to the Reich as they had to pay for their other workers their civilian labor. It depended on what sort of work the inmates would do - their wages as skilled laborers, or assistant laborers, or as unskilled laborers- but the actual wage scale was the same.
Q What was the position of the Chief of Office Group C, that is to say, Kammler and his special staff, with regard to labor by inmates and who issued orders to Kammler?
AAs far as labor allocation was concerned, Kammler's position in the special staff was the same as the head of an enterprise, that is to say, for those tasks, he had to obtain labor for these things in just the same way as the head of any other enterprise. The rule was that he would negotiate with Gluecks directly, and, as he carried out exclusively Reich tasks, these workers were put at his disposal every time.
Q. Who was in charge of the so-called A projects or construction program which were connected with subterranean allocation of labor - and which ones became known to you, yourself?
Did you inspect the subterranean factories in Dora where V-weapons were produced, and what were your impressions at the time?
A These constructions were made by Kammler's special staff and in order to carry them out, Kammler would include private firms occasionally, above all, as far as the leadership personnel was concerned. Some of these projects I saw myself. Some tunnels which were part of a dead end and had been rebuilt, that is to say, concrete additions, lighting installations, air conditioning, and other things which are important for enterprises were made. I also went to Dora for the first time before work was started and later on, once or twice, I think in 1943 and once in 1944. Dora was a subterranean installation where formerly the Economic Research G.m.b.H. , a Reich enterprise, stored oil and other fuel. There were several large tunnels which had been driven into the mountains, They were about 10 or 12 meters wide and 10 meters high. Railway tracks would directly lead into them in order to discharge the various supplies. When I saw this installation for the first time, it was the typical picture of a subterranean installation. The wall did not have a concrete surface, rather humid, as you see it quite frequently in tunnels. The first work done there was to lay concrete; also the ceiling was given concrete, and air conditioning was added, lighting installations - and when I saw the installation for the second time, later on, it was difficult to recognize it again. It was completely dry and air conditioning was successful and these tunnels showed all the equipment which was necessary to produce V-weapons. The inmates were billeted at first in emergency billets, and I think some of them were billeted in the tunnels themselves.
For the first period, conditions were probably not particularly good, but simultaneously with the extension of these tunnels, a camp was built for inmates and that camp was situated in the immediate vicinity of the tunnels, in a piece of woods, which was protected. I know that great care was taken when this location was selected to find a well-protected spot near the forest so that the inmates, during their leisure hours, would have the opportunity to relax, without being bothered by the enterprise, but this particular camp, as time went on, was not sufficiently large, because the installation was extended and new tunnels were built and then more camps were installed, and these camps from the point of view of the air raids were scattered around the location of the enterprise. I myself did not see these new camps.
Q Several witnesses have testified before this court describing the conditions in these subterranean enterprises. What can you yourself tell us about this from your own observations? Will you comment on the testimony of these witnesses?
A I saw when these inmates worked in these tunnels and conditions, once the tunnels had been equipped, were entirely satisfactory. As I said before, the tunnels were dry, warm, well air-conditioned, and the tunnels were so large that there was much freedom of movement. They were not so narrow as they were in the tunnel near Mauthausen, which I inspected later on. All the other tunnels were not so large, and therefore the enterprise was somewhat more narrow. I do not know whether there were day and night shifts in Dora. It is possible, because of the conditions that existed and the program for V-weapons was worked on at top speed.
Q B-projects were called construction work which was carried out above ground, and I would like to ask you what do you know about those projects and who was in charge?
A. Well, of the "B" projects I cannot recall that I saw any of them. I don't know whether part of this, for instance, was at Fallersleben with the special staff as its agency. I saw little of this, and I cannot recall it.
Q. The next secret assignment was called the "S" project. What project was there, and who was in charge there?
A. These "S" projects were also part of the Kammler Special Staff. I do not know from where that designation comes. I assume that is an abbreviation for special Inspectorate, because Kammler, apart from the Inspectorates belonging to Office Group-C, had another special Inspectorate for these special assignments, which may be the reason for that abbreviation. Sofar as the inspection was concerned, I saw S-1, I believe it was 1, and S-3. S-1 was near Wehrsten in Thuringia. This was a testing staff where weapons called V-weapons were tested. It was a slate quarry which included tunnnels, and there the engines and other machines were sorted, which were required in order to build or test the furnaces of the V-weapons. I was at that place once. S-3 at Ohrdruff also was the Fuehrer's headquarters, which was to be built there. For the first time I visited it before this construction was begun when Himmler visited that location. Then perhaps in 1943 -- or 1944 inmates were used, there and did their work. Some outside deep tunnels had to be built into the mountain, and within those tunnels special rooms were broken out which were to serve as rooms. That work was carried out by the use of all technical equipment, and was the same sort of work that is done when a tunnel is made. Some of the inmates were working on equipping the rooms, once they had broken out of the mountain.
They were dressed with wood, and made habitable. The billets for the inmates were in some cases near the location, and I saw them. They were the usual inmate barracks. S-1 work became more intense there, and more quarters for inmates were installed, which again were built under consideration of the air attacks, but I did not see them.
Q. What were the conditions in those "S" enterprises?
A. When I visited them for the last time in 1944, and saw the work, it was rather heavy work, of course, to break a tunnel, and the work in the quarries, was not easy. Especially if somebody had to do this work who was not used to working physically. But I do not know what the shifts were, and all of that work was under enormous pressure, which came from the Amt, because of the fact that project D-3 was to be finished in a period of time which was quite impossible to keep. The Fuehrer's headquarters were to be transferred to Silesia, and there was an enormous building site there which Kammler told me about, but I did not see it myself. It was directed by the Todt Organization. That Silesian enterprises was never completed, and, therefore, the work in Thuringia was rushed, which was S-3. It was to be completed within quite an impossible short period of time, and this rush and top speed of course affected the conditions of work.
Q. You said that all these enterprises were directed by Kammler's Special Staff. Kammler was also head of Office Group-C, and I would like to ask you as Chief of WVHA, did you have any decisive authority in this work of Kammler's Special Staff.
A. I had no authority over Kammler's Special Staff.
He was subordinated as the Chief of Special Staff directly to Himmler.
Q. Other witnesses described the labor conditions in Gusen. What was that assignment, and are you in a position to tell us something about this from your own observations?
A. Gusen was also a subterranean enterprise, and I believe it was a Messerschmidt work. It was also possible that other aircraft factories were installed there. The Messerschmidt was the largest installation. Here again tunnels were driven into the mountains. These tunnels, as I have said before, were not as large as those at Dora, but at the same time there was enough space for aircrafts, that is to say, the fuselage at least could be mounted there. The enterprise once you visited there gave you the impression of an antcolony. I do not know how many people worked there in extending the tunnels, and simultaneously the effect of the work on the tunnels which were ready, had a production in full swing, and both of these enterprises overlapped, and this confusion did not make conditions any better but interfered with the work. The erection of this enterprise was in the hands of the Messerschmidt works, but the extension of the tunnels was carried out by Kammler's Special Staff.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any Amt of the WVHA that you did have control over?
THE WITNESS: I had control in the WVHA over Office Groups A,B,C, and D, sofar as labor allocation was concerned.
Q. You had no control over Kammler and his Special construction group?
A. Kammler in the WVHA was head of the Office Group-C, but the Special Staff of Kammler's was an agency which was not part of the WVHA, but stood outside of that office. It was subordinated directly to Himmler, and the collaboraters came from all branches of the armed forces, the Waffen-SS, as well as the Army and the Luftwaffe.
Q. Well, except for the special construction group under Amt-C under Kammler, and Amt-D, you did have supervision over all of the others? Amt-D was the Inspectorate, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You have already said that you had nothing to do with that; that Gluecks and Maurer operated that?
A. No, in the Office Group-B - - or C, I was in charge of the labor allocation. That was why in March 1943 that was put under my direction because I was to look after the labor allocation, and see the Todt Agency there.
Q. You told us yesterday that the Inspectorate, that was Amt-D, was is not?
A. Yes, Office Group-D.
Q. Well, all right, Office Group-D. Did you have little or no control over that?
A. May I add especially something on the position of Office Group-D briefly?
Q. I thought you did that yesterday?
A. Yes.
Q. That was the Inspectorate, was it not?
A. Yes, quite so, Mr President.
Q And technically it was an amtsgruppe or office under your supervision, but actually it was independent of you.
A It was independent of me in all matters relating to security police of the RSHA, as far asit concerns labor allocation. I believe, Mr. President, that perhaps with your permission I could explain this briefly once more. The Inspectorate which was formed in 1936 is the essential office and the top agency for all concentration camps; it was the final agency as it were of a line to Group D which was connected with all concentration camps; nothing was above that Inspectorate; but from the Inspectorate a line went to Himmler as it were and the others, it went to the RSHA. Within the Inspectorate as the top agency and the final agency all questions were dealt with which concerned the administration of concentration camps, and as well as all other questions concerning inmates were dealt with, came from either Himmler or from the Secret State Police, the Gestapo, that is to say the RSHA, and only as late as 1942 another line was connected with me, and I was at the end of that line; and through that line all questions of labor allocation were dealt with -- nothing else. My staff had no experts for concentration camp matters, nor did I have any files. Everything that went through that cable, as I said before, was discussed once a week between Gluecks, Maurer and myself, and -
Q What you are saying is that only with respect to labor allocations was Amt D subordinated to you; in all other respects it remained as it had before 1942, responsible either to Himmler or to the RSHA?
A Yes, that is so.
Q Now, what about the Special Construction Group under Amt C?
A You mean office group C, Mr. President.
Q Yes. That is different from Amt C, is it?
A Yes.
Q Office Group C.
A Now, Office Group C was just an office group like A and B; they are the top office groups of the WVHA, and this Office Group C worked on all questions which were related to construction matters of the Waffen SS, and later on of the Police.
That did not include all the special constructions and armament constructions to which we have referred, that is to say, the transfer of armament industries underground, etc. These were different matters, and for that reason the Special Staff of Kammler was founded, because that staff, represented the interests of the army, the navy and the Luftwaffe and Kammler in the form of a special assignment quite apart from being charged with Office Group C, carried out those tasks under Himmler's direction. Those tasks, in other words, had nothing to do with his position and task of Chief of Office Group C for the Waffen SS.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Who was responsible for all administrative matters, such as housing and medical care in the concentration camps?
A For all these tasks the Inspectorate, and later on Office Group D was responsible. These tasks would reach that office because Office Group D had an administrative office of its own and a chief doctor of its own and all other equipment and its own personnel offices
Q All of that was the WVHA, was it not?
AAs the final Ministerial agency, yes; unlike all other divisional arrangements medical care was not part of that; that of course would come under the Reich Physician SS because I did not have any medical equipment of my own in the main office, and the WHA therefore would be concerned only with those questions which came to it from all bigger units of the Waffen-SS divisions, or corps were Ministerial decisions were required as all the lower grade organizations which I believe is usual in the armed forces of all countries; they had their own administrative office. In our case, for instance, they are called army administrative offices, I believe -
Q You don't mean to say the Waffen SS had anything to do with the medical corps of concentration camps, do you?
A The Waffen SS?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q I understood you to say that -- if the translation was correct. That is all.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, when in March, 1942, Himmler acquainted you with his decision to put the Inspectorate of the concentration camps under you as Chief of the WVHA; did he draw your attention expressly to the fact that this new relationship would be concerned only with questions of labor allocation; is that correct?
A He emphasized that expressly; I was to deal only with questions of labor allocation.
Q And furthermore, that the competence of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps and that of the RSHA -- would remain unchanged?
A That is correct too.
Q The Court asked you before what Office Groups were under your direction, for example, the WVHA, and you pointed out Office Groups A, B, C, and D, of which the WVHA consisted chiefly. Should you not also have referred to Office Group W, which was one of the original Office Groups of the WVHA?
A Office Groups A, B, and C were, as far as their competence is concerned, the actual office groups of the administrative center of the WVHA. Office Group W, in that form, was established only in 1942. Up to that moment the various economic enterprises which were part of it, were incorporated to the main office in a different manner. They were concentrated into an office group only in 1942, but that office group was also part of the WVHA, However, the difference was in its tasks; in its tasks it differed considerably from the other office groups.
Q I shall now turn to Document NI-034, in Document Book XI, on page 1, both in the English and the German texts. This was Exhibit 297, and it is an affidavit by Rudol Hoess, and I would like to ask you, witness, this is a somewhat elaborate statement, and I would like you to comment on those statements which seem to be important to you in connection with this trial, and where you are in a position to say something from your own knowledge.
A Once again I must correct Hoess' view which he has expressed under paragraph three. There he says that the WVHA, directed by Obergruppehfuehrer Oswald Pohl was responsible for all administrative work, such as housing, feeding and medical care in the concentration camps. This opinion one comes across time and again and it is only correct insofar as civil service authority is concerned. I have just said that the final agency for all these matters, since 1936, was the Inspectorate of the concentration camps, even after 1942, when it was called Office Group B. Here all these matters as far as housing, feeding and medical care was concerned, were dealt with finally. Now, the administrative authority of the WVHA dealt with only those questions which needed a Ministerial administrative decision. Then, paragraph B-1, on page 4, he says from 1940 on in the entire Reich territory so-called outside work camps were set up. From my own knowledge I could not confirm whether this is correct or not, but I am not inclined to assume it because as far as I have watched the developments myself, outside camps were set up only after 1942. Whether in exceptional cases before this time, inmates were sent to enterprizes outside the camps, do not know. In my interrogations I was frequently asked what priority existed as far as the labor allocation for the Buna Works in Auschwitz was concerned. On page 6 in Hoess' affidavit, paragraph 2, it becomes clear that Himmler in the spring of 1941 gave the orders to furnish ten thousand inmates of that camp for the construction of the Buna Works.
The employment of inmates in the mines of the Hermann Goering Works, of which he speaks at the bottom of page 7, I knew about. That employment was based on an order from Hitler himself which was transmitted through the OKW. The negotiations on that labor assignment Hoess had with the Reich Commissioner for Coal. The various persons and enterprises he names I did not know.
Q. As Exhibit 298 the prosecution has submitted an affidavit by a certain Phillip Grimm. This is Document NO-2126 in Document Book XI, page 20, page 11 of the English text. I would like you to comment on this affidavit, especially as far as the allegation is concerned that you as chief of the WVHA had issued the order on the basis of which release of inmates was stopped and that these inmates had to remain in custody.
A. I gave no such order. I was not in a position to issue such an order because I could not decide how long an inmate was to remain in custody. I said repeatedly that committing or releasing inmates was entirely the task of the RSHA.
Q. Another affidavit submitted by the prosecution comes from a certain Schwartz. This is Exhibit 299 and Document NO-2125, and it is on page 30 of the German book and on page 15 of the English Document Book XI. Can you comment on the assertions in this affidavit?
A. On page 32 Schwartz asserts in the case of all outside departments which were under Amtsgruppe W the respective chiefs of the office had to apply for these prisoners to D-II. This might create the impression as if all outside detachments worked under Office Group W, or at least were supervised by it. That is not correct. This only concerned those outside detachments which were part of the enterprises of Office Group W. His statement in the same paragraph that the housing and feeding of all outside detachments was a responsibility of Office D-II is incorrect also. For all those outside details and enterprises, as far as feeding, housing, and medical care were concerned, the man in charge of the enterprise was exclusively responsible, because without being prepared to look after that side of it he would not be given any inmates.
As far as transport questions are concerned, the following might be said quite generally. When inmates were transferred from one camp to the work camp, the transports were put together by the camp commandant. Only if transports were of a larger extent, between one camp and another, then sometimes Office D-II would take a hand. That is to say, when it was necessary to contact the Reich Ministry of Transport, Office D-II would negotiate with that Ministry. But the usual transports, which were of average size, were made by the camp commandants themselves.
On page 34 he refers to S-III, in the middle of page 34. Even as far as the providing of bread is concerned, S-III was not in a position to do this so that in the end the administration of Buchenwald itself had to be consulted. Schwartz was not quite aware of the channels there, because the outside camp, S-III, was economically part of the administration of the Buchenwald camp and therefore had to be provided with food and clothing from that camp.
Q. Now, Exhibit 301 is an affidavit by Kurt Parry. This is Document NI-310, Document Book 11, page 31 of the English book.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Dr. Seidl, may I offer a suggestion, that in the examination of your witness if you could direct his attention specifically to the point that you desire to have discussed it would be easier to follow you, and I think you would cover the ground much more satisfactorily all the way around, rather than merely to invite his comment generally on a document. Let's have a specific question, answer, question, answer.
DR. SEIDL: I will put specific questions to the witness.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. In Exhibit 301 it is asserted among other things, on page 3, applications for the allocation of inmates were made by the firms on special forms, or were addressed to the camp commander. Is that correct, witness? This is on page 5 of the German text.
A. Such cases might have happened. I said before that enterprises would address themselves directly to the commandant of a camp.
Q. I shall now turn to Exhibit 305, which is Document NO-2326on page 60 of the English book. This is an affidavit by Dr. Katzenellenbogen, and on page 4 of the German text it says the following and I quote: "The camp commandant, Pister and Barnewald, went with Kammler of Amtsgruppe C to Dora, and Barnewald complained to Kammler that these conditions were impossible and that something must be done immediately." Dr. Kammler replied literally, "Gruppenfuehrer Pohl could not care less how many people will perish in this enterprise, and his only interest is to finish this construction enterprise as quickly as possible." I would like to ask you, witness, if this assertion by Katzenellenbogen is correct.
A. I am unable to investigate whether it is correct or not. I do not know whether Katzenellenbogen was present, which I think was unlikely because that remark--
TEE PRESIDENT: The point is, did you say what Kammler said you said. That is pretty bad. Are you quoted correctly in this statement?
Q. The Court has justifiably asked you that you should state whether you yourself made such a statement to Kammler.
A. That is a typical Kammler statement -
THE PRESIDENT: But is it true?
A. I am coming to that. No; all I wanted to do was to explain why it could not be true. In this sense I would not make such a statement either to Kammler or to anybody else. That would be indirect contradiction to all my efforts to have humane conditions.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Prosecution Exhibit 310 is a letter of the Chief of Staff of the Waffen-SS to a number of agencies. This is Document NO-2143, in Document Book 11, on page 102, and page 99 of the English text. Are the contents of this letter known to you? It says here, among other things, and I quote:
"Reichsfuehrer-SS has ordered the transfer of the SS officers and guard detachments of the special camp Hinzert, and of the prison camps within the region of the West Wall into the Waffen-SS, and their subordination to the Inspector of Concentration Camps."
This letter is dated 27 June, 1940.
A. Nothing is known to me of this process.
Q. I shall now turn to Document NI-1240, on page 106 of the English text, Document Book XI. It is Prosecution Exhibit 314, and is a letter from Goering of 18 February 1941 which deals with letters of policy for the Auschwitz Buna plant. You, yourself, are not named in the distribution list of this document. I would like to ask you did you hear of this Goering letter of Goering through any other channel?
A. No.
Q. I shall turn to Document NO-3031, Document Book 11, on page 118 of the English text. This is a file note, and the Prosecution has submitted it as Exhibit 316. It concerns an inspection made by the Reichsfuehrer-SS in Lublin and Zamosz on 20 July 1941; and I would like to ask you, were you present in that inspection, and did you ever hear anything about the contents of this file note and the measures ordered in it by the Reichsfuehrer -SS?
A. I was not present when this inspection took place, and I assume that the note comes from Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik.
Q. I shall now turn -
A. May I perhaps point out one thing. In sub-paragraph 14 it says, "The organization of construction departments of Office 2 for the deputy of the Reichsfuehrer (building inspection, central construction managements, construction managements) appointed by SS-Gruppenfuehrer Pohl has been approved by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, as also the preliminary measures already introduced."
This refers to the new regulations in the construction program which at that time prevailed throughout the Reich and the occupied territories, and it is my belief that a central construction management was also located in Lublin.
Q. I now turn to Document NO-500 which is a telegram from Himmler to Gluecks, page 134 of the English Document Book XI. It says there at the end, and I quote verbatim:
"The concentration camps will have to deal with major economic problems and tasks in the coming weeks. SS-Gruppenfuehrer Pohl will inform you of particulars."
I would like to ask you, That were those economic problems and tasks?
A. This telegram dates from January, 1942, and I assume that it must be the big armament tasks which were imminent at that time, and which were tackled in the coming months. I do not recall in detail what is referred to here but I think it probably must have been this large-scale armament program which was begun in April and May of 1942.
Q. Then I shall turn to the last document in this document book. This is Document NO-596, on page 142 of the English Document Book. This is a letter which you, yourself, addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS on 8 April 1942, and it concerns the construction and equipment of the Volkswagen-factory in Fallersleben.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you speaking about Exhibit 323. That is what we have on page 140. 142?
DR. SEIDL: I am talking of Exhibit 324. I have no question to ask the witness concerning Exhibit 323.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. I would like the witness to comment on paragraph 3 of this document, NO-596, where a Fuehrer Order is referred to. What can you tell us from your own knowledge about this?
A. At that time I and Prof. Borsche and Kammler negotiated on this business. The former Volkswagen factory in Fallersleben by virtue of a order of Hitler was to be changed into a foundry. And Kammler, as chief of Office Group C., was to be in charge of this reconversion. Himmler, himself, wished to have the management of this work under his influence. The construction work, as far as I can recall, was carried out by Kammler, but the other question -- that is to say, who was to be in charge of the enterprise -- was decided to Himmler's disadvantage.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that finish this book, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: Yes, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take our recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: Military Tribunal II is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q As Exhibit No. 325, Amtsgruppe D, Office Group D, regarding concentration camps of the 1st May, 1942, this is Document NO-604, Document Book No. XII, page 2, both in the English and German texts; it deals with labor senate, clergymen labor; and I ask you now did you actually cause this letter to be written, and during your term of office, did you ever make any decision concerning labor assignment for clergymen? When you answer this question, please take a look at Document NO-1382 which has been introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit 326.
A The order to employ every clergyman was issued by Himmler personally; in this case I remember exactly that as far as the employment of prisoners was concerned, he had ordered that they work in the gardens at Dachau; that was the reason why I had ordered that the clergymen work in the office, as it says in the last document.
Q As Exhibit 328 and 329 the Prosecution introduced two documents, and they referred to Himmler's order for armament work in the concentration camps. These are documents NO-598 and NO-3032, in Document Book XII, on page 7 of the German and the English books. Would you make a statement with reference to these two documents?
A Staatsrat Schieber at that time worked on the armament tasks in the Speer Ministry at the time. He discussed these matters repeatedly with Himmler as far as they referred to the concentration camps. As a result of these discussions I received a letter, Exhibit No. 328, from Himmler, and together with Schieber I discussed their execution in detail. The way they were carried out can be seen from Document No. NO-3032, and, consisted, first of all the construction, the Armament Industries of the Gustloff Works in the concentration camp of Buchenwald. In the course of the tie-over a few additional enterprises were incorporated in the concentration camps.
Q I shall now come to NO-497, which was introduced as Exhibit No. 332 by the Prosecution, in Document Book No. 12, on page 14 of the German text, and on page 27 of the English Document Book. That is a teletype from Brigdefuhrer Gluecks to Himmler's Adjutant, SSHauptsturmfuehrer Grothmann, and I ask you, did you know anything about that matter?
A No.
Q Then I shall come to Document No. 654-PS, which was introduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 333, in Document Book No. 12, on page 28 of the English and on Page 15 of the German Document Book. This apparently is a record of discussions of officials of the Justice Ministry with the Reichsfuehrer-SS on 18 September 1942. The document bears neither date nor signature. Neither can it be seen by whom this report was written. I will ask you now, witness, did you know anything about the conference, and did you know anything about Himmler's intentions to destroy asocial element and professional criminals by work. Did you have any knowledge whatsoever about these developments?
A I did not participate in this conference, nor did I hear anything about it. The participants who are mentioned here belong to the Reichsministry of Justice, and the RSHA, and to Himmler's personal Staff. Neither did I have any knowledge of the contents, nor was I informed of the contents of these conferences later on, nor did Himmler ever issue any directive to me, or tole me anything to the effect that asocial elements were to be delivered to him by the penal execution authorities with the object of exterminating them by work.