AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 30 July 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
HEINZ GERHARD FRANZ SCHWARZ - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. McHANEY:
Q. Witness, before the recess you had testified that you went to the gravel-dredging operation of DEST at Auschwitz in 1941, '42 and '43, and that there were no inmates employed there. Who sent you on those trips; did the Defendant Mummenthey?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you report back to him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. I want to put a document to you by the Defendant Mummenthey. If the Tribunal please, this is in Book XVI on Page 63, Document NO-2155, Prosecution's Exhibit 441. Witness, this is memorandum signed by the Defendant Mummenthey dated August, 1943, and it is to Staff W. It says: "The following plants and work shops of my department are employing prisoners, listed under the subnumber 10, in Upper Silesian Gravel Works, Auschwitz." What do you have to say about that, Witness? There is apparently a contradiction between your observations at Auschwitz and the Defendant Mummenthey's memorandum. Mummenthey says there were prisoners employed in the gravel works at Auschwitz.
A. I believe I have been misunderstood. I said before that in Auschwitz there was a permanent detachment of about thirty to fifty men which looked after the railroad track between the works and the station, and that detachment of thirty to forty men consisted of inmates.
I said that before.
Q. And these were prisoners, were they, Witness?
A. Yes.
Q. And then it is correct to say that DEST did employ prisoners in the gravel works at Auschwitz, didn't they, Witness?
A. The inmates worked on the railroad track, yes.
Q. Are you prepared to tell this Tribunal that those inmates from Auschwitz were not used, Witness?
A. Not actually in the gravel dredging work or operation. No inmates were used there as far as I know.
Q. Witness, let's confine ourselves to the inmates you now admit were used on the railroad track, or wherever else, were they Jews or weren't they?
A. Yes.
Q. And your testimony earlier that you did not know any place were Jews were used in the operation of the DEST enterprises was not correct, was it, Witness?
A. May I ask you to repeat that question. I am afraid I haven't understood it.
Q. We will just pass that.... I said your testimony earlier that you did not know of any Jewish inmates being used by the DEST enterprise was not correct, was it, Witness?
A. Why, I didn't mean by that the thirty or forty men were Jews.
Q. Were these thirty or forty inmates used on the railroad tracks at Auschwitz Jews or not Jews?
A. I don't know. I didn't see them personally, and we received no reports about them. When the monthly reports reached us, all it said was how many people were employed, differentiating civilians from inmates.
To what category or religion they belonged these reports did not say.
Q. You don't know about any inmates having been killed in connection with the gravel operation in Auschwitz?
A. No, I don't know about that.
Q. Who was the DEST works manager in the Auschwitz gravel operation?
A. A man called Rupprecht.
Q. Where did he live?
A. In Auschwitz.
Q. But you never were in Auschwitz?
A. Yes, I went there twice or three time, which I said before.
Q. Not in the camp itself?
A. No, not in the camp. I only went to the offices of DEST and saw Rupprecht who was then manager.
Q. Did Rupprecht live in the camp itself?
A. No, he had a house, a private house where he had taken an apartment, and there he lived with a family. Rupprecht, incidentally, was a civilian engineer by profession.
Q. You testified you never did go to the gravel operation at Treblinka?
A. I did not say that. I said that the actual gravel dregging operation I saw when I visited there.
Q. You have actually been to Treblinka, is that correct?
A. No, no, I was in Auschwitz.
Q. And you have never been to Treblinka?
A. No.
Q. Do you know anything about the operation there?
A. No, I know nothing about that. From the monthly reports which came in now and then, it became clear that the operation had to be discontinued there because, as I described before, water conditions were such as to make the continuance of the operation impossible.
Q. And when was it discontinued?
A. In '33 or '34 -- I think it must have been '34.
Q. Do you know whether there was a camp in Treblinka?
A. I don't know.
Q. You don't know that at Globocnik the higher SS and police leader had a number of camps under his control in the area of Lublin, one of which was Treblinka?
A. All that I know is that the defendant Mummenthey once told me that there were in the government general certain camps which were not under the WVHA. What sort of camps they were, I don't know. The inmates were supposed to be there who were not under the concentration camp system under the WVHA. Whom they were under, I don't know.
Q. Mummenthey didn't tell you they were Jewish extermination camps, did he, witness?
A. No, he didn't tell me that.
Q. You knew that Osti was operating in the same area, didn't you, witness?
A. The Osti? What do you mean "Osti"?
Q. You never heard of the Osti Industry, is that right?
A. No, I know nothing about that at all. I heard of that once in connection -- I don't know whether it was a firm or a group of firms, and I don't know to this day.
Q. And you don't know that the Osti also folded up at the end of 1943 just like the Treblinka gravel works did, do you, witness?
A. I told you I know nothing about Osti. I heard the name Osti in a conference, but what it was, what sort of an institution, or whether it was a firm, I don't know to this day.
Q. I suppose you don't know that the real reason that Treblinka gravel pit folded up was because they murdered all the Jews that were operating it? Do you know that, witness?
A. I don't know that at all.
Q. Now, you said that you made inspections of all the DEST granit quarries twice a year, is that right?
A. Yes, twice or three times a year. Either I went to the plants in order to have commercial conferences or else one of the employees of the plant came to Berlin to have conferences. We changed around.
Q. How long did you stay in the camps when you made these inspection trips?
A. When I went to Flossenbuerg or to any other of the granit works, I used to take the night express train to Berlin and arrived in the morning at Weiden, Linz, or Stregau, and on the same day I went to the plant, conferred with the works manager about my duties; and in almost all cases, I went back the same evening by train. I can remember that in Flossenbuerg throughout the time of my activities, I stayed the night once or twice, and that can be proved because I stayed in the old inn in the town of Floss.
Q. You never did stay in the concentration camp itself?
A. No, never. When I went to Flossenbuerg or St. Georgen, I had to report to the camp commandant which was my duty as a subordinate because after all I was a Hauptsturmfuehrer, and it was my duty, so to speak, to say good morning to him. Any official matters I did not have to discuss with him because he was not competent to discuss anything connected with the enterprises. I have never entered a camp.
Q. Well, now, your last sentence leaves me in a state of confusion. Did you actually go inside the camp, or didn't you?
A. No.
Q. Well, did the camp commandant come out and meet you at the gate when you paid your respects?
A. Either we met in the plant, or I looked him up in his office. The office itself is not part of the camp, that is part of the commandant's office area. This is where the offices and the SS dwellings are located. Either he welcomed me downstairs in the plant, or I looked him up at his office upstairs.
Q. And your testimony to the Tribunal is that you have never been actually inside a concentration camp, is that right, except for your sejourn down to Dachau?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, then, you never did inspect the living quarters of the inmates who were working in the DEST enterprises, did you?
A. I never went to any of the living barracks or any of the camps themselves.
Q. So you can't deny what has been testified here that the inmates were frequently sleeping three or four to the same bunk, can you, witness?
A. I can tell you nothing about that because I did not inspect the camps?
Q. And you know nothing whatever about how much heat these people got in their barracks during the winter, do you, witness?
A. I know nothing about that.
Q. Where did these inmates eat, witness, do you know anything about that?
A. The inmates who worked in our enterprises ate in a special hut which was called the dining hut.
Q. Where was the dining hut, witness?
A. On the area of our plants.
Q. That was not inside the camp?
A. No, no, inside our plant.
Q. Is it true that in a number of operations the inmates had to walk back to the camp for the noon meal, witness?
A. Possibly at the beginning of 1938 or '39 that may have been so, but that was discontinued because of the long march. In '38 or the beginning of '39 that may have been so, but from that time onwards, the food was taken over in containers on trucks to the plant where the meals were taken in the dining house.
Q. And did you ever inspect that food they got?
A. I myself didn't. I only described this morning how a works manager in Flossenburg who wanted to inspect the food and actually inspected it, and thereupon got himself into trouble with Herr Kuenzler, the camp commandant of Flossenbuerg, who was later on dismissed.
Q. Well, do you mean you were afraid to inspect the food, is that what you are testifying to?
A. The camp commandant always maintained to inspect the food would amount to interfering with his duties and was none of our business.
Q. You therefore didn't concern yourself at all on these inspection trips with the quality and quantify of food which the inmate workers received, that is correct, is it?
A. I asked the managers what the food was like, and as a matter of principle, I received the information that the inmates were being fed decently and in some cases even adequately. That, of course, there was not so much meat as a normal worker would receive in peace-time. I heard that, too, of course, but the managers kept assuring me that the inmates were being given adequate and tasty food. Also, they received only the noon meal in our plants. The morning and evening meals were taken in the camps, after they had done their work or before they had done their work.
Q. And do you know about what they got for breakfast and dinner?
A. All I know is that when we started an armament project in our plants, the inmates got a special break in the morning of 10 to 20 minutes. They got 200 grams of bread, 50 to 20 grams of margarine, and some sausage.
Q. Well, all you can testify to about the food is that you were told by the plant manager that the inmates in his opinion were fed decently and in some few cases adequately?
A. That is what the works managers have told me, yes.
Q. What about their clothing, did you actually inspect their clothing yourself and satisfy yourself that these people were properly clothed, witness?
A. I saw what they were wearing. In Summer they were in slacks and a coat and a cap; and in Winter, the same clothes plus a winter overcoat from the same material. Gloves, were in some cases not available toward the end, which is the reason why we asked the works managers to manufacture gloves from old material, which they did. Moreover, we also attempted to obtain shes and other items such as rubber boots which was also done.
Q. Well, are you prepared to testify that the clothing was entirely adequate, witness?
A. No, I wouldn't be able to say that. In Summer time it was entirely adequate. During the Autumn, when it became cold, it was no longer adequate in my opinion.
Q. Well, did they have any underwear on?
A. The works managers told us when we mentioned that subject that the inmates only had one or two outfits of underwear, and therefore they were not always able to change in good time.
Q. You didn't notice that the inmates had no socks on, witness?
A. The inmates very frequently were wearing wooden clogs, and therefore the works managers found out that this was bad for the feet, and we had difficulties; therefore, the plants made efforts to obtain a different type of shoes. These wooden clogs which I was talking about, applied to the first part of the war. Before the war, I think everybody was wearing normal leather shoes.
Q But you did notice that most of them were wearing wooden shoes and you did observe that they had a lot of foot trouble, as has been testified to here a number of times by the inmates who wore them? That is right, isn't it, witness?
A Yes, they wore wooden shoes in certain cases in the plants, and Herr Mummenthey told the camp commandants in order to improve this problem in certain cases. This was done, and in certain other cases, because of simply difficulties, the shoes could not be obtained.
Q You didn't quit working the prisoners though because you couldn't get adequate clothing, and you couldn't get proper shoes, and you couldn't get socks, and couldn't get gloves, did you, witness? They kept right on working just as they had before, didn't they, witness?
A When the shoes were not in order they had to go on working temporarily until new shoes could be obtained, of course. Only inmates who were ill were not employed in our enterprises for the reasons which I named before.
Q Now, let's go to this "hours of work." I understand from your testimony that they worked these gravel quarries of the DEST right throughout the year, right through the winter months. Isn't that right?
A The gravel works did not work throughout the year. They worked from December -- they did not work between December and March. It was customary throughout Germany that these gravel pits are seasonal work. During the cold period, work is stopped as the river is frozen, which is one of the reasons that no work is possible. During the winter the various machines and tools were being repaired.
Q But they did work the granite quarries and the brick works right through the whole year, didn't they witness?
A Yes.
Q Would you say it got a little cold and miserable out in the cold in the winter, and it was raining and cold, snowing, freezing?
A Work was only discontinued when there was a fog or when it was too cold, when there was snow above ground, which happened in Flossenburg particularly often because its altitude is 800 meters.
Snow comes early there and, therefore, work had to be discontinued automatically during winter there. Work went on in the workshops because the raw material had been assembled in those workshops for the winter. The workshops themselves were all heated.
Q Witness, let's look at this memorandum from the defendant Pohl concerning the working conditions in the concentration camps. It is Document R-129, Prosecution Exhibit 40. It is on page 68 of Document Book No. 2. You testified that the hours of work were from eight to nine hours, is that right, witness?
A I testified nine to ten hours.
Q Nine to ten hours?
A Nine to ten hours, depending on the climate, the time of the year, plus a break for lunch. We also had periods during winter when work was done only four or five hours.
Q Well, now, do you take out the lunch period from this nine-hour day, we shall say. They got thirty minutes for lunch, and does that mean they worked eight and a half hours -- or did they still work nine hours, actual work?
A They worked nine hours, nine hours plus one hour for lunch, which adds up to ten hours. That was the maximum period.
Q How long did it usually take them to get from the concentration camp out to their place of work? How long did that take them, witness?
A In Flossenburg they had to march for four or five hundred meters -- six hundred meters; in Gross-Rosen about eight hundred meters; and Mauthausen and the Gusen plants about five hundred meters; in Mauthausen Betrieb Wienergraben, about four to six hundred meters; in Natzweiler, I don't know.
Q You never heard of any camp where it took them as long as thirty minutes to get from the camp to their place of work?
A That happened only in Oranienburg at the beginning when the so called "small camp" had not yet existed.
At that time the inmates had to march from the camp to the plant, but that was discontinued later on the advice of defendant Mummenthey, and the so-called "small camp" was built in Oranienburg in order not to have them to march to work.
Q Now, witness, in this document, which I have handed to you, do you find paragraph four there, where Pohl instructs camp commanders that this employment must be - in the true meaning of the word "exhaustive" in order to obtain the greatest measure of performance? Do you find that paragraph 4?
A One moment, I want to read it first.
Yes, but you must not interpret the term "exhaustive" like that. What I mean by that is "exhaustive", that it must be done completely, so to speak, but not to exhaust the man until he becomes too tired. Nor works manager nor any of us ever regarded it that way. We were interested in people who were capable of doing some work not people who were incapable of work.
Q What is that interpretation you gave to "exhaustive?" I didn't quite understand that, witness.
A The term "exhaustive" I don't regard as meaning that it means a man has to work until the point of exhaustion. It should be carried out "completely". I suppose you understand what I mean by that. I don't mean up to the point of exhaustion. I must not be meant and taken literally.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is about exhausted with this distinction, Mr. McHaney. We have had it many times; we have arrived at our own conclusion as to what was meant.
MR. MC HANEY: Very well, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: We are at the point of exhaustion.
BY MR. MC HANEY:
Q Now, witness, in your inspection trips did you get any informa tion about the incidence of sickness among the inmates?
A Yes, I heard about that. In 1942 and 1943 -- especially in Mauthausen, and also in Gross Rosen, as far as I remember -- there was an epidemic. One case was dysentry and another occasion typhoid. Thereupon the camp was blocked at once and workers were not allowed to leave the camp for their work. The plant, therefore, had to be shut down for some time; and during that period of time no work was done at all, or at least only with the civilian workers who were still available.
Q And you reported back on these matters what you observed in connection with sickness to Mummenthey, didn't you?
A These reports reached us in writing by the Works managers so that we would be informed that the plant was doing no work during that period of time.
Q Didn't you receive periodic reports from the plant managers on sickness, deaths, turnover among the inmates?
A During the period of time of these diseases no work was done, and after this, of course, it was handled so that a large number of inmates who had gone out to work could no longer turn out. Therefore, the works managers complained to us; the plants could no longer be operated which was explained by the illness or the epidemic which had broken out.
QQuite aside from those incidents, witness, didn't W-I receive monthly reports from each plant manager concerning labor statistics: how many men were working, how many inmates, how many had gotten sick, how many had died, what the turnover among the inmates employees had been?
A No, we only received reports about those who actually went to work. Sometimes the works managers would also report that such-andsuch a number of inmates did not turn up at work because they were still ill. Fatalities and other matters we were not given either in writing or any other way.
Q. You weren't interested in these labor statistics; they didn't affect the operation of the DEST plant, is that right?
A We could not go on with our work when the workers were not available. The plant could not operate during that period.
Q I don't think you testified this morning as to whether or not foreign inmates -- that is, inmates from occupied countries were used in the DEST industries. You did have such foreign inmates, didn't you, witness?
A From the way they talked, you could say that there were not only Germans working in the camps.
Q Did Mummenthey ever go with you on any of these inspection trips?
A He and I once went together to Flossenburg; otherwise he always went by himself because the two of us could not be absent from Berlin at the same time.
Q How often did Mummenthey go on these inspection trips himself?
A That varied. Normally he would go to every plant twice or four times a year. Towards the end he went more frequently, particularly to Flossenburg and St. Goergen.
Q St. Goergen was at Mauthausen, wasn't it?
A Yes, near Linz.
Q Now, these plant managers, weren't they appointed by Mummenthey?
A The plant managers were appointed by Mummenthey.
Q And they were pretty good men, weren't they, witness, in your estimation?
A The plant managers were all experts, technicians, were extremely decent and courteous men who took their duties seriously.
Q And they reported regularly to Mummenthey about the operation of the plant, didn't they, witness?
AAs far as commercial matters were involved, of course; because when I returned from an official trip I had to give my report about the work I had done while I was away.
Q Well, witness, you testified at great length this morning that Mummenthey was a very socially-minded man, and that he went out of his way to be helpful to inmates. Now, where did he get his information about the difficulties the inmates were laboring under upon which to base his actions to help them?
A He received them either when he inspected the plant or when the managers came to Berlin to report, or else in writing.
Q And how often did the managers come to Berlin to report?
AAs a rule, once every three months, but then one of us would always go down to see the plant. Towards the end, the conferences were held more frequently as difficulties increased from month to month, particularly in the supply of material.
Q Do you know that a release of inmates who worked for DEST was considered important should be and was refused?
AAs far as I know with ourselves we released thirty to forty prisoners, by illegal methods. In order to do that we would have had to contact the commandant's office; then Mummenthey and other people endeavored to get those inmates who had worked as skilled workers in the plant, and who were efficient, decent people, released. A great many inmates later on were employed as civilian workers in the DEST enterprises.
Q Witness, I did not ask how many were released. I asked if you did know whether people whose release was justified, were retained by DEST as inmates, because their work was considered important. That their release was blocked by DEST. You knew that, didn't you, witness?
A I am afraid I have not understood your question. Please repeat it.
Q I said, did you not know that inmates who were ready to be released by the RSHA had their releases blocked by DEST because they were working for the DEST?
A I know nothing about that.
Q You testified about the nice conditions in the quarries.
A Yes.
Q Did they have covered places for the stone masons to work?
A The stone masons worked in the open air in the summertime, which is quite usual in that profession, and in the Autumn and Winter they worked in very up to date workshops in which there were heaters. In the summertime they were working in the open air, as it would have been too hot in a workshop.
Q In Document NO-1049, Prosecution's Exhibit No. 436, on page 46, in Book XVI, in a report by Mummenthey, in June 1942, he said in Flossenburg, and in the quarry of Brucksbuehl a covered working place for the stone masons, and a wooden barracks for a crane was erected.
Apparently in 1942 they were just getting around to erecting a covered working place for the stone masons. Do you know anything about that?
AAll workers in the Autumn and Winter when it was bad weather were working in workshops, no matter whether they were civilians or inmates.
Q Do you know anything about when they first erected the shed at Flossenburg for stone masons in 1942?
A The workshops were erected at the beginning of, or as early as 1939.
Q What do you know about the death rate among the inmates in the DEST Industries, and, particularly in the quarries? What percentage per month was it, do you know?
A I am afraid I can not make any statement about that, nor did we receive any report about that.
Q You did not inquire about that?
A No, I did not.
Q Well, you can not testify then that people were not killed, and did not die from exhaustion in the camps, if you did not receive any reports about it, can you, witness?
A We did not receive reports on that situation you named just now.
Q You said that there were pretty bad relations between the plant manager, and the camp commander. In connection with Flossenburg you mentioned that Mummenthey had a camp commander removed, is that right?
A He did not remove him himself. He merely reported it to Pohl, and suggested to Pohl that the man should be dismissed. Shortly after making that suggestion Kuenstler was removed from his office.
Q That indicates that Mummenthey had pretty considerable influence, doesn't it, witness?
A Yes, he wanted to obtain by that the relations between the plant works in Flossenburg and the camp management should improve.
Q You said something about the payment to skilled and unskilled labor, that is inmates?
A Yes.
Q You said that money was sent to the camp management. You don't mean to testify that the inmates got the money, do you, witness?
A No, they did not receive the money themselves. These four marks for unskilled, and six marks for skilled workers was paid right by the plant to the camp management, whereas, the inmate himself received bonuses, with which he could get in the camp by himself food, cigarettes and other articles of that sort.
Q I did not understand your connection with the Slate Oil Company. You were in 1944 manager of the Slate Oil Company?
A No, it was like this. Pohl asked me temporarily to act as a dummy, and become the manager as such. I managed the firm for about three months, or, at least, was listed on the commercial register as such, although I never did any work there and somebody after that took over for me, a man by the name of Frank, who was killed in a motor car accident, later, and, then as far as I know, Staff-W continued to direct that plant. What became of this Slate Oil business, I am not able to tell you, unfortunately, because I know nothing about it.
Q How long did you remain manager on the commercial register, do you know?
A Eight weeks, perhaps, or perhaps three months. Then I was struck off. I think that Dr. Volk of Staff-W can tell you more about that, or Dr. Hoffmann.
Q They know very little more about it than you do, witness. Did Staff W-I or Mummenthey have any connection to Slate Oil Company?
A No, he did not.
Q You know nothing about the conditions there?
A I know nothing about the conditions in Slate Oil Company G.m.b.H. because I did not do any work for that company. I did not receive any salary, nor did I do any work. As I said this morning, Pohl and I went to Schoemberg together once.
Q When did the DEST enter into the manufacturing of war material?
A In the granite works of Flossenburg in the Spring of 1943. In the granite plant work at St. Georgen in the Summer of 1943.
Q Now did you also inspect those operations?
A Yes, I did.
Q And they were controlled by W-I, and Mummenthey, just as were the quarries and brick works?
A I did not understand the question.
Q I say, those munition manufacturing operations were controlled by Mummenthey and W-I, just as were the quarries and the brick works?
A These were not producing munitions, but spare parts for aircrafts. They were, of course, controlled just as the quarries were.
Q Did the DAW have any connection with those armament operations?
A No, not so far as we were concerned.
Q You mentioned something the other day about the low insurance premiums paid by DEST, because of the lack of any accidents in the quarries.
A Yes.
Q You are not suggesting to the Tribunal that the inmates were insured, are you witness?
A No, no the inmates were not insured; the plant was insured and only the civilian workers were subject to accident insurances.
Q Doesn't that perhaps explain why the premiums were so low, because you had very few people insured, all who worked indoors were civilian workers?
A No, the reason was a different one, because our equipment was very much up to date, the security in the enterprises was extremely good.