The Control Council Law gives fact cases which can be regarded as jus strictum only insofar as they are in conformity with fact cases of the national German penal code. It would be contrary to logic as well as to the generally accepted principles of modern penal law if one were to assume for oneself the right of defining the existence of, say, an "inhumane act", because an "inhumane act" is a word for a moral quality or lack of quality, and not an objective case founded on facts. Furthermore it would again be contrary to ethics and generally accepted legal principles appertaining to criminal law, if today one were to find somebody guilty in retrospect, because he has violated a law which at the time of the perpetration of the act was not even in existence, not to speak of being punishable. On the contrary, perhaps the act which today is unlawful and punishable was at that time explicitly ordered by the state.
5) At this time I must also discuss the question of the legitimate order by a superior.
Already from the Roman law to the modern law of today of all civilized countries, a legitimate order by a superior exempts the perpetrator from guilt. He whose will is bound by a valid order is not legally responsible in the eyes of criminal law, because the will of the one who gives the order supersedes the will of the obeying. If the order is unlawful and criminal and appears so to the obeying party, but only then, responsibility in the eyes of criminal law of the obeying party can be considered. Otherwise as a matter of fairness and humanity the duty of a soldier to obey must be respected. The defendant Hermann Pook, too, was a soldier and was subject to the provisions of the German Military Criminal Code. Of course, one should not and must not attempt to justify every war crime by the fact that it was ordered from above, but on the other hand one cannot disregard the fact that as a general rule the soldier is entirely wrapped up in the army mentality and that with the increasing war hardships the confusion of the soldier also increases and his ability of moral criticism decreases. This is the reasoning of an ancient author.
When the Control Council Law No. 10 prescribes: "The fact that a person acts under orders of his government or his superior does not absolve him of the responsibility for a crime; it can, however, be regarded as a mitigating circumstance," it is thereby unquestionably not intended that the subordinate is automatically responsible in the eyes of criminal law; this would be contrary to all legal principles. Obviously only the burden of proof is thereby put on the subordinate; it is up to him to prove to what extent he is not responsible; for instance, that he was unable to recognize the order as unlawful and criminal. If he cannot exonerate himself in accordance with general principles of law, the order by a superior can still be considered as mitigating circumstance.
The defendant Hermann Pook was drafted into the Waffen-SS in 1940 and was transferred toward the end of 1942 to the office D III as Leading Dental Surgeon. In both cases, therefore, he obeyed military orders. The defendant belonged to the Reiter-SS which was explicitly absolved from criminal guilt by the International Military Tribunal in its verdict. He can only be sentenced if his guilt can be proved in actual and legal respect. It will not be possible for the Tribunal to base a sentence on an assumption, much less on a fiction of criminal culpability.
THE PRESIDENT: This concludes the opening statements of defense counsel. The Tribunal will begin to hear testimony tomorrow morning at 9:30 on behalf of the defendants. Have you arranged among yourselves the order in which the proof will be submitted?
DR. SEIDL: May it please the Court, we suggest that the interrogation of the defendants should be done in the same order as they are named in the indictment. We would like to reserve the possibility that one or the other of the defendants may express the wish during the proceedings to exchange places with another defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Any arrangement that you wish to make is satisfactory to the Court. You can suit your own convenience and make your own plan in any way that you like.
We'll be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon at 1530 hours, 15 May 1947, the Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 16 May 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, 16 May 1947, 0940-1630 hours, Justice Toms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Military Tribunal 2 is now in session.
God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for defendant Oswald Pohl): May it please the Tribunal, as I said at the end of my opening statement, the center of the defense of Oswald Pohl will be his own testimony on the witness stand. I should, therefore, like to ask the Tribunal to call the defendant Oswald Pohl to the witness stand so that he can testify in his own behalf.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
MR. ROBBINS: During the pause I would like to clarify my understanding as to the order in which the defendants will present their case. As I understand it from Dr. Seidl, it will be according to the order in which they are seated in the dock, rather than the way in which they are listed in the Indictment. Is that correct?
DR. SEIDL: If Your Honors please, after the session yesterday, we talked about the order in which we wished to hear the cases of the various defendants. I failed to remember yesterday that the order in which the defendants are sitting in the dock differs in some cases from the order in the Indictment. I should like to state, therefore, that the Defense Counsel wish to hear the cases of the defendants in the same order as they are seated in the dock.
THE PRESIDENT: That is very satisfactory.
OSWALD POHL; defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Your name is Oswald Pohl?
A. Yes.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. 13 May 1896 in Duisburg, Rhineland.
Q. Please describe briefly your origin and give the Court a description of your career up to your entry into the navy.
A. My parents came from Lower Silesia. My ancestors can be traced back to 1680. They are a mixed crowd, and some of them are citizens; others are farmers, craftsmen, and all kinds of professions. Both parents were orphaned when they were young. My father therefore migrated from the village where he was a locksmith at an early date. He came to the country between the Rhine and the Ruhr. There he was followed by a girl friend. They had ten children, and I am the fifth.
When, shortly after the First World War, my father died, he had through his industry and efficiency, become a leading craftsman in August-Thyssen-Huette at Hamborn on the Rhine. Shortly before that, my mother had died.
My parents were extremely happily married. We children never heard one evil word between them, and to this day, my youth at home, where I lived up to my 20th year, is a very happy memory-- peace, joy and happiness.
I myself attended, from my sixth to twelfth year, the secondary school of my native town, and from my twelfth to twentieth year, I went to the primary school, which I left Easter, 1912, having graduated in order to enter the navy.
Q. What were your reasons for choosing the career of naval disbursing officer?
A. The reason why I chose that career was the emptiness of my father's purse. I would have liked to study science, but we did not have the means. When I looked around for a suitable career, I happened to come across the fleet calendar, and there I saw the prospect of a career in the Imperial Navy.
I volunteered, without ever having seen a warship or any other ship. I was accepted, and in 1912 I was a naval recruit in Wilhelmshaven.
Q. Tell us briefly of the career which you had in the navy.
A. After I joined, Easter 1912, I took the prescribed training, which lasted four and a half years. In the summer of 1917 I passed the main examination at Kiel and half a year later I was promoted to naval lieutenant and became a navy disbursing officer.
When the First World War ended, I was a disbursing officer in the Flandern Division. When I returned and when the Imperial Navy was dissolved, I first of all -- sometimes on leave, sometimes on duty -studied for one year in Kiel, because I believed that I should choose a new career, but in the beginning of 1920 I was assigned to the new Navy and discontinued my studies. I was then given the order to join the Third Naval Brigade, Loewenfeld, and with Loewenfeld I went to Upper Silesia and to the Ruhr area. When I returned I was aboard torpedo ships at irregular intervals.
In 1925 I was promoted to Naval Chief Disbursing Officer and First Lieutenant at Sea. In 1934 when I left the navy, I was a Naval Staff Disbursing Officer with the rank of a captain.
Q. When did you for the first time contact the National Socialist Movement, and what were your reasons for doing so?
A. This was in the summer of 1923. For five years the German people had been suffering under the chains of the Versailles Treaty. The inflation had reached its climax. Such property as still existed melted away and disappeared. Unemployment, which at that time had not yet reached the frightful figure of seven to eight million people, however cast its dark shadow over everything.
A few months previously, my homeland, the Ruhr area, under a definite violation of the so-called peace -- the dictate of Versailles-had been occupied by the French, and at Easter German workers were shot at by the French occupying forces in Essen before the factory gates.
My chief at the time invited me to accompany him to a meeting which had been advertised in the newspapers. This organization was called the League for the German Right. I said that I would go. In the evening both of us were near the harbor in a deserted street outside an inn which we were not allowed to enter in uniform. In the backroom we met 20 to 30 men. They were workers. You could see from their clothes and their emaciated faces that there were some proletarians among them.
One of them made a speech. At the end of that speech he asked for a discussion. I went up to the speaker's pulpit. Why I spoke and what I said, I do not know. Anyway, I found applause, and I was asked to join the League. These were the same people among whom I had spent my youth, with whom during the last three years at school I had to spend the holidays as a factory worker. I went out to work with them in the morning at six o'clock. I had my meals with them, and I went home at six with them, in order to give private lessons from seven to nine and save the money to finance my career. My heart indeed, would have had to be of stone instead of blood if these people had not fascinated me. That is how I joined this national movement, and through that movement I eventually joined the National Socialist Movement.
Q. When did you become a member of the NSDAP, and what were your reasons, as an active official of the navy, to join a political party?
A. I joined the NSDAP in August of 1926. The reasons I have described before. They were not connected with my professional interests; neither were they connected with my social interests. They were human motives which were based on my attitude toward the social question.
Q. In 1929 you also joined the SA, did you not? What were your reasons for that step?
A. In 1929 I had been ordered to Swinemuende. The whole group of the Party there to which I belonged consisted of about 30 men.
The SA was not at that time - did not have the same strength, just previous to the seizure of power, as immediately following it. The SA did not exist in that form at all at that time. In 1929 we therefore understood the SA to mean those people who had sufficient courage to wear the brown shirt and to be in the front ranks.
Q. In the affidavit which you gave and signed on 17 March 1947, which has been used by the Prosecution as Exhibit No. 3, you said, among other things, that in 1924 in Kiel you were appointed a candidate for the municipal elections in Kiel. What were your reasons at that time for doing active political work in public life?
A The so-called League for German Right did not take part in the elections. The so-called National Movements joined in a so-called National Socialist bloc, and it was under the leadership of the former Admiral Rosenberg at Kiel, who knew me because I served under him during the war, and he knew that I followed those ideas. He asked me to have my name placed on the candidate list -- which I did.
Q Before the National Socialist party came into power in 1933 you were already a leader of a local group of the NSDAP and you were active in the SA. What were your reasons as an active disbursing officer of the navy to work actively in political life?
A These were the same reasons which I described before. During my political activities I did not take any consideration for my professional activities. The human element was much too strong.
Q In 1934 you were a disbursing officer in the German navy. In that year, however, you left the navy and joined the SS. What were your reasons for giving up your career in the navy and devoting yourself to administrative affairs in the SS?
AAfter the First World War -- in 1920 and 1921 -- the organization of the new German navy was based on strong reformist movements in the field of naval administration. At that time I took part in this work. This work consisted of, and aimed at, the reorganization of the whole administration; to give it new life, which was based on experiences which had been gained during the war. Things should be brought up-todate, we felt. This work at that time could not lead to any success because here again in this very small circle -- just as in the whole of the German nation -- everybody just pursued his own interests; everybody fought everybody else, and thus no success seemed possible. When, therefore, in January, 1934, Himmler -- after having asked me since May 1933 to join the Reich leadership -- pointed out that he, by order or Hitler, and within the framework of the SS, wished to form units based on the army model -- they were called special service troops and they followed the example of the army, even in administrative matters -
and that if I should accept he would give me something to do in the building up of this administration; that in fact he would give me a completely free hand. I saw a wonderful opportunity to carry out the ideas which were already expressed in the reformist tendencies which I described before. They were my own ideas. I accepted the offer.
Q On the first of February, 1934, you therefore took over the so-called Administrative Office - SS as the chief, which was an office within the SS-Main Office. Who was your superior at that time? What were your tasks within the SS-Main Office?
A My superior, as the head of the SS-Main Office, was at that time Gruppenfuehrer Seidl-Dittmarsch who, a few weeks after I joined the Office, died, and was replaced by Gruppenfuehrer Ditsche. The administrative office which I had under me was an office within the SS-Main Office. Its tasks at that time were restricted to the field of administration within the General-SS; its center was the FM-Administration. That is, administration of the money of the members who supported the SS with funds. Other tasks were to develop an administrative organization; that is to say, to build up administrative agencies for everything which concerned the units of the General-SS, and to train administrative personnel. These were the main tasks.
Q Now, as the head of the administrative office of the SS, how did your activity develop up to April 1939, and what ranks did you hold during that period within the SS?
AAs early as 1934, when I joined this organization, the first political units were formed. These were men in uniform who were stationed in barracks who came from the General-SS and whose sole task really was to take over guard duties at the various political party agencies in Munich. In 1935, roughly, the first units of the SS Special Troops, who were the predecessors of the Waffen-SS were established. Just after the seizure of power the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler was formed. But this unit, from the point of view of administration and organization, went its own way for years. The first units of the Special Troops was the Standarte Deutschland (Germany), Germania and, I believe, Reich.
Apart from that there were a pioneer unit and a communications unit. That, roughly, was the development up to 1939. I, myself, in the autumn of 1934, was promoted to Oberfuehrer; three years later, in 1937, I became a Brigadefuehrer; and in April 1939 I became Gruppenfuehrer.
Q In April of 1939, as far as we know so far, the administrative office SS was renamed Office for Budget and Building & Administrative Office-SS. Did you remain chief of those two offices, and did this reorganization result in any changes within your tasks?
A No. I should make a small correction, first of all. During my own interrogation I made a mistake and only when I studied the documents did I really form a clear picture. There was never an independent office Budget and Building, but, as early as 1939, the former Administrative Office-SS was raised to the status of a Main Office. It was called Main Office Budget and Building, and Main Office Administration and Economy. And in the Main Office Budget and Building there were the several offices or Aemter: Budget and Building, and so on. Now, as far as I was concerned, nothing really changed within the sphere of my tasks except for the fact that the work increased somewhat. But that is a purely administrative matter.
Q In 1939 you were appointed Ministerial Director. What brought about this appointment? And what were your tasks within that agency?
A When I was appointed a Ministerial Director it was only an emergency solution, really. As I described before, up to that year the special units had grown into a considerable fighting force, but the money which the Reich put at their disposal was not very considerable. And there was nobody who, on the basis of being a civil servant, would have been in a position to dispose over the Reich funds. Somebody, therefore, had to be given authority because, as a Gruppenfuehrer, I was only in the pay of the party and not in the pay of the Reich. But, as on the other hand, in the special units of the SS there was no position which would have been equivalent to my rank, the emergency solution was resorted to, and I was appointed Ministerial Director.
The result was that from then on I could obtain authority from the Reich on the strength of which, within my activities for these special units, I had the authority of the Reich and could act on it.
Up to that time, as far as they were not funds coming from the regular budget, I had to obtain the authority from case to case from the Reich Minister of Finance or the Reich Minister of the Interior.
Q Now, in 1940, according to your description so far, both offices were made Main offices. What were the reasons for that? Why were they raised within the organization of the SS, and did that bring about any changes within your own sphere of work?
A The reason why the names were changed was brought about by practical reasons. The fact that one and the same thing was called two different names led to constant misunderstandings in other offices. People outside did not see why there should be any differences or different names. Therefore, there was constant confusion.
So, therefore, what was done was to get rid of these double names and replace them by the collective name of SS-- Wirtschafts and Verwaltungshauptamt, WVHA. That was done also for the reason that the Reich tasks had meanwhile strongly outnumbered the Party tasks.
Q. The Prosecution has submitted the plan of those two organizations. Do you know Document, NO-126? Does that plan correctly represent the two organizations?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. It is rather striking, on this plan, that under "Main Office, Budgets and Buildings" there is the word "Reich" in brackets, and under the name "Main Office" there is the word "Party". What is the explanation for this?
A. When the special units were being formed, money came from the Reich to the SS. This was intended mainly for the administration of the SS, as it says on the chart. Now, of course, the Reich wished to have a clear separation within those funds which it put at their disposal; the Reich wanted to have the Reich fund and the Party fund clearly separated. For that reason, this division into two parts was carried out, and therefore we have "Reich" on the one hand and "Party" on the other. The Main Office Budget and Buildings received Reich funds; the Main Office Administration and Economy received Party funds. However, they were both housed in the same building and were both under my direction.
Q. On the 1st of February, 1942, the two main offices-Administration and Economy, and Budget and Buildings -- were united in a single main office and were renamed SS Administrative Main Office, WVHA. What were the reasons for this re-organization, and did this bring about any change in your sphere of work?
A. As I said before as to what were the reasons, it was not a reorganization, really, it was really a renaming. The firm, so to speak, was renamed for practical reasons because all the other names led to constant misunderstandings with agencies in the Reich. For that reason, as I emphasized before -- as in the Main Office there were only, or almost only, Reich Funds, and the General SS had become very small and insignificant --we renamed it the WVHA for these practical reasons.
Q. Now, where was this WVHA located?
A. It was located in Berlin, Lichtenfelde, Unter den Eichen.
Q. How many people worked in the WVHA, of which you were the chief?
A. When it was renamed in March of 1942, there were about 1,500 or 1,700 employees, of whom about 1,500, worked in the building, and that figure was maintained up to the end of 1943. Then, because of the fact that we had to send all of our men to the front, and at the end of 1944 and the beginning of 1945 there were about 600 men working there.
Q. The work of the General SS decreased considerably during the war. What were the functions to which the WVHA limited itself at the end? What agencies within the WVHA did the work after the outbreak of the war? Where was that agency, and how big was it?
A. As a result of the strong decrease in number of the General SS during the war the administrative tasks for the General SS, of course, also decreased. Later on they became so insignificant that they could be looked after from a small office in Munich, where about 15 or 20 men worked. The tasks of that agency were confined to the carrying out of the disbursing of the few people who worked fulltime for the General SS, maintenance of various property matters, and, above all, the reorganization of a new payroll which of all things the Party considered necessary at the time. Then, there were various social welfare tasks connected with it.
Q. When war broke out, the tasks which the WVHA had to perform for the Waffen SS became bigger, and the WVHA became the administrative center of the Waffen SS and General SS. Is it correct that the WVHA, or you yourself, as its chief, on the basis of a written authority of the Reich Minister of Finance,acted in the matters of the Waffen SS? And, as far as the General SS was concerned, did you act because the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP had appointed you Paymaster for the Party?
A. Yes, that is correct. At first I was given a Reich authority. At the beginning it concerned 100,000 Marks, and later on it was increased to one million, and later on still more. The Party was not very generous. As far as the Party was concerned, I was entrusted only with ten thousand marks.
Q. What other agency of the German Wehrmacht could be compared with the WVHA as it was organized on 1 February 1942?
A. One could compare it with the Army Administrative Office. What that office was for the Army, the WVHA was for the Waffen-SS.
Q. Is it correct to say that the Army Administrative Office within the OKW also was in charge of economic enterprises, which were far more extensive than those of the WVHA?
A. Yes, that is correct. Within the Army Administrative Office also there were large economic enterprises, which I do not know in detail. However, I know a few names, for instance, Montan, A.G. which in itself was an enterprise where hundreds of millions were invested. I believe they had a bank of their own, but I am not quite sure of all the details.
Q. Who invented the name "WVHA", and what was aimed at with that name? What was the idea of that name?
A. The name "WVHA" was coined by Himmler. Himmler had ideas of his own here, and in some instances they revealed reformist tendencies, which he also had in various other fields. It was his desire to have, as an administrative official, a passive civil servant type of man who, so to speak, sat on the purse which he had to administer and who would issue funds from that purse according to a plan. Himmler's idea was that even where the financial policy was concerned, the administrative official should try to economize just like a good housewife should do the best for the troops, should not simply follow various contracts and take the easy way, but he should administer the money cheaply, intelligently, and take as much advantage from the funds as possible.
That is the explanation why, later on, when these officials were introduced into the WVHA, he did not give them the name which the Army would give these officials; he simply called them "economists", and the name was to remind the official that he had to economize. From that idea the name "WVHA", "Economic Office", was coined. But even that was not considered the final name. Later on, perhaps, it would simply have been called "Economic Main Office" without any administrative tasks.
Q. Witness, just now you mentioned SS administrative officials. The Prosecution has submitted a document which refers to this subject. I should like to ask you now: What were the functions of these SS administrative officials, and were they under the WVHA? What were Himmler's reasons for appointing these officials with that special title?
A. SS administrative officials existed only in occupied territories, whereas in the Reich area the same activities were carried out by the heads of the administrative offices, who were members of the highest circle, the same area which covered by the Wehrkreise, the Army Districts. But in the war, as I said before, the activities of the General SS had decreased very considerably, and therefore the significance of the administrative offices also had decreased. Nothing was changed there, but this reform was carried out only with the central administrative offices in occupied territories where, in contrast to the Reich agencies, there was much more work to do. That is why the administrative officials in occupied territories were called economists.
These economists therefore were the same thing and had the same tasks which were carried out by what the Army called "Intendant" under the General of an army district. One could say it is the same picture, really, as far as the original organization was concerned. The economist was under the Higher Police and SS Leader. He was under him in a disciplinary sense. He was committed by his superior orders, but his subordination to the WVHA was limited, as in all other administrative agencies in the Reich and in the occupied territories, to accepting generally administrative directives and instructions which were published in the Administrative Gazette.
Q. In order to explain the position of the WVHA within the Reich and the SS, it may be necessary to go into the organization of the various offices. The Reichsfuehrer SS was Heinrich Himmler. Since when did you know Heinrich Himmler?
A. I met Himmler personally in May 1933. I might have Been him before, but I met him personally in 1933. At that time he was attached to Hitler's suite when the latter visited the navy at Kiel. I myself at that time was still active within the naval artillery detachment, took part in the banquet, and after the banquet Himmler requested to talk to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 1933? Wasn't it 1923 when he first met Himmler?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I met Himmler for the first time in May, 1933. I joined the national movement in 1923.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said you were still in the navy when you met Himmler.
THE WITNESS: Quite so. I left the navy only in February 1934.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, all right.
THE WITNESS: After this banquet in May, 1933, Himmler requested to see me. He had heard my name and had heard about me when he visited various warships; he knew that I was a member of the Party and asked me if I felt inclined to join the Reich Leadership of the SS. At that time I did not take this too seriously and I said no. We were prevented from talking any further because at that moment the sirens sounded and we had to go back to our ship, and the conversation was discontinued.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Since 1942 the Reich Leadership of the SS was divided into twelve main branches. Were these main branches all housed in the same building, and where was the official office of the Reichsfuehrer SS?
A. The twelve main offices were distributed all over Berlin. Each one of them had its own building, in some cases several buildings. In the war we were even more scattered all over Berlin, The Reichsfuehrer-SS himself and his main office and personal staff were in the building of the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin.
Q. One of the twelve main offices was the personal office of Himmler of the Reichsfuehrer SS. What was the task of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. The Main Office Personal Staff Reichsfuehrer SS originated from the office of the adjutant, and what it did was to process all those things the processing of which Himmler wished to reserve to himself. It was not really what you would otherwise expect to find in such a high military post, that in an agency of this sort the representatives of the various military and administrative branches would meet. That did not happen in Himmler's case. In that office, Personal Staff, there were all the things, Lebensborn, Ahnenerbe, even his hobby Allach, and then the office of economic support, raw material, and many other things. The chief of the office Personal Staff from its foundation up to May 1943, I believe, was Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf.
Q. Another main office was the SS Main Office. What were its functions and who was in charge of it.
A. The SS Main Office, is the oldest office of the Reich Leadership of the SS. Shortly after its foundation the Office for Racial and Settlement Questions was established. The SS Main Office is the basic cell, so to speak, from which all the other offices grew. From the Main Office originated, for instance, as I described the WVHA as the earlier administrative office within the SS Main Office.
Then there was the Fuehrung Leadership Main Office, FHA? which was formerly the Commando Office. Then the Personnel Main Office, which was formerly a personnel office, and a few others. The SS Main Office, therefore, was the actual center for all concerns which were connected with the General SS. In the war, I believe, it occupied itself primarily with questions of recruiting, questions of training the soldiers, social welfare, and matters of that kind which became more and more important as the war went on, and a few other matters of that sort. Its chief at the end was the Obergruppenfuehrer Gottlob Berger.
Q. Now I come to the Office for Race and Settlement. What was the task of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. The Main Office for Race and Settlement actually occupied itself only with marital questions between members of the SS and German women. Each member of the SS, from the simple SS man upwards, when he became engaged or wished to get married, had to show his bride. The whole matter of research into ancestry was examined here. That was the main function of the work of this office. The second part, Settlement was a long-range aim which was never fully carried out. Only very little work was done. This office changed its chief frequently. When I joined first it was Darre, who later on became Minister of Agriculture, and in the end it was Obergruppenfuehrer Richard Hildebrand.
Q. Another main office was the SS Leadership Main Office, the FHA. What were its tasks and who was its chief?
A. The SS Leadership Main Office, the FEA, also originated from the SS Main Office. It was a younger office, so to speak. All questions were dealt with here which concerned the training and equipment of the Waffen-SS. The offices were numerous, the office for medical questions, the schools and training places, which we called Junker schools. Its chief was the Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Juetter.
Q. Now, the most important office, at least as far as this trial is concerned, is the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office. It was established in 1939.
What were its tasks and who was in charge of it at the various times?
A. The Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA, had to fulfill all the tasks which were concerned with secret police, Gestapo matters, criminal police, and of the security service at home and abroad. Up to 1942 it was directed by the well-known Obergruppenfuehrer Reinhard Heydrich. Then for a short time by Himmler himself, and from the beginning of 1943 onward, up to the end, by Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
Q. Now, some part of that Main Office was represented by Office IV, which was also known as the Secret State Police Office, the Gestapo Office. What were the tasks of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. Office IV, as far as I know of its development at all, originated from the Secret State Police Office. It had to deal with all matters concerning the Gestapo, in my sphere, for instance, with all matters connected with the executive agencies of the concentration camps, the questions concerning inmates, as far as their execution was concerned, and it was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller.
Q. Office V was the so-called Reich Criminal Police Office which was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1943 when Admiral Canaris was dismissed, the whole system of military intelligence was united in the RSHA, was it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. No, when these documents frequently refer to the Security Police, does that mean the Secret State Police and the Criminal Police?
A. Yes.
Q. Now to speak of another Main Office, the Main Office Regular Police, who was in charge of that office and what were its tasks?
A. The Main Office Regular Police was directed, up to 1943, by Oberstgruppenfuehrer Daluege, and from that period on until the end of the war by Obergruppenfuehrer Winnenberg. The Main Office Regular Police was concerned with the affairs of the regular police, both the police housed in barracks and those who were not, and also the whole of the administrative police with the various police presidents, and so forth.