Apart from that there were a pioneer unit and a communications unit. That, roughly, was the development up to 1939. I, myself, in the autumn of 1934, was promoted to Oberfuehrer; three years later, in 1937, I became a Brigadefuehrer; and in April 1939 I became Gruppenfuehrer.
Q In April of 1939, as far as we know so far, the administrative office SS was renamed Office for Budget and Building & Administrative Office-SS. Did you remain chief of those two offices, and did this reorganization result in any changes within your tasks?
A No. I should make a small correction, first of all. During my own interrogation I made a mistake and only when I studied the documents did I really form a clear picture. There was never an independent office Budget and Building, but, as early as 1939, the former Administrative Office-SS was raised to the status of a Main Office. It was called Main Office Budget and Building, and Main Office Administration and Economy. And in the Main Office Budget and Building there were the several offices or Aemter: Budget and Building, and so on. Now, as far as I was concerned, nothing really changed within the sphere of my tasks except for the fact that the work increased somewhat. But that is a purely administrative matter.
Q In 1939 you were appointed Ministerial Director. What brought about this appointment? And what were your tasks within that agency?
A When I was appointed a Ministerial Director it was only an emergency solution, really. As I described before, up to that year the special units had grown into a considerable fighting force, but the money which the Reich put at their disposal was not very considerable. And there was nobody who, on the basis of being a civil servant, would have been in a position to dispose over the Reich funds. Somebody, therefore, had to be given authority because, as a Gruppenfuehrer, I was only in the pay of the party and not in the pay of the Reich. But, as on the other hand, in the special units of the SS there was no position which would have been equivalent to my rank, the emergency solution was resorted to, and I was appointed Ministerial Director.
The result was that from then on I could obtain authority from the Reich on the strength of which, within my activities for these special units, I had the authority of the Reich and could act on it.
Up to that time, as far as they were not funds coming from the regular budget, I had to obtain the authority from case to case from the Reich Minister of Finance or the Reich Minister of the Interior.
Q Now, in 1940, according to your description so far, both offices were made Main offices. What were the reasons for that? Why were they raised within the organization of the SS, and did that bring about any changes within your own sphere of work?
A The reason why the names were changed was brought about by practical reasons. The fact that one and the same thing was called two different names led to constant misunderstandings in other offices. People outside did not see why there should be any differences or different names. Therefore, there was constant confusion.
So, therefore, what was done was to get rid of these double names and replace them by the collective name of SS-- Wirtschafts and Verwaltungshauptamt, WVHA. That was done also for the reason that the Reich tasks had meanwhile strongly outnumbered the Party tasks.
Q. The Prosecution has submitted the plan of those two organizations. Do you know Document, NO-126? Does that plan correctly represent the two organizations?
A. Yes, it does.
Q. It is rather striking, on this plan, that under "Main Office, Budgets and Buildings" there is the word "Reich" in brackets, and under the name "Main Office" there is the word "Party". What is the explanation for this?
A. When the special units were being formed, money came from the Reich to the SS. This was intended mainly for the administration of the SS, as it says on the chart. Now, of course, the Reich wished to have a clear separation within those funds which it put at their disposal; the Reich wanted to have the Reich fund and the Party fund clearly separated. For that reason, this division into two parts was carried out, and therefore we have "Reich" on the one hand and "Party" on the other. The Main Office Budget and Buildings received Reich funds; the Main Office Administration and Economy received Party funds. However, they were both housed in the same building and were both under my direction.
Q. On the 1st of February, 1942, the two main offices-Administration and Economy, and Budget and Buildings -- were united in a single main office and were renamed SS Administrative Main Office, WVHA. What were the reasons for this re-organization, and did this bring about any change in your sphere of work?
A. As I said before as to what were the reasons, it was not a reorganization, really, it was really a renaming. The firm, so to speak, was renamed for practical reasons because all the other names led to constant misunderstandings with agencies in the Reich. For that reason, as I emphasized before -- as in the Main Office there were only, or almost only, Reich Funds, and the General SS had become very small and insignificant --we renamed it the WVHA for these practical reasons.
Q. Now, where was this WVHA located?
A. It was located in Berlin, Lichtenfelde, Unter den Eichen.
Q. How many people worked in the WVHA, of which you were the chief?
A. When it was renamed in March of 1942, there were about 1,500 or 1,700 employees, of whom about 1,500, worked in the building, and that figure was maintained up to the end of 1943. Then, because of the fact that we had to send all of our men to the front, and at the end of 1944 and the beginning of 1945 there were about 600 men working there.
Q. The work of the General SS decreased considerably during the war. What were the functions to which the WVHA limited itself at the end? What agencies within the WVHA did the work after the outbreak of the war? Where was that agency, and how big was it?
A. As a result of the strong decrease in number of the General SS during the war the administrative tasks for the General SS, of course, also decreased. Later on they became so insignificant that they could be looked after from a small office in Munich, where about 15 or 20 men worked. The tasks of that agency were confined to the carrying out of the disbursing of the few people who worked fulltime for the General SS, maintenance of various property matters, and, above all, the reorganization of a new payroll which of all things the Party considered necessary at the time. Then, there were various social welfare tasks connected with it.
Q. When war broke out, the tasks which the WVHA had to perform for the Waffen SS became bigger, and the WVHA became the administrative center of the Waffen SS and General SS. Is it correct that the WVHA, or you yourself, as its chief, on the basis of a written authority of the Reich Minister of Finance,acted in the matters of the Waffen SS? And, as far as the General SS was concerned, did you act because the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP had appointed you Paymaster for the Party?
A. Yes, that is correct. At first I was given a Reich authority. At the beginning it concerned 100,000 Marks, and later on it was increased to one million, and later on still more. The Party was not very generous. As far as the Party was concerned, I was entrusted only with ten thousand marks.
Q. What other agency of the German Wehrmacht could be compared with the WVHA as it was organized on 1 February 1942?
A. One could compare it with the Army Administrative Office. What that office was for the Army, the WVHA was for the Waffen-SS.
Q. Is it correct to say that the Army Administrative Office within the OKW also was in charge of economic enterprises, which were far more extensive than those of the WVHA?
A. Yes, that is correct. Within the Army Administrative Office also there were large economic enterprises, which I do not know in detail. However, I know a few names, for instance, Montan, A.G. which in itself was an enterprise where hundreds of millions were invested. I believe they had a bank of their own, but I am not quite sure of all the details.
Q. Who invented the name "WVHA", and what was aimed at with that name? What was the idea of that name?
A. The name "WVHA" was coined by Himmler. Himmler had ideas of his own here, and in some instances they revealed reformist tendencies, which he also had in various other fields. It was his desire to have, as an administrative official, a passive civil servant type of man who, so to speak, sat on the purse which he had to administer and who would issue funds from that purse according to a plan. Himmler's idea was that even where the financial policy was concerned, the administrative official should try to economize just like a good housewife should do the best for the troops, should not simply follow various contracts and take the easy way, but he should administer the money cheaply, intelligently, and take as much advantage from the funds as possible.
That is the explanation why, later on, when these officials were introduced into the WVHA, he did not give them the name which the Army would give these officials; he simply called them "economists", and the name was to remind the official that he had to economize. From that idea the name "WVHA", "Economic Office", was coined. But even that was not considered the final name. Later on, perhaps, it would simply have been called "Economic Main Office" without any administrative tasks.
Q. Witness, just now you mentioned SS administrative officials. The Prosecution has submitted a document which refers to this subject. I should like to ask you now: What were the functions of these SS administrative officials, and were they under the WVHA? What were Himmler's reasons for appointing these officials with that special title?
A. SS administrative officials existed only in occupied territories, whereas in the Reich area the same activities were carried out by the heads of the administrative offices, who were members of the highest circle, the same area which covered by the Wehrkreise, the Army Districts. But in the war, as I said before, the activities of the General SS had decreased very considerably, and therefore the significance of the administrative offices also had decreased. Nothing was changed there, but this reform was carried out only with the central administrative offices in occupied territories where, in contrast to the Reich agencies, there was much more work to do. That is why the administrative officials in occupied territories were called economists.
These economists therefore were the same thing and had the same tasks which were carried out by what the Army called "Intendant" under the General of an army district. One could say it is the same picture, really, as far as the original organization was concerned. The economist was under the Higher Police and SS Leader. He was under him in a disciplinary sense. He was committed by his superior orders, but his subordination to the WVHA was limited, as in all other administrative agencies in the Reich and in the occupied territories, to accepting generally administrative directives and instructions which were published in the Administrative Gazette.
Q. In order to explain the position of the WVHA within the Reich and the SS, it may be necessary to go into the organization of the various offices. The Reichsfuehrer SS was Heinrich Himmler. Since when did you know Heinrich Himmler?
A. I met Himmler personally in May 1933. I might have Been him before, but I met him personally in 1933. At that time he was attached to Hitler's suite when the latter visited the navy at Kiel. I myself at that time was still active within the naval artillery detachment, took part in the banquet, and after the banquet Himmler requested to talk to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say 1933? Wasn't it 1923 when he first met Himmler?
THE WITNESS: No, Your Honor, I met Himmler for the first time in May, 1933. I joined the national movement in 1923.
THE PRESIDENT: I thought you said you were still in the navy when you met Himmler.
THE WITNESS: Quite so. I left the navy only in February 1934.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, all right.
THE WITNESS: After this banquet in May, 1933, Himmler requested to see me. He had heard my name and had heard about me when he visited various warships; he knew that I was a member of the Party and asked me if I felt inclined to join the Reich Leadership of the SS. At that time I did not take this too seriously and I said no. We were prevented from talking any further because at that moment the sirens sounded and we had to go back to our ship, and the conversation was discontinued.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Since 1942 the Reich Leadership of the SS was divided into twelve main branches. Were these main branches all housed in the same building, and where was the official office of the Reichsfuehrer SS?
A. The twelve main offices were distributed all over Berlin. Each one of them had its own building, in some cases several buildings. In the war we were even more scattered all over Berlin, The Reichsfuehrer-SS himself and his main office and personal staff were in the building of the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin.
Q. One of the twelve main offices was the personal office of Himmler of the Reichsfuehrer SS. What was the task of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. The Main Office Personal Staff Reichsfuehrer SS originated from the office of the adjutant, and what it did was to process all those things the processing of which Himmler wished to reserve to himself. It was not really what you would otherwise expect to find in such a high military post, that in an agency of this sort the representatives of the various military and administrative branches would meet. That did not happen in Himmler's case. In that office, Personal Staff, there were all the things, Lebensborn, Ahnenerbe, even his hobby Allach, and then the office of economic support, raw material, and many other things. The chief of the office Personal Staff from its foundation up to May 1943, I believe, was Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf.
Q. Another main office was the SS Main Office. What were its functions and who was in charge of it.
A. The SS Main Office, is the oldest office of the Reich Leadership of the SS. Shortly after its foundation the Office for Racial and Settlement Questions was established. The SS Main Office is the basic cell, so to speak, from which all the other offices grew. From the Main Office originated, for instance, as I described the WVHA as the earlier administrative office within the SS Main Office.
Then there was the Fuehrung Leadership Main Office, FHA? which was formerly the Commando Office. Then the Personnel Main Office, which was formerly a personnel office, and a few others. The SS Main Office, therefore, was the actual center for all concerns which were connected with the General SS. In the war, I believe, it occupied itself primarily with questions of recruiting, questions of training the soldiers, social welfare, and matters of that kind which became more and more important as the war went on, and a few other matters of that sort. Its chief at the end was the Obergruppenfuehrer Gottlob Berger.
Q. Now I come to the Office for Race and Settlement. What was the task of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. The Main Office for Race and Settlement actually occupied itself only with marital questions between members of the SS and German women. Each member of the SS, from the simple SS man upwards, when he became engaged or wished to get married, had to show his bride. The whole matter of research into ancestry was examined here. That was the main function of the work of this office. The second part, Settlement was a long-range aim which was never fully carried out. Only very little work was done. This office changed its chief frequently. When I joined first it was Darre, who later on became Minister of Agriculture, and in the end it was Obergruppenfuehrer Richard Hildebrand.
Q. Another main office was the SS Leadership Main Office, the FHA. What were its tasks and who was its chief?
A. The SS Leadership Main Office, the FEA, also originated from the SS Main Office. It was a younger office, so to speak. All questions were dealt with here which concerned the training and equipment of the Waffen-SS. The offices were numerous, the office for medical questions, the schools and training places, which we called Junker schools. Its chief was the Obergruppenfuehrer Hans Juetter.
Q. Now, the most important office, at least as far as this trial is concerned, is the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office. It was established in 1939.
What were its tasks and who was in charge of it at the various times?
A. The Reich Security Main Office, the RSHA, had to fulfill all the tasks which were concerned with secret police, Gestapo matters, criminal police, and of the security service at home and abroad. Up to 1942 it was directed by the well-known Obergruppenfuehrer Reinhard Heydrich. Then for a short time by Himmler himself, and from the beginning of 1943 onward, up to the end, by Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner.
Q. Now, some part of that Main Office was represented by Office IV, which was also known as the Secret State Police Office, the Gestapo Office. What were the tasks of that office and who was in charge of it?
A. Office IV, as far as I know of its development at all, originated from the Secret State Police Office. It had to deal with all matters concerning the Gestapo, in my sphere, for instance, with all matters connected with the executive agencies of the concentration camps, the questions concerning inmates, as far as their execution was concerned, and it was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller.
Q. Office V was the so-called Reich Criminal Police Office which was directed by Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In 1943 when Admiral Canaris was dismissed, the whole system of military intelligence was united in the RSHA, was it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. No, when these documents frequently refer to the Security Police, does that mean the Secret State Police and the Criminal Police?
A. Yes.
Q. Now to speak of another Main Office, the Main Office Regular Police, who was in charge of that office and what were its tasks?
A. The Main Office Regular Police was directed, up to 1943, by Oberstgruppenfuehrer Daluege, and from that period on until the end of the war by Obergruppenfuehrer Winnenberg. The Main Office Regular Police was concerned with the affairs of the regular police, both the police housed in barracks and those who were not, and also the whole of the administrative police with the various police presidents, and so forth.
Q Another main office was the Personnel Main Office. What were its tasks, who was in charge and what were its connections with the WVHA?
A The Personnel Main Office worked on the personnel data of all administrative officials, no matter in what department they worked. That is to say, all applications for promotions would reach the Personnel Main Office. For many years Obergruppenfuehrer Walter Schmidt was in charge and at the end, from 1944 on, I believe, it was Obergruppenfuehrer Von Herff.
Q Another main office was the Office of SS Justice Administration of Justice. Who was in charge there?
A The main office SS Court, which was in Munich up to the end of the war, was directed for a long time -- I think up to the first years of the war -- by Obergruppenfuehrer Scharfe, and, after his death, up to the time of the collapse, by Obergruppenfuehrer Breithaupt, for all matters concerning legal proceedings of both the SS and Police.
Q Another main office was the Reich Commissioner for German Nationals. What were his tasks?
A The main office, I believe it was called Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of German Nationals. This was to look after German nationals who had returned to the Reich. He was to settle them somewhere. It was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Breifeld.
Q Now I wish to speak of the so-called German Central Agency, the Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle, and it was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Lorenz. What were the tasks of that main office?
A This main office did the preliminary work for the office which I have named just now. It brought Germans back to the Reich and, until they were settled, it looked after them. It was directed by Obergruppenfuehrer Lorenz, as you say.
Q Now the last main office to be mentioned here was the Inspectorate for German National Schools under Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeyer. What was the task of this office? What did it do?
A The Institutions for National Political Education were under the German Reich Ministry of Education and Heissmeyer had a double position within it. In that capacity he was concerned more with the organizational supervision of those institutions. He had to engage school teachers and exercise a certain amount of influence on the training schedules. That is to say, his task complemented those of the Reich Ministry of Education and he took a certain amount of influence on institutions which is the reason for the establishment of a main office.
Q Now, the central agency of concentration camps was the Inspectorate for Concentration Camps. Did the Inspectorate for Concentration Camps have the position of a main office? What were its tasks, and who was in charge of it?
A One could not say that the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps had the position of a main office. As an independent organization it was never equal to the main offices. It was immediately subordinated to Himmler. The task of this Inspectorate was to work on all matters of all the concentration camps in the field of administration, supply, and, in collaboration with the RSHA, to work on executive matters, or matters concerning the executive tasks. Its leader, up to the time he was called to the front, which I believe happened around 1939 or 1940, was Obergruppenfuehrer Eicke. After him, for a short time, was Obergruppenfuehrer Heissmeyer, who became Inspector-General of Concentration Camps, and SS Death Head Units, but he was relieved of his duties and succeeded by the then Brigadefuehrer Gluecks.
Q Was Brigadefuehrer Gluecks during a certain period of time - immediately under the Chief of the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA.
A The Inspectorate of Concentration Camps belonged and was part of -- I think -- from 1940 to 1942 - the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA. For that reason, Gluecks must have been at that time subordinated to the Chief of that main office, the SS-Leadership Main Office, the FHA.
Q Do you believe that Obergruppenfuehrer Huettner, as the Chief of the FHA had any considerable influence on the administration of concentration camps? Was he in that position?
A I do not think he would have been in a position to do so, because he was lacking the expert knowledge.
Q In the documents submitted by the prosecution, the name "Higher SS and Police Leader" occurs frequently. Gas this an original organization? What was the position of the Higher SS and Police Leader, both at home and in the occupied territories?
A The Higher SS and Police Leaders were Himmler's represent atives within their respective areas. In the Reich itself their competence, generally speaking, was the same as the arrangement of an Army district; within that competence the Higher SS and Police Leaders carried out all functions which were part of the competence of Himmler as chief of the German Police and SS. That is to say, they concerned themselves with police matters, general SS affairs, and also, up to a point, with questions of the Waffen SS. The Higher SS and Police Leaders in the occupied territories had the same functions and tasks, but their authority and power was increased because they had to take very strong executive measures in all spheres of life which were directed by Himmler
Q Between the chiefs of the 12 main offices, or, chiefs of the main offices, was there close collaboration between them?
A That sort of collaboration, unfortunately did not exist. As I have already described the Reich Leadership, SS, that is to say, the whole complex of those 12 main offices was not housed in the same building in Berlin as a sort of general staff, but they were scattered all over Berlin and, later on, over the whole of the Reich, Himmler himself was not the man to desire such a collaboration.
Q What was Himmler's attitude to that question, and what was the explanation of that attitude, and what were its results?
A The real reason for this unusual type of organization can only be found in Himmler's character. Himmler felt somehow that if he organized these things too closely formed such groups and these various main offices would be tied together to a close staff, which is the usual, the obvious thing to do in a military organization, that this might be dangerous to himself. His whole method was aimed at preceding the old political law of balance of power and to form a group which might conceivably oppose him one day, the old motto "Divide et impera", "Divide and Rule". He felt uneasy and uncertain. I myself told him, I once proposed to him, because collaboration was not too satisfactory and difficult, to have representatives of the various main offices on his staff together. With a sly smile he declined this and said, "I think we will leave it as it is. Let each one work on his own and no groups can then be formed, and so forth," Of course, that method did not promote collaboration and team work. Throughout the time I worked there, I did not attend one single staff meeting where all the chiefs of the main offices would be gathered at round tables.
He asked each one of us to see him alone. Never did I experience that two men came to see him at the same time. Whenever he met somebody, he asked to see him, talked to him alone, dismissed him, and nobody else knew that this man had called on Himmler. I never saw two chiefs of main offices in Himmler's office at the same time.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take the customary recess.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom take their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, before the recess you explained the manner in which the twelve main offices of the Reichs Government and the Reich Leadership of the SS collaborated, and worked with each other. In this connection I ask you what impression you gained during those years of the character of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler?
A Himmler came from a family of teachers, and, exactly, as leader of the police he represented the customs of this high position to the people. He was clever without being extremely intelligent, that is, without having the extreme intelligence of Heydrich. He was Sull of ideas. The most contrary nature of these ideas was not carried out in personal creatives but naive methods. That gave them the character of a theoretical nature. Again and again during these years he told me of many ideas, which did not quite fit into the fields of tasks. All these things are matters with which he was occupying himself, Lebensborn, Ahnenerbe, the Koenig-Heinrich-Stiftung, ExtrasteinStiftung, all these things were additional tasks which had nothing to do with the police and the military organizations, and they were typical hobbies. On the basis of his character, he was also endeavoring to keep his power. He did not do that by striking an adversary with a sharp dagger, but he did that in his own soft manner, and even by being kind, or he used other methods. He did not start immediately by being soft. That particular characteristic of his which was the certain insecurity I already mentioned before, he also showed to us, his closest collaborators. In other words, he showed us the contrast between the two main points, or one of the two points. Personally my relations ship to him, aside from a few arguments here and there, which resulted from contrary ideas or opinions, was always good.
Q Witness, most people imagine Himmler to be a man of brutal manners, a hard man?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What was that. I did not catch that. What kind of man?
THE INTERPRETER: A hard man.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Did you make an observation here which would support this opinion?
A Well, a hard man in the sense in which I look at it, in other words, a person who harbors in himself a power which fights against those persons who do not agree with his own conceptions of things, I unfortunately was not. On the contrary, according to my own experience, he was one of the most winning instruments of Hitler. If any one else would have been considered as soft, or, rather if any one had ever knocked on a table with dishes with his fist, it would have been Hitler; he simply could not do that. In this connection one only could consider him suave, even to a point of being a "sissy" to use a sharp term. As many other men, I would say that most of them, even all of them, were aware of Himmler due to the fact he belonged to those who were over "relais", who could sort of exercise a specll of his dominating will over the entire organization, regardless of Hitler, or the Gauleiters, or even Goering and the practice even occurred ---
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Suppose we get to the point and not wandering away from those issues. I would like for him to do some illustrating. The translation came through that he, Himmler, was one of the most winning instruments of Hitler. Then thereafter there was a metaphorical expression about his striking the dishes, or the table. I did not get the concept of that, and I would appreciate you asking him, or to get an explanation from him by a question, which permits us to get a little more clearly just what was intended.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, you heard the question, that it did not come through entirely in the translation just how Himmler apparently re-enacted to Hitler's intentions, and I would appreciate if you would repeat that?
AAccording to the sense, I said that Himmler freely reacted too much to the recognition of Hitler's intentions. In other words, that he did not have the power within himself, to like other men, simply slamming his fist on the table; that, therefore, he was one amongst the many others who were the people who did not have the will power to fight Hitler. In other words, he was a willing instrument of Hitler's.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I don't get the difference between Himmler and Hitler. It is mixed up. If I understand it correctly, that Himmler was under the influence of Hitler, is that what I understand. When you refer to him, you refer to both Hitler and Himmler, and the third, the last is unsatisfactory; we don't know whom you mean; whether Hitler or Himmler themselves, when you give such a complicated description.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, if I understood you correctly, you mean to say the following: That Himmler as a result of his entire character, was Hitler's instrument without any willpower, is that correct?
A Yes.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Oh, I see. Very well. Thank you.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, in speaking of Hitler right now, I should ask you how often did you see Hitler personally within your field of tasks?
A I stood before Hitler personally, twice in my life. On one occasion in 1939, I was introduced to him after being appointed Ministerial Director, and, in July 1944. I saw him together with Frank, that is, the defendant Frank here. Then I was ordered to carry out the reform of the Wehrmacht Administration. In both cases Himmler was present and introduced. Hitler then approached me and shook hands with me. That was all.
Q In Count I of the indictment, it is alleged that not only the defendants had conspired to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, but that other persons had been involved. I wish to ask you now, witness, were there any discussions between you, Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, and the chief of the other main offices of the Wehrmacht, did you have any conversations amongst each other, or, did you have any meetings for the purpose to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity?
A I have already mentioned before that in all of those years during which I was subordinated to Himmler, I never participated in one single discussion which Himmler carried out with all of his main office chief, or with a few of them at the same time. Even amongst the main office chiefs, I have never seen such official meetings. Whatever these persons had to do with each other was always taken care of by telephone. It may be, that once in a while one man would visit the other. Of course, I was in the Leadership Main Office, the FHA, and what we had to discuss with a few of the speakers, regularly, or irregularly, but official meetings never occurred.
Q I refer to March 1942, within the organization of the WVHA there was a change insofar as on the basis of an order by the Reichsfuehrer-SS, the Inspectorate of the concentration camps of Amtsgruppe-D was incorporated into the WVHA, and, after that date, there was a provision for the Inspectorate of the concentration camps, and in answering this question, I want you to limit yourself to your own section, because we shall discuss this point a grain later?
A The Inspectorate of the concentration camps had an independent position as far as this was possible with regard to its position in the SS Leadership Main Office, the F.H.A., that is, so far as you are talking about being incorporated into the SS and WVHA, I personally was never aware of the fact that the inspectorate of the concentration camps from 1940 to 1942, was incorporated in the Leadership Main Office, the F.H.A. I only found out about that on the basis of documents which I studied. We always thought that the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was directly subordinated to Himmler.
Q You mentioned before that you had obtained knowledge of this through the study of documents. By that do you mean the study of documents of these trials?
A Yes.
Q What were the reasons for incorporating the Inspectorate of concentration camps into the WVHA, and, what were the orders with regard to the reorganization which the Reichsfuehrer-SS gave you at that time?
A In March 1942 Himmler asked me to come to his place, and he told me approximately the following: The war has now reached its climax. The most important thing, or the most important problem before us not is the procurements of labor for the Armament Industry. A discussion took place at the Fuehrer's Headquarters and orders were issued to the effect that a Plenipotentiary-General for labor allocation would be appointed by the Fuehrer. He was not to byepass the labor in the concentration camps, with regard to these questions, they were in the foreground. He said in other words, "I have to have a man who can tell me the possible effect, the new Plenipotentiary-General will have, and, who on the other hand, will see that the decree of Hitler with regard to the labor allocation question will actually be carried out."