THE PRESIDENT: I have heard this before, it seems to me. Isn't this the same story we had about an hour ago, and an objection was made, that your questions were leading and you admitted they were leading and said you would not do it again, and here we are right back again.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I do not have the impression I am asking leading questions at this time. I asked the witness, what effect did the subordination of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps into the WVHA had on the remaining matters pertaining to the camps with regard to the defendant Pohl?
THE PRESIDENT: That was not the question. That is different from the other question. All right, let's go ahead, and I say at the same time that you to do it in a proper way, let this witness tell you the answer instead of the reverse.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you have heard the question?
A. May I ask you to repeat the question once more in a proper form, so that I may answer it in the same proper manner.
THE PRESIDENT: Good.
THE WITNESS: Which I am only unable to do but which I would like to do.
THE PRESIDENT: Remember what he said, in a proper form.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, what effect did the subordination of the organization in the incorporation of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps into the WVHA have with regard to the administration of these camps?
A. The labor allocation of prisoners now was more uniformly controlled, that was the idea of the assignment, which I believe I have already stated in the information which I have given before.
Q. Which Agency was handling the other administrative matters of the concentration camps?
A. The Inspectorate of the concentration camps of which I already said in answer to a previous question, that it was the top organizational level which had its won personnel administration, and its own personnel department, and its own legal agencies, according to a desire of the Reichsfuehrer Pohl was only to be above the matter, he had only to take care of the administrative aspects and the economic aspects.
Q. Through this order of Himmler did anything change in the independence of the Inspectorate of the concentration camps?
A. Independence in the organizational chart, whenever you look at it on the paper the answer is yes. In practice, however, the RSHA and the Reichsfuehrer-SS, as before; the old practice continued the same, giving direct orders as had been done for years, to give direct orders to the Inspectorate of the concentration camps.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, when you mentioned economic matters that Pohl was to administer, what did you mean when you said, "Economic matters of the concentration camps"?
THE WITNESS: I am referring to all the question of labor allocation of prisoners, of food, and the administration of the so called economic enterprises.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, was the WVHA a big authority or was it a smaller main office?
A. The WVHA was a very large authority. Sofar as I know it had more than a thousand, approximately, about fifteen-hundred employees and collaborators in its organization. Therefore, it was not easy to administer, and it was very hard not to overlook things, and particularly details. It was very complicated.
Q. Was Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in view of the face of this agency, was he able to handle the details or did he have to limit this in the issuance of general directives and instructions?
A. He could only lead it on a larger scale and from case to case whenever something seemed very important, and the time permitted it then he could also take care of individual cases. However, the large number of tasks, as the defense counsel could describe better than I could, kept him from constantly going into details, because of the lack of time.
Q. At the same time when the Inspectorate of the concentration camps was incorporated into the WVHA, Sauckel was appointed Plenipotentiary General for labor allocation. Now I shall ask you, did this task have anything to do with the concentration camps, and where were these foreign workers billeted?
A. The actions for the conscription of workers, which was carried out by Sauckel, procured the workers for the so called prisoner allocation of labor within the armament industry or in the German agriculture. The foreign workers who had been conscripted by Sauckel from foreign countries, or from the occupied territories were put into their own quarters. In part they were billeted in barracks, or then in kaserns. They were able to go whenever they wanted to, and they could not in any way be compared to concentration camp prisoners.
Q. Within this trial the so called "Action Reinhardt" has played a very important part. I now ask you when did you for the first time here of this "Action Reinhardt." Did Himmler ever discuss this operation with you, or were you not informed by any men of his chief offices of this action?
A. That the "Action Reinhardt" ever existed, and above all under the name of Reinhardt, I have only heard here in Nurnberg. Of the terrible exterminations of Jews, and other exterminations in the camps which was carried out at Lublin and Auschwitz I heard for the first time on 19 March 1945, when I came to Switzerland in order to handle the capitulation negotiations there at the time. At the time I was in Switzerland my Swiss friends gave me Switzerland newspapers, and showed me with horror of the first reports that bore atrocities in that form as carried out in the concentration camp of Lublin, which had been published in the papers.
Himmler himself never discussed these things with me and in my opinion he never discussed them with any other main office chief or with any other person who was not directly needed as an active collaborator for the execution of this most terrible program of all times. We know the Fuehrer's order which states explicitly and which was issued long years before -- that is, I believe, when the plans for the planned western offensive in 1940 were lost. This order stated that nobody should obtain more knowledge of any important assignment and that he should not be informed of it earlier than was actually required by him to carry out this assignment.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Witness, it is only fair to state to you that this member of the Tribunal listens with a great deal of skepticism to your statement that you did not know of the extermination program until March 1945. It is rather difficult for me to understand how a person of your intelligence, with your high position, and occupying the intimate association that you did with Himmler, being his adjutant, not to know of this program which could not have been executed without a great deal of coordination and a great mass of executants.
A. First of all, I can assure Your Honor that the testimony which I have made is fully correct, and for its veracity, in order to remove the due skepticism of Your Honor, I can only add that I myself did not participate in it, that I could not have assisted the Reichsfuehrer SS in the least in carrying out this extermination program. May I also point out that with the outbreak of the war, on 1 September 1939, I left the immediate vicinity of the Reichsfuehrer SS. At that time I entered the staff of the Fuehrer, so that, apart from several exceptions, I was almost constantly separated from the Reichsfuehrer SS.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Well, the Fuehrer, Hitler himself, could scarcely be regarded as a great lover of the Jews. You say you did not hear any of these programs discussed in Himmler's headquarters because you were at Hitler's headquarters.
A. Yes, but in Hitler's headquarters this matter was still less discussed.
Neither the Fuehrer nor the Reichsfuehrer SS ever talked to us about an extermination program of the Jews.
May I perhaps make an additional statement. I would like you to consider that I, as liaison officer and as the first general of the Waffen SS, was with the Fuehrer only for the tasks concerning the Waffen SS and not as liaison officer for the Security Police assignments. I was never a general in the police. I was never an officer in the police, and after, in the First World War, I had become a professional officer of the guard, I did not now want to become a police officer, but again I wanted to become a line officer.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Very well. Proceed, Dr. Seidl.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Taking it for granted that Himmler gave the order for the extermination of these people in the concentration camps, through what channels and through what executives would these orders ordinarily have been carried out?
A. I don't know if I can start frog the point of a normal form, Your Honor, as Your Honor mentioned, because the order itself is so abnormal and so inhuman that I believe it is a false conclusion, but in order to answer the question of Your Honor, I would like to point out that the Reichsfuehrer SS would have discussed it with the Chief of the Security Police normally, and the technical details of execution would have been agreed upon between them, and then this terrible secret would have been limited to a minimum, that is, the circle of persons participating in this terrible program.
Q. Wouldn't you assume that the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps would know something about it?
A. It is very difficult to answer this question in an off-hand manner. If I am correctly informed, I know from newspapers which I have seen in the meantime that Himmler would have informed the commander of the concentration camps, Hoess of Auschwitz and Globocnick of Lublin, that he would have told them to come and see him, and he personally would have given them this assignment, and he would have made the worst threats to them in case they did not keep this official secret.
Q. Well, if the WVHA had charge of the allocation of all the labor in the concentration camps, which you say is true, and the economic administration of the inmates, don't you think that if the evidence is true that over 3,000,000 people were exterminated that would make a difference so great that they would have to know something about it in order to properly allocate the labor?
A. Your Honor, please consider that I have the greatest interest in achieving a complete verification, not only in the interest of the non-criminal part of the SS of our innocence, but also of our guilt. But I know--
Q. This Tribunal wants to find the truth, that is all. That is what we are trying to do right now, to find the truth about this.
A. Yes. I can only say that in my conviction and as far as my knowledge goes the Reichsfuehrer SS probably - and I can only assume that - in order to give my conviction to the best of my knowledge and belief - the Reichsfuehrer SS would not have discussed the details with the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps. Whether and at what period of time the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps, in the course of the execution, might have obtained knowledge of these problems, that, of course, I cannot judge myself because at that period of time I was not there anymore, but was already in Italy.
Q. I was merely asking you because you are familiar with all the channels and are familiar with the offices and set-up of the WVHA, the duties and responsibilities, and also you are familiar with the orders that Himmler gave in regard to matters that he wanted them to carry out. That is the reason I was asking you, more or less as an expert on this subject, that if you did not, in your mind, have the opinion and be satisfied that in a matter of that large a scale the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps would have to know something about it.
A. May I ask once more what Your Honor would like to know now in addition to what I have already stated?
Q. I am frank to tell you I did not understand the translation I got of your answer to my former question, just the preceding question to the last one.
A. Could I ask the interpreter to give me the question once more.
(Question repeated in German by the interpreter.)
A. I can only repeat once more that I am not a specialist in matters pertaining to the WVHA, but I know only in large outline the normal sphere of work which is generally known to me. I have stated that this assignment for the extermination of Jews was something quite abnormal. It was so far outside the experiences which had accumulated in years that it is extremely difficult for me to answer such an important question which has been asked by Your Honor.
I can only repeat once more what I have said before. I believe that the Reichsfuehrer would first of all have discussed this matter with the Chief of the Security Police, and that he would have discussed with him the technical execution, and he would have discussed it with the smallest possible circle and limited it to that circle. However I can only support myself on assumptions in this case, and I do not know if the Reichsfuehrer as perhaps regarding Gluecks consulted him, and if the Reichsfuehrer discussed this matter with Brigadefuehrer Gluecks and told him of this secret. I said I don't know. I consider it improbable for this primary stage. However, I believe that the inspectorate, in the course of the execution of these things, has or probably at the conclusion of this operation has, obtained knowledge at that time.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Witness, when did you go to Italy?
A. On the 9th of September, 1943, after I had been sick for six months before, and as I already stated during the Milch trial, I was operated on at Hohenlychen, Karsvad, and Gastein, and I was convalescing there.
Q. Were you a member of the circle of Himmler's friends?
A. Yes, or to express it more clearly in cases where Himmler was prevented from attending, I personally participated in the monthly conferences of the industrial circle of friends of the Reichsfuehrer, and I repeatedly or let us say often attended these conferences as his representative or representative, deputy of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and I attended the dinners.
Q. Well, never mind, that is going too far afielf. Did you hear the speech of Himmler at Posen?
A. No, I did not hear that speech.
Q. Did you hear the speech at Posen in October, 1943?
A. No, because at that time I was already in Italy.
Q. Yes, and you didn't hear about it in Italy?
A. No, this speech was not distributed to the leaders who were at the front.
Q. Well, did you ever hear about Russians and Poles, who were not Jews, being exterminated and killed, did you ever hear about that?
A. No, I have never heard anything about extermination. I know that in the case of combatting partisans, and in cases of attempts at life harsh measures were taken and people would be shot, but what your Honor is probably referring to is systematic and planned extermination
Q. Exactly, exactly. Did you ever hear about that?
A. No. before the war
Q. This is the first time?
A. Please?
Q. This is the first you ever heard about it?
A. After the captitulation I was reproached with that, and I was asked about it, and that is when I heard it for the first time.
Q. Oh. Do you believe it happened?
A. That the extermination actually took place?
Q. Yes.
A. I have no proof of the fact. However, I fear that extermination was carried out on a large scale.
Q. You are inclined to believe it then; you don't think it is propaganda?
A. No. I regret to have to confirm to you that today I am of the opinion that exterminations were actually carried out without our knowledge.
Q. Have you any idea of the extent of the exterminations?
A. No I have heard of figures from two to twenty millions according to the papers which brought the news. In my experience I have never found anyone, even of my interrogators or judges, who could give me an exact figure.
However, I would be very grateful to your Honor if on this occasion you could give me the exact number.
THE PRESIDENT: There were so many that no one could count them. No one knows how many, but all of the evidence points to several million at least.
THE WITNESS: I am very grateful to your Honor for the information which you have just given me.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, during the time you served in the war, did you meet many high SS leaders?
A Yes. I saw the majority of them on the occasion of visits at the front or whenever they were given high awards at the Fuehrer's headquarters, and also when occasionally I came to the Field Command Agency of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.
Q. Did any of the high SS leaders discuss the extermination program of the Jews with you in any form? At any time.
A. No.
Q. Did anybody at the headquarters of the Reichsfuehrer-SS ever discuss this extermination program of the Jews with you?
A. No.
Q. During the time you stated at the Fuehrer's headquarters did anybody discuss this extermination program of the Jews with you?
A. No.
Q. Since September, 1943, you were the Highest SS and Police Leader in Italy. In this capacity did any high SS officer or other member of the SS discuss the extermination program with you or similar measures against the Jews?
A. No, and I have never received an order or a similar order to this effect for my sphere of command.
Q. Did the Defendant Oswald Pohl during the war ever discuss the extermination program with you?
A. No.
Q. Did Brigadefuehrer Gluecks, and later Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks ever discuss this program with you?
A. No.
Q. I now come to my final question. What reputation did the Defendant Oswald Pohl have within the SS leadership as a soldier and as a comrade?
A. One must perhaps differentiate here between two phases, the phase until the capitulation ad the phase afterwards. Up to the time of the capitulation, and until we heard something of these atrocities in the concentration camps, which naturally because of their organizational and schematic connection incriminated the Defendant Oswald Pohl to a very large extent, until that time Oswald Pohl had a very good reputation. He was highly esteemed everywhere, and because of his energy and his comradeship and his assistance he was well liked, and he was a very respected comrade. We know that money rules the world. He was the man who in this case had to distribute the funds, and at that time, at his best time, he was the chief, there might have been some people who bore a grudge against him if he was unable to satisfy every desire. However, up to the time of the capitulation I never heard any criticism worthy of mentioning against him, besides making fun about some little human weaknesses which he had like all other mortals. After the capitulation, of course, the opinion and the readiness of his old comrades to intervene in his behalf and to expose themselves in public unfortunately disappeared to a very large extent, and I would like you to consider that point also when you ask the questions.
Q. You have previously stated that this schematic organizational connection apparently incriminated him. What do you mean by that?
A. After the attacks which appeared in the German press and the world press, and which described Pohl as the worst criminal after the Fuehrer, the Reichsfuehrer-SS, this already means a very bad incrimination because the outsider will assume that the press will not write anything of that sort without having a sufficient basis for that, and therefore after so many other horrible facts and atrocities were stated afterwards, everything seems to have turned against Oswald Pohl.
However, I, as I have already described to the Tribunal before, knew him since 1934, and I know him very closely indeed, and since I have seen what mental difficulties he had to undergo before he carried out his first divorce, and beyond that in how decent and honorable a manner he carried this through, I am still convinced today that Pohl did not issue any order for the killing of any human being and that it was not the intention of Pohl, the intentional purpose of Pohl, to work somebody to death. It is his misfortune to be connected upon orders organizationally with the most terrible problem of all centuries.
And that he seems to have been brought into connection with this, and to stand today before this Tribunal under the charge that the verdict of the IMT, has declared the SS, and with that all members of the SS from the very beginning as members of a criminal organization. And that already is a preliminary charge in itself. Of course this is a terrible handicap for Pohl, and it is also a severe incrimination which has also been placed on the hundreds of thousands of young, enthusiastic volunteers which has been thrown after them into the graves; who died without having had any idea about Auschwitz or Lublin, gladly gave their lives in fulfilling military service for their country in the belief that they had been members of the elite, the knights of the German people, and who today in their graves still are the victims of this verdict.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the defendants Dr. Volk and Dr. Bobermin):
Q. Witness, was it possible for a member of the SS, about after the year 1934, to honorably be discharged from the SS?
A. Not in general. There were only a few persons, extraordinary cases, and these were extra-ordinary specialists where a discharge from the Order of the SS was possible, because the SS actually was an Order and one could not enter it and resign from it at random; and only in special cases was this resignation possible. These exceptions were if somebody in looking at his ancestral background discovered that according to his ancestors he was not up to the conditions for membership in the SS. Or in the case when a marriage was to take place which required the approval of the Race & Settlement Main Office of the SS, and contrary to the disapproval of the Race & Settlement Main Office, and he insisted on marrying this woman or girl. And the third possibility which I can recall at the moment, where an exception could take place was if he left the SS and was transferred from the SS to the Wehrmacht. However, these cases only occurred very rarely, which above all, the two last, required the approval of the Reichsfuehrer SS.
In the printed service lists of the SS, a printed black book, where all the personal data of the SS leaders were contained as far as I can remember, at the end of the book there was always a space left, and it included the SS leaders who, in the course of time up to the publication of the last list, had left the SS.
This list which can be controlled very easily, as far as I can remember, was never very large and it only contained one paragraph. I think it was not even one page. That is because the exceptions were so rare and they can be determined very easily by the Tribunal.
Q. And how about resignation from the Waffen SS during the war?
A. A resignation from the Waffen SS, during the war, was practically out of the question unless the person had been wounded so severely that he was unable to serve in the Armed forces anymore.
Q. Was it possible that a member of the Waffen SS just desired to resign from the Waffen SS?
A. I don't think there is a number of cases of which I might have received knowledge. However, in accordance with the oath which I had given I don't believe that I can deny here that I myself in the year 1943 requested the Reichfuehrer SS for my resignation from the Waffen SS, and that was disapproved. At the time I had fallen into disgrace with him, and he probably was also afraid that I had become too powerful, and I had too much influence with the Fuehrer because I had worked with the SS for more than a decade from all my heart and fully convinced to do the right thing.
Q. Witness, let us go away from your personal case which was different on account of your position. But how was it with simple members of the Waffen SS, or the Hauptsturmfuehrer, Sturmbannfuehrer, and so on?
A. That was out of the question. It would have been considered as desertion and the person in question would have had nothing but the worst danger and the utmost difficulties. And if he had done this in a responsible position or during a period of crisis, certainly a court martial would have been instituted against him. I previously only wanted to state that not even I, in my particularly high position, could achieve this although I wanted to go to Africa to join my old World War I regiment as officer of the reserve.
Q. Now another point, witness. Of what did the activity of the members of the leadship reserve of the Allgemeine SS consist, which was assigned to the SS Main Office or the Personal Staff?
A. The assignment of the so-called Fuehrer Reserve of the Allgemeine SS to some of the main offices was a formal procedure, and it meant that the person concerned did not perform any active service in a unit of the SS, but that, so to speak, was at the disposition of orders.
Q. Thank you witness. I have no further questions.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the defendant Mummenthey):
Q. General, you have already previously testified and you have stated that you, as one of the survivors of the Waffen SS, consider it a blame to be considered a member of a criminal organization. Do you know of the verdict of the IMT insofar as it refers to the members of the Waffen SS?
A. As I am a prisoner I only see newspaper clippings, and one time I saw an excerpt of the verdict, a mimeographed copy. And since I was completely shut off from the outside world I was unable to receive any more information about it.
Q. According to the verdict of the IMT the charge of having been a member of a criminal organization -- refers to everybody who after the first of September 1939 who was still a member of the SS and remained a member of the SS, and knew that the SS was used for criminal purposes and aims. Previously you talked about the incidents at Auschwitz and Lublin where parts of the SS took such a regrettable part. In the concentration camps too such atrocities are alleged to have been performed, i.e. by members of the SS.
I now ask you witness, how do you explain the possibility that in contrast to the honorable manner of fighting of the Waffen SS, which you emphasized, members of this SS murdered innocent concentration camp prisoners, and ill-treated them?
A. I explained this fact in the following way; at the outbreak of the war the best parts of the concentration camp guards, the so-called Death Head Units or Death Head Standarts, which in general at that time were still organized in battalions, were withdrawn from concentration camps and were organized for combat service at the fromt -- for honorable combat at the fromt. For this purpose, of course, the best men were selected. The first organization to be established in this way was the Death Head Unit which as a motorized Division first fought in France and then participated in the Russian campaign. With the increasing losses gradually all the officers and non-commissioned officers of the Death Head Units who had gone through our war or officers' schools or who had received a regular orderly military basic training were sent to the front in order to replace casualties. Then, mostly, the worst eliments remained behind, those who had not received any regular education or professional training and so on. According to the confirmation which I gained afterwards from the press and from books they took the place of the expected or hoped for elite replacements but constituted exactly the contrary of them and became the greatest shame and burden for us.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until tomorrow morning.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 4 June at 0930 hours.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 4 June 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
The Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United States of American and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the courtroom.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann for the defendant Mummenthey.
DR. SCHMIDT-KLEVENOW, a witness, resumed the stand and testified as follows:
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, yesterday before the recess you answered my questions about the reasons which lead to inhuman atrocities on the part of the staff of the personnel in the concentration camps. You probably know that according to the verdict of the IMT the SS are charged also with inhuman acts at the front, and that the knowledge of that fact for the defendants, like my client Mummenthey, for instance, should have been sufficient cause to resign from the SS. I shall now ask you how strong was the contingent which consisted of SS men within the war?
A. The contingent of the Waffen-SS at the front varied at various periods in the war. In the so-called Polish campaign, for instance, in the organization of the Waffen-SS the so-called special task troops of the SS went out, and some battalions, and three Standarten of Deathhead Units. In France, there were already three divisions, and the number of divisions increased up to the end of the war to a total number approximately of thirty-six to forty.
Q. How many men were in the thirty-six divisions, approximately?
A. As far as I know, in the course of the war there were approximately one million men who went through the ranks of the Waffen-SS, including the 300,000 dead or badly wounded.
Q. Now, General, what was the proportion between the number of guards in concentration camps and the number of men in the war? Can you estimate the proportion between those two figures?
A. As I was in Italy in the last two years of the war, I had to rely on statements made by comrades who had fought the war at home or at some official agency and therefore had more knowledge than I had. As far as I know, the guard personnel at the end of the war consisted of probably about 35,000 men. Only 6,000 of them were SS members, whereas the balance of 29,000 consisted of members of the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe, and to a large extent of the Reich Association of Veterans, the so-called Kyffhäuser-Bund.
Q. Now, General, during your activities in the Fuehrer SS Headquarters, did you hear about incidents whereby the SS in the field was used for criminal activities, incidents, that is, from which the conclusion could be drawn that the SS was used at all for such purposes?
A. No, such orders never came from above; and I believe it would be stupid to deny that to a modest degree and extent there were certain offenses or violations of international law on the part of the Waffen SS. But that occurred to the same extent on the other side as well. I might perhaps recall here the so-called Malmedy trial, where, according to the Dachau sentence in July of last year, more than forty members of the Leibstandarte were sentenced to death, including the demanding officer of the tank regiment, Colonel Peiper. This trial furnished evidence for the sentence of the Waffen SS as a criminal organization. I believe it is generally known that trial is about to be reviewed again because after the things which have been found out meanwhile, it can no longer be maintained. I myself in July of last year at once protested very strongly against the sentence.
Q. General, you said just now that on the whole you do not know of any incidents which would allow the conclusion that the SS was used for criminal purposes in the war?
A. May I perhaps add something here breifly as I am under oath and must not withhold anything? I just remember that in the Polish campaign the Wehrmacht charged the SS with about eight-five incidents. These incidents were discussed in the Fuehrer's Headquarters, investigated most carefully for about five months; and it became clear that from these eighty-five incidents seven or eight had been justified. That is to say, violations against international law or criminal activities had occurred. Another seven cases were a bit dubious and could not be cleared up. The other seventy charged collapsed. People who were of themselves punishable were punished as far as I remember. There were negotiations and conferences between the Reich Fuehrer SS and the then Commander-in-chief of the Army Field Marshal von Brauchitsch; and the whole thing was cleared up.
Q. Did these things become known in a larger circle?
A. After the Polish campaign in certain cases these charges were used by the Wehrmacht up to a point in order to show that in most cases the charges had collapsed; and with the criminal proceedings taken, the matter was done with.
Q. Now, General, as counsel for Mummenthey, a rather lower leader in the SS, I had to put these questions to you. Now I should like to ask you, supposing Mummenthey knew of incidents in concentration camps, was it possible for him to reach the conclusion, or could anybody reach the conclusion that these were the effect of a system of the SS such as the IMT in its sentence found?
A. In my honest, personal conviction, to the best of my knowledge and belief, no, because I believe that an even more detailed investigation of the real facts of the case would lead to a clarification of the terrible incidents which both temporarily and factually all came together immediately after the German surrender, and it reached a logical conclusion which, in my solemn conviction, will not bear the examination of history.