Q What was your last rank as an official?
A My last rank as an official was Oberregierungsrat.
Q Is it correct that it was only after 1933 that you joined the Party and the SS?
A Yes. I joined the party or rather I signed up in 1932 and I joined the Allgemeine-SS Cavalry between 1933 and 1934.
Q When and how were you transferred to the WVHA, and what was your field of task?
A I was transferred to the WVHA immediately after the end of my apprenticeship. I was transferred to Office B-I there.
Q What was your field of task?
A In Office B-1, I first of all dealt with tasks of the cooks apprenticeship school of the Waffen-SS. Later on, I dealt with personnel and organization of the Army Economic Camps. Furthermore, Georg Loerner used me as a recordman, a man to keep the records in the commissions of which he had charge. This had to do with the simplification of the Wehrmacht Administration.
Q Please tell us in a few words the tasks of Office B-1.
A Office B-1, principally, had the task of supplying to the units of the Waffen-SS and Police, who were stationed in the homeland, with both food and PX articles. That food supply and PX supply was also to be applied to the reserve troops. That was the reason Army Economic Gestapos were established which took care of that matter. All tasks which were dealt with by Office B-1 concentrated on those things I just mentioned.
Q Did Office B-1 have anything to do with the food supply of concentration camps?
A Office B-1 had nothing to do with the supplying of concentration camp inmates with food.
Q From where does the food of concentration camp inmates come?
A The concentration camps drew their food from the Civilian Sector. They received from the competent food office, certain coupons and it was on the basis of those Bezugsscheine or coupons that they drew their rations through the civilian food supply agencies.
The guards of the concentration camp were military units. They were fed just like all the other units of the Waffen-SS and the Police.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Did each concentration camp commander order and obtain the food supply for the concentration camp inmates?
THE WITNESS: I do not know that. I do not know too much about the orders which were sent to the concentration camp commandants.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You said they were drawn from civilian supply depots?
THE WITNESS: Yes. That is correct. That was a general regulation issued by the Reichs Food Ministry. It was known to all of us.
Q Did you, during your term in Office B-1, have the opportunity to find out who visited Herr Tschentscher in order to negotiate with him?
A Yes. I had an office for quite a while which was right next to Mr. Tschentscher's. All visitors who wanted to see Mr. Tschentscher had to go right through my office. I was not the man in charge of the anteroom of Mr. Tschentscher, but I still had the task of keeping undesirable visitors away from him. That was the reason I had to ask every visitor for the reason he was present. Most of the time the visitors were troop commanders and administrative leaders who wanted to discuss with him some sort of feeding in question. That referred either to the distribution in one of the four Army ration depots or perhaps reference was made to PX articles. There was also the question of supply. That was the main thing. Most of the visitors who came dealt with those things. However, there were certain people who wanted to have something for themselves. Most of the time the applicants want PX articles. I had to see to it that these visitors were sent away from Mr. Tschentscher. That is the reason we had a big sign in the office which said, "This is Office B-1, not a grocery store."
Q In other words, it was your task to ask the visitors who wanted to see Tschentscher what they wanted.
You could tell us who visited Tschentscher and what they wanted. Were there any people who came from Office Group D?
A The people who came from Office D, I did not know. I still do not know them at the present time. If they had come often, I would have known them.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that D-4 had asked him to supply food for the concentration camps? By "him" I mean Dr. Tschentscher?
A You mean delivery of normal food? No. D-IV did not ask him for any such thing because what Mr. Tschentscher had was nothing but Army supply. That Army supply was not to be sent to anybody else but the Army. However, I know for sure that once in a while, certain food supplies were given out by Tschentscher. I can recall additional food for old people was given out by Tschentscher, and also canned vegetables for the sick. Tschentscher helped out with such things once in a while.
Q Was that something that occurred regularly or only once in a while?
A I already said before that, he just helped them out once in a while because normally, he could not have been able to send supplies to them. They were Army supplies.
Q Was there a right to request such supplies?
A Only the Army had the right to request such supplies, nobody else.
Q Did Tschentscher also help other agencies in a similar way, once in a while?
A Yes. That did occur. He supplied something to hospitals once in a while. That is, only on special occasions, holidays. Then they also sent something to the people who were left behind, I mean relatives of veterans who were killed in the war and to certain units who came home who had lost everything in the homeland, and who were tired.
Certain supplies were also sent to Muselman units who needed something special due to religious reasons.
Q Did you have the opportunity to see the entire correspondence of Office B-1?
A Yes. I saw all the correspondence with the exception of the secret matters. I only saw the secret matters as far as they concerned my own field of task.
Q How was it with the field of task with other officers in the WVHA?
A We did not have too much contact with the other officers in the WVHA. We knew there was a separation between various fields of task, and what they were doing, but as far as what was going on with the officers themselves, was concerned, we did not know. We very rarely discussed those tasks among each other because the things that we would have discussed were daily routine matters. What would have been interesting usually went through as secret. Therefore, it could not be discussed. I would like to add at this point that the secrecy in our organization was very severe. For instance, every bomb damage regardless how small it was, which occurred in an Army Economic Depot was to be reported to our office secretly. In other words, there was not very much talk about things of common interest.
Q What other offices did you have contact with in the WVHA?
A We were in the same house with offices B-2 and B-5. We had a certain contact with those two agencies or offices, and with B-5 particularly with Supply questions.
Q Unofficially was there any contact there?
A Well of the unofficial contact that was rather limited, even very limited you know to days of the bombs in Berlin. We were only glad when everything had passed by, we were glad if we had survived the night, and we did not have to make contact with members of the other offices, because they were distributed over a larger area. For instance, the WVHA, I did not know anybody whom I could speak to with the German "thou", which is a rather intimate form of addressing somebody.
Q How often did the defendant Tschentscher represent Amtsgruppen Chief Loerner in the office?
A I only had experience with him on one occasion. That was early in 1944 when Loerner was taking a short vacation.
Q What was the impression you had about the deputization?
A I was under the impression the deputization limited itself to the fact that Tschentscher would deal with the matters which he would have had to report to Loerner in such a way that he could make a final decision. Finally with other office chiefs he acted in the same way of their competencies. Herr Tschenstcher submitted several things for his signature. If other offices did this as deputy of Loerner's I did not observe.
Q Did you know Professor Schenk?
A Yes, Professor Schenk was already known to me during my civilian activity. Early in the war he was sub-physician in the Army, and he was a man in the confidence of Dr. Conti of the Reich Health Service, and he was Medical Advisor with the Reich Food Ministry, and I esteemed him very highly, I think, at the time because he was very objective, he appeared to be very objective to me, and because he appeared to be a good scientist. Later on, however, unfortunately I had to change my opinion.
Q What did Professor Schenk have to do with B-1?
A Professor Schenk actually had very little to do with Office B-1. Of course, we were highly interested in his suggestions with respect to the food, and every change to the better, and he made several suggestions to us. However, officially, according to my knowledge, he was under Pohl and Himmler exclusively, and was only dealt with by Office B-1 in an economical sense.
Q Were you under an impression that Professor Schenk was a man who could exert a lot of influence, if he had an independent position, and if he did whatever he pleased, and, this above all, was he dependent upon you or Office B-1 with whatever he wanted to take care of?
A I believe that Professor Schenk was very independent indeed. He did not depend upon our office, or upon Tschentscher.
Q Is it correct that Professor Schenk carried out some activity which went outside the framework of the WVHA?
A Yes, during the last few months of the war he became Food Inspector with the High Command of the Army. In his official position with us he was mainly in charge of the control and supervision of the Unit of the Waffen-SS and of the Police, which lived in barracks. However, we found that Schenk was actually experimenting in things we would not hear very much about, because of course, he was very discreet. If one asked him a question he would answer the question very briefly, and he would not show what the score was. Things became rather complicated with him for us; that I remember I had small discussions with him because I had dared to cross him on things in one of his books which he had written, and I would like to say while at the beginning of the war when I first met him he appreciated criticism. Yes, he once liked scientific arguments, and I would like to say that he was very sensitive towards me during the war, as sensitive as a deer. The most important thing which he created was the Vitamin-C from gladioles.
That preparation was used quite a lot by the Army. Then furthermore, he created new spices, because there was a definite lack of foreign spices in Germany, and his suggestions for the betterment of Army food were published in several books and leaflets.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Why did you change your opinion later on with regard to him?
A I did not quite get that question. Did you ask me why or what?
Q You said you thought very highly of him?
A Yes.
Q At one time, but that later on you had to change your opinion of him. Now will you give us circumstances which made you change your opinion, and why you changed your opinion of him later on?
A I had to change my opinion about him because at the beginning he was very frank, he could stand a criticism, and he was very objective, and it was later on that he changed entirely. He was under the impression that whatever he said was correct, and he just would not comply with certain regulations, etc.
Q It was not because of any experiments that he conducted on concentration camp inmates that caused you to change your opinion of him, was it?
A No, I don't know anything about the experiments which were carried out on inmates, at least, allegedly. I don't know anything about it.
BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Now, witness, you told us of your titles under Dr. Tschentscher, and you told us about the officialship in the Agriculture Chamber in Berlin; that in 1935 you joined the Food Physiological Department of the Reich, and that you also became Oberregierungsrat in the Reich Ministry of Interior for interior questions, that is correct, is it?
A Yes.
Q Then I shall submit you questions concerning documents which we have here at our disposal in reference to what Professor Schenk is supposed to have done in the experimental field; then I might start with the assumption that you have a certain expert knowledge about those food questions?
A Yes. Well, I had to deal with those things officially.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I would like to stop the examination of the witness Ertel so far as his knowledge from Office B-1 is concerned. However, I would like to ask him a whole series of questions dealing with the things which actually appeared in this trial; that is, about the so called food experiment. What I mean I wish to ask him certain questions which he has an expert can answer. If you will permit me I would prefer to ask those questions after the noon recess, and then I would like to make certain remarks.
THE PRESIDENT: That is quite agreeable. We will take a recess now.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1345 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours, 24 June 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours.)
DR. PRIBILLA: If the Tribunal please, before asking the witness Ertel about something else, I should like to make a statement about my evidence on this point.
Yesterday and today I have attempted to clarify the relationship between Schenk's and Tschentscher's fields of tasks. I have endeavored to show that Schenk had an independent position, that as Himmler's favorite and as the Inspector with the OKH for Food for the Troops and Food Inspector for the Police and SS, he worked independently and that Tschentscher had nothing to do with whatever work and research was done by Schenk.
At this point I wish to go through the material submitted by the Prosecution about Schenk's experiments. In all documents submitted by the Prosecution about what was called the food experiments, I was struck by the fact that very little or nothing concrete was contained therein about the experiments themselves. I was present at the first Nurnberg trial as a Defense Counsel, and on both occasions we have talked of very many awful things about experiments on human beings. There can not be any doubt that a large number of our fellow human beings were tortured or killed in medical experiments, but in this case, in the field of food experiments, I saw nothing in the earlier trials which would show that the actual experiment was made in a dangerous manner, and, therefore, it is my opinion and part of my evidence that the material submitted here contains nothing which would be similar to these serious and frightful things.
I wanted to say that first before I begin to investigate Schenk's food experiments, and perhaps I shall have to smile about it even.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
DR. ARNOLD ERTEL - RESUMED DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. PRIBILLA:
Q Witness, do you know that Reichsfuehrer Himmler had a large number of ideas in all sorts of scientific fields which he attempted in an amateurish way, although quite originally, to carry out?
A Yes, that is very well put.
Q Yesterday, for instance, we heard that Himmler one day wanted to create a house of bad food. In that house cooks and troop commanders who had fed their troops badly were to stay where they could only eat burnt or spoiled food, and then be fed for three weeks in an exemplary way so that they could see the difference. Do you know about that?
A Yes, the house of bad food for troops is known to me, but from the beginning, as I see it, it was a farce. We had the order on one occasion from Himmler to carry out a course of that sort, but it became clear very quickly that the troops from the beginning were opposed to it, and we succeeded only in catching a few old police officials who were unable to escape from carrying out that order.
THE PRESIDENT: With the present state of the record, and the amount of proof submitted by the Prosecution on this subject, the Tribunal feels that it is not necessary for you to make any inquiry of this witness at this time. Should further proof be offered, or should it become necessary to meet this issue, you may recall this witness later to testify on this subject. I suggest that the necessity for more direct examination does not appear.
DR. SEIDL (For Oswald Pohl): May it please the Court, the food experiments which are the subject of the examination of this witness are part of the evidence submitted by the Prosecution and are contained, I believe, in Document Book 8. My colleague, Dr. Pribilla, and I came to an agreement that only one of us would talk about these food experiments and examine this witness, and from that point of view, Court No. II, Case No. 4.namely, that as defense counsel for Defendant Tschentscher he is more interested in the statements by this witness, we agreed between each other that he should ask this witness, inasmuch as questions will be concerned with food experiments.
Oswald Pohl is also interested in these questions, but if the Court feels that the evidence so far submitted by the Prosecution makes further interrogation of this witness superfluous, then I would personally do without any examination of this witness.
DR. PRIBILLA: As far as that is concerned, Mr. President, I am of the same opinion as Dr. Seidl concerning what the Court has been kind enough to tell us just now. The position is that I looked through the evidence submitted so far, and I would have asked the witness about every document concerned. He is the man who is in a position to tell us about wooden sausages and things of that sort, but, of course, it is much more important for me to hear that the Tribunal feels that this complex no longer needs to be discussed by the defense.
THE PRESIDENT: As the record now stands, and in the absence of any further proof, the Tribunal feels that it is unnecessary to further examine this witness. The Prosecution may cross-examine if they wish.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, you had to see everyone who came into Tschentscher's office?
A Yes, i had to do that.
Q Would you say everyone, or almost everyone?
A I have to say almost everyone, not everyone.
Q Did you sit in on the conferences that Tschentscher had with the people after you had passed them on to Tschentscher?
AAs far as my field of task was concerned, I frequently took part in these conferences.
Q How frequently, and concerning what conferences, what type of conferences?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I took part when the troop food depots were concerned, either as far as their personnel was concerned, questions of supply stock taking.
Q Did you know -- Let me ask you this, did you sit in on fifty percent of the conferences which Tschentscher had, or one-fourth of them, or approximately what proportion?
A I am unable to tell you this precisely. I am afraid I cannot answer your question. It might have been one-fourth, but I am not in a position to tell you that precisely.
Q Can you tell us how often Schenk visited Tschentscher?
A Schenk was very often absent from Berlin. He was more absent than present. When he was in Berlin he had to go to Tschentscher more frequently, of course, because he worked on suggestions to improve the food for the troops which were then - which would have had to be realized by Tschentscher.
Q About how often did he visit Tschentscher when he was in Berlin, once a week, twice a week, every day?
A I am inclined to say at least once a day when these two met.
Q Did you sit in on any conferences with Tschentscher and Schenk?
A Yes, I was present quite frequently.
Q Did you hear them talk about food in concentration camps on any of these conferences?
A No, food experiments in concentration camps I did not hear mentioned at any time.
Q I didn't ask you about food experiments. The feeding of concentration camp inmates, did you hear them discuss that at any time?
A No, I didn't hear them talk about that either.
Q You know, don't you, that Schenk was an inspector of food for the concentration camps? You know that he inspected the camps to see what the food condition was in the concentration camps, don't you?
A Whether Schenk's authority went as far as concentration camps Court No. II, Case No. 4.I don't know.
As far as I know he was more responsible for the troops and the regular police. Whether he had permission to visit concentration camps I really don't know.
Q And you don't know whether or not he ever discussed concentration camp food with Tschentscher?
A Why should he have talked to Tschentscher about that, because Tschentscher would not have been able to give him any answers. He would have had to talk about troop food with Tschentscher, but not food for concentration camp inmates.
Q You don't know that Tschentscher handled the food problem at Dora-Nordhausen?
A This may sound fantastic to the Tribunal, but I only heard about Dora here in Nurnberg for the first time.
Q Then you didn't hear about everything that went on in Tschentscher's office, did you?
A Well, I heard what was part of our official duties, but the Dora case, as I know now, happened in the autumn of 1943, whereas I joined B-1 only in April of 1944.
Q You didn't sit in on every conference between Schenk and Tschentscher, did you, just some of them?
A No, I was not present at every conference. Schenk had the peculiarity, or the position rather, of at least an office chief.
Q Tschentscher told us that. There is no need to go over that again. You said he had an independent position. Is that based on, is that conclusion based on your conversation with Schenk or your conversations with Tschentscher, or just seeing him pass through the office, from the correspondence, or what is that based on?
A Proof of that opinion is in a number of orders which were issued about Schenk's position, which became familiar to the members of the office.
Q What kind of orders?
A Orders came to the effect that Schenk was to work independ Court No. II, Case No. 4.ently and must not be ordered around by anybody within the WVHA.
Q You saw an order like that, did you?
A Yes.
Q Who signed it, and when did you see it?
A I believe it was signed by the Reichsfuehrer-SS himself.
Q And it said that the WVHA was not to give any orders to Schenk?
A It said that Schenk was independent of all orders and would receive his orders only through Himmler and Pohl.
Q How often did you see concentration camp commanders come to Tschentscher's office?
A. I did not know one single commandant of a concentration camp or see him even.
Q. So various commandants could have come to see Tschentscher through the office without your knowing it. Is that what you wish to say?
A. No, I don't wish to say that. Should the commandant of a concentration camp have come he probably would have introduced himself to me and told me, "I come because of" this or that, "and I wish to see Tschentscher," because I was sitting immediately next to Tschentscher and nobody could pass through without at least saying hello to me, introduce himself, and say briefly what he wanted to do.
Q. And do you say from your own knowledge that Tschentscher had no conferences with any concentration camp commandant?
A. I am not in a position to say so. I do not know. He could have had conferences of that sort without my seeing it in my office.
Q. Were you sitting in the same office with Tschentscher, or was it in an outer office? You said you were sitting right next to him.
A. I sat in the room just in front of his, and the entrance door to his office was in my room, actually.
Q. You told us that you didn't read any matters which were classified as secret, or any classification above secret. Is that right?
A. I saw some secret matters inasmuch as they concerned my field of tasks.
Q. What was your field of tasks?
A. First of all, the training kitchens, personnel and organizational problems of the troop food depots.
Q. You are in custody at the present time?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that because of your activities in Amtsgruppe B?
A. That is because I was a member of the Waffen-SS.
Q. It doesn't have anything to do with your activities in Amtsgruppe B? Not everyone in the Waffen-SS is under arrest.
A. No, but every officer in the Waffen-SS.
Q. That isn't true either. You don't know that you are under arrest because of your activities with Amtsgruppe B--especially B-I?
A. No, nobody told me that.
Q. You were a member of the Nazi Party and of the SS, is that right?
A. Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal, will you remove this witness?
(Witness excused).
DR. PRIBILLA (Counsel for the defendant Tschentscher):
If the Tribunal please, as to the next witness, may I ask for the Court's advice. This is Joseph Lindtaler; he was in the so-called auditing staff of W --correction B, and he was part of Office Group B in Office B-I. He was the official who made a great many trips to the various troop food depots in order to check up on the stocks; and who, therefore, knows everything there is to know about these depots.
He had no other knowledge because he was always on these trips. We have heard a good deal about these depots, their tasks and organization. But should the Tribunal feel that these questions have been adequately dealt with, I can do without that witness, or merely submit an affidavit signed by him.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it true that this witness proposes to testify about the distribution of food to the SS through the Army depots?
DR. PRIBILLA: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And that is all?
DR. PRIBILLA: A few questions have been asked about that subject, and I held this witness ready because he is the man who was on the spot in these various depots, checked up on everything and saw what was there particularly with reference to these army depots and the feeding of con centration camps.
He knows everything there is to know.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think the Tribunal is interested in, or concerned with, the feeding of the troops. Under the indictment, of course, we are interested in the manner of feeding concentration camp inmates, and if this witness can tell us anything about that, perhaps it would be well to call him. But to confine your questions to that particular field...
DR. PRIBILLA: Of course I held this witness ready to show you the "country". Namely, that the depots had nothing to do with feeding of concentration camps--which is what I wanted to examine him about.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, show us something that does have to do with feeding of concentration camp inmates. Does he know anything about that?
DR. PRIBILLA: He only knows the negative side, so to speak.
THE PRESIDENT: He just knows the people who didn't know anything about feeding concentration camps?
DR. PRIBILLA: He knows all these depots, every one of them; every man who was ever in charge of them, and he knows only too well whom these depots fed.
THE PRESIDENT: Does he know who fed the concentration camp inmates?
DR. PRIBILLA: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to cross-examine this witness, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Court, I think it might be a good plan for Counsel to submit an affidavit and then if Prosecution wishes to cross-examine him, we can call him for that purpose. I don't think that we would--but it is possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Doctor, if you will submit an affidavit as to what this witness does know, then we will determine whether it is of any interest to either the Prosecution or the Tribunal.
DR. PRIBILLA: I agree to that with the President. I only held this witness ready because he was a member of the auditing staff of "B", and I was not sure how important that auditing staff B was.
Thus I have reached my evidence on behalf of Tschentscher, and I would like the provision to reserve the right that in my document book I may submit a few documents and affidavits.
THE PRESIDENT: Of course, you will have that right.
DR. MAYER (Counsel for the defendant Kiefer): May it please the Tribunal, I am about to open the case of Kiefer. By permission of the Court I would like to call the defendant Kiefer to the witness stand on his own behalf.
THE PRESIDENT: Marshal will bring the defendant Kiefer to the witness stand.
MAX KIEFER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Please raise your right hand and repeat after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You may be seated.
BY DR. MAYER:
Q. Witness, may I remind you first of all to always wait until my question has been translated and speak slowly so that the interpreter can follow, and so that the translation is clear.
To begin, witness, will you please give us you first name.
A. Heinrich, Hubert, Max Kiefer; my first name is Max.
Q. When and where were you born?
A. I was born on the 15th of September, 1889 on the Lower Rhine, in Kempen.
Q. Will you describe to the Court your schools and the training which you went through?
A. I attended the secondary school and the high-school in my native village. I graduated in 1909, and then I studied architecture in Munich.
I stayed there for two terms. Then I went to the technical college in Aachen to do the same work. During my times of studies until 1910 I became a practicing architect by working as a pupil on a voluntary basis on big buildings sites with the Reich Railway Inspectorate in Cologne. Then also during my terms I made two large trips in order to study the history of architecture. I went to Italy, to France, Holland and Belgium. And the shortest of those trips lasted for six months.
In 1914 I was graduated as an architect and a city architect in Aachen. In August I was called up to do military service when the first World War broke out.
Q What did you do after you finished your professional training?
A I was in the army from 1914 to 1918 at the front. I was fighting on the western front with an infantry regiment. I was in all the big battles of that war on the western front. I was wounded three times. On the 1st December 1918 I was on the staff of the 185th brigade; and as such I resigned from the army. Then I began to work as a free-lance architect.
First of all I built a big settlement for miners in Palenberg, near Aachen. At the end of 1919 I went to a big building firm in order to learn the business of private firms; and there as the man in charge of building I built a city in Holland, near Limburg. This again was a large settlement with all the necessary public building--churches, schools, town hall, hospital, and so forth. In the following year I was in charge of the building of a large hospital in another place near Limburg in Holland. After its completion in the following year, in 1921, I joined the government of Aachen. There I took over the building of the new district court at a cost of two and a half million marks. I took over the office as office chief and was the architect in charge of that project. As the Reich Mark was being stabilized in 1923, this work was stopped.
Then I went to the building office in Kempen were from 1924 to 1927 I was a building consultant for that district. There again we planned cities, settlements, and the legal aspects of these things, and so on.
In that position I built a number of settlements. In 1927 my native Kempen offered me the planning and building of a large school, which I took over and for which purpose I had to leave my old job since I was not allowed to do both jobs at once. So in 1927 I established my own architectural office; and from 1927 to 1936 I worked as a free-lance architect. During all that period of time I specialized in the planning of cities and settlements; and I became interested merely in cities on the lower Rhine near Duesseldorf. I drew up the sites and plans and so forth. Then I also did research work about the very famous monuments on the lower Rhine; and the results were published in magazines or were given to the local archives.
In 1933 in the late spring of that year I received an order to plan and built a sports school for the Office of the Reich Sports Leader in Berlin. This was a school which was to be built in Garthow, a suburb of Berlin. I established a branch office in Berlin; and a second task was joined to my earlier tasks. I moved to Berlin in August of 1933; but I also maintained an office in my native Kempen near Duesseldorf where a colleague of mine deputized for me.
My activities as a free-lance architect were terminated on 1st September 1936, which was the date when I joined the Reich Air Ministry.
Q How was it that you joined the Reich Air Ministry?
A In the summer of 1936 a ministerial councillor, Loeffgen, of that Ministry approached me and said that in this junior ministry a department for settlement and dwelling questions was to be established. I knew Loeffgen from my time with the government in Aachen in 1921 to 1923 after which time onwards we had kept up both professional and personal contacts. He knew what I knew in the way of the planning of cities, and, he told me, when the Ministry was looking for a suitable man to put in charge of that department, that was the reason why he approached me.
He told me that in all probality a big task would come from the organization of the Luftwaffe and that he would recommended me urgently to interest myself in these things, even though for the time being I would have to do on less money than before as a small official.