small workshops, medium, and large enterprises. All of them were finally under the commercial management of a man called Bibow. The commercial management also looked after the administration of the Jewish Ghetto. How the competence was separated between the commercial manager and the administrator of the ghetto, I could not find out in that brief period of time.
In the individual enterprises all types of equipment were produced for the Wehrmacht, particularly clothing. Timber processing works were also there; also, the needs of the ghetto were met through the things which were produced there.
Q. What did you do, witness, in order to find out what the enterprises had as a value, and the question of the possible transfer of these enterprises to the DWB? Were you in the ghetto for a long time?
A. No, I only spent a few hours. After a brief description, I and the commercial manager and two Jewish guides had a discussion. Dr. Volk was present, too. He had taken part in the inspection. Later on, I looked at their books in the commercial department inasmuch as I could do that within a few hours. I found out that the commercial organization had been badly neglected. The conditions under which individual workers worked were good, and the places of work were entirely acceptable.
Q. How many enterprises were there?
A. I think roughly a hundred; it was a small town. I felt, however, that to take over all these enterprises, and particularly the transfer, would be utter nonsense. Volk and I, therefore, who shared my opinion, went to Posen and there I discussed the matter with two experts of the Reich Governor in the presence of Dr. Volk.
I might draw attention here to the file note made by Dr. Volk--
DR. FRITSCH: May it please the Court, this is in Document Book 19, Document Number 519, which is Exhibit 490, on page 62 of the German and page 54 of the English texts.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, did you advocate that the ghetto should be changed into a concentration camp?
A. I don't think you have put your question very well. After all, I had nothing to do with the fact of whether or not it should be changed. I could not advocate anything. I could not advise anybody to do it nor could I refuse. I said before that, as far as I know, Pohl told us that the Reichsfuehrer had ordered that the ghetto should be changed into a concentration camp. I was only concerned with the fact of whether I could report to Pohl that the enterprises should be taken over by the DWB.
From that point of view we had to discuss the problems in Posen.
Q. But according to the file note which you quoted yourself, you discussed points in the case of the ghetto being changed into a concentration camp?
A. Yes, the file note does mention such a point, but only from the point of view that the Reichsfuehrer actually and finally had ordered the ghetto to be changed, and that it should be carried out.
The whole file note really shows that Dr. Volk and I did not think it was a good idea to have the change carried out, as far as we were able to express it at all, because to say a thing like that clearly we were not allowed to do, of course.
Q. Will you tell us about the fears which you had? What were the reasons for the objection you felt?
A. Yes--
THE PRESIDENT: I think his reasons are set out in the document. Do you mean the reasons why he believed that the ghetto industry should not be taken over?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, Mr. President, but he believed he had other reasons also why he could not advocate these things - not only the reasons which he expressed here officially, but personal and intimate ones. Those are the reasons I want to hear about.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, you yourself made a note in your own handwriting on that trip, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct?
Q. Why did you make a remark in handwriting? Why did you not dictate it to your secretary?
A. It was not an official remark. I didn't want to involve the secretary here. The official remark was made by Volk - it is available here. I merely made a remark to refresh my memory for the time when I had to report to Pohl.
Q. Did you use that remark when you talked to Pohl?
A. Yes, when we had our discussion I certainly used that remark.
Q. Will you explain that briefly, please?
A. Certainly. I shall have to spend a little time on this.
Pohl told me when we were given our order to go to Litzmannstadt that the enterprises in the ghetto were not particularly profitable. For the question of the transfer, however, this did not matter too much, in view of the present military situation; the decisive point was to increase production. This aim had to be followed and achieved by suitable measures without taking into consideration possible financial risks.
Q. Well, if that is so, you need not have gone at all on your trip?
A. Oh, yes, I would, because I meanwhile found out about the security aspect of it all. After all, the thing was to become a concentration camp and I had my misgivings. Therefore, I addressed myself to Dr. Volk and asked him to give me his opinion. His personal attitude I knew very well. We discussed the point quite openly; I asked him to be frank, and he was. Volk did not hold back. He said above all there were legal offenses committed by the Gau - which is hinted at by the file note if you read between the lines. Now, although we were given not too many details, we felt we had to assume that here we had problems which could not be condoned from a human point of view.
I remember when Volk and I discussed the matter we used the expression: "It would be against all human reason."
The proposal on our way back to Berlin to go to Posen and inspect, which was not part of our order came from Volk. This is how we went there and tried to find out and did find out what the Gauleiter was really up to.
Q. These discussions in Posen or Litzmannstadt are being referred to by your remark in and writing in Volk's report?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, what did you report to Pohl?
A. I remember very well that I said this to Pohl: In all economic measures, and, particularly, in the case of this highly complex organization, one had to take into consideration the human element. Harsh measures were pointless and in the last analysis, production would not result from it.
Q. Pohl listened to that? Were you in a position to speak to him in that way?
A. Yes, the occasion did arise. I know with the utmost certainty that this was how it was reported. I was not alone. Pohl was with me and this improved the situation -
Q. Excuse me, you said "Pohl" was with you.
A. I am sorry, Volk. Volk was with me and I know that Pohl listened to these things once they had been reported. He became entirely accessible. He saw the point, and I believe also that as a result of Volk's and my trip the transfer of the enterprises did not take place. Everything remained as it was before.
Q. This becomes quite clear from the documents, Witness, now we can touch on the other point which you mentioned before. I am now speaking about the wages of inmates and compensation for inmate labor. Will you please give us the difference, first of all, between wages of inmates and compensation paid for inmate labor briefly?
A. Yes, by compensation for inmate labor I mean that sum of money which a manager pays for the labor done by inmates who have been allocated to him, and he pays that to the Reich.
By wages for inmates I mean that sum of money which an inmate receives for such work as he has done, or, at least, he is being credited with it.
Q. Was that the position when you joined? Were both terms firmly formulated?
A. No, not as far as I was concerned. I was a new man. Those terms became clear when I worked on the problems, when I did my work, which becomes clear from the documents. At first, the terms were still somewhat confused, but, whenever there is a mention of payment to the Reich by the enterprises, this means compensation, whereas when an inmate is paid, we have the term, "wages".
Q. Witness, was it usual in Germany, as far as concentration camps were concerned, for the camps to allocate inmates to enterprises as laborers, or was that the case also with any other Reich Department?
A. Yes, it was not a typical act. The criminal prisoners of the Ministry of Justice were also told to do work. They either did their work for the prison administration itself, or, through the administration of the prison, for outside firms.
Q. Witness, at this point I should like to draw your attention to the fact that it has been expressed here repeatedly that criminal prisoners cannot be compared to the inmates of concentration camps, because criminal prisoners had been sent to prison on the basis of a law for a crime which it has been proved they have committed, which was not the case, it is alleged, with concentration camp inmates. Can you say something about that from your own experience?
A. I said about that once before that the arrest and billeting of inmates in a concentration camp I had to regard as lawful for the reason that the arrest and committing to a camp was done on the basis of a legal regulation by law by officers of the Law. I must ask the Tribunal to take into consideration that every individual German could not inform himself about the legality of a law. I myself was not a legal expert and I had to assume that the laws issued by the legislature existed justifiably, which is the reason why I regarded concentration camp inmates as human beings who had been deprived of their freedom for a good reason.
Q. Is that still your opinion today?
A. No. I must confess that since I have seen the documents I have formed the certainty that immoral laws were created and that these laws were even abused, but I could not acquire that knowledge at the time and I may add here that all of us at that time worked to such an extent, for reasons of the deteriorating military situation that therefore, aside from our work, we could not sit down and deliberate quietly on these things. If I think about these things today. I am in the last analysis limited by every type of compulsion. I was driven on myself and I no longer had a will of my own. The military machine ran and ran. It ran at top speed and, if you wanted to jump off, you would be killed. It could no longer be stopped, certainly, not by a man like myself.
Q. Witness, you compared the inmates of concentration camps entirely to those criminal persons at the time, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any experiences in the field of labor allocation of inmates?
A. I cannot give you any details about that. All I can say is that concentration camp inmates, no less than criminal prisoners, were lent to the companies or firms to do some work and a group of firms, for instance, was the DWB, in this respect. As I said before, the firms had to pay compensation to the Reich, which I call compensation for inmate labor.
Q. Now, what were the directives according to which the compensation for inmate labor was drawn up?
A. As I see it, the administration of a concentration camp had to find out, first of all, how much the State had to pay for the inmate billeting, food, clothing, and so forth.
Then, in addition to those expenses, the inmate was put at the disposal of the firm and that additional sun of money should have been paid to the inmate. That is to say, the wages for inmates and the compensation were related to one another. The wages were part of the compensation for inmate labor. The wages were to be given to the inmate by the Reich and the compensation was given to the Reich by the manager.
Q. That is how you regarded matters when you started your work?
A. That is how I regarded it, yes.
Q. Now, how did it come about that you handled this matter at all? Was it part of your duties?
A. I hadn't been there for a long time, but in the auditing in my department, the regular auditing work, the expenses were an important point. As the responsible official chocking on these things, I had to inform myself somehow or other about the question of expenses and in order to become familiar with that field, I, in the beginning of 1944, told the manager of taxation matters, Dr. Wenner, to establish a calculation for liquidation and also analyse the profits.
Q. Witness, please take Document Bonk 15 and look at Document 527, which is Exhibit 408 on page 19 of the English text. On page 11 of the original there is a remark dated 15 January 1944, reference liquid funds of the W enterprises. Have you found the page?
A. Yes, Yes, I have.
Q. Did you give the order to have this remark made?
A. As I can see now, on 15 December 1943 I gave the order to have a list of liquid funds worked out.
Q. This document 527 also bears a remark called Analysis of Profits, how to put the W enterprises on a sound basis. This is the document which precedes the document I just mentioned. It is on page 19 of the German Book. Do you have the Document Book?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What is this all about. Was this matter to do with wages, compensation?
A. Yes, that is part of the original points. Here we have the analysis of profits which I mentioned. It was my intention, which was only a natural thing to do, I wanted to be informed as to how matters stood in the economic enterprises which I had to audit.
Q. Did you agree to the propositions which are mentioned in these documents, and what were these propositions about?
A. To speak first of the list of liquid funds. That list shows first of all, by contrasting active and passive items on page 1 of the Document, that this concern was, on the whole, not liquid. It not have sufficient funds -- in other words, it did not have any longterm capital.
Q. Just a moment, witness. Where did these credits come from?
A. These credits came from banks, with short notice or long notice, and it included the Reich credit of thirty millions which I mentioned before, and which could also not be regarded as a long-term credit. This resulted in the fact that short term credits were invested in the W enterprises, when you only compars the basic capital of sixty millions with the capital.
Q. Witness, we are still talking about wages and compensation. I don't want to hear too much about the other matters. In analyzing profits, inmate labor was also mentioned. Is that correct?
A. Yes, quite right.
Q. What can you tell us about that?
A. I said, of course I knew that W enterprises employed inmates. In this analysis of profits by Dr. Wenner I came across, for the first time, the fact that a correct handling of inmate labor from the point of view of cost had not been done. That is how I came across that problem. By that fact I then came across compensation for inmates -that is to say, that sum of money which was paid by the enterprises to the Reich for the work done by the inmates. And, therefore, perforce I had to come across the question, "Does the inmate get paid or not?"
Q. Any other factors in this problem?
A. Yes, yes, there were other factors. For instance, I heard for the first time from the analysis of profits that the Reich gives certain facilities without any money -- buildings, for instance, and so forth, particularly SS personnel; but, of course, there were also other factors as well.
Q. I don't want to go into that question too deeply. I realize that when you analyzed profits and drew up a list of liquid funds you were not only concerned with inmates and general problems. But here we are only interested how it was that you had to deal with the question of wages and compensation.
A. Yes, I had to find out that the Reich received money for the work done by inmates, and I also found out that the inmates themselves did not receive any money from the Reich.
Q. Perhaps that is slightly difficult to understand. You are now speaking of the Reich. You had made this list of liquid funds for private companies?
A. Yes, quite so. But, as I explained before, the wages of the inmates had to be paid by the Reich, and I believed, therefore, as I saw it at the time, that I should exercise my influence for the inmate to be paid in cash because the compensation was paid quite clearly by the company.
Q. What did you do when you found that out?
A. I reported to Pohl, and I suggested to him to be allowed to work on the whole problem because it was my opinion that by an orderly handling of this matter the companies themselves would become financially more sound.
Q. Were you here guided by ideas to the advantage of inmates?
A. Yes, I did. Perhaps I will be misunderstood - if I affirm your question - but it really was like that. I did not think it was justified for a man deprived of his freedom to work and not be paid in cash.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will show that the defendants Bobbermin and Kiefer are absent from this session of this Court by leave of the Tribunal.
We will take the usual recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, we were talking about the inmate wages and at the end you stated that you did not think the fact justified that an inmate who had lost his freedom and had to work should be paid. You didn't think that correct. Wasn't that the sense of your answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that matter develop further without any difficulties and, if so, how did it develop?
A. Great difficulties ensued. However, Pohl, when I finished my report, immediately stated that he was ready to have these things examined. With the report which I had given Pohl, my task would have been finished, and he would have taken the necessary steps and initiated investigations and he would have transferred them to another agency, possibly a business manager of one of those companies who had to make the payments or he possibly would have transferred that job to the Prokurist of the DWB. However, as he apparently at the moment did not find any other man and as I had told him the whole thing on my own initiative, he asked me to deal with that matter further.
Q. You mean, therefore, that as far as the departmental work was concerned the matter would have been settled with the suggestion that you had given him, that is, by giving him the report?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. What, however, did you actually do?
A. I gladly accepted that job; I can add that. However, when I carried out my work, I had to differentiate between the work which referred to the wages for the inmates and the second one, which referred to the payment of the inmates, the compensation.
Q. All right, we shall start with the wages. Take a look at Document Book 15. This Document Book has seventeen documents which were introduced and which refer to the new wage scale of the inmates as of 1 April 1944. Then we have Document No.568 in Document Book 4, Exhibit No. 117. I do not want to refer to every one of these documents, witness, and I would appreciate it if you would deal with the entire matter as briefly as possible.
A. I shall endeavor to do that, but I have to start from the historical point of view.
Himmler had issued an order, I don't know upon whose suggestion, that the compensation of the inmates was to be adapted to the wage scale of the free civilian workers, insofar as they were working for the free economy.
Q. Witness, apparently you are now referring to Document Book 15, Document 530, Exhibit 411, which is on Page 45 of the German and Page 34 of the English text. This is a file note by Weber; is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct. I have this file note before me now.
Q. Did you know that file note before?
A. No, I did not, but I would like to add that I worked together with Weber on this matter, and I discussed the whole thing with him. That file note refers to the order which was issued by Himmler.
Q. In Staff W you did not see that file note, did you?
A. No, but as I stated before, I discussed these things with Weber.
Q. This order issued by Himmler actually complied with your own attempts to deal with those matters?
A. No, that is not quite correct, because in the resulting execution of that order I saw a great danger because in the SS Economic Enterprises the wages for the compensation of inmates were definitely much lower than those of the civilian workers. They were much, much lower. I have already pointed out that the companies, practically speaking, were not very solvent.
Q. Couldn't you actually assimilate the wage scales to each other?
A. No, they could not very well be adapted to each other all of a sudden.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Fritsch, we aren't interested at all in how much the industries paid the Reich for inmate labor. That is not involved here, and, inasmuch as it is admitted that the inmates themselves were not paid, what difference does it make what the wage scale was? We are wondering whether this long inquiry in an attempt to fix the wage scale in proportion to the free labor, whether that makes any difference.
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, but, Your Honor, the idea is this: There are documents here which show Himmler's official attitude with reference to that question. All I wanted to clear up was whether the witness complied with these orders by Himmler. However, I wanted to deal with those natters only very briefly, because I think the only important part is how far the defendant had anything to do with wages.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, would it make any difference whether the defendant followed Himmler's order or not, because the inmate did not get any money as a result of Himmler's order. The Reich got all the additional money.
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, in these documents, the terms "inmate compensation" and "inmate wages" are all mixed up. I thought it to be my duty to differentiate between those two terms.
THE PRESIDENT: We are not confused by the two terms. We understand the difference between them. The fact is that there weren't any inmates wages; isn't that true?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes, but now I want to clear up the question of how far this is in connection with the activity of the defendant Baier.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I don't think it makes abit of difference whether he was getting more or less money from the industries for the Reich.
DR. FRITSCH: No, Your Honor, the amount is not the decisive thing for me. I, too, think that this is immaterial, but the only problem is whether the defendant endeavored within the scope of that activity to obtain higher wages for the inmates. That, in my opinion, is of great importance and the only important thing for the defendant.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, you are going to attempt to show that he tried to got actual wages for the inmates which they would receive in money?
DR. FRITSCH: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you don't claim that he ever succeeded?
DR. FRITSCH: No, he did not succeed in doing so. However, I did want to show why he was not able to succeed. I could ask this question in a very simple manner, and he could probably answer immediately, and the entire matter could be taken care of.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, without going through the seventeen documents that are in Book 15, if you will ask him, "Did you attempt to get some money for the inmates which they would actually receive?" he'll say "Yes". Then, "Did you succeed?" He'll say, "No", and we can close the book. Do you want to do that?
DR. FRITSCH: I would like to point out, Your Honor, that I had just made the statement that I shall not refer to all those documents in detail. I just said that before.
THE PRESIDENT: But I'm afraid the witness will.
DR. FRITSCH: No, I shall see to it that he doesn't.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, good.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, now, you followed the entire conversation, didn't you? I am going to ask you the following question: After the investigation which you made into the solvency of the firm and into the solvency of the firm and into the computation of the profits, did you find out after you had done that that the inmates did not receive any wages, and did you try to obtain wages for those inmates?
A. Yes, that was the case. However, please let me make a very short sentence and let me point out a few things which refer to the wages. I shall make only one sentence. A too large increase in wages for the inmates would have had a very dangerous influence on the business manager to the extent that when he paid the wages, he would be paying more than the enterprise could actually afford to pay, and therefore, they would reduce the personnel strength, and to that extent the compensation of the inmates, according to my opinion, did have something to do with the inmate himself. A clever manager wouldn't do that. In order to give you an example--However I have already made more than two sentences; I'm sorry, but may I please give you that as an example?
Now, if the enterprise has to pay five marks, and the enterprise can only pay three marks, and the business manager would like to make a profit -- after all, every business manager wants to show that the whole work is not done for nothing -- then you have the danger that the people will be made to work harder in order to make the profit. That is all I wanted to say.
Q. Witness, in this connection, in order to clear up this complex of wages, I would appreciate it if you would look at Document Book No. 1, Document 1577, Exhibit No. 15, Page 93 of the German and 77 of the English. This is your affidavit. You state in your affidavit: "In any case, special scales should be fixed for the inmates." At the end of the following paragraph it is stated that the fact that the inmates did not receive any wages was an exploitation of them. Was that your opinion at the time when you found out about those things, when you came across those problems?
A. Yes, that corresponds to my attitude towards the entire problem, and it runs along the same line of my work which I did with reference to those wages.
Q. Witness, according to that the free food and free billeting, etc., which any man who is in captivity receives, and the bonuses that the man received, according to your opinion were not sufficient?
A. No. That was the reason why I dealt with those things.
Q. I may now leave this entire problem. I would appreciate it if you would take another document book in your hands, which is Document Book No. XV, Document No. 517, Exhibit 86, Page 56 of the German Document Book and 48 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: What book?
DR. FRITSCH: XV, your Honor. It is on Page 48 of the English Document Book.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that document number -
DR. FRITSCH: Your Honor, that document, No. 517, is contained there twice. This is No. 517 which I am talking about. I have Document Book No. XV before me, but it is also contained in Document Book No. IV for a second time.
Q. (By Dr. Fritsch) Witness, I do not intend to ask you about the question as to whether the inmate compensation compares with the inmage wages. All I want you to tell me is the following: This document in Document Book No. XV refers to camp regulations for inmates, is that correct?
A. That term is misleading, and as I have found it here I must say that it is not correct either. According to my recollection, Pohl used that term at the time and immediately after that I noted that term in my notebook as I always did during the conferences. The way it should read should be "Management Regulations".
DR. FRITSCH: I took a look at this document, your Honor, for the simple reason that both documents as such contain approximately the same thing. There is a large differences between the two in spite of that.
In Document Book No. XV a distinct addition was left away which is "Wage Scale". That term, "Wage Scale" is contained in the document which is in Document Book No. 1V. Otherwise the impression might arise that the defendant had compiled a camp regulation for inmates.
Q. (By Dr. Fritsch) Witness, would you please answer my last question put to you: Did you succeed in doing anything while attempting to get your ideas through, and if you didn't, why didn't you succeed in obtaining wages for the inmates?
A. I am afraid I have to say no; I didn't succeed in doing so. My attempts to obtain wages for them which become evident from the notes here and this also corresponded with Pohl's attitude and ideas, because Pohl, as is stated in this document, and I know that for sure, pointed out to me that the charwomen, who were to work in the organization, should receive wages. They were the lowest-paid class of people. But the entire matter was a Reich matter. I started the thing, but I never completed it. Then there was an additional thing that that work pleased me very much because there were social problems behind it, but unfortunately a short while after I had written down these notes, approximately in April or May, I was relieved of further dealing with that task. At the time it was given to a man named Moser. His name was Moser. I couldn't tell you anything else about the development of it, because I had no connections and contacts with Moser.
Q. Witness, from dealing with this matter, didn't you see the necessity for yourself to go into a protective custody camp and to see the thing on the spot and to be able to get into a very close contact with the inmates?
A. No. First of all the visit of a concentration camp by me would have started a large machine working before I could have received the permission to visit a camp. Apart from that I couldn't find out anything special in the protective custody camp because I heard through Pohl all those things on an economic basis, and there was nothing else left for me to deal with, since there was nothing but a computation system which worked in an orderly manner.
Q. Witness, I would appreciate it if you would speak much slower, and make a short pause.
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Did you ever see any inmates at work in one of the enterprises?
A. Yes, I did, for instance, at Flossenbuerg while preliminary work was carried out there for the construction of planes. According to my recollection this work dealt with the construction of a fighterplane. The work was carried out in large halls which were very well ventilated and air conditioned, and the work was strongly mechanized, that it, it was done with machines. There was no difference between a German civilian worker and an inmate worker except, of course, for the clothes.
Q. Were you ever in a subterranean factory at any time?
A. No, I was never in a subterranean factory.
Q. Do you know anything about the working hours of the inmates?
A. I know, for instance, that in Flossenbuerg the workers worked in three shifts, that is to say, every shift consisted of eight hours and sixteen-hour recesses, I would say.
Q. Did you see anything disadvantageous about the food of the inmates?
A. Of course at the time I only walked through the halls. I took a look at the work they were doing. However, during that visit I was not able to see anything or observe anything about bad feeding conditions.
Q. Witness, a few questions concerning the extermination program of the Jews. You do know the document which contains Himmler's speech which he held at Posen. Did you find out anything about that speech at the time?
A. No, I only heard about the speech in the documents here.
Q. From 1933 to 1935 you were a member of the Party, weren't you? Did you know anything about the attitude of the Party toward the Jews?
A. Of course I didn't know the attitude of the Party toward the Jews. However, already at the beginning of my examination I pointed out that I did not take certain points of the Party program seriously particularly not at the beginning. I did recognize, however, as time passed, that the program was to eliminate the Jews from leading positions. Personally I was not interested in these measures. However, that the Jews were going to be exterminated, gassed and killed in all sorts of ways, I never assumed, and everyone who knows me will also know that one could not possibly expect me to believe such things.
Q. Witness, you have stated that apart from your activity in the administrative school in 1938, you were never again in a protective custody camp. When did you first find out that gas chambers existed in the concentration camps for the extermination of human beings?
A. That also only became known to me after the collapse. I only found out about it through the newspapers and radio or from the documents.
Q. You heard about the medical experiments, didn't you? In this connection a document was introduced here, and as far as I can see it is the only document in this connection, namely the document concerning the manufacture of polygal. We don't need the document, Witness. What did you have to do with it?
A. The Duetsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. was part of the DWB with its main office in Prague. This firm produced pharmaceutical products. I believe it was early in 1944 when one day the Defendant Pohl wanted me to come and see him at his office. There was a gentleman in his office. I later on found out that it was Sievers who is now a defendant before Military Tribunal No. 1. Pohl informed me that Sievers wanted to have a drug manufactured. Whether the name "polygal" was already mentioned at the time I really couldn't tell you. Pohl, in any case, asked me to inform the business management of the Deutsche Heilmittel G.m.b.H. that they should contact Sievers for the manufacture of that product.