A. I did not know anything about the concentration camp ones.
Q. What kind of medical experiments did you hear about?
A. If you regard the experiment or the work done in the laboratory of Dr. Vaernet of the German Drug Company G.m.b.H. as experiment, then I am bound to admit that I knew about that. But I did not know that he also made experiments in concentration camps.
Q. You didn't see a letter by Dr. Vaernet in August 1944 - specifically the 31st of August 1944 - saying that experiments would be carried out in concentration camp Buchenwald? You don't recall that?
A. I am afraid I cannot recall that.
Q. You don't remember putting your initial on such a letter?
A. I cannot remember it.
Q. Did you talk to Baier at any time about these medical experiments?
A. I don't know that I have done so. All I knew was that the German Drug Company G.m.b.H. was not handled by me, and that Dr. Vaernet had a laboratory there in Prague where he worked. I did not bother about this matter otherwise.
Q. You don't remember seeing a letter from Vaernet to Pohl stating that, because of air attacks in Buchenwald, that the experiments would be postponed for two weeks? Does that refresh your recollection?
A. I cannot remember that, I am afraid, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q. And you didn't hear about any other kind of medical experiments?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear about any acts of violence of the SS, any violent acts, destruction of property, or deportation of Jews, or any of that nature?
A. No, I didn't hear about these things.
Q. Didn't hear about any-
A. That is to say, if you want to come back to what was know as the Crystal Sunday of 1938. But there, of course, I maintain - and all of us do - that the SS did not participate, which the IMT bore out as well.
Q. As far as you know-- Well, I think you are misinformed about what the IMT found, witness. But it is your testimony that you did not know that the SS participated? As far as you knew, the SS did not participate? Is that your testimony?
A. I know nothing about it. I was in Berlin all the time. That is to say, I did not go to the East, and I fought only when the Eastern front was on German Reich territory.
Q. You didn't see Jews rounded up in the streets in Berlin, the kind of scenes that Dr. Hohberg told us about?
A. I did not see it. All I heard was what the witness said here, that Jews were transported on furniture vans.
Q. You didn't hear about that before; that was the first you heard about it?
A. That Jews were sent away I heard; we were told that Jews were being resettled in the East.
Q. Did you hear that the SS had anything to do with it?
A. It is impossible for the SS to have had anything to do with it because the Gestapo did it, which was an agency of the Reich -- not the SS.
Q. You didn't hear anything about the Race and Resettlement Office taking a part in it?
A. The Race and Resettlement Main Office -- I don't know whether that office had anything to do with it. I don't believe so.
Q. What did you think the purpose of that office was? What functions did it have, Race and Resettlement?
A. In my opinion - which is based on a very superficial knowledge it had the following task. First of all, to give permission for marriages when an SS man wanted to get married, because there we have the questionnaire handed in if and when you want to get married, and there you must make all these statements. And the Office for Settlement, as I see it.
had the purpose to have, on the fringes of the Reich, or whenever Germany conquered new territories in the war, to organize settlements there. That is what I think the Race and Settlement Main Office did. But I don't know very much about it.
Q. Settlement for whom, in the occupied territories?
A. Settlement for the Germans.
Q. Witness, the concentration camp inmates were working in the WVHA Building in Berlin, were they not?
A. Yes, I saw ten or fifteen.
Q. They could be seen working there almost any time that you were there, is that not true?
A. Not all the time. Only after the air raids, if I remember correctly.
Q. They could be seen, would you say, on two or three days a week in the WVHA Building?
A. Yes. Yes, one could see them.
Q. And do you know what concentration camp they came from?
A. Not very precisely. Anyway they were accommodated in Berlin, as somebody told me, in some house in some street. I assume they came from the concentration camp Oranienburg Camp, but I am not quite sure.
Q. Did you know about concentration camp inmates being hanged in the courtyard of the WVHA Building?
A. No.
Q. Never heard about it?
A. No.
Q. Witness, will you look at Document Book XV, turning to another matter, and at page 48 of the German, Exhibit 413, page 37 of the English No-515. There is a list there of industries employing concentration camp inmates.
A. I am afraid I haven't got the document.
Q. Do you have it?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of any other industries under W-1 where inmate labor was employed at any time?
A. I cannot recall that.
Q. Were there any other industries or work locations or plants of any kind under W-II that employed concentration camp inmates other than Golleschau?
A. I don't know, but I don't believe so.
Q. Will you look under W-VIII. Do you know of any other locations where concentration camp inmates were employed other than those listed here?
A. I know very little about W-VIII. I didn't even know that these enterprises had inmates. I am unable to answer that question. I really don't know.
Q. You didn't know that inmates were working at Wowelsburg?
A. I heard about that, yes, but Boddecken near Paderborn and Sachsenheim near Verden, I did not even know that they were part of the office.
Q. How many trips, witness, did you make to Switzerland?
A. I went to Switzerland four times, perhaps of five.
Q. And during what period of time was that?
A. I made the first trip in 1942.
Q. How long did you stay?
A. A week at the most. I had several orders to look after every time.
Q. And when was the second trip made?
A. In 1943, I also went to Switzerland. When and how often I don't remember. All I know is that in 1944 I went twice to Switzerland.
Q. And how long did you stay on the occasion in 1944?
A. In 1944 I believe I crossed the frontier on the 11th of July and recrossed it on the 18th and towards the end of October I went back once more for about a week.
Q. And is it your testimony that only on one occasion while you were in Switzerland did you hear about concentration camps in Germany?
A. That newspaper report, which I immediately told Pohl about because I regarded that as my duty, that is all I read in Switzerland.
Q. That's all your road in Switzerland, heard or read in Switzerland, about concentration camps?
A. Yes, I only talked to Swiss people.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any redirect?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, is the Syndikus, the legal expert, an employee who handle the legal matters of an enterprise? Is that a correct definition?
A. Yes, he can work on legal matters, but he need not do so. The term "Syndikus" in German is purely a title. I know several syndici who know nothing about legal matters.
Q. But as a rule one usually talks about one who is a legal expert, doesn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it a legally defined title?
A. No.
Q. Why did you have the title?
A. I had another title before, when I was working in peacetime, But I could not keep it up, because I would be called up and drafted to work on economic matters. For that reason, I told Pohl I should have a title. I did not know what I could call myself in the telephone directory for my telephonic address, and, therefore, I called myself a Syndikus. That title was commonly objected to by many people, because it is a title such as Pohl's attorney had stated here, was used by the trade unions before 1933 for their legal experts.
Q. You were asked on cross examination whether you had made the request to leave the WVHA or the economic services of the SS. Was there any possibility for you to make such a request?
A. I was not allowed to make an official request.
Q. Why were you not allowed to do that?
A. Because, first of all, Himmler had forbidden anything of the sort. Too, Pohl during an official occasion said, "Who tries again to be transferred to the front, his application will be thrown into the wastepaper basket.
Who is going to the front I decide and nobody else." One morning when Pohl was in a good temper I asked him to go to the front and this happened on several occasions and when I did not get away with it, I told him one day that I would be ashamed of myself later on before my children when everybody had been at the front and I had not. That took effect. Pohl let me go at last. It probably was because I was so tied down in my office that I could hardly walk around when Pohl was in the building.
Q. Was your service with the WVHA regarded as a military service?
A. It was regarded as a military service, yes.
Q. Did you therefore have the possibility to pick and choose your activity within the military service?
A. No.
Q. I shall now talk about Document NO-1952, which is Exhibit 606. Have you got the document?
A. May I have the number once more?
Q. This is a letter of 30 July 1943. Have you got it?
A. Yes, I have got it.
Q. Were we concerned here with the allocation of inmates?
A. No.
Q. What was the subject matter of this letter?
A. Incidental expenses for the establishment of huts for the inmates.
Q. Is it correct that with regard to the payment of the expenses for huts for inmates a dispute arose between Bohemia and Office Group D?
A. Yes.
Q. Was the decision of the question as to who was to pay the expenses part of your duties?
A. No.
Q. Whose decision was it?
A. In the last instance it was Pohl's.
Q. Did you have to handle this question?
A. I was given the order to approach Office D-II with a letter, by Pohl.
Q. Who handled the expense side of the establishment of inmate huts?
A. As I remember, Maurer, because the letter shows the initials D-II.
Q. In other words, your whole activity in this matter consisted of the fact that you passed on a decision by Pohl to the export concerned, as a messenger?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you were asked the question of your handling matters concerning the wages for inmates. That question you answered in the negative, and when you wanted to give your answers, you were cut short. Please give us the reasons now why you answered in the negative. You wanted to refer to the document from which it becomes clear that you did not handle the wages of inmates?
A. The suggestions as to how much the inmates should be paid were submitted to me by Mr. Baier for my information, on that note which I initialed after I came back from an official trip. To handle the wages for inmates another legal expert was to be called in. He was the Office Chief of A-III, Dr. Salpeter. This becomes clear from Document NO-517, Volume XV, on page 57 of the German document book. I believe it is Exhibit No. 86 but I am not quite sure. I shall quote:
Q. I gave you my document book before. Go on and quote.
A. I shall quote. This is what Baier said: "Furthermore, Loerner and Oberfuehrer Dr. Salpeter are to be called in." A legal expert had already been called in, or was to be called in, and that was Dr. Salpeter. I had nothing to do with wages for inmates.
Q. Then Document NO-3769 was discussed. No. 607. It concerned the clearing treasury. Please state very briefly what that fund was.
A. This clearing treasury, or check-off, was an insurance enterprise. Every enterprise which employed inmates or used inmates had to pay in a certain sum of money. Now, if no inmates were supplied by the concentration camps and therefore the enterprise suffered a loss thereby because the expense and overhead of the enterprise continued, the enterprise could apply to the clearing treasury for adjustment, that this loss should be made good.
Q. Did you at any time handle any matters of this clearing treasury?
A. No.
Q. Under whom was this clearing treasury?
A. Chief of W, or Dr. Wenner.
Q. I show you how and ask you to turn to Document NO-3793, Exhibit 582, and NO-4073, which is Exhibit No. 583. These are two documents which are concerned with the Slate Oil Company. How many Slate Oil Companies existed?
A. There were two such companies.
Q. Will you please give us the names of those two companies?
A. The German Slate Oil, GmbH (Deutsche Schieferoel, GmbH), and the Oil Slate Research Company. I don't know whether it was a GmbH or an AG.
Q. What company had already started its activities?
A. The Oil Slate Research Company.
Q. What part of whose concern was this company?
A. It did not belong to any concern. It was under the Reich Offices for Economical Construction, and the Reich Offices for Economical Construction in its turn was under the agency of the Four Year Plan.
Q. Was the Oil Slate Research Company a subsidiary company of DWB?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who the partners of that company were?
A. No.
Q. Were you a partner of that company?
A. No.
Q. What was the purpose of this Oil Slate Research Company?
A. It was to test the patent whether you could gain oil from German slate. It was to establish a factory and operate that production for two years.
Q. Did that Oil Slate Research Company employ inmates in order to solve that problem?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the other company?
A. The German Slate Oil Company GmbH.
Q. What was the task of that company?
A. That company was to take the works from the Oil Slate Research Company after two years, after the patent had been tested and the plant was running.
Q. Who were the partners of that company?
A. Pohl was the first trustee, and I had to take over because Loerner was not available.
Q. Did that company start its work?
A. No, it did not even open any books. It did nothing at all. I said yesterday it was sort of a cloak, which has been translated by shares. It was quite wrong. By cloak we mean the establishment of a legal body which no longer actually does any work, or which never has done any work.
Q. Did the Oil Slate Research Company GmbH employ inmates?
A. No.
Q. Then you described yesterday the incident about the epidemic. Where did it break out?
A. I believe it had been in Erzingen in Wuerttemberg. It occurred with the Oil Slate Research Company. Not with a company belonging to DWB.
Q. Then following that up you were asked the question, after you had discussed the epidemic, that you had an important position in the Slate Oil Company and you answered the question in the negative. What do you mean by that?
A. By that I meant the Oil Slate Research Company, because the German Slate Oil Company GmbH did not exist at any time, did not exist, so, therefore, I could not have any important position with that company either.
Q. Therefore, your answer was correct, and you still maintain it?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you tell the Court why you became a partner with the Slate Oil Company GmbH, which did not do any work at that time and which in particular did not employ any concentration camp inmates?
A. The "dummy" (strawman) for these things was Loerner.
Q. Excuse me for one moment. Why did you have to have a "dummy" (strawman) at all?
A. According to the GmbH law you have to have two partners at least. Excuse me a moment, I have not finished yet.
Q. Please continue.
A. Once you have entered a company in the registry, one partner can sell his share to the other partner. The company thereby becomes a one man enterprise. This is the usual thing to do under German commercial law in order to by-pass the regulations that you have to have two partners. The highest Supreme Court of the Reich Court, the German "Reichsgericht", has acknowledged this process as legitimate.
Q. Is it correct that the companies of the DWB concern really became a one man show.
A. Well, in the final analysis they were a one man show. Pohl wanted that. Pohl stood up for the Fuehrer principle, even in the economic life, and for this reason Dr. Salpeter made these suggestions to him. He did not only want to ride the military horse, but he also wanted to ride the commercial law horse, for which reason the DWB GmbH in the final analysis was a one man show. The sole partner was Pohl as its trustee or Fuehrer Principle.
Q. Did you pay in the sum of five thousand marks, which was entered as capital there from your own private property?
A. No.
Q. Do you know who paid this money in at all?
A. I have no idea. I assume the Reich. The Reich Exchequer. That does not mean the exchequer of Office Group A but that which was in Pohl's office. Pohl had certain Reich funds at his disposal for these smaller things.
Q. Is it, therefore, correct to say that only formally you became a partner of the Slate Oil Company GmbH in order to observe the regulations through the by-passing of the regulations of the German commercial law?
A. That is quite correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will recess until 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345 hours.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours, 30 July 1947.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 30 July 1947).DR. VOLK - Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) The Marshal:
Persons in the Court room take your seats, please.
The Tribunal is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS:
Dr. Gawlik just called my attention to the fact that I had not given an Exhibit number to the trade register certificate of the German Schiefer-Oil Company. I will mark that as Prosecution Exhibit No. 620. No, it hasn't been translated, your Honor. I will have that done.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, I am now going to hand that document to you. It is Exhibit No. 620, and in order to correct the record, please read to us the list from page 3.
A List of the partners of the Schiefer-Oil Limited Company. Name, status; DWB an enterprise with limited liability. Below that syndicus Dr. Leo Volk; then we have the DWB with limited liability 95,000 Reichsmarks, Syndicus Dr. Leo Volk, Berlin, 5000 Reichsmarks.
Q Thank you, that is sufficient.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q (By Dr. Gawlik) That was the company that had not even taken up its activity at all, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, besides these two companies there was an assignment of which Pohl was in charge with regard to the Schieferoel Company and the production of slate oil?
A Yes; that is correct. Pohl had been ordered by Himmler to take care, as plenipotentiary of the production of slate oil in order to supply the Waffen-SS and the Army at home with oil. In the year 1944, after the plot which took place in July, Himmler had become the Commander in Chief of the Army at home. That becomes evident from Document 3893, and I quote: "In consideration of the fact that the Reichsfuehrer-SS has appointed Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl for the supplying of the Waffen-SS and the Army at home with oil produced from oil slate, and had made Pohl personally responsible for the production of slate oil."
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Did you say this company was the one which never operated, Deutsche Schieferoel-Gesellschaft?
A Yes, your Honor; that is correct.
Q And this was an entirely different company than the other?
A The other company was the Oil Slate Research Company.
Q That was a company which was trying to find the process for making oil out of shale?
A Yes.
Q It was only a research company, a scientific company?
A It was a research company, and at the same time, in connection with this, it was a production company. At that time we agreed that a production company would incur severe losses since the production was in its early stages. As far as the production of oil from the slate was concerned, it was still in its very first stages.
Q Well then, this second company in which you were described as syndikus never produced any oil?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A No, never, your Honor.
Q Did it employ any workers?
A No.
Q Well, the workers that are described in the document, and the difficulties about the weather and the earth slipping, you know which document I mean?
A Yes, your Honor, I do.
Q Those were workers for the research company?
A Yes, these workers were employed by the Slate-Oil Research Company, and Dr. Sennewald was in charge of it. His name has been mentioned here in one of the documents. He was the collaborator of Professor Krauch.
Q Were you connected in any way officially with the research company?
A No.
Q Was your name in the official papers of the Research Company like this (indicating)?
A No, my name was never mentioned there at all. I did not hold any position there.
Q And that was a Reich enterprise, was it not?
A Yes, it was an enterprise owned by the Reich. It was subordinated to the Reich Office for Economic Development. That was an agency of the Four-Year Plan, which was subordinated to Hermann Goering.
Q And with that you had no connection yourself?
A No, I had no connection with that whatsoever.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't the whole program include ten oil companies that never produced oil?
THE WITNESS: I didn't hear the translation, your Honor.
(Translation repeated.)
THE WITNESS: I believe there were ten companies, your Honor. All of them belonged to the Oil-Slate Research Company.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q In connection with this question I want to show you once more Court No. II, Case No. 4.Document NO-3901. It is Exhibit 608.
Do you have that document before you?
A Yes.
Q This is a file note about the contract. In what capacity did Pohl participate in that discussion?
A He participated as the plenipotentiary for the supply of the Waffen-SS and the Army at home with oil slate.
Q Who was Dr. Sennewald?
A Dr. Sennewald was a plant manager, and he was the commissioner of Professor Krauch for the Oil-Slate Research Company.
Q Who was Captain von Kruedener?
A Captain von Kruedener was in the staff of the Reich Commissioner for the Gasoline Supply, Geilenberg. He wore an air force uniform. He was the liaison officer to Pohl. Just what he did in detail, I don't know.
Q Who was SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Jacobi?
A SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Jacobi was an officer on the staff of Pohl. Later on he was - later on, after two years, he was to enter the Oil Slate Company. However, he was not to be an executive there.
Q And in what capacity did you participate in that conference?
A Pohl wanted me to attend the conference so that I could take care of the record.
Q Who was responsible for the transfer of inmates to the Oil Slate Research Company?
A That was Office Group D, Maurer. Furthermore, in the file plan of Office Group D which has been submitted here by the Prosecution, in one of the documents, and among the firms there we have the Oil-Slate Research Company. That is a fact which shows to us that this company operated and that it received inmates.
Q And when this epidemic broke out with the Oil-Slate Research Company, who would have been competent for the measures which had to be taken?
A The Oil-Slate Research Company immediately should have turned Court No. II, Case No. 4.to Office Group D. They should not have turned to D-II, but Office D-III.
They should have turned to Lolling. However, they turned to Dr. Hoffmann instead, and as I have already stated in my cross-examination, here we are not concerned with clarifying the field of competence, but we had to take action. That is why he requested me to immediately try to get an appointment for him with Pohl. I did that. The man who furnished one truckload of drugs was SS-Gruppenfuehrer Blumenreuter. I thought of the name later on. At the moment he is at liberty.
Q Did you have the right to make decisions about the transfer of inmates to the Oil-Slate Research Company? I repeat the question. Did you have any right to make decisions about the transfer of inmates to the Oil-Slate Research Company?
A No.
Q Could you have prevented their assignment?
A No.
Q In connection with this document you were asked by the Prosecution whether you had ordered Sommer to send seventy-nine guards to that locality. You answered this question in the negative, and then you were trying to add something.
A It was late in the evening, approximately between seven and eight. The adjutant was not in his office any more. I myself went into the antechamber of Pohl, and I wanted to tell the adjutant that I was leaving. Pohl saw me and he told me, "Dr. Volk, seventy-nine guards have to be sent immediately to Erzingen. Please make a phone call to Office Group D at Oranienburg. This must be done immediately." Then I returned to my office, and then I made a long-distance call to Oranienburg. However, nobody was in the office any more at Oranienburg, and I was only able to talk to Hauptsturmfuehrer Sommer. I was able to talk to him. Sommer told me that he was not competent for that order. I told him that the matter was urgent and that he should accept the telephone call and that he should inform the competent officer. That was the state of affairs at the time.
Q Was this an order which you gave to Sommer; was this an order on your own initiative?
A. No, I just passed on the order from Pohl to Sommer.
Q. Why did Pohl ask you to pass on this order?
A. Because there was nobody also around.
Q. Was that actually part of your work?
A. No, the adjutant had to do this work usually. In all the 14 boxes containing my files, you won't find any other order of that kind.
Q. I am now coming to Document 3892, Exhibit 609. An now, I come to Document 3902, Exhibit 610. Do you have these documents. It is document 3892, Exhibit 609; 3902, Exhibit 610. Have you found the documents?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this qualification expert an inmate or a free worker?
A. He was a free worker.
Q. What was his task?
A. The Oil-Slate Research Company feared at first that they would not have sufficient amount of experts in order to fulfill their tasks. For this reason, a man who was an expert on oil-slate was needed who was to select several engineers from the inmates. This qualification expert was to contact the then Standartenfuehrer Maurer. As a result of the fact, however, that the Russians had occupied Estonia and since the Oil-Slate companies there had been dissolved, and all Estonians had escaped from the Russians, the Oil-Slate Research Company afterwards had so many experts at their disposal that it was unable to find work for all of them. Consequently, it was not necessary anymore, for the qualification expert to do his work in Oranienburg, that is to select the inmates who had any specific knowledge with regard to oil-slate production.
Q. Is it therefore correct that the classification officer actually never carried out his work?
A. No, this qualification expert never carried out his work.
Q. Did you order this qualification expert to be given that assignment?
A. No.
Q. Did you see to it that inmates were selected?
Court No. II, Case No. IV
A. No, no inmates were selected.
Q. For what reason did you carry out this activity at all?
A. Pohl told me that I was to write to Hauptmann von Kruedener or that I was to write to Mauer to see if he had a qualification expert at his disposal, and that is why I wrote to Mauer.
Q. I have one more question with regard to the guards which were furnished. Were the 79 guards actually sent to Erzingen?
A. I don't know that. I can't tell that, but I assume that they were sent there.
Q. In your cross examination the question was further put to you whether you had an executive position in a company where inmates were employed; and you answered this question in the negative, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the prosecutor put to you that you were a member of the board of supervisors in Golleschau?
A. Yes, that is also correct.
Q. Please describe to the Tribunal, first of all, the tasks of the board of supervisors according to commercial law and with consideration of the point of view of whether this activity can be considered to be an executive activity.
A. We have a board of supervisors in the A.G. law and the GmbH Law. The GmbH law did not carry out the Fuehrer Principle because no new law had been worked out yet. This was prevented by the outbreak of the war. The stockholders law dates from the 30th of January 1937. It was to be brought completely into line with the Furhrer Principle. However, the economic circles opposed this measure because they alleged that the Fuehrer Principle could not be used in the economy, at least not to the extent as it had been done in the Reich government or as the Leadership of the Third Reich wanted it to be in politics. Therefore, on the 30th of January 1937, a new stockholders law was issued. The stockholders law determines the authority of the board of supervisors. It states that the Court No. II, Case No. IV board of supervisors can check the books of the companys and the objects owned by the company, the treasury, the bonds, and goods on hand, and so on.