Why? Because there was a possibility now to sabotage a "could" order. Had it been a "should" order they would have had to do it. It would have been a "must" order. Let me give you another example. In 1940 a Reichsfuehrer-SS order arrived. That was an order from God, from the SS-God, of course. The approximate context of the order was the following: a visit at the concentration camp of Mauthausen has brought to my attention a surprising case of homosexuality. There were a few personal remarks added to this case, and the conclusion was that in the concentration camp brothels were to be installed in order to prevent that inmates who had been in the camp for years, should become homosexuals in the camp. Because of the fact that homosexuals in Germany had been locked up in the concentration camps. Therefore, one could not possibly produce more homosexuals. But, though that was an order, even that order was carried out very reluctantly by the concentration camp commanders. For instance, the commander of the concentration camp of Flossenburg fell because he would not comply with this order. When Himmler in 1944 carried out an inspection which he had announced in Neuengamme, the concentration camp commander very hurriedly and quickly installed such a brothel, which was called a special barracks. Within three weeks, working day and night shifts, he had a more or less luxurious brothel installed, which grew right out of nothing. For this purpose he even took from the Wehrmacht stocks an especially large barracks. They could if it appeared necessary for them to do so, do something. But if it appeared necessary for the inmates' sake only, then they could not do anything.
Now coming back to the privileges, there were all kinds of privileges. For instance, additional bread, the additional heavy workers allowance. The work managements were fighting for it for a long time. Finally, in 1942, the inmates received this allowance. There was also the so called, danger allowance.
In our plant in Neuengamme, in the brick factory men were working on the ovens. They came constantly in contact with carbondioxide gas, and their lives were being threatened all the time. In that instance there was always a struggle to receive milk for these men. Berlin arranged that these men received a certain amount of milk daily. But they ever removed the cream off the milk, and then gave them just the skim milk instead of giving them the full content of milk which they needed, after having received and signed for proper milk.
Then, of course, there were other privileges which were being fought for, namely: The elimination of one or two of the roll calls. There were three roll calls, one in the evening, one in the morning, and one at noon; two were to be eliminated. Sofar, these privileges were supported by normal working conditions, they were carried out by the concentration camp commander. Before the inmates had left for work they had already stood in line for one or two hours for a roll call in the morning. The inmates were not machines. All these hardships which they suffered standing for roll call resulted in less work, and the same applied to the noon roll call. An additional privilege was then the installation of canteens for the inmates. These inmate canteens, of course, did not have any large supply, or important things for sale. It was more of a joke what one could buy there, and a normal thinking human being would not possibly believe if one would tell him, that for instance, for twenty marks we could buy a large amount of red beets and just as much sauerkohl, a few pieces of sand-soap as soap, and as a center piece, we would receive a few cigarettes. But they did not have anything themselves, which they could offer. Then we had further privileges, which were the following, namely: The working conditions themselves. Then in the billetting at the camp, and in certain other things, which are not made so important.
A (Continued) The most important thing is that toward the end of 1942 a bonus system was introduced. Up to that time we could only receive money from home. From that moment on the money was no longer paid out. The inmates were limited to bonuses. That means they received 50 pfennigs up to 4 marks per week in bonuses, this was camp money, depending on how much work they did. The highest amount of four marks was prescribed. You could buy things in the canteen for those bonuses and those bonuses could also serve to order newspapers and to use the camp brothel. Those bonuses were developed quite well by Office W-I. As I stated before, 4 marks was the total amount that could be received and the bonuses had to be paid by the works managements. The camp had nothing to do with it. There was a further regulation, I believe, that 10% of the amount which the works management or private firms had to pay to the SS Treasury, to be transferred for work done by the inmates, at the most could be used for bonuses. From Neuengamme with the help of the works management and the inmates we helped boost up those bonuses, with special bonuses, so the inmates were receiving from 1½ marks up to 12 marks. Then they received special bonuses in the shape of goods and individual articles, for instance, clothing, etc., as far as could possibly be provided in the camp secretly, because the resistance of the camp commandant was to be evaded. I can give you the figure from the balance of 1944. In 1944 the Klinker Works in Neuengamme had paid for inmate labor assignment to the Reich a total of approximately 300,000 marks. It could have been a few thousand marks over that. Then we paid for special bonuses and special achievements, etc. to my comrades and myself 100,000 marks which was roughly 33% as compared to the 10% which was permitted. Mummenthey, in order to come back to your client, Mr. Defense Counsel, absolutely agreed with that tendency although it was not quite in compliance with the main order that had been made. Mummenthey permitted expenditures, I mention in this connection that all expenditures had to be approved by Berlin.
The works managers had only authority over smaller amounts. That's the way it was in the SS, namely, that because they had no knowledge of economy everything was overorganized and administered, or everything was under-organized. Let me turn to another SS-enterprise from the main office group, the DAW. It was also in Neuengamme and inmates were working for them. This DAW had protested against the extension of bonuses by the Klinker Works. They had turned in a complaint about both the work manager and the labor assignment officer of Neuengamme by saying that this bonus system resulted in a competition by the difference in pay the inmates would get. The inmates of DAW would not be willing to work and would ask for special privileges and special premiums also or ask to be transferred to the Klinker Works. I don't know for sure, but I believe that complaint was even made to Mummenthey in Berlin. The man who originated this was the manager of DAW in Neuengamme, SS-Untersturmfuehrer Mueller.
There were also additional privileges on other fields, I don't think necessary to mention them here. The most important thing in all those privileges was that there was the tendency to improve conditions under which the inmates were working in the Klinker Works. But, the most important thing, as I said before, they couldn't take care of. They could not provide them with sufficient food and sufficient supplies nor could they possibly guarantee their lives because in this field the SS-concentration camp administration which was administered by the SS-RSHA decided alone. Thus they had to follow the tendency which was coming after Heydrich's death. They had to treat inmates a little bit better and they would have to stop this torture and killing. But the concentration camp administration still wanted to succeed by exterminating the inmates.
Q. Witness, you mentioned the conference before which took place in Neuengamme under the chairmanship of Mummenthey and the works managers However, in the course of your statements you deviated from the context of this conference.
Could you tell the Tribunal something more about the conference you listened to through the wood partition? Tell us Mummenthey's attitude and the attitude of the works managers?
A Mummenthey opened the session. He informed the people of the subject of the conference which dealt with a few general commercial and organizational questions. The most interesting points were the question of privileges and the increase of the willingness to work by inmates by granting special privileges and taking special measures. The works managers had been informed in advance of the order of the day of this conference. That was the reason why they had taken along suggestions, plans and ideas to this conference. You are not interested in organizational measure, Your Honor, and I don't think it was very interesting either. There were individual suggestions and after that they discussed all the individual suggestions brought before the President. Those suggestions contained what actually took place later on. Some went beyond, some remained behind the suggestions but all ran along the same line.
Q Did Mummenthey actually agree with those ideas?
A Yes, he did. He tried his best to eliminate the opposition which resulted with respect to a few points. He also said a few words on one occasion which actually made me smile which were of a sociological nature. One of my comrades, and I repeat this verbatim, said, "Now, Mummy, is going to become a teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow he acts as a physician."
Q You use the name Mummy. Was that for Mummenthey?
A His name is long and usually in the case of a long name it is abbreviated and that was the reason we called him Mummy.
Q But this abbreviation in some way had something commendable in it?
A No. I didn't think about it. The name was somewhat jovial and the whole attitude of Mummenthey, who was moving about the SS uniform, was a little bit different from the attitude of other SS leaders.
He did not have the Prussian manner.
Q Witness, let me go on to another point. According to your testimony the inmates were exclusively in the power of the concentration camp administration. The inmates as far as we knew were picked up by the guard units and taken to their work and after they had finished their work they were taken back to camp. How was the supervision carried out during the work? Did the works managers have possibility to assign the work to the inmates and supervise that work without using the guards or did the guards themselves get mixed up in the kind of work being done? Did they help?
A This point is perhaps one which illustrates best. In the morning the individual units were selected in the camp during roll call. Then the competent group leader of the concentration camp would take over the detail - this detail leader usually was a sergeant - he took the detail to the Klinker Works and again had roll call there and checked the names again, counted them up. Then he would have the individual working columns stand in line. Every capo or foreman would take over his column and went to work. The commando leader, the SS-Unterscharfuehrer or rottenfuehrer were exclusively subordinate to the concentration camp commandant.
They had to take no orders from the works manager or his deputy. It was absolutely clear that the inmates, even while working, were within the power and the authority of the concentration camp. The civilians in Neuengamme, two or three of them, simply had to give instructions to the inmates which directly - I stress the word, directly - referred to their work and nothing but their work. Other conversations and other statements or orders were explicitly forbidden.
Now, a very unfortunate order had come out in 1942. The tendency of those two lines which separated themselves, of the Reich Security Main Office and the WVHA, RSHA and WVHA - the name of the main office formerly was Main Office Economy and Administration - had been recognized in Berlin. It was not difficult, even the laymen in Berlin had to see that it had no sense. For that reason an order came out which promoted the concentration camp commanders to works managers or works directors of the enterprise. There had been difficulties constantly. There were frictions, because the managers, works managers, said, "The work in the enterprise is our own job and nobody else's." The concentration camp commanders said, "The inmates who work there belong to us. It is up to us. It is our business." In order to possibly build a bridge across those frictions an order was issued by Pohl. Pohl at least at the time thought he was doing well by doing so, but he was a layman, a layman in economic matters. He made the concentration camp commanders work directors of all those enterprises where inmates under their administration were working. By that he gave them authority which was higher than the one of the works manager. We had a very clever works manager who somehow could find his way out of this dilemna. We had others, however, who had to comply exactly with the commanders' orders, particularly if the man who had been placed in charge was an SS NCO, not a civilian, as, for instance, was the case with the Klinker Works in Neuengamme. These subordinates these NCO's of the SS, who were in charge of leadership, felt that tendency very well by intuition. And you surely all know the character of the Prussian non-commissioned officer.
He is known the world over. This Prussian non-commissioned officer, of course, had the authority intensified a hundredfold, a thousandfold, in himself, the authority which he thought his leaders had, and he also passed on that authority with the necessary results, of course. One case is characteristic. (There was an interruption because of difficulty with the sound equipment.)
THE INTERPRETER: All right, Your Honor, I believe we can go on.
A (Continuing): I wanted to tell you the names of these commando leaders. I want to give them chronologically, briefly. We had a Rottenfuehrer by the name of Nau who was a commando leader. He was a beast. Then we had Rottenfuehrer Speck. He was worse. Both have been hanged. These people had nothing else in their mind but torture and murder. They were cruel to their inmates and killed them or they would go through our working place and disturb them in their work. The will to work suffered. Particularly in Neuengamme, the Klinker Works, the work was highly mechanized, so that inmates were working on machines which were rather hard to handle. We had to neglect the work due to these constant disturbances.
I repeatedly pointed this out to Kahn who was in touch with these inmates and supplied him with facts. However, the guard was never relieved. The commander would not let himself become impressed with matters to work. One morning a comrade of mine came and told me that he and several other inmates had surprised Nau while he with the cook of the civilian enterprise had some sort of dealings, which I do not have to refer to in detail. Thereupon Nau was relieved of his duties because that was not in accordance with the morals which the commander expected of his men.
Speck, after his departure, mistreated me because they had found out afterwards I was the one who actually did the whole thing. He knocked out a few of my teeth and deformed me in some other way. Kahn was quite mad because I told him I couldn't finish the balance and I remember Kahn turning in a complaint with the commander of the camp, and Speck was also punished with eight days arrest and no privilege of promotion for one year.
When the new commando leader came, a new man in charge of the detail, he did nothing but continue the policy there. In the noon recess he held a speech to all the inmates of the work there and he told them, "A certain man by the name of Kahn who used to be the works manager thinks that he has the right to say something here. I am the only man who gives orders around here. I am the commando leader, and don't forget that. Namely, your life is in the hands of the camp. The factory cannot help you if we want to destroy you." That was this little NCO, the Prussian NCO actually used the right terms and put things in the way the situation actually was.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q Witness, if I understood your testimony correctly, you wished to say, and in order not to put the answer into your mouth, I am asking you the following: Who was responsible for all those bad regulations under which the inmates had to suffer and which cost the lives of several of them?
A I can only answer that question of yours with reference to Neuengamme with 100 percent certainty. The answer is: the management and the people responsible in the works are not responsible for any of the deaths.
Q Witness, do you know whether Mummenthey endeavored to help inmates and to get out of the concentration camp and by that I mean inmates who were working well, and to put them back on a civilian status. Do you know anything about it?
A It is actually the case that inmates who were working in individual enterprises of the DEST, upon Mummenthey's suggestion through Pohl and to Gluecks, have been released by the RSHA. The first case which I heard myself was - and according to what I hear now it wasn't the only case - the following:
Namely the case of the inmate Ludwig Fischer. He was an architect in my office of the Klinker Works in Neuengamme. In 1941 he was released upon Mummenthey's suggestion and was employed as an architect, as a civilian employee, in Trambachkirchen near Mauthausen. In 1942 I had been in a position to speak to Fischer for quite a while during the conference, in 1942. As a works manager, as a civilian, or as a construction manager, rather. He had come to the conference in Neuengamme, the conference which we were speaking about before. As an old comrade, of course, we sneaked into a corner and we had quite a long discussion about this and that and the other. I also learned about the terms and conditions under which he had been released and was employed as a civilian. He told me that he was receiving a salary as a construction manager and apart from that he could also take care of his business, a building firm, near Karlsruhe.
But he also told me the following - let me stop and think for a minute - that he in his new working place near Mauthausen, although he had the position of a construction manager, had to struggle and fight with the enmity and animosity of the SS officers. He also told me, "I believe that I will soon have to wear the same clothes you wear. The commander of the concentration camps by the name of Ziereiss is after me." Actually, one or two years later he was again arrested and placed in a camp.
Mummenthey furthermore got other inmates out of other camps, I myself was the second case. Since 1944, my release, and at the same time my employment as a civilian employee was worked on. It took one year from the moment of the application. The resistance offered by Berlin was rather strong. This shows that the power of the SSWVHA within the framework of the entire SS structure was not very strong. If the power would really have been as strong as they actually thought it was, then all it would have needed would have been a letter; in order to get out an inmate; namely as in my case, for instance, a bookkeeper and the other case of Fischer who was an architect. They thought they had the power but they didn't have it.
Perhaps, it was of importance for Mummenthey to be able to seek power himself and to imagine that he was strong, both for himself and for his subordinates, saying that he actually succeeded in doing something by releasing a few inmates from the concentration camp. For us inmates, there was nothing else, no better aim or better luck than to be released from a concentration camp.
On the 5th of February 1945 - that is a few days before the liberation by the Allies - my release had been granted me. I had already been dressed up in the morning and I had to wait until six o'clock in the evening whereupon the commander said "Bickel is not going to be released. I am not going to release him." He was stronger. Although the order had come from Berlin to have me released, although my papers were ready, although I was ready, dressed up and everything -I had received my wedding ring again, had received my clothes again and had signed for them -- the commander at six o'clock in the evening said, "Go back to the camp.
Change into your clothes again. You are an inmate."
The commander had found out that Mummenthey had done that and he wanted to prove he was the stronger. He was nothing but a beast. That is the reason why I again became an inmate. It was depressing. I got again into my inmate's garb, went back. Kahn called Mummenthey up - the same evening, I believe. As I learned from Kahn, Mummenthey went again to see Pohl.
Now there was another question, a question of competencies. That was my only hope. Pohl understood the whole idea in the struggle between the competencies and Gluecks decided I would be released to go and work there. The main argument of the commander was: "Bickel will keep his old desk, his old chair and his old activity. He is no longer an inmate. Only he is going to be paid now. That isn't necessary. As an inmate can do the same thing."
Now the order came on the 8th of February and yet the commander showed me that he was still the stronger man. My order for release was effective the 8th of February but he only let me out of the camp on the 10th of February 1945. That was a few days before the liberation by the Allies. On the 8th of February he had me report, this time before his door; I had to wait in front of his door for two days until he finally agreed in letting me go - that is to say, until he finally agreed to give me the last threats, last advice which was: "Now, if you come back again I am personally going to hang you"; and I am quite sure he would have done it, too, whereupon I told him, "Mr. Commander, if a man is about ready to drown and he is saved by going on a ship he will see to it that this ship does not throw him back into the water." That is all he said and that is all I said and I was again.
Then, of course, I had to live within the Klinker Area. I was not permitted to leave Neuengamme. I couldn't use a radio and I couldn't contact any Jews because that was the argument used against me; but that case was rather symptomatic of the struggle between concentration camps and administration and the economic administration of the DEST.
There were also other releases which had been granted by Mummenthey at, I believe, Mauthausen and, as far as I know, complaints were made to Mummenthey on one occasion that those inmates who had been released by him had again committed offenses. But if he continued helping those inmates by letting them out, perhaps there was the reason to still do something against the people in the concentration camp, but I am sure there was a human interest behind it, a commercial interest, because this labor of the inmates, which was not being paid for, was cheaper than a former inmate, the civilian, who was being paid very well.
Q Witness, two more concluding questions with reference to this question: do you know, in the case of Fischer who was mentioned by you before, that Mummenthey personally had difficulties himself because he had succeeded in having Fischer released from the concentration camp and transferred him to civilian work and the plant which was mentioned before?
A Yes, I was told that when I spoke with the works manager Kahn due to the delay in my release.
Q The second question is: is it correct that, particularly in your case, Mummenthey actually was very persistent in your release, and, by the fact that you were released, which Mummenthey actually initiated, you today are possibly lucky to be still alive and, if so, what was the reason for it?
A It is correct that Mummenthey actually had to be very persist ent to have me released from the commander.
I have already mentioned that in great detail. It may also be correct that I owe part of my life, or the greatest part of my life, to Mummenthey due to this release. The reason being that a few days prior to the capitulation Neuengamme was evacuated. The German inmates were placed before the alternative, so far as they were strong enough, to sign up in the SS, or to be evacuated or deported. Of course, if I had still been an inmate, I would have rather been shot than sign up and join the SS because, after I had suffered so many years by the SS, I could not possibly use a bazooka and work together with the SS. If I hadn't done that, I would have been sent to the ship "Cap Arcona" together with the other 7,000 inmates who were still alive.
This ship "Cap Arcona" on the 3rd or 4th of May 1945 was sunk in the Bay of Luebeck. Of the 7,000 men only 500 men could save their lives, a percentage of 7½, a chance of 100 to 7. That difference of 93 to 7 I really owe to Mummenthey.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Your Honor, would you make a recess now and then we would discuss the sinking after the recess?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. FICHT FOR THE DEFENDANT KLEIN: Your Honors, I request that the defendant Klein be excused from this afternoon's session in order to prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The motion is granted. He may be absent from the afternoon session.
MR. McHANEY: Your Honors, during the morning recess I have had the opportunity of looking into the status of Dr. Winkler who has been requested as a witness by Dr. Gawlik. It appears that the witness is a prospective defendant in a case being prepared by another division. Consequently, that division has not had a representative present and does not intend to have one present. However, I think that the right of the other division to have someone present during interrogations of a prospective defendant should be preserved and we so request.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honors, however my right should not be taken away from me to talk to the witness without a representative of the Prosecution being present because the Prosecution will have a chance this way to be prepared for cross examination before I examine the witness and this witness in the case of Dr. Bobermin can be questioned on the seizure of the brick works. That is no reason why Winkler should be accused. I only want to discuss the seizure of the brick works with the witness, whether the brick works were disappropriated. I would be agreeable that a representative of the Tribunal should be there but I object to the fact that a representative of the Prosecution should be present.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is well aware of the fact that the presence of a representative of the Prosecution has a very serious effect on the interrogation and that the witness if very much inclined to refuse to talk to the defense counsel with the Prosecution representative there.
On the other hand the Tribunal assumes that all the defense counsel wishes is a chance to get the true facts and that no questions will be asked or no statements made which would interfere with getting the truth from the witness. In order to meet both of these difficulties leave will be granted to interview the prospective witness without the presence of a representative of the Prosecution but in the presence of a member of this Tribunal, and Judge Speight, the alternate Judge, will serve in that capacity. You may make arrangements for the interview and notify Judge Speight of the time and plane and then you may interview the witness without a member of the Prosecution Staff being present.
Is that satisfactory Mr. McHaney?
MR. MC HANEY: Yes, entirely, Your Honor. It might be more convenient for all concerned if they had perhaps remember of the Secretary General's office who speaks German substitute for Judge Speight. However, that makes no difference to me. Of course, if Judge Speight is present it will require translation from German into English in order to understand the interrogation. It just occurs to me that this might be more desirable. I am just pointing out to the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: How about Major Schaefer of the Defense Information Center?
MR. MC HANEY: Entirely satisfactory to the Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, will you make the arrangements with Major Schaefer to be present at your interrogation.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Before you start, Dr. Froeschmann, may I ask the witness: Were you ever finally discharged as an inmate and rehired as a civilian?
A. Yes.
Q. How long before the liberation of the camp was your transfer actually accomplished?
A. On 10 February 1945 I was released from the concentration camp as an inmate and I was transferred to the Klinker Works as a civilian employee. I was conscripted for labor there in accordance with regulations at that time. I had to live within the plant area and, consequently, I also had to stay in the concentration camp area. I received a civilian salary and I was employed as a bookkeeper and as a commercial manager. I was subject to certain restrictions; That is to say I was not allowed to leave Neuengamme without specific orders of the plant manager.
Q. When was Neuengamme liberated?
A. On 3 May 1945 I personally turned over the concentration camp Neuengamme to Major Boyle of British Military Government, Detachment 521. At the end of April the SS had left and had completely evacuated the camp. As a result of the fact that I was not an inmate anymore I was able to hide although I should have gone along with the SS. Consequently I was the last inmate in Neuengamme.
Q. Then you served as a civilian for about three months?
A. March, April - not quite 3 months, about 2½ months.
BY DE. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, I am now coming to the end of your examination and I must say that you have been very objective in your statements although one could have suspected other feelings to be harbored by you. In the course of the trial two concepts have been of importance and thy have repeatedly awakened the interest of the Tribunal. They are surrounded by a certain veil of sevrecy. One is the concept of the crematorium and the chamber harboring the corpes in the concentration camp about which the Prosecution had alleged that very wide circles, and in part my client Mummenthey, must have known something about them.
The other concept is the concept of the punitive company and a number of witnessess have mentioned that from their own point of view. I believe that in the interest of an objective explanation it is necessary for you to describe these two concepts to us in detail, in particular to what extent Mummenthey had knowledge of these things, and to what extent he was able to have knowledge about them, and if he did have knowledge what he did about these things. Please tell us something about that.
A. Whenever a concentration camp was established then the most important institutions were not the kitchen or the hospital or the accommodations, for the inmates but the most important things were: (1) the chamber where the corpses could be stored; (2) the place where the corpses could be cremated; and (3) the punitive detachment.
This is a parallel to what was done in the colonies of Germany before the First World War. When I was a boy I once read the history of the colonization of Cameroun. The German colonial agencies first of all established police stations and prisons, and that is exactly what was done in the concentration camps. The punitive detachments were institutions of the camp. The camp commander used them in order to exercise his punitive authority over the inmates. The camp commander in most cases was a very uneducated and primitive human being. Other people wouldn't have acted like that. He decided about the life and death of thousands of inmates. He had the punitive authority from 1940 or '39 on. He had the following possibilities; (1) he was able to order the flogging of inmates, a fact which is well known. The inmate would be put on a bench and SS people would flog him with heavy whips. The second possibility of punishment was hanging. I myself got acquainted with this method on several occasions. From 1940 on the hands were tied on the back of the inmate with chains and in this way the inmate was pulled up above the ground, and in that way he was left hanging so that his body would be suspended in the air. Of course the joints would be dislocated in the arms, and the inmate would be incapable of performing any work for quite some time. I want to add here that this method of punishment was abolished at the end of 1942 upon the recommendation of the plant managers and the economic sector.
The next medium of punishment was the punitive company. All vio lations for which some sort of punishment was imposed on inmates were always of a very slight and minor nature.
For example, I was flogged on one occasion with twenty-five lashes of the whip because somebody found me loitering around when I should have been working. After all, I only had a purely commercial activity. On one occasion I stood at the roll-call square and the man in charge of the detachment saw me and he wrote out a report about it. Several days later I had to report to the punitive board, and here I received the punishment for my violation. I was not allowed to make any statement there at all. The report read that I had stood around when I should have been working. I had loitered, and the commander told me in the SS terminology, "Well, you pig, you are too lazy to work, and now we are going to beat you up." He did not consider the fact that I had a very important job and that I fulfilled my work efficiently in the plant. I couldn't tell that to the commander and he wasn't interested at all in that. A few days later I was actually flogged, and then the whole case was settled.
THE PRESIDENT: Who administered the flogging?
THE WITNESS: The SS block leaders. They were noncommissioned officers, and each of them was in charge of one block. That was a block of barracks where the inmates were accommodated, and all the inmates could be assigned to the punitive detachment for very minor violations, for example, because they had smoked when they should have been working, or some other minor violation. However, there were also transfers to the punitive detachments as the result of the inmate's records. When, in the year 1940, the concentration camp Neuengamme was established, the commander created a punitive detachment which was divided into three parts. It was called Roller I, Roller II, and Roller III. The name of this punitive detachment originated from its work. The inmates were harnessed before heavy rollers, and then they had to pull these rollers back and forth across a square of the newly established camp, and the new camp road which was being constructed.