Q Then for a certain period of time you belonged to the punitive company. If I understood you right I think this punitive company was not under the orders of the WVHA but under the order of the camp commander.
A Yes, under the orders of the camp commander.
Q You then described the conditions with regard to the food supplies. Witness, could you give us an approximate estimate, what was according to your opinion the calorie ration which was given to the inmate per day and what he actually received?
A The calories were of such a character that the inmates who were sent to the clinker punitive companies, namely during the winter, could not live longer than four weeks, that is as far as calories are concerned, the quantity of calories. I would make an estimate and say that there were about 800 calories, but as I said I cannot give you definite information with regard to this figure. But namely all the preferential treatment which the inmates had inside the camp, insofar as they didn't belong to the punitive company, these bonuses were excluded for the members of the punitive company, if I shall point it out with one word here, describe the conditions in reality, this punitive company was considered the so-called death company.
Q Witness, the first point I asked you for was not for the number of calories concerning this punitive company; but I, rather, wanted to know what was the general quantity of calories in the camp?
A Well, I could not indicate the quantity of calories given to the inmates of the camp. I can only tell you that what was the food we received in the camp. If you would like me to do that, then I am quite ready to do it.
Q But the number of calories in the camp was certainly higher than 800 which the punitive company received?
A The food outside of the punitive company was better, as in the SK the quantity of calories was higher.
Q But you can not give me an approximate figure?
A No, that is impossible for me. I can only give you the quantities which we received daily in the camp of Sachsenhausen, in the main camp.
Q Then, you have testified that the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl once visited the camp workshops, and you, yourself, explained the production to him?
A Yes.
Q Could Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl at that time make any observations of a factual character which would lead to the conclusion of bad treatment or mistreatment of inmates?
A No; during this visit in the ceramic workshops, he couldn't.
DR. SEIDL: May it please the Tribunal, I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN: (Counsel for the Defendant Mummenthey)
Q Witness, you worked at Oranienburg; could you tell the Tribunal first of all whether this work was established in a modern fashion, or whether it complied with the usual style of such work?
A The brick work Oranienburg, I think, was the most modern, belonged to the most modern of this kind of work, and had the most modern equipment.
Q In the brick work Oranienburg, were there big machines and electrical equipment which improved and facilitated the work of the individual workers considerably?
A The processing of the stones was done first of all by machines; that is, in the brick works, if I remember well, there were twenty-four tunnel furnaces and three so-called water gates. The heavy work was the transporting of the stones from the tunnel furnaces, and it was very hot there, and the transport of the stones, which had to be done again during this work, and which was felt as especially heavy work; this was considered punitive work.
Q Witness, you mentioned the name Kopke. Do you know that the defendant Mummenthey had requested the file Kopke because he, Mummenthey, knew Kopke, and he wanted to rehabilitate him?
A Today I can not recall that. It is true that I requested the files myself from the Prosecution at Eger, but today I don't know why I requested them. I think that I can remember that Dr. Kopke, after he was released from his arrest, get some job with the SS, he got some job with DEST -- but I could not tell you that with certitude today.
Q Can you remember whether Kopke was arrested upon the denunciation by a certain Koetter, who was the administrator of the Victoria; that he was arrested in 1938?
A That is correct. I think that the question of the then Obersturmbannfuehrer, I think -- yes, there was a big dispute at that time on account of this Koetter, what his name was.
Q And is it correct that Kopke was not director of the Bohemia but, rather, of the Victoria?
A That is possible too.
Q And finally, is it correct that Koetter was appointed by Case No. 4, Court No. 2 the Reichkommisar for the treatment of foreign property?
A I think I can remember that this is correct.
Q Do you know when the Bohemia was transferred to the Office W-1?
A I could not give you the time.
Q You described to this Tribunal that during a considerable period of time you worked in the legal department of the Office W-1, the DEST. How long have you worked in this legal department?
A I worked in the legal department of DEST from November 1943 until the 10th of April 1945.
Q That is, during the two years you had considerable opportunity to see the correspondence which went through your hands, and look at them in your capacity as a lawyer?
A Yes.
Q When you went through these files, did you see monthly reports of the working management of the DEST?
A I saw monthly reports of the working management; yes.
Q What did these work-management reports deal with?
AAs far as I remember, they dealt merely with the administration of the workshop.
Q These reports did not contain any information on the condition of inmates in the concentration camps?
AAs far as I can remember, no.
Q You already confirmed the fact that, as far as the food was concerned, and the clothing of the inmates, the local camp command was responsible; is that correct?
A Well, later on I read at a certain time -- and I think that was in 1933 -- that from that moment on, the working and living conditions of the concentration camp inmates were to be worked out by the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. At that time I saw some sort of an order of that kind, and, as far as I remember, the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl also summoned all the camp commanders at one time, and he informed them that the inmates, from that time on, were to be considered working power -- labor, and that, therefore, that their treatment had to be changed accordingly.
Q Did you have the opportunity to discuss with Dr. Schneider, the chief of the legal department, the conditions of the inmates inside the camps and inside the workshops of DEST, and to have a personal conversation with him?
AAs to Dr. Schneider, I had quite a long discussion concerning the conditions in the concentration camps.
Q What was the viewpoint of Dr. Schneider?
A Well, it would be necessary to describe the character and the mentality of the then legal expert, Dr. Schneider. Dr. Schneider, it is true, was a very intelligent man, but he was a man without a will of his own, and, unconditionally he executed the orders which he received from superiors; and he, as a member of the SS, of course, did not admit to me that the conditions in the concentration camps were as bad as I described them to him. But I discussed with him several times, and I must say almost every week, and I told him that, as far as the concentration camps were concerned, only extermination camps could be talked about.
Q But the defendant Mummenthey seems, after all, to have had certain hesitations concerning the work of the inmates, and he seems to have felt that it would be more correct to give the order to the legal department to check on this matter...
A I assumed that the assignment of Dr. Schneider, which I received in this connection, was done for this reason.
Q Did you only submit the factual evidence to Dr. Schneider, or did you also submit legal viewpoints and check them?
A I gave a report of ten typewritten pages to Dr. Schneider, and I described to him what I have already explained to this Tribunal.
Q Do you know from the correspondence which went through your hands or by the utterances of Dr. Schneider, by remarks made by Dr. Schneider, that the defendant Mummenthey, on the strength of your expert opinion, now sent a report to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, an exhaustive report?
AAccording to what Dr. Schneider said -- which, of course, I couldn't check -- this report was said to have been sent via Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey to Maurer.
Q Who was Maurer?
A Maurer was the man, if I remember well, who was in charge of the labor assignment in the concentration camps and seemed to decide upon it.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Do you want to make a recess now, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I proceed with the cross examination.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, from your last statement again I deduce from it that food, and clothing of the inmates in the concentration camp were based on orders which passed between the inspector of the concentration camp and the camp commandant?
A. I am of that opinion, yes.
Q. Did the farm have any influence on the food of the inmates?
A. I don't think so.
Q. But do you know that the Dest in particular looked after the improvement of the food of inmates? Perhaps I can supply you with a few details in my question. Of course, I don't know whether you are informed on this point. Were the inmates of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen who were worked in and around Oranienburg given special rations of bread by the Dest?
A. I don't know who supplied these special rations which reached in the shape of so-called portions, that is to say, first of all in the armament works which were established by the Dest.
Q. Did the special rations include tobacco?
A. Yes, tobacco was also supplied to us.
Q. Were there any special rations for many of the heavy workers?
A. Once the inmates were working in the so- called armament factories, that is, in the so-called shell factories, which were also located in and around Oranienburg, and once they were no longer able, for instance, to work on the furnaces, and they wanted work on the furnaces, they were given special rations.
Q. Do you know, witness, in the Oranienburg works, there were particularly well equipped billets which had been established by the management for the inmates?
A. I don't know. If you are now talking about the so-called Klinker Camp, why, the Klinker Camp was in no way different so far as the billeting was concerned from the big camp in Sachsenhausen. It is true, however, that in the so-called Klinker Camp, it consisted of ton huts, and there was a large one --- or two story stone building. In that building there were first of all the workers who worked in what I mentioned before, the shell factory, and the inmates who worked there were billeted in that building.
Q. Did the inmates eat there?
A. Yes, the inmates took their meals in that stone building, which also had served as their eating house, that is, they could take their meals there.
Q. Do you know, witness, that in the Dest in and around Oranienburg large quantities of vegetables were brought in from the gardens as additional food for them?
A. In the area of the big brick works in Oranienburg there was a very large garden, and from that garden additional food was supplied in the shape of vegetables to the camp.
Q. Now, Witness, do you know that of all these things which you admitted, that they were done only on the solicitation of the defendant Mummenthey?
A. I am unable to make any statement on that. At least, I can assume that in order to preserve the working capability of the workers, he was interested in feeding the inmates as much as possible.
Q. This attitude which you just expressed we can understand quite well from the basis of your experience. But would it not be possible to assume that Mummenthey for reasons of pure humanitarian motives created these improvements in lieu of the fact that the food was insufficient for the inmates?
MR. ROBBINS: Now I shall have to object to that question. The witness already answered, first, he does not know, and in the second place, it calls for an admission on the part of the witness when he said he had no knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that the defendant Mumenthey is the only one who can answer that question with any degree of certainty. You are asking the witness to guess of what might have been in Mumenthey's mind. Well, the defendant Mumenthey can tell us what was such in his own mind when the time comes.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, the purpose of my question was to create the possibility of obtaining a confirmation of what Mumenthey told me. The defendant Mumenthey, if anything, is in a particularly difficult position, because all the people who were working under him as foremen can not be traced at this point, and now that the Prosecution has supplied this witness, who actually worked in Mumenthey's works, I, of course, should be allowed to put that question to the witness as I have just put it to him.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, is it correct to say that in the Spring of 1945 the concentration camp was destroyed by an air raid?
A The so-called Klinger Camp, where stones were processed, the big brick works which were called 0-1, were as far as I recall, destroyed by an air raid 11 April 1945.
Q The DEST works, were they located outside the camp?
A The DEST works were located immediately outside the entrance gate of the concentration camp. You could reach it which in a few minutes. As far as the inmates were concerned, who worked in it and who were billeted in the Klinker Camp, as far as the working inmates were concerned who came from the big camp, the main camp of Sachsenhausen and were used to work in Orienburg, I think the distance is here roughly two kilometers.
Q Witness, it is correct that the furnaces which we mentioned before were equipped in such a way that the stones and bricks were completed and processed in a mechanical way; that they came out of the furnaces and they were then; again by a mechanical method, loaded on trucks so that the work of the inmates, on the whole, was merely concerned with gripping these stones?
A The work of the inmates consisted in the manner which you described just now, but I would like to add to this that the bricks and stones came from the halls on little trucks to the square outside and that work was actually very heavy. I described it during my direct examination, and I said that it was very heavy work.
Q Witness, while you worked in the legal department, did you ever see a document in which the management of the DEST took the attitude that prisoners must be worked to death?
A As far as that sort of document is concerned, I can not recall one.
Q Now, a different question, witness: This morning you referred repeatedly to the guards in the concentrations camps. Was it possible for you, while you were in the camp, to find out from what classes of the population these guards came up to 1943? What type of people were they?
A I think that these guards came from a class of people who used to belong to the black SS, or the Active SS, as I should like to call it. As far as their characters were concerned, they were anything but nice. I have already said this morning that to a very large extent I looked upon them as criminals. I came to that conclusion, because they preferred the professional criminals. They were rather kind to them, if, indeed, you can call our guards kind, of course, where as toward the political prisoners, and particularly in so far as they came from circles of what I call the intellectuals, toward these people they took the attitude that such people were superfluous, that they had no right to live.
Q You just spoke of the Black SS. What do you mean by the Black SS?
A The so-called black SS that is to say, the people who wore black uniforms.
Q Do you know the difference between the general SS and the Waffen SS?
A No, at this point I can not give you that difference very precisely. I know that the guards were members of the Deathhead company, as far as I can recall today.
Q Do you know that in the course of the years 1933 to 1939 the better elements were taken from the SS guards and were given military training and were transferred later on to the Waffen-SS?
A I was told that at the time.
Q Do you know that as substitutes for the better elements who had left the SS, men were brought in and used as guards who were connected with the Police?
A I have no possibility of judging that. All I can say is -- and I have said so before-- that so far as I was concerned, the members of our guards at that time were criminals.
Q In others words, you personally did not bother about the point of from what circles these SS men who you call criminals came?
A No, I reached my conclusion from my contacts with professional criminals that from a social and criminal point of view were the same type of men as the professional criminals in the concentration camps. Otherwise they would have been no explanation for human beings to be beaten to death and killed by stones and sticks.
Q That is the very reason why I wanted you to tell me in order also to show the court that a certain difference should be made between the members of the Waffen SS on the one hand and these guards on the other, who as you seem to think, are made up of criminals Was it not the tendency of DEST to preserve and keep the workers whom they trained so carefully?
A They wanted to keep them certainly. Whether they wanted to keep them alive beyond the year-
Q Do you know, witness, that DEST applied for releases of these workers and wishes to make them civilians workers?
A I know that such tendencies on the part of the DEST released a very small part of the inmates, in order that they could be used as workers for the WVHA. In this connection, in order to be objective as just, I can say that so far as I was concerned, in November 1944 the defendant Mummnethey applied for my release to the RSHA. However, the application came back with a note from Kaltenbrunner that the release of the defendant Engler must never be contemplated.
Q So, if I can sum up what you have said just now, are you agreed with me that the management-- that is to say, Mummenthey -- to a very large degree had social understanding for the position in which inmates found themselves?
A I have said previously that I do not know what the causes for applications for release were. All I know is that workers who were valuable for DEST were supposed to be kept on in order that they could be used more extensively. In my case, for instance, I was to be released in order to be able to work as an attorney or in the legal department DEST before the Berlin courts.
Q What was the general opinion of Mummenthey's work?
A Mummenthey was not very well known and therefore, it was not possible to from a judgment in the sense that you mean. As far as the group of mass murderers were concerned, he was not included among them.
DR. FROESCHMANN: I have no further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMANN(For Defendant Scheide)
Q Witness, did you ever leave Sachsenhausen between '41 and '45?
A I did not leave the camp in that period.
Q Witness, were you in a position to write letters from the camp, were you able to describe conditions?
A That was quite impossible.
Q When visitors came to the camp could you go to them and describe what you had gone through?
A That again was quite impossible. It was only possible if you wished to commit suicide.
Q Do you believe, witness, that secrecy was completely maintained as far as the camp was concerned?
A I assume that, for instance, people who lived at Oranienburg certainly knew what was going on at Sachsenhausen, but that was only a limited class of people. I am unable to judge whether other circles, that is to say the German people, for instance, knew anything about conditions in concentration camps, if they didn't listen to illegal broadcasts or were informed by members, former members of the concentration camps who would tell them at the risk of their lives. If somebody was released he was told not to divulge anything. Every inmate who was released had to sign a form and he obligated himself not to say one word of what he had seen and experienced in the camp, that is, to say nothing to third parties about anything.
Q Now, do you think that was observed according to the experiences you had in the camp?
AAs the whole of the German people did not dare, or at least the majority of the German people did not have the courage to say anything, those would have done it even less who knew that by communicating everything they risked being brought back to the concentration camp, which would be the final step in their lives.
Q Witness, a different question now. We have heard special atrocities from Gusen-Auschwitz. Now, you and another witness who came from Sachsenhausen did not say anything of that type. Do you believe that conditions in the various camps differed from each other?
A I am of the opinion that conditions in camps whenever there were quarries connected with them were worse than camps where that type of work did not exist, but apart from that, a difference should be made between the so-called main camp, such as Sachsenhausen, and the so-called side camp, minor camps.
Q Was it also connected with the various camp commandants perhaps?
A I am of the opinion that it depended on the attitude of the camp commandant and his mentality. Our own experience at Sachsenhausen was that the treatment of the inmates was a different one as it depended on the mentality and the idiosyncrasies of whoever happened to be in charge of the camp.
Q Now, do you think, witness, that the general over-all directives for concentration camps, a camp commandant was in a position to create better or worse conditions in the camps depending on his character?
A I am of the opinion that a camp commander had the possibility to stop certain conditions which existed in other camps, that is to say, create improvements.
DR. HOFFMANN: Thank you, I have no further questions.
BY DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg)
Q Witness, you say that you had read the name Dr. Hohberg.
Was that during your activity in the legal department of DEST?
A I saw the name Hohberg on some documents or other. I said already that at that time Dr. Hohberg was no longer chief, chief of the Staff W, so therefore in '43, I believe, from my recollection, he was replaced by Oberfuehrer Baier.
Q Do you know in what context you saw that name?
A I am afraid I can not recall any more, because I had very little time to study old files unless I had to use them for certain purposes.
Q Do you perhaps remember what sort of orders Hohberg gave to DEST or are you perhaps confusing him, his name, with directives issued by somebody else?
A I said already that I am no longer able to make precise statements on this point.
Q Do you know from what point onward the Staff W was in a position to give orders to the office W-1?
A I am unable today to give you that date.
Q Do you know from the time when you studied these files whether, and in how far, the position of Dr. Hohberg was different from Baier's position?
A There again I am unable to make any statement.
Q Do you know the activities of the reviewing department of DEST?
A In that department I only met Untersturmfuehrer Woelter and Unterscharfuehrer Johann Sebastian Fischer.
Q Do you know whether these auditors were under the chief of staff of office W-1, and did they report to these people?
A I am of that opinion, yes.
Q Witness, of what opinion are you, do you think that these auditors reported to Staff W or the office W-1?
A I said before I am of the opinion that these auditors reported both to the office W-1 and also to Staff W.
Q Can you recall with any certainty that Dr. Hohberg was at any time chief of Staff W?
A I told you already that from the files, from my knowledge of the files, I think I found that Dr. Hohberg was chief of Staff W.
Q Do you know also what Hohberg's rank was?
A I can not recall that.
DR. HEIM: Thank you very much. No further questions.
DR. KARL HAENSEL (For Defendant Georg Loerner)
Q Herr Ministerialrat, you are now a labor officer in the Labor Ministry of Hessen, are you not?
A Yes.
Q You are now very busy?
A I an now very, very busy.
Q In other words, your health and your mental faculties are quite in order since you left the camp, aren't they?
A Yes. I would like to tell you, Dr. Haensel, that my physical condition when I was released from the camp was considerably different from what you see today. In this connection I might, for instance, mention that when I left the clinker punitive company I was weighing eighty pounds whereas formerly I weighed one hundred and forty pounds.
Q You are among those men who in the camp had the courage and energy to resist and to complain?
A I belonged to those men, yes.
Q Well, what is your opinion, that conditions would have been improved if there had been more men like yourself?
A I do not think so, that the conditions would have been improved. These conditions, I could not answer for these conditions myself, of course, but I had to make the attempt by bringing certain matters to daylight, and I was unable to improve matters. Nevertheless I must go on with my confirmation here.
Q Would not many things have been changed if a lively and strong resistance had come from the camp?
A I do not share your view because a lively and strong resistance would have led to the death of those who took part in it.
Q You said before that the transfer to the clinker punitive company used to lead to death within four weeks. Did the people count on that fact?
A Once they were taken into the punitive company amounted at that time to a death sentence.
Q Now, what is your explanation that if you faced death you do not offer resistance?
A Because the position is that men used to become quite apathetic and just take anything and offer no resistance. They have only one interest, to remain alive, and the will to remain alive is stronger than anything else.
Q Is that a condition for a man who has the frightful fate of being in the camp? Is it possible that a man who has not been in the camp does not understand that mentality. Is the condition, this apathetic and desperate condition of man, is that a condition which you can only understand if it was your fate to have been sent to such a camp?