BY DR. BELZER:
Q. Witness, after you were liberated, as you told us here, you had taken the files in the camp commander's office and you looked into these files, is that correct?
A. I never alleged that.
Q. Did you not see files in the office of the camp commander after you were liberated?
A. During the direct examination I testified that immediately after our liberation we took all the files that were still in existence and collected them and gave them to the Information Office. I told you the name of this Information Office twice. I myself have looked into quite a number of files but, by far, not into all of them.
Q. In these files did you see camp statutes for the concentration camps?
A. I never - and not even after my liberation - saw statutes for the concentration camps. It is true that I have seen single documents or forms from which one could see something like camp regulations; for instance, concerning the punishment, beating.
Q. Did you see a service regulation concerning the labor assignment of inmates, and that included some bonus regulations, too? Did you see that?
A. I have seen a regulation directive by the camp commander Pister of Buchenwald in which this bonus system was referred to and in which the bonus system is declared.
Q. Did you have any knowledge of an order according to which 90 percent of the inmates in the concentration camp had to receive the supplement to the normal food for heavy work?
A. I already testified that the food allotments for heavy work were different from one month to another, quite varying, and that, in reality, they were quite different - at different times - from what the regulations said. As to the directive according to which 90 percent of all inmates in the protective custody camps had to receive the supplement for heavy work - but the directive I never saw and I never heard of it, either.
Q. Did you hear about a directive according to which every month the guards should get a lecture concerning the treatment of prisoners?
A. I know that the camp commanders of the guards gave such orientation lessons and had to give them and actually did give them. And, especially, I know of one instance at Buchenwald where the orientation lessons were used to incite the guards against the inmates, especially. Other guard commanders, of course, used their lecture hours to express themselves in quite an indifferent way.
Q. You, yourself, didn't read the regulations, did you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have knowledge of an order of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl according to which the roll calls in the morning and in the evening were to be reduced to the shortest possible time?
A. I have knowledge of the fact that the trend existed from 1942.
Q. Did you hear of an interdiction, a prohibition, according to which it was prohibited, after the inmates had returned to the camp from their work, to use these inmates in the evening again for work in the camp?
A. I have no knowledge whatsoever of such a prohibition in practice. Anyhow, the situation was just the contrary.
Q. Yesterday, you testified in some concentration camps there were labor assignment commanders and labor commanders and that on the other hand in some other concentration camps they had only either a labor assignment commander or a labor commander. Is that what you said? Did I understand you correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. In the concentration camp of Buchenwald did you have a labor assignment commander?
A. From about 1942 we had one.
Q. Do you know what the field of tasks of this Arbeitseinsatz fuehrer (labor assignment commander) was?
A. The allotment of labor to exterior camps - the selection for the transports, and the corresponding reports to Berlin to the SS-WVHA, the checking of the building locations where concentration camp inmates were made to work, or were to be made to work. That is, in the outside camps and the locations where the outside camps were to be constructed.
Q. What, on the other hand, was the activity of the Arbeitsdienstfuehrer (labor commander)?
A. The labor commander had to decide on the labor of the concentration camp of Buchenwald while they were working on workshops or work locations at Buchenwald itself. He was the superior officer of the SS detail commander, who supervised the different working details of the concentration camp of Buchenwald.
Q. Did you have personal experience with regard to the effectiveness of the labor assignment commander, as far as the question of increasing the working output of the labor, of the inmate labor, and bringing them into a reasonable system?
A. I would have to ask here what you call a "reasonable system" with the SS.
Q. I ask you this question because I was referring to a remark you made in your book. I mean by "reasonable labor assignment" a labor assignment according to the capabilities of the inmates, especially. And also by keeping all possible measures in order to maintain the working power of the inmates. That is what I call a "reasonable labor assignment".
A. There is no doubt that from 1942, as I testified already in direct examination, a trend was clearly seen to maintain the working power of the inmates and to exploit it in a more thorough way. And in a more differential and in a more useful way. And that, therefore, at Buchenwald, in parts of Buchenwald, at least, efforts were made to improve the accommodations, to stagger the working time better and also to improve some of the food regulations. At the same time, however, there were parts of Buchenwald, as well as in the working details in the camp itself - for instance, a small camp - where just the contrary happened.
In the armament industries of the SS great efforts were made in this direction, that more reasonable use be made of the working power.
Q. In this connection what do you know of the abolishment of double-time during the work in the concentration camp?
A. As far as a double-time is concerned, I can only speak of Buchenwald in this connection, of course, This, of course, depended on the detail commander himself. The detail commander did not deal with these masters in the same manner as before. In the armament industry, that is, for instance, in the Gustloff Works, Weimar, and especially at the railroad construction sites, there was partly a very strong and even murdering double-time tempo. That could be seen also in the fact that the inmates, when they went for their noon recess, had to run to their working locations in double-time. But this extreme sense of double-time, as before, was not the rule anymore.
Q. Do you know anything of the abolition of the so-called SK's, the punishment companies?
A. There were occasions when the SK's were temporarily abolished. It is correct that about 1942-1943 at Buchenwald what we call the punitive company at that time was dissolved. But that didn't prevent them from setting special working details with the same character as the punitive companies. And these still existed, and people were constantly, until the very end, detailed there as a punishment or in order to increase the punishment. They were sent into these details which generally still had the name of punitive companies - at least the inmates called them that.
Q If there was an official order from Berlin to dissolve the punitive companies, then his here was nothing but just trying to get out by the concentration camps of this order.
A Yes, if the order was meant seriously, then the order had been violated or circumvented. It is true that I know of instances in which only official orders were issued but at the same time orally the people were instructed that these orders were not to be complied with. Especially, I know of such an instance from the Koch trial, which had to be brought to light by Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Morgen, who was the SS Judge. He referred to a commentary by an SS officer and I think it was in the Legal Department. His name was something like Schulz-Klinkenow.
Q As far as the question of food for the inmates is concerned, do you know anything of a directive issued by the WVHA and distributed to the camp commanders in which the camp commanders were requested to collect wild vegetables and other things as additional food for the normal food of the inmates?
A Yes, I did know of that and we all had a bitter laughter from that. The slaves of the concentration camp were looking around berries. That was just what we had been looking for.
Q Concerning the question of clothing for the inmates, did you hear anything of a proclamation where contact should be made in order to create clothing, warm clothing, for the inmates from already existing material?
A No, I never heard of that, but I did hear from the collection drive of the SS in Buchenwald for the fighting troops at the front and these collections were made from our own clothing and they collected them in the following manner: The block elders, upon the directives of the camp commanders told us the following, "You can contribute to the wool collection of the German people and the clothing collection for the fighting troops and then you will have a very favorable file notice in your file. Whoever doesn't do it gets 25 strokes on his behind."
The result was quite a considerable amount of clothing from what little clothing we had and these were then published in the Thueringer Gau Newspaper as an SS collection.
Q Witness, that was not an answer to what I asked you. I asked you whether there had been a proclamation in order to improve the clothing of the inmates.
A I never heard of it. I don't know where this proclamation is to have been published.
Q I only asked you whether you know anything about it.
A No, I didn't.
Q What do you know of the introduction of the bonus system in the labor assignment of the inmates?
A I already testified in this matter in he direct examination and clarified it. Our own money was not paid to us any longer, with the very trifling exceptions which I mentioned. Also, instead of that we received some sort of check bonus. That is certain details, and the Capos distributed this sort of script and at the camp PX, if there was something to sell, we could buy something with that money.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Just a moment, please. Dr. Belzer, you have asked this witness a very general question, "What do you know about the bonus system?" Now he already testified at great length on that particular subject, if you find some fault with what he said on that particular subject, direct his attention to the precise thing to which you object, but to have him relate again in great detail what he has already told us is just a sheer waste of time. Now, if you do not like what he said on the bonus proposition, ask him a specific question.
DR. BELZER: If your Honor please, this is a question of whether the bonus was created for especially good work or whether they were paid in just a general manner in order to distribute a sort of camp money. I want to make this testimony here.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: But you say to him, "Tell us about the creation," and he starts with the beginning of the world.
DR. BELZER: No, if your Honor please, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that my question was, "Do you know anything of the bonus system in connection with the labor assignment of the inmates?" That was my question.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: "Do you know anything?" That still leaves a pretty big door.
DR. BELZER: If Your Honor please, I give you my offer. The question will be, "Isn't it correct that the bonuses were granted from a certain period owned for especially good work output of the inmates."
A They hold you that it would be like that, but in practice it didn't happen like that.
Q According to your description, the bonuses were not granted to a certain category of the inmates as a sort of thanks and as a sort of incitment for good work, but rather independently from the work, they had a certain category of inmates according to the determination which had been made by certain authorities for the camp?
A Yes, in practice that's the way it was.
DR. BELZER: No, I haven't finished yet. I am sorry. I have another ten minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Do I understand that the time is being rationed among the counsel?
DR. BELZER: I have another ten minutes for my questions, if your Honor please.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that an allotment, or do you mean you need ten minutes more?
DR. BELSER: That is not an allotment, if Your Honor please, but I ask the Tribunal to kindly grant me another ten minutes.
Q Mr. Kogon, at one occasion you hear of a man of the name of Sommer and you ask me his Christian name. Unfortunately, I cannot give you the Christian name, because in your book you only stated the name of Sommer, "there is the matter of a certain commander in the concentration camp of Buchenwald."
In order to enable us to identify the man further, I can tell you that this man was in charge of a bunker.
A Yes, Yes. Of course. I heard this name.
Q In connection with this man, you spoke of a Beast Sommer, Bestie Sommer, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q The reason for the remark was that you said that you gave reports of individual members of the concentration camp inmates concerning the description or account of lust murders, sadistic murders, made by this Sommer, is that correct?
A Yes, but not only that, not only these descriptions.
Q Did you yourself have observations concerning this matter?
AAs many of my comrades, I was satisfied with it when I saw that Sommer came through the camp with his black gloves and he beat down everybody who encountered him. I had enough when I saw that and that was sufficient for me to call him a beast.
Q What kind of an instrument did he beat the inmates down with?
A In many cases that was a whip or oxen whip or simply a piece of wood and often there were other instruments which in German you could not term Peitsche, which means whip, any more, but they had the same effect.
Q Did you ever see Sommer with a dog whip?
A During my life I have only seen dog whips which couldn't do much harm, but the whips I saw with Sommer, if they were dog whips, then I have seen them.
Q Where did Sommer go?
A It is thought that he is still living.
Q Is he sitting here in the dock?
A No.
Q Witness, you have testified that you were one of the people who knew of murder committed by the doctors in the concentration camp of Buchenwald. Why, then, Witness, did you not request the camp commander to remove you from your position where you could see these murders?
A Why should I have asked to do that? To know about murders in a concentration camp where every day from morning to evening, from right to left, and from front to end, these murders happened. If there is a responsibility to know about these murders, it is true that the right way for me would have been to try to get removed from the concentration camp.
Q You, therefore, do not think that by continuing to work with Schuler, and Hofer you became an accessory in the crime in one way or the other, for the crimes which these people have been charged with?
THE PRESIDENT: At least, he hasn't been indicted, so it isn't a question for him to determine.
DR. BELZER: If Your Honor please, I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: May I add something, if your Honor please? I ask the Tribunal's permission to explain my position, at least, by two sentences because with the position I hold to the public this point is of extreme importance.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, you may speak.
THE WITNESS: First of all, I have never worked with the camp doctor Dr. Hoven; and I never alleged that I did. Second, the director of the Department for Typhus and Virus Research Dr. Ding-Schuler and I worked together very intimately; but I was only his medical clerk. In not one single instance did I ever take any part at all in any act which could have killed or harmed or even violated one single inmate. It is true that from the summer of 1943 onward until 1945 increasingly I did everything I could in the open as was possible according to the forces I had in order to prevent such acts. Thereby I saved a number of lives, quite a number of lives. Furthermore, I spoke quite openly to Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Ding-Schuler about what I thought of these things.
THE PRESIDENT: That is more than two sentences; but there is no need to defend yourself until you have been accused.
DR. STEIN: Dr. Stein for the defendant Eirenschmalz.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. STEIN:
Q. Witness, yesterday you repeatedly spoke of a man by the name of kammler.
A. Yes.
Q. On that occasion you said that Kammler was not only working for the WVHA but that he also had special tasks which had to do with the V weapons and that he also was under the supervision of the Reich Minister Speer.
Did I understand you correctly on that?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, as far as what happened to Kammler is concerned, nobody knows anything, and therefore the Tribunal cannot gain an impression of Kammler nor an impression of what Kammler was; but I assume that you can tell us sometain about the characteristics of Kammler, especially what his disposition was, whether he was a typical dictator, and so on. That is, please give us a brief description concerning the character and the general disposition of Kammler.
A. According to the descriptions made by the SS officers and especially by Ding-Schuler, Kammler was a younger, very ambitious man, and sometimes a very inciting SS officer, who had on occasion an amiable manner to those with whom he worked and those whom he used in connection with his plans and whom he thought could be used. According to the impression which I gained, he was a typical higher SS officer of the character which does not execute brutalities and inhumane acts themselves but orders them without any consideration and sees to it that they are executed.
Q. Witness, you just said that one of the characteristics of Kammler was ambition. Do you assume that Kammler with regard to tasks of special importance would hand over these tasks to an inferior and to a subordinate, or did Kammler actually execute all these tasks himself?
A. Kammler had certainly kept all the reins of actual decision and control within his own field of authority. Of course, as far as the execution is concerned, he needed quite a staff; and his next subordinates around him were, of course, informed.
Also Dr. Ding-Schuler was informed in quite a number of connections.
Witness, you just said that the immediate subordinates surrounding Kammler were informed, and now you refer to Dr. Ding-Schuler in that connection. Did you know anything about the intimate circle around Kammler as far as his own field of tasks was concerned?
A. Dr. Ding-Schuler very often met Kammler in the restricted area B. When he returned to Buchenwald he told me in some instances that Kammler had been surrounded by a larger staff of intimates and collaborators, and I know that Dr. Ding-Schuler had made intrigues and schemes against some of these collaborators of Kammler's. During these gatherings, there were certain conferences and that is why I made my remark.
Q. Witness, you just spoke of gatherings, of conferences which Kammler had with his staff. What I want to ask you now is whether Kammler had two different kinds of staffs around him, first of all the staff you are speaking of right now--and that probably would have been the staff that came where armament workers were executed; is that correct?
A. Yes, they were SS officers or collaborators of Kammler's whom he had brought with him from Berlin; and these were men from the so-called Jaegerstab in the Armament Ministry and members of the WVHA; but that was not always the case. It varied from one case to the other.
Q. Could you state some names of members of the WVHA who at that time took part in such conferences?
A. I know that Dr. Ding-Schuler once mentioned the Haupstrumfuehrer Gruenefeld of the construction office of the concentration camp of Buchenwald; and he asked him concerning plans which dealt with members, plans which had to be discussed with members of the WVHA during such a conference.
I am not quite sure whether the name of one of these members of the WVHA from Berlin was Kammler or not. I think that I remember; but I'm not quite sure.
Q. Another question, Witness. You just spoke here of the construction department; and I assume that here at the concentration camp Buchenwald there was a construction department, too?
A. Yes, there was a construction office.
Q. Now, this construction office didn't direct all the construction methods which became necessary on the spot and didn't execute these measures?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there sufficient material on the spot, too?
A. Well, that differed. Sometimes there was sufficient material; but in the end, of course, there was quite an insufficient quantity there.
DR. STEIN: Thank you. If your Honor please, I have no further questions.
DR. HAENSEL: Carl Haensel for Georg Loerner.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q. Witness, you have a chart in your book of which we have already talked in the interrogation; and this chart contains food scales. Do you know where that chart comes from?
A. The document which I used for writing my book in this part comes from the magazine "Administration in the Concentration Camp Buchenwald."
The food scale which is mentioned there came from the administration of the concentration camp at Buchenwald; and this administration had received it from its superior office. The allotment was then via the district food office and the Reich Food Ministry.
Q. You just spoke of the Reich Food Ministry. Witness, do you know whether this Reich Food ministry established this food scale?
A. Do you mean here establish or confirm?
Q. No, I mean establish. If we see, for instance, "Meat, 400 grams for 1938 to 1942," then I mean what authority, what agency established this figure of 400 grams as a food scale for the concentration camp inmates and so fourth?
A. I have no clear knowledge as to who was the originator of this food scale. I heard in the concentration camp at that time that as far as food scales were concerned we were assimilated into the normal food scale in the country.
Q. For your personal information the prosecution has submitted two documents in which the food scale was established by the Economic Ministry; but that is only for your information. Now, this food scale which you consider only theoretical, if this food scale had been carried out, would you have considered it as sufficient, somehow sufficient?
A. In order to answer your question, I would have to question you myself. What do you consider sufficient? Sufficient in order not to starve under the conditions of the camp?
Q. Witness, do you think that the people who establish ed this food scale went against their duty, or do you think that they did the best they could under the circumstances?
A. At no point can I see that these people actually violated their duties.
Q. Not even if they belonged to the SS?
A. Not even if they belonged to the SS as far as this particular point is concerned.
Q. But it is apparent that in practice much less was distributed than this food scale on the paper which you just lested there?
A. Yes.
Q. Where does the deficiency come from? From the people who established the food scale or the camp command or where?
A. If the people who established this food scale had to see to it according to the office they had that their orders were actually carried out, then they are also responsible as far as I see it. In a general way I would say that of course all the others who had to deal with the execution and who did not carry it out or sabotaged it are responsible for our being in such a bad way.
THE PRESIDENT: While we are on the subject of food, we'll recess until 1:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 23 April 1947)
THE MARSHAL: All persons in the courtroom will please take their seats. Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. FRITSCH: Dr. Fritsch for the defendant Hans Baier.
BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Dr. Kogon, I have just one question to ask you. During the direct examination you spoke of so called inmate pay. If I am right, you meant those amounts, by that which were transmitted by the relatives to the inmates in the camp, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now that money was sent by postal checks, or money orders, or some other manner into the camp, and was paid out to whom payable in the camp?
A. The money arrived through the channels which had been described by the defense counsel to the concentration camp, and it went to the Inmates Pay Administration Office. From time to time it was announced that all those inmates who had an account with the Inmates Pay Administration could pick up their money, and then the persons who held those accounts were paid off approximately up to thirty marks.
Q. In other words, it occurred that the relatives would send more money, then that certain money stayed behind because no purchase could be effected with that money?
A. Yes. In the camp with reference to certain inmates, there were more large amounts.
Q. Now did you know if those were really accounts, or if the money administration office put the money in certain accounts in a bank?
A. I found out that all accepted amounts of money from Buchenwald were transferred to a Bank Institute in Weimar.
Q. Who was it that actually had a free hand in this money. I might ratify that question. Was it the Camp administration, or some other agency?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Now, I ask yon Dr. Kogon to tell me. if I understood yon correctly yesterday, when you said, that you said I believe verbally, that the WVHA made money on these accounts?
A. I had found out at the concentration camp that the money administration of the WVHA drew the difference from the money which they paid out for a loan delivered to the Reich, and another part they kept themselves. Secondly, in the camp the fact was discussed that the SS administration of the WVHA also had a free hand on the selective marks, which, as I said before, were placed on account of the SS in the Bank institute. For this second part of my statement, I have no other source than this information which I might say is of some value which came from the camp itself.
DR. FRITSCH: No further questions of the witness, Your Honor.
BY DR. GAWLIK: (For defendants Volk and Bobermin)
Q Doctor, if I understand you correctly, you said that knowledge concerning the cruelties in the concentration camps depended on one's position and that that knowledge was larger in the Administration. Is it correct, as I am reading now from the examples that you mentioned yesterday, that under the administration you mean the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps and Amtsgruppe D?
A Yes, those two. However, I did not want to state that differentiations in the knowledge of the conditions in the concentration camps was limited only to that Amtsgruppe.
Q In the course of the years, inmates were employed in factories more and more?
A Yes.
Q And it is also correct that these factories were outside of the protective custody camps, with a few exceptional cases?
A Yes, that is correct.
Q Would you furthermore agree with me, Doctor, if I say that a business manager of such a factory, normally speaking, did not know of the conditions in the protective custody camps, particularly if these factories were at a certain distance from the concentration camp?
A I would say that the knowledge could not possibly have been very large. As we have practically found out in most of the cases, it was a minimum of information. The only source which could be at the disposal of the business manager was the inmates working there, who, then, told of the real happenings in the concentration camps when they were in humane or political contact with that man.
Q Doctor, if this business manager did not have his office at the place where these inmates were being used but, shall we say, at a certain distance from that point and if that business manager had a whole lot of factories to supervise, would you agree with me, Doctor, that then you could not assume that he knew of all those gruesome things that happened in the concentration camps?
A The possibility of such knowledge would be reduced in the way the Defense Counsel puts it, unless there were certain things that occurred, for instance, the circumstance that a member of a factory went to see this business manager in order to tell him explicitly about information received, information of this kind.
Q In order to give you just one concrete example, Doctor, the defendant Bobermin, who is my client, had 222 tile factories. He had his main office in Posen. The office D itself was in Oranienburg, and in one such factory alone in Woloschau, 30 kilometers from Auschwitz, he had inmates who were being used there. Would you agree with me, Doctor, that one could not possibly say that he had knowledge of these gruesome acts?
MR. MC HANEY: If the Tribunal please, I object to the question.
THE PRESIDENT: Objection sustained. That is purely a question for the Tribunal to decide, not this witness.
DR. GAWLIK: Yes. Well, Your Honor, the witness is an expert on concentration camps and conditions there because he dealt with those natters. All I want him to tell me is his opinion. I know quite clearly that this will not be a final judgment and that this witness will not give a final judgment and that this is a question for the Tribunal, but on the basis of his employment with these conditions in the concentration camps, and particularly with respect to how far knowledge of these gruesome acts which undoubtedly prevailed, he is to tell us his opinion of that.
That is all. Of course, I can leave the name out and just take that as an example, if you want me to.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think possibly the difference between the German procedure and the American procedure can not be reconciled. This is perfectly clear to you under your ideas, your German ideas of procedure, and it is perfectly clear to me under our American ideas, and they can not be reconciled. You are asking this witness to decide a question, to give his opinion, his decision in fact, on a question which is exclusively for the Tribunal. I think that we will have to adhere to the American rule. The Tribunal will answer your question by giving its opinion.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, may I then use the question simply as an example?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, put the question, and then I'll see how it sounds.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, now take, for instance, the manager of a great factory with many sister factories distributed over the entire area of the Reich. His main office is not near or with the Inspector or Amtsgruppe D, and in one of his factories he is employing concentration camp inmates. On the basis of your experience, can you answer my question whether in such a case of such a business manager one could undoubtedly assume that he had knowledge of the gruesome acts of the concentration camps?
Is that all right, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: No, it isn't all right, but let's take the answer. Let the witness answer.