Q Did the workers have an opportunity to bathe themselves?
A Originally in the mine for a period of months we did not have any water at all. The prisoners were completely covered with this dust and they were full of dust, and they unable to wash themselves. The prisoners had to help themselves; in that they had to use their urine in order to wash their faces. Later on the camp was established and there also certain showers were installed, and they were able to take one bath there per week. However, a large number of prisoners did not avail themselves of this opportunity because the bath was simultaneously connected with the danger that one could catch lice there. Finally, Dr. Kahr managed to have some few delousing facilities there and then regularly he carried out some delousing procedure. However, these things were not really very effective because, for example, the big branch camp Ellerich, according to a letter from the physician there, did not have any opportunity for three to four months to exchange shirts Although we could repeatedly approach the camp administration, and wrote to Berlin, that very form of delousing was necessary when the people could not change their shirts for a month, and we were told the soldiers at the front are to be given first priority.
We did not have any clothing available. The coldest winter the persons had to go barefooted, and we had to wear wooden shoes, and that is the way they had to go to work, and they had to stand at roll call for hours.
Q What acts of the workers were punished as sabotage, and what was the punishment?
AAt Dora there was a certain camp of the Gestapo, which at the same time was the Counter Intelligence Organization for the armament factory. The Director of this Counter Intelligence group was Obersharfuehrer Sanders. Sanders attempted to leave or to create an impression on Himmler that he was very efficient. For example, whenever some Russians took a piece of wire so that they could tie together their wooden shoes, so they would not lose them, he immediately had the Russians up for sabotage, for sabotaging the production of V-weapons. The smallest taking of material was considered a sabotage, and it was punished by hanging. At a later period of time, Sanders began to hang all these political people in the camp, or by gassing them for having sabotaged armaments, and then after the evacuation of the camp the political prisoners who were located in bunkers were killed off, being shot in the neck.
THE PRESIDENT: I believe the translator wishes to make a correction in the record.
THE INTERPRETER: Tho correction is that the noon meal was not given to the prisoners until 11:30 at night, not at noon.
MR. ROBBINS: I suggest that be read into the German transcript also.
THE WITNESS: In that connection the only thing is that was only one meal he ever received.
MR. ROBBINS: Did you learn of an order - -
THE PRESIDENT: Just a second. While we are on that point. What did this meal consist of?
THE WITNESS: This meal consisted of some sort of soup, onion soup, and there was either some kind of cabbage leaves in it which had partly decayed, or there was some potatoes swimming around in the soup, but in any case, it was a soup which was put together with some other things, and sometimes its contents could not be defined at all.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q What did you receive for a breakfast and for a lunch?
A The so-called breakfast consisted of approximately what we were served in Nurnberg this morning, but were given a cup of coffee without sugar or milk, and a piece of bread in the morning. That was the same way that we received a cup of coffee, and that it was just about as fresh a one as at Nurnberg, it was brewed black, and it was warm, but aside from that it had nothing to do with coffee. Of course it was an extreme rudeness to serve something of that sort to a former concentration camp prisoner. It is true we would be served something like this, but to be served such a brew at Nurnberg I would not have believed. However, I do assume that the Tribunal know just as little about this thing as the WVHA know just how badly the prisoners were treated. To come back to the breakfast, it was a black coffee which only was coffee by name, and then for the entire day we only received one piece bread, and this was a piece very undefinable in its size. Originally it was only one-thirds of a loaf of bread, and then it became one-fifth of a loaf. I can only say that on Christmas of 1939 at Buchenwald as a particular Christmas gift we received one loaf of broad. That was three times the regular size. That was the most beautiful Christmas gift which I ever received. It was almost unbelievable for us, that we would be given a whole loaf of bread, and then that we divided it up for ourselves, that is on Christmas Eve, and that we would have a loaf and not one-third of a loaf of bread. On Christmas Eve you can imagine what that bread meant in the concentration camp. The noon meal consisted of soup, and then in addition to that we had a so-called supper. This originally consisted of one piece of sausage, and then the sausage came to an end that we were to eat, and then we were given a Viking salad.
This was some sort of raw vegetable of an inferior quality, and ninety percent of the camp inmates, despite their hunger, were unable to eat this Viking salad, because from the hospital inmates had been warning people of eating of this garbage, because regularly they had been suffering from dissentary, and later complications. Later on they became sick whenever they would eat it there, therefore, it was unfit to eat. It was very good only in order to cleanse our mouths as a mouthwash. Then we received these pieces of bread, and in addition we received one piece of synthetic margarine, but of course, it was of very low nutritious value, so other than that we received nothing, On one occasion at Buchenwald we did not receive anything at all for a week, because it was alleged that a pig had been stolen, which, of course, the commandant had stolen himself.
Q Well, there were still some prisoners who were able to obtain some additional food?
A That is correct, there were prisoners in the administration, in the orderly room who had an opportunity to organize something for themselves. However, you must not forget that it was a small number of prisoners who had this opportunity. It hardly amounted to one percent of the entire camp personnel, and that ninety-nine -percent of those had to suffer from hunger, and that is why they died, even if same of then were beatened, or shot, or gassed. In 1944 we received 1,500 Jews from Budapest. These Jews were somewhat too soft and they were not strong enough for the hard conditions in the camp. In January not a single one of the Jews was alive, although not a single one of them was shot or beatened, but it was they all died from exhaustion.
Q Was there a crematorium at Dora?
A Yes, Dora also had a crematorium. Originally the corpses were sent to Buchenwald. However, this became too difficult. It was too embarrassing when drunk SS drivers lost half of the corpses along the way, and people who went to church in the morning looked at the corpses lying in the stree dead, or stumble over them, and that is the reason why we were furnished with cur own crematorium.
However, within a short period of time that was already insufficient, and then we had to start digging big trenches where by day and night the corpses were burned.
Q You say the corpses were burned in an open fire?
A Yes, there were so many corpses that the capacity of both the crematorium stoves were insufficient, because every day trucks came and unloaded like sand when put in the place constructed, after which the lid was taken off of there, and hundreds of corpses fell down to the ground. We would have been unable to burn these corpses in stoves for ten years.
Q Did you get any idea how far the stench from the open fires could then be detected?
A It is not, of course, very far. It could be smelled to Salza, which was located several kilometers away, and all the people claimed that the smell of corpses could be detected right at Salza, and sometimes parts of dust were carried by the air. In many cases the fire could be seen by and up to the camp of Nordhausen. Of course, the flames went very high up into the air, and in many cases the population did not like the smell very much.
Q Do you know whether Kammler was in Dora very often?
A Kammler visited Dora very frequently. I can claim that because my camp physician immediately had to put on his beautiful uniform, and he had to bow and scrape, and I was an office clerk, and I can say I always went out of my way to get away when high officials who came in the place, or when Kammler arrived. On one occasion I had very bad experience. A very high official arrived at the pathological section at Buchenwald, and the idea was that they came just the moment that I was a prisoner wearing a white overcoat, and he came in with a "Heil Hitler" and introduced himself with all his medals on. All I could answer him was, "Prisoner No. 5975," and then this high official asked for my name, and he said, "Well, you are the Ackerman I know."
Very well, after all I discovered that he had been seated next to me at some banquet. Than he told the commandant, "this is a very dangerous of National Socialism. He has written the worst articles against us, but anyway I always liked to read then." I would have lost my life if the commandant had not been a reasonable man. Then he said, "now I know that you are this pig, Ackermann, but in any case I still like to read your articles."
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal 2 is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Herr Ackermann, you have told us that you made out the death certificates in Dora-- the workers who died. Will you tell us whether you usually put down the true cause of death? Give us the circumstances in that connection.
A. In Dora, yes; but not in Buchenwald.
Q. What did you usually put down as the cause of death?
A. In Buchenwald the proceedings were that the doctor who was present at the autopsy dictated to me what I had to write down. And it happened frequently that somebody came in from the bunker whose skull had been bust open, who had obviously died, therefore, by force. And when I asked what he died of, the doctor would dictate, with an ironical glance at me, "heart disease," or "tuberculosis of the lungs" Originally, we put down "collapse" in many cases because that was really the cause in the cases of people who collapsed on the roll call. For instance, from exhaustion. There was never a roll call when the order was not given: "Stretcher bearer, to the gate." And then the corpses would be collected which were lying about in the parade ground. They had collapsed from sheer exhaustion during the roll call and the collapse was the actual medical cause of death. But then an order came from Berlin: one must not mention collapse as a cause of death; that is a swindle. Then the doctors would dictate different causes of deaths. Even when the man had been beaten to death. The same thing applied to death-by-shooting. It was an unwritten law that somebody who had been shot while trying to escape, or shot at while trying to escape --even if the wound was comparatively small-- on the same day he had to die from that shot wound. There were people whose legs had just been scratched a little by a wound, and they would have been able to carry on, but on the same day they had to be reported dead-from-shooting. The man was killed by an injection, but the report had to be made that he died from the shot wound. Whereas in reality he died by the injection given by Dr. Eissel, or some other camp doctor.
Q. What was usually given as the cause of death for the prisoners whose skulls had been beaten in?
A. Heart failure, blood disturbances, TB, liver diseases -- or anything; just as the man felt that day.
Q. You said that you knew that Kammler was at Dora very often. Do you know whether other people came with him?
A. Kammler, as a rule, came accompanied by a whole staff of people. Otherwise, also, important people used to call at Dora in order to see how the --They would be announced by telephone. It would say, "Kammler arrives in a quarter of an hour." And the camp doctor would stand ready to receive him, and the camp commandant would put on his best uniform and when Kammler came people would drink until two o'clock in the morning. "Please look after my wife," the commandant would say. "She doesn't like sleeping alone; and stay there until I come back." And that lasted usually until three or four in the morning.
Q. Do you know the names or the positions held by those who visited Dora with Kammler?
A. I cannot give you a very precise statement here but we did know that the building staff, it was, of the WVHA, under which the camp was. We also wrote direct letters to the WVHA on several subjects which were concerned with building and construction. I recall, for instance, that in as late as Spring, 1945, that is to say, the beginning of March, they wrote letters in order to get timber to the camp. We wrote to the WVHA because the building manager there told us the best thing would be to apply to the central office there. "You will get it earlier that way."
Q. Do you recall what Amtsgruppe in the WVHA you had contact with?
A. Mainly, the medical department to Department D-III, the doctor in charge there, who was in connection with Dr. Lolling. We also wrote to different departments, but with the best of intentions, I can not recall what departments they were.
Q. Do you know whether Dr. Blatzer, Dr. Kahr, and Dr. Kahr's successor reported to Kammler on the conditions of workers in Dora?
A. Yes. Not only did we write to Dr. Lolling, but we wrote frequently and repeatedly to Kammler: so-called monthly reports and quarterly reports. In those reports we pointed out that hygienic and medical conditions in the camp, food conditions, were catastrophic. And in particular we pointed out that the purpose of inmate labor would be damaged if the inmates would fall ill by necessity after a short time, would become unable to work. And, therefore, we requested that additional food should be supplied, conditions should be improved, and hours of work should be shortened. These reports went regularly to Kammler. I typed them myself. And the camp doctor, Dr. Kahr, would sign them.
Q. Did these reports indicate that the death rate in Dora was unusually high?
A. The reports were most instructive. We made graphical charts which showed clearly how death rates would increase as a consequence, and how it would be possible to improve conditions.
Q. Do you know whether copies of these reports went out from your office to other persons, persons other than Kammler?
A. At this moment I do not recall, but we wrote to all sorts of offices in order to achieve improvements in the camp.
Q. You do not recall any particular office that you wrote to in that connection?
A. Today, after so long a time, I can no longer say. There were letters to the WVHA, as a sort of channel address, and underneath we would quote certain departments who should receive our letters. But what departments they were-- I can no longer say precisely because for two years now we have been trying to forget everything which we went through for so many years.
Q. Herr Ackermann, you have said that you saw, that you have seen the correspondence that went through the office in which you were working. Do you remember seeing the term "14-F-13" in any of this correspondence?
A. Yes. Secret orders arrived one day which said, "In the next time an action 14-F-13 will occur. A secret list has to be drawn up and given to the doctors in charge of Oranienburg, and names and numbers of the inmates concerned must be given. The transports must be proposed in the near future. New orders must be given." I asked my doctor at that time at Dora, Dr. Kahr, what nonsense 14-F-13 would stand for. "Why don't people say immediately: People will be gassed?" He told me, this means the insane people. "What shall we do with our people?"
The best thing for you to do is to write nothing at all and then people would remind us afterward why nothing had been done about 14F13 and we said we have nobody. I was tempted to say that the only insane people who are in our camp are the SS men, but I did not want to rask anything because once I got into trouble because I wired to Lolling one of the female prisoners had a baby and I sent a telegram to Lolling as it was information in connection with the camp and I did wire to Lolling that the woman had a baby and that mother and child were doing well, and Lolling tipped me off, but we inmates celebrated this thing, although Kammler took a very poor view.
Q. Do you know if this order, 14F13 came from Lolling?
A. 14F13 was signed by Lolling, yes, and the report was also sent to Lolling.
Q. You saw this order? Did you see this order?
A. I saw the order and I filed it among my files, filed it like everything else.
Q. Was this signed by Lolling?
A. That again was signed by Lolling, and we wrote to Lolling after the transport left. We sent a teletype letter actually.
Q. Did you see an order in the correspondence in your office concerning castration of homo-sexuals?
A. Yes. Repeated orders of that type would arrive. The names of the inmates concerned were given. This action was concerned with inmates who had come from other camps to our camp and sometimes the doctor in charge would work very slowly and the castration which had been ordered had not been accomplished at the previous camp so, therefore, we had to carry it out in our camps, but we used sterilization instead of castration.
Dr. Kahr always opposed this measure because we both were of the opinion that the Krieg would not last much longer and therefore we hald off and explained that we had inadequate operation measures in our camp and not sufficient medical supplies there. We were again reminded to do it, again, but we deferred. At Dora in any case no castration was carried out nor any sterilization, whereas in Buchenwald, it happened all the time.
Q. Did this order come from Lolling?
A. That order again was signed by Lolling and reports were sent back to Lolling.
Q. Herr Ackermann, what is your present position?
A. For one year and a half I an the Director of the Municipal Information Offices of the town of Munich. I am also a correspondent in the newspaper, "Die Walt" of Hamburg, and I am a journalistic collaborator with a number of newspapers.
MR. ROBINS: That is all.
CROSS*EXAMINATION BY DR. SIEDL (Attorney for the Defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q. Witness, before you answer my question, would you please make a short pause in order to enable the translator to finish translating my question?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Among other things you stated that the Buchenwald Camp frequently visited by people and three installations would be shown to them; one was the canteen of the camp. Apart from the fact that very few things could be bought there, what impression would visitors gain from that canteen?
A. Well, a naive visitor would feel it very nice, but he saw inmates near the canteen in their rags and in the immediate neighborhood of the canteen he would see inmates who had bleeding wounds.
The purpose of the inspection was essentially to give the visitor completely false impressions, but who had eyes to see had to see that this beautiful canteen was purely for purposes of demonstrations. Once he reported to the Pathological Department and saw these skeletons and saw the collections of tattoes which was inspected by all visitors with a certain amount of curiosity and when he looked at the shrunken skulls and when, in particular, he listened to my lecture, even the most stupid visitor must get the real impression. I, myself, on purpose, would tell people "what you see here are a hundred different drugs, and the different parts of the human heart. One looks like the other and still there are 100 different diseases of the heart to be seen here. Workers who work heavily here suffer from heart diseases very soon. The aorta extends, the tissue would extend. If we had 50 deaths a day, at least 30 of them died of heart failure." I said that to open people's eyes, and once I listened through the key hole and heard how the camp commander told the visitors. He said, "We will visit the Pathological Department and Scientific Research," and we will see all the corpses." One man asked, "How many people died?" He said, "8 to 10 a day." "8 to 10 a day?" said the visitor. "0, Good Lord, no" the camp commander said. "8 to 10 a month." And then he come in the room with his visitors. I showed them the TB. I said, "Gentlemen, here you see all types of TB. You shall see these have been locked up, have been closed. Unfortunately, we have people who suffer from bad lungs and if we had them unlocked---"
And I took my book, and it was a large book and it had big letters and it had numbers, and you could see at once, you could see at one glance how many people had died and I told them to tell the people what you must have seen, what the living conditions here are and in some cases the people really would see what it was. In one case, the commandant went out first and the visitor crept up to me and asked me how many people are dead here and are they being, killed and what was taking place and I said tell the people outside that there are many dead, but don't quote me. They were interested in these tattoos and they wanted the tattoos, just the small tattoos and I was delighted to give it to them. We put it in their pockets, because we thought outside in their small circles people will tell their friends in the form of boasting or perhaps they will talk about it any way that people in concentration camps are being killed in that manner. In one case even, I told the member of the party and I told them the really interesting things are not here. We have a really interesting room which you must see, because at that time many inmates, had been hung in this cinema hall and in the evening cinemas would be shown for inmates which was quite good business for the SS. It was not only humane reasons for it. They were charged 20 Pfennigs for the cinemas and they made good business through these cinema shows. And I told them to go to the canteen, or, rather, to go to the cinema, and you can see something there, and when they were to be lead into the hospital one of the visitors said rather suddenly to the camp leader, "Let's see a cinema hall," and the commandant said, "It is nothing. We only show films there," and the visitor said, "I would like to see the cinama hall."
The camp commandant did not even know that people did hang there because Buchenwald was so large and he had not heard. There was something like 20 to 25 people would hang from there. They were particular that they would create a good impression. I believe the commandant never found out why the man insisted on seeing the cinema hall, that morning. People saw quite a lot. They did not see everything, but they must have seen that a concentration camp was not a recreation camp and they had to see what that meant to the public outside, what it meant with people who inspected a concentration camp because if had purely been a penal penitentiary, people would have been so frightened--
Q. So when visitors came to the camp the camp commandant would tend to show the better side of the camp to his visitors. They showed the operating theaters, for instance, which was very well equipped or other installations which you mentioned.
A. It was avoided to show the people the worst, but it was also intended at the same time to show the people that a concentration camp, as they put it, is a harsh school for those who are not sufficiently national. It was intended to impress the people. It was not intended overestimate the conditions where people worked, because all those people would try to get in the concentration camp, because it was not nice in war-time Germany. They wanted to show that everything was well organized, but they did not wish to give the impression that we lived in comfort, otherwise nobody would have been allowed to visit the camp. I think they approached the hospital at the end of the camp and the visitors would see the columns of inmates and they saw how jews were treated like horses.
They had to drag these heavy carts along. Nobody could avoid seeing these things, but, of course, they were not taken to places where they were being shot or were hanging down from trees, but they saw sufficiently and I think it was part of the purpose of these inspections to show people, how "we look after these people who aren't our friends." We don't treat them well," but of course, one did not want to speak of the fact that they were being murdered.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
DR. HOFFMAN: Hoffman for the defendant Scheide.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the name of Sanders at Ohrdruf or Dora.
A. His name is Sanders.
Q. What sort of a man was Sanders?
A. He was not a human being, he was an animal, a beast.
Q. Did Sanders act on orders or as he saw fit?
A. The orders were so elastic that Sanders could commit murders and the murders were still in accord with the orders given, because Himmler and his subordinates were very generous in these things.
Q. Witness, you mentioned Kahr, the SS doctor. When Kahr came to the camp, was he a humane man from the beginning although he was a member of the SS?
A. Kahr was a humane man from the beginning. He offered to see me on the very first day. There was another SS Hauptscharfuehrer present in the room and he stood about in the room and Kahr told him, "Now, if I want to talk to somebody, please leave the room. Get out." Then Kahr turned the key in the lock, and I was a little skeptical. It looked to me as though he wanted to finish me off then and there, but he fetched a bottle and two glasses and poured out the stuff, and then he told me, "Dear Ackermann, I have every confidence in you. You are a reasonable and sensible man and a decent man. I heard about you. I want you to give me your confidence. I came into the SS by the merest accident. I am a Catholic. I am very national minded and I believed that all was well. I was even a National Socialist. At least I believe I was a National Socialist, but you know these murderers. I have nothing in common with these murderers here. These murderers, they are something completely different and I despise them. I am ashamed to wear this uniform, and I tell you, I want to help the inmates wherever I can. And let us drink to that." And he took that view wherever he could. There were more conferences among the leaders after which he would then come to me and he told me what the camp leaders intended.
"There is going to be a house search and please get rid of everything which the camp leader could use against you." Whenever the labor assignment leader, Simon, decided punishment, for instance, when Simon saw an inmate doing the work making reports, he described him as an idler, and he put him on a heap of stones day and night until the inmate crawls up on top of that pile and was usually sent to the hospital with inflamation of the lungs and died.
Kahr got rid of all that despite the protests of the labor assignment leader. The labor assignment leader appealed to Berlin, Kammler, and protested about Kahr, but Kahr stuck to his guns. Despite all resistance he made improvements step by step. He never gave in although he became an object of hatred on the part of all of the camp leaders.
Q. Witness, now if you compare those two very different types wearing the same uniform, what is your explanation of that difference which you observed in the camp?
A. I would like to tell you here the two types were not equally represented in the SS. The type Sanders represented the overwhelming majority, and the type Dr. Kahr was so negligible in number that in many experiences in the camps of Dachau, Buchenwald, and Dora I remember only three SS leaders, in Buchenwald SS Dr. Lewe who is now interned at Garnisch, and in Dora Dr. Kahr and Dr. Kurzke. Dr. Kurzke is my guest at home and I am sharing my meager rations with him. Such a man is my friend and he is a man who was so decent that, when in November 1944 he joined us, he cried and told me he is leaving this camp; he is going to desert. He cannot stand it. That man took the simplest Russian by the hand. "Forgive me. I am a member of the SS but don't hold it against me. I don't belong to those. What can I do for you?"
This happened also, but these were exceptional cases, but these exceptional cases must be mentioned also.
Q. Witness, then you described the death of Dr. Steidle to us today. I would like to ask one question here. You told us that Dr. Steidle was told that he was going to be shot while trying to escape tomorrow.
A. Yes.
Q. Now was that an arbitrary measure on the part of the Scharfuehrer, or was there an order from the RSHA?
A. That was not an arbitrary act on the part of the Scharfuehrer. The man was Haupt or Oberscharfuehrer Blank who was formerly in Dachau. When I was in the bunker of Dachau like a dog, in an underground bunker, Blank killed thousands of people there. Blank was always used when there was a murder going on. He was a specialist. He was a poacher with many convictions who was a sportsman skilled as far as the killing of men and beasts were concerned. Blank's orders were to carry out all the executions which had been ordered from above. When the former deputy of the Reichstag, Kraemer, and the former deputy, Wichs, when those two were liquidated together, they were liquidated by Blank; that is to say, the commandant would have them arrested, throw them into the bunker, and two days later they went on a transport with Blank but would not come back or came back as corpses. Dr. Hoven took them to the crematorium at midnight under very secret conditions. Nobody must be seen or found. Blank, therefore, was a man who liked pulling the trigger, but in these cases he did not act on his own initiative but he acted on orders.
Q. Where would they come from?
A. Well, the SS system was not careless enough to give a written order to an inmate here, but if you talk to people, to SS people who were in the department at Buchenwald, you might find out perhaps who gave the order. Single cases which happened could be proved, such as cases in Dora; for instance, Dr. Kurzke, who is my guest at this point, who, incidentally, half an hour after the British - after the British occupied Bergen-Belsen he was released and is still free. He told me just before I left recently that Hauptsturmfuehrer B. Ischoff, who was the highest Gestapo chief of the Nordhausen area, when drunk signed about ninety death sentences but inmates did not get these orders into their hands, but still they were orders.
But if you could find a decent SS man from Buchenwald who worked in the political department and has information, you will certainly find that order. They were certainly given.
DR. HOFFMANN: No further questions.
DR. FRITSCH: Dr. Fritsch for defendant Baier.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, in your direct examination or your cross-examination you talked about the fact that you had a lot of correspondence with the WVHA. Would you please be kind enough to tell me again with what departments you had this correspondence?
A. I said before that I can no longer remember what sub-departments were concerned there. All I knew at the time it does not go to Lolling, but it goes to the WVHA and some sub-department would be mentioned on the envelope which accompanied some letter which had reached us, so it did not stick to my memory and I cannot say this today any longer.
Q. To what locality were these letters addressed?
A. They were all sent to Oranienburg.
Q. And in Oranienburg was the department of Dr. Lolling, was it not?
A. Yes, it was, and I assume they went via Lolling to the WVHA.
Q. Do you know that the WVHA consisted of several office groups (Amtsgruppen)?
A. Yes, indeed, I know that.
Q. Do you know what rank the department or group or the office of Dr. Lolling - what rank did that office hold?
A. Dr. Lolling was Office Group D-III.
A. That is to say, an independent office?
A. An independent office? I cannot judge that. Independent? Nobody was independent. We were not independent. Lolling was not indepen dent.