A. If it was worth exploiting and how large it was, etc. There were negotiations for the purchase of that quarry with Vienna, because Vienna owned that quarry and that was the reason why I went to see that quarry before we could but it, in order to gain some sort of an impression about the locations and the view of exploiting it.
Q. And for whom were you purchasing the quarry? Was that for the DEST?
A. Yes, it was bought by the DEST.
Q. And you supervised the negotiations for the purchase?
A. Well, no, not I, personally. I participated in it, but I believe that at that time it was Salpeter, who did that. I couldn't tell you for sure.
Q. But it was under his jurisdiction?
A. Yes, of course.
Q I ask you if about two or three weeks later, you recall having made another trip with the same two persons, namely Eicke and Hubert Karl, Sturmbannfuehrer, to Flossenbuerg, a place where Flossenbuerg camp was later erected?
A. Yes, I was there too.
Q. What was the purpose of your trip?
A. The same. The purpose was the same, namely, the possibility of making use of a marble quarry and to see how these quarries could be used..
Q. Did you make recommendations as to the location of the camp?
A. No, the location of the concentration camp was selected by Eieke and was also decided by him and the quarry was a granite quarry and not marble.
Q. In both of these instances, both in Mauthausen and Flossenbuerg, were the quarries acquired by the DEST?
A. Yes, they were later on purchased by the DEST.
Q. And the reason for it being located--the reason for the camp being located in this particular place was so that the inmate labor could be used in exploiting the quarry, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. I show you again Document NO-620, which we were discussing this morning, the chart of the Main Office, Building and Construction. It's true, is it not that there was a labor allocation under your jurisdiction in each of the concentration camps at the period which this chart represents, namely, 1939 to 1942; there was a representative of your office in the concentration camp, was there not?
A. No, that is not quite correct the way you put it. I had no representative of my office in the concentration camps who was dealing or who was allegedly dealing with the labor assignment, because the labor assignment leaders who were used as of 1942 were agents of the camp commandant. They were not subordinate to me.
Q. The Office I-5, which was the Prison Labor Allocation Office, allocated inmate labor to the various industries, did it not?
A. Yes, that is correct. This work was to be carried out within the framework of Amt. I. However, as I said before, this Main Office I-5, was soon transferred to the Inspectorate of the Concentration Camps and thus subordinated, or, rather, thus my authority was elimated. I believe that this Main Department I-5 was not installed immediately in February 1939, but as I recall, it was only established later. I believe it was in 1940.
Q. You said this morning that Office I-5 was incorporated into the Inspectorate a few months after the Main Office, Building and Construction was created in 1939. I should like to show you Document NO-2315 and ask you if, as a matter of fact, it wasn't 1941 when this transfer took place. The first paragraph says the Main Department I-5 is being dissolved, effective 30 September 1941. Does that refresh your recollection?
A. Yes, that's correct. I thought it was 1940, but apparently it is 1941, as it says here. I believe that Department had not already been established in 1939 with the formation of the main office, because as far as I can recall, the transfer into the Inspectorate took place because from Berlin within the frame work of the Main Office, it did not have the power of action, and because the inspector had to be in the camp most of the time.
That was the reason why it was dissolved in the Main Office and transferred. The why and when the camp was dissolved is correct, as it says here.
Q. I suppose we will have to get a document if the date Amt. 1-5 was created. You now say it was not created in 1939?
A. I don't believe so. I believe it was formed a little bit later.
Q. This morning you said it was 1940.
A. Yes, Yes, that is correct. I said that this morning and I still couldn't tell you the exact date. I am only starting from the fact that I remember well. I am stating that this Department I-5 only stayed in the Main Office for a very short time.
Q. Did this office handle the payment for the concentration camp guards, the Death Head Units?
A. No.
Q. No, I am sorry. I don't mean that. I meant, I mean the Main Office, Administration and Economy?
A. The economy and the payment of the Death Head Units were in that Department, because part of the entire economy of the Special Troop Tasks were there or in the Waffen-SS resources. In other words, the expenses for the Death Head Units were included in the total budget.
Q. Is that also true for the concentration camp commander?
A. Yes, the expenses for the concentration camps were also cut in that particular budget, including the personnel expenses. There was also the pay for the concentration camp inmates.
Q. And which Amt. was that? Was that I?
A. Yes, it was Amt. I budget. This Amt. I budgeted the entire Reich Budget for all units, organizations of the SS were compiled, which were financed by Reich means.
Q. And prior to 1939 the Berwaltungsamt had taken care of payment to the concentration camp commanders?
A. No, you have to differentiate here between payment and budget. Neither in the WVHA nor in the main office did we have anything to do with the payment and the Administrative Department. In other words, the payment of the funds which were created by the State went through the lower levels. That was not the task of the Main Office or of Amt. I. After all, we were nothing but a treasury.
Q. I am referring to Office III, A-3, correction, Office 2c. You told us this morning that this was under the Amt. for building and construction and that it was in charge of building concentration camps is that correct? It is called Concentration Camps and Police?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And after 1939, concentration camps at Auschwitz were erected, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And also in Neuengamme?
A. Yes, all these camps were built later on, after 1939.
Q. That is true of Lublin, Stutthof, Natzweiler, Gross Rosen?
A. Yes.
Q. Bergen Belsen?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you turn to your Document Book No. 2, or to Document R-129, which is on page 69 of the German?
It is on page 66 of the English and it is Exhibit No. 40. This is a letter from you to Himmler, is it not?
A. 69? Do you mean Document C-1063?
Q. Perhaps I have the wrong page. It is R-129 of the German.
A. It is on page 70.
Q. This is a letter from you to Himmler, dated 3 April 1942, and there you say that at the outbreak of the war, 1939, the following camps were in existence: Dachau, Sachsenhausen, Buchenwald, Mauthausen, Flossenburg and Ravensbrueck, is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Then from '40 to 42 nine other camps were erected as follows: Auschwitz, Nevengamme, Gusen, Natzweiler, Gross-Rosen, Lublin, Niederhagen, Stutthof and Arveitsdorf. Then you report these fifteen camps conformed to the organization of the old concentration camps in regard to duties, work, composition of commanding staff, and discipline in camp for protective custody. For instance, in these fifteen camps the following special duties have been assigned: "To the SS Special Camp Hinzert commanding staff and guards are under my order." Do you see that? Paragraph 3-4, "Commanding staff and guards are under my orders."
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. It is correct that the guards and the commanding staff in each of these camps were under your order, is it not?
A. Yes, that is to be understood in the following way, namely: That commandintur and the guard detail for the Waffen-SS of the concentration camps, and, therefore, being acquainted with the chart they were subordinated to me.
Q. In paragraph 4 you say, "I think it right to submit such plans, that is, for the creation of a camp for the protection of youth at Muhunger, for the protection of youth at Uckermark, and camp for protection of youth at Litzmannstadt. I think it is right to submit such plans to SS-WVHA, which they may plan and carry out uniformly by one authority for SS and Police, so as it is now.
Were such plans submitted to you?
A. No. I heard about them, the Fuehrungshauptamt, that they had participated as RSHA, but they were like their own competency, that is, on the operation of the Main Office. The suggestion which I am making here is the fact that according to all possible plans that could exist, one central main office was to deal with those matters, and not several of the main offices, namely the task that the Inspectorate had already been incorporated into the WVHA, and, as to the transfer of the, because this would make things easier.
Q. Then you say that your recommendation is this respect was not followed?
A. No, I can not say that in here. In order to avoid a muddle, I made a candid suggestion after I heard about it. However, how far these plans of the other two departments were, I could not tell you.
Q. With respect to plans of later on, I would like to call your attention to your testimony of last week, on May 16th, and where counsel asked you at page 1,284, "If you participated in a meeting which took place with the commanders of concentration camp at Oranienburg," and you gave this answer: "I did not participate in one single official meeting which the chief of Inspectorate at Oranienburg had with the concentration camp commanders." I'll ask you to look at sub-paragraph 3 under Roman II, and see if you would like to change your testimony. There you say, "I have gathered together all the leaders of former Inspectorate of concentration camps, all camp commandants, and all managers and supervisors of work, on the 23 and 24 April 1942." Did you attend this meeting that you reported to Himmler?
A. This absolutely complies with the statement I made before, namely, that I personally did not participate in any official conversation of commandants at Oranienburg. I recently drew your attention to the fact that the only meeting in which I participated with the commandants, and in which we discussed official questions was the one which took place on the 23 or 24 April, but as to that conference in Berlin, which was after the incorporation of the Inspectorate into the WVHA, which became necessary in order to give instructions to the commanders as to the administrative work, that is what I always said.
Q. Excuse me, may I ask if you would kindly shorten your answers, as in this case I asked you merely do you want to change your testimony, and your answer would simply be, no, in this case. I would like to point out, however, that in that time you did not make any inspection; you just now made the statement, and then you say, I did not participate in one single meeting with the chief of Inspectorate and concentration camp commandants. I direct your attention also to paragraph 4, where is said, "The transfer of the Inspectorate of concentration camp to the Main Office Economic and Administrative has been carried out under full agreement of all Main Offices concerned, the collaboration of all authorities go on without any question." Do you recall last week you testified there was no collaboration between the Main Offices?
A. Yes, that is correct, too.
Q. That is not consistent with the statement you made to Himmler, is it?
A. In the other Main Offices in reference to this incorporation of the Inspectorate, there was no conference. In any case I can not recall that I participated with any of my collaborators, or that any of my collaborators ever had any conference with other offices, or main officers. It was responsible under Gluecks, namely that Gluecks said that to the WVHA, and that there was no conference, and the Inspectorate had no contact with other Main Offices.
Q. I am not talking about what Gluecks said. I am talking about what you said. What does this mean if it does not mean there was some conference with the Main Offices. It said, "That if transfer of the Inspectorate to the WVHA has been carried out under full agreement of all Main Office, collaboration of all authorities go on without any protection. Abolishment of lack of collaboration in concentration camp has failed everywhere," and so forth?
A. It said that the transfer, sofar as I can read it and it is written pretty badly, it was the full agreement of all Main Offices concerned, and concerned with participating were the WVHA, or the Fuehrungshauptamt, which was the Inspectorate that belonged to them, which had joined, and the RSHA, the Reich Security Main Offices; that is to say, three out of twelve that were counted conferences in this matter, so far as I can recall, never did take place, at least, I did not lead one of them.
Q. The concentration camp commandants were also head or leaders of the various SS Industries in the various concentration camps, were they not?
A. Yes. At the same time, I never nominated or appointed them managers --- Enterprise managers for the same reasons I mentioned before.
Q. And they were paid by the SS Industry?
A. Yes, by the Enterprises, yes. That is, out of the fund of those Enterprises.
Q. You say you never attended any conferences with the Concentration camp commandants?
A. I myself did have one conference on 23 or 24 April, as I have described before.
Q. Is that the only one you ever had with them? As a matter of fact, did not you almost always have supper with them the day before they had their official meetings at Oranienburg?
A Yes, I have already said that, namely, that you have to differentiate here between the official conferences at Oranienburg and the evening meals the night before, and it depended entirely on the time which I had, and it either took place in Berlin or in Oranienburg itself, but that had nothing to do with the official conferences.
Q What was discussed in these conferences at the supper?
A Well, whatever you discuss on those conferences, whatever one discusses at dinner, because the concentration-camp commandants met every two or three months, and the next one or two or three days they had enough opportunity to discuss certain matters. Therefore, there was no reason to discuss those same matters during supper, because it was just a friendly meeting with the camp commandants.
Q Did they talk to you about the industries in the concentration camps in these meetings?
A No, neither did I have a speech, nor did I speak about official matters. We just had our meal together and then that was all.
THE PRESIDENT: You said this was usually held in the officers' mess, did you not?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And no special guests were invited, but anyone who wanted to could drop in for the meal?
THE WITNESS: Yes. It was no special occasion on which I would have invited guests, or I would have ordered people to be there. That was just within the framework of the natural supper.
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Did your staff usually accompany you when you attended the bi-monthly meetings of the commandants, the camp commandants?
THE WITNESS: I did not quite understand the translation in German. Would you please repeat, your Honor?
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Yes. I understood you to say in answer to a question put by Mr. Robbins that every two or three months the camp commandants would gather and that you would attend those meetings. Now I am asking you whether your staff usually accompanied you to these meetings?
THE WITNESS: I remember exactly that whenever I drove to Oranienburg I drove out there all by myself. At most I was accompanied by my adjutant, but nobody else was present. I know that for sure.
Q (By Mr. Robbins) You say these meetings took place how often?
A Well, it was not very regular. I would say approximately every two months.
Q It is a fact, isn't it, that you often had individual conferences with camp commandants, that is conferences with the commandants individually?
A No, I cannot recall that commandants arrived there single. Maybe there were one or two cases, but they were just exceptional cases, either on some private matter or what-have-you, but not official.
Q Irrespective of the supper meetings, it is a fact, isn't it, that you often conferred with the individual commandant when you visited a concentration camp?
A Whenever I was in a concentration camp, of course, I spoke to the concentration camp commandant. He took me around. He accompanied me during my tours.
Q Turning to the next document, NO-504, I would like to ask you if from your collaboration with high-rank officials, and from your position in the SS, you can confirm the fact that the Reich planned to maintain a certain number of the concentration camps after the war? That is assuming, of course, that Germany should win the war?
A Yes.
Q That is in the document, is it not, NO-504?
A Well, at the end of the war we could not have been able to dissolve all the concentration camps at the same time. However, it was the intention of the Reich Government to eliminate a certain number of concentration camps, or then to keep a certain number of concentration camps active as penitentiaries. I couldn't tell for sure. But according to this document, NO-504, and according to the personnel strength, there would remain concentration camps that were there. At the end of the war there would remain approximately eleven still in use, and peacetime state funds had been put at their disposal, or overheads had to be.
Q I suggest that you let me just ask the questions, and you answer them just as briefly as you can, and if there is any particular point in the document which I wish to call your attention to, I will ask about it. Now, these camps that were to be continued after the end of the war were to be carried on the budget of the Waffen SS?
A Yes.
Q And this document shows, does it not, that in 1941, the budget plan, that there would be seven concentration camps after the war, and in 1942 that figure had been increased to eleven?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what the figure had been expanded to for 1943?
A In 1943? He did not discuss that matter, and I did not give any figure of that.
Q How is it that you discussed the peacetime budget in 1942 and had previously discussed it in 1941, but did not discuss it for 1943?
A I personally knew nothing in detail about it because I myself did not preside over the budget conference. I believe that it was the last budget conference which ever took place. That was '42. After that there were no further conferences, I believe,
Q In addition to the eleven concentration camps there was to be one concentration camp for women and two for youths, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know the names of the two camps for youth that were planned to be continued?
A Well, I believe we only had two or three. That is Mohrungen and Ravensbrueck. They, however, were subordinate to the Reichs Criminal Police Office.
Q I would like to draw your attention to a statement that you made last week at Page 1259 of the record, and you stated there that it was your duty during the early days of the WVHA to administer the money of the members who supported the SS with funds.
Can you give us some idea as to what circle of the people this constituted and how their moneys were collected?
A Yes. Well, what do you mean, what funds.
Q From whom were these funds contributed, or collected, rather?
A Well, I do not know if you mean the organization of the Foerdernde Mitglieder. Generally speaking we received our money from the party or from the Reich, and apart from that, after a certain date, I believe up to the outbreak of the war, there was the organization of the Foerdernde members, these people who supported the general SS with voluntary contributions.
Q Was this SS-FM organization composed exclusively of SS members?
A Yes. Well, the members of that organization did not exactly belong to the SS. They were not members of the SS, at least not necessarily. They were not SS members who supported the SS movement. They were so-called sponsoring members, and their contributions were collected by SS agencies, and that is where they were collected.
Q I should like to go into the financial support of the SS a bit further. Can you give us some idea as to what circle of people it was that made the financial contributions voluntarily, contributions to the SS?
A That was a circle of people which consisted of all classes of the people. There were sponsoring members who would pay fifty pfennigs a month, and there were such members who would possibly give one hundred or one thousand marks.
DR. HOFFMANN: (For Defendant Scheide) Your Honor, I object to this question. The question of the sponsoring members is being dealt with by the International Military Tribunal I, and I do not believe that the Defendant Pohl can possibly give us any further details as to this matter.
MR. ROBBINS: May I ask that the Court reserve decision until after recess at which time I will state my reasons more fully for going into this question.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we are about to sustain you, but we will put it off if you like.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: All persons take your seat in the courtroom.
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I have only a very small number of questions concerning the financial support of the SS, only three or four, perhaps. The witness has given some testimony on that subject on direct examination and I should like permission to crossexamine him briefly on it.
Q Would you give us some idea as to whom the contribution came from?
A The contributions came from all circles of the population. The members consisted of and were included in all classes. They were voluntary contributions and the individual was able to determine just how much he was going to pay.
Q Were contributions made by members outside of the circle of persons known as FM, Financial Supporters of the SS?
AActually this was the only organization which received these contributions. Outside of this circle of financial supporters, contributions were occasionally made, but I do not have any details about them.
Q There were contributions made by persons who were not members of the FM, were there not?
A Yes.
Q And were contributions made by German industrialists?
A For myself, I am not informed about the heights and types of contribution which was made, because these contributions were accepted by the agencies of the Reich and we were not informed by them in our organization. I do not know what amounts were contained in the individual contributions.
Q I did not ask you the amounts. I merely asked you if contributions were made by German Industrialists to the SS by businessmen in Germany.
A That is possible. However, I do not have any information about it.
Q I would like to turn now to some of the documents in Book No. 3. If you have that before you, will you turn to Page 9 of the German Book, the Document 1919-PS, Exhibit 49.
This is the speech by Himmler at Posen, which you have referred to several times. Were you at Posen when this speech was delivered?
A Yes.
Q You were in the audience of Gruppenfuehrers who attended the meeting?
A Yes.
Q And you heard Himmler say "What happens to a Russian, to a Czech does not interest me in the slightest. What nations can offer in the way of good blood of our type, we will take...... Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion does not interest me."
A I have listened to that speech, yes.
Q You also heard Himmler say in referring to you in that same speech "We have huge armament works in the concentration camps. This is the sphere of activity of our friend, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Pohl. Every month we put in many millions of hours of work for armament." You heard that, did you not?
A Yes.
Q And then with reference to the clearing out of the Jews, did you hear Himmler say, "I want to talk to you about clearing out of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish Race. It's one of those things that's easy to talk about - The Jewish Race is being exterminated" and so forth.
A He personally did not discuss that with me. I only heard that in his speech.
Q You heard it in his speech?
A The speech at Posen, yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What is the date of this speech, please?
MR. ROBBINS: This is the 4th of October, 1943, Your Honor. This is Exhibit 49, in Book No. 3.
Q And then with reference to the clearing out of the Jews, did you hear Himmler say this about you? "We have taken from them what wealth they had. I have issued a strict order, which SS-Obergruppen fuehrer Pohl has carried out, that this wealth should, as a matter of course, be handed over to the Reich without reserve."
You heard that, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Now, I ask you to turn to the last part of this document, which is Himmler's speech at Cracow in April 1943.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Mr. Robbins, before you proceed to the next speech, I just want to ask a question or two about the Posen speech. Where was this delivered, this speech? Was it in a hall, in an auditorium, or out in the open?
WITNESS: This speech was delivered in a hotel where this conference took place. It was in a big hall, a Hotel hall.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: About how many were present?
WITNESS: I estimate there were 100 to 150 persons present.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And how were they invited to the conference? Were they ordered there?
WITNESS: They were ordered officially to attend this conference.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Thank you.
Q Did you attend the speech at Cracow in April 1943?
A No.
Q Did you hear anything about the contents of that speech?
A No.
Q You didn't hear that Himmler had said at that speech in April 1943 that "Anti-semitism is exactly the same as delousing. Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology."
A I do not know anything about the Cracow speech and I did not read it afterwards.
Q You didn't hear that Himmler had said "We know that these clashes with Asia and Jewry are necessary for evolution."
A No.
Q With reference to the Posen speech, did you take any steps to resist the program of extermination of the Jews that he referred to there?
AAfter this speech, we discussed the subject at the table where I was sitting with the comrades. There were approximately five persons at this table. These persons did not agree at all with the speech. On the occasion of my next reporting to Himmler, I started to talk about the speech and I told him that I was not in agreement with this policy of extermination already with the consideration of the labor which the Reich was losing as a result of this action. He then very briefly told me that I did not understand anything about this matter and that I was too soft and then he went into the adjoining room. Then he returned after a while. He dismissed me very briefly without saying anything further and he would not go into this subject of the conversation any more.
Q In spite of your objection to the extermination of the Jews and the clearing out of the Jews of the various Ghettos, you continued to assist Himmler in the way that he stated in his speech, is that correct?
A Prior to this speech at Posen I had already received the order from him to deal with all objects arrived from the East and to turn them over to the Reichsbank. At the time I did not as yet know where these valuables came from, and that here we were dealing with a big plan of extermination.
Q You soon found out about that though, did you not?
A I only found out about this by means of the Economic Auditing Reports which Globocnik sent to Berlin. Only from that was I able to form a picture of what actually went on. I only heard the first official notification of this plan through Himmler's speech at Posen. Before that I had to base my opinion on assumptions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Who were the five comrades of yours that discussed Himmler's speech with you after it was delivered at Posen?
WITNESS: I remember for certain that the following were present: Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt and von Herff, and I believe that Obergruppenfuehrer Hildebrandt was also seated at this table. I can not remember the names of the others.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Where is Schmidt now?
WITNESS: I don't know.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Is he living or dead?
WITNESS: He is probably still alive. However, I don't know.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Where is von Herff? Where is he?
WITNESS: Von Herff is Chief of the Personnel Main Office and he is alleged to have died during the war.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He is dead. Where is Hildebrandt?
WITNESS: I don't know if he is dead.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: There is Hildebrandt?
WITNESS: Hildebrandt is still alive.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do you know where he is?
WITNESS: No, I don't know.
DR. HOFFMANN: He was witness in the first trial.
BY DR. ROBBINS:
Q. The Obergruppenfuehrer Schmidt that you mention, is that the same Schmidt that you detailed to make inspections of the concentration camps, to assist Eicke?
A. Yes, the same Schmidt who in the Summer of 1943, I believe, became assistant to Glueck in order to assist him in making inspections trips to concentration camps.
Q. And he reported directly to you on information he had obtained about the concentration camps, did he not?
A. Yes, Schmidt visited concentration camps, and above the labor matters, and after having completed his tour he always would come to see me, and he reported to me about his trips.
Q. Will you turn to Document NI-500, which is Exhibit No.55 at page 50 of the German Document Book, at page 45 of the English Document Book. It is a letter from Himmler to Gluecks, and in this letter, or cable, Himmler states that he is going to send 100,000 male Jews, and 50,000 Jewesses into concentration camps during the next week. It is dated 26 January 1942. He said, "The ConcentrationCamps will have to deal with major economical problems and tasks in the next weeks. SS Gruppenfuehrer Pohl will inform you of the particulars." Did you inform Gluecks of the particulars in this case?
A. I can not recall that exactly. In January 1942, however, I didn't think that we were confronted by a greater task at that time, and I am rather lead to assume that this was transfer of the armament industries into the concentration camps, which began in May and June of 1942.
Q. And the construction and operation of those ammunition plants were under you, is that correct?
A. Yes, they were constructed by our Construction Administration on concentration camps, and the technical execution, above all the planning, was dealt with by Staatsrat Schieber the Armament referent, was responsible and competent for the transfer.
Q. You knew, did you not, or that you were told in January 1942 that 100,000 male Jews and 50,000 Jewesses were sent to concentration camps?
A. I don't believe that I received knowledge of that at the time because the transfer to concentration camps did not concern me at the time, not with regard to the allocation of labor. I can not remember today that I was informed by Gluecks. However, there was no reason for him to do it at the time.
Q. You had occasional conferences with Gluecks, did you not?
A. Not at that time, no. Not before April 1942. At that time I did not see any more of Gluecks than anybody else. At that time we did not have any official contact.
Q. So you state that you were not informed that 150,000 Jews were sent to the camps?
A. I cannot remember that I was informed of this in January 1942.
Q. With reference to your control over the concentration camp commandants, I will ask you to turn to page 64, or rather 65 in the German Document Book, Exhibit No. 60, NO-1290. If I recall your testimony correctly that on last Friday, you testified that you could not-
THE INTERPRETER: Your Honor, there is something wrong with the sound system. We will be interrupted for about one second until it is fixed.
THE PRESIDENT: The second is over. All right, go ahead, we will wait.
BY MR ROBBINS:
Q. (continuing) Within the last week you testified that instructions to camp commandants came from Oranienburg to the Inspectorate of concentration camps. "I cannot recall that I ever gave instructions to camp commandants myself". Does this document refresh your recollection on that? This is an instruction by you to commandants of concentration camps at Lublin, Mauthausen, Ravensbrueck, Stutthof and numerous other camps, concerning working time.