A. The DEST did not have any plant at Treblinka. In any case I did not know anything about that.
Q. Well, I will show you a document in a moment to refresh your recollection, a document that was prepared and submitted to you, that says it did.
A. In Neuengamme, Bernstedt, and Oranienburg.
Q. It also had a granite work in Flossenburg and Gross-Rosen?
A. Yes, at Gross-Rosen. I named Mauthausen, Flossenburg, Natzweiler, and Gross-Rosen, that is correct.
Q. Did you name Neuengamme?
A. I named Neuengamme, yes, Bernstedt, and Oranienburg.
Q. Did you name Dambach-Goertschen? It would be simpler to get the entire list. If you would turn to Document Book XV--
THE PRESIDENT: Well, how many are there, Mr. Robbins? I didn't mean to lead into this, just approximately. A dozen?
MR. ROBBINS: There were plants at approximately a dozen different concentration camps. However, I understand that there were, I think, into the hundreds of actual plants or work locations.
THE PRESIDENT: That answers my question.
THE WITNESS: It is completely impossible that the DEST had one hundred plants or so.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Well, it had at least one hundred different work locations, did it not?
A. Completely out of the question. The brick plants had stone quarries, which we mentioned, but they did not have other working places at all.
Q. Well, Mummenthey submitted regular reports to you on the number of inmates who were working in these plants, didn't he?
A. If he submitted regular reports to me? That is to say, the reports were submitted to me in such a way that the business managers would come to see me from time to time. Whenever they consider it neces sary or otherwise, I had him called in order to make some inquiries.
However, the reports were not submitted regularly. Of course, then we would discuss everything that pertained to the plant.
Q. Well, there are documents in the document books which are reports by Mummenthey. I don't think I will take time to have you turn to them, but NO-541, which is Exhibit 435, Document Book 16, shows that as early as 1939, for instance in November 1945, that approximately five thousand inmates were employed. Can you give us some idea of the figures of the inmates who were employed under DEST in the latter part of the war, say '43 to '44?
A. I estimate that the DEST at the end, that is to say also in the armament of the DEST, and everything that was subordinate to the DEST, consisted of twenty to twenty-five thousand prisoners, twenty to twentyfive thousand. In the stone quarries, in the brick plants, and the armament industries of the DEST.
Q. The tunnels in the stone quarries were later turned over to the armament industries, were they not, and munitions and V weapons were produced in the tunnels of the DEST, the underground tunnels?
A. Well, these were almost exclusively for the production of aircraft. This was carried out in the tunnels which had been established for that purpose. Munitions, rifles, etc. were, I believe, produced in Gusen in halls, not in tunnels.
Q. We turn now to the defendant Volk, V-O-L-K. You have no doubt that he knew that concentration camp inmates were being employed on a large scale, do you?
A. He also knew that inmates of the concentration camps were being used.
Q. He worked on the so-called wage regulations for inmate labor, did he not? He handled some correspondence on that. You remember that from the documents, don't you?
A. Yes, that was the document that Baier was working on with Maurer. I don't know that Volk participated in that.
Q. Well, the document will speak for itself. He handled all of the legal affairs of the DWV, did he not?
A. Yes, he was the expert, the legal expert there, the notary, and he worked on the legal matters in the DWB.
Q. He was the managing director of the Home Building Society under Staff W, was he not?
A. We did not have a general director. He was perhaps the manager of this enterprise.
Q. That is what I said, he was the managing director, was he not?
A. No, he was the business manager. We only called him what he actually was. We didn't have any directors and general directors, and we did not have any business managing directors.
Q. He was the business manager?
A. I don't know how it is expressed in English, but we call it "Geschaeftsfuehrer" (business manager).
Q And he became referent for Housing, did he not, in your organization?
A Yes, he took care of the tasks of this company.
Q Well, we are on the industries under Staff W. Let me ask you: The DWB was a holding company which controlled all of the other industries, did it not?
A Yes.
Q And this -- who owned the shares of this industry?
A I have already described that, and explained it in my description about the legal matters.
Q Well, you explained it but I don't understand it. You told us that you were the trustee of the shares. Is that right?
A I was the trustee of the company. I have explained that the owner of the shares would not have been determined; that he, however, on the basis of the number of shares which the Reich owned in this company -- the Reich would consider it the owner. And that consequently the DWB would have been property owned by the Reich --
Q Excuse me, I asked you a very simple question. Who owned the shares of the DWB?
A The DWB was not a holding company but a G.m.b.H., a limited company. The capital of this limited company came primarily from the Reich, and as late as 1944 the Reich granted credit of 3,000,000 marks. Solely by virtue of that fact, do I consider the Reich as the owner of the DWB.
Q The shares were in your name, were they not? You told us the other day that you were the trustee. What is this trustee relationship?
A If I am a trustee, that does not mean that I am owner of the shares.
Q I understand that but just tell us, were the shares in your name?
A Yes. Naturally. After all, I was a partner in the company. It was established with my name.
Q And you told us that as far as the books and the legal records were concerned, that nothing appeared other than the fact that you were owner of the shares. You stated that you had made a trust deed to Himmler, is that correct? Or will I have to get your testimony and read it to you?
A I stated that from the trade journal it could not have been seen that I was not the personal owner of the shares, but that I was only the trustee.
Q That is what I mean.
AAnd that I, because I was nothing but the trustee, and since the owner was not stated, that I offered to Himmler the shares in case I should die so that he would be able to appoint a new trustee. That was the reason why I offered this to Himmler. Otherwise, upon my death, one could not have continued to operate this company.
Q So, if you made the deed to Himmler, was Himmler the trustor of the shares; was Himmler the equitable owner of the shares?
A No; he would have become trustee in my place and, by virtue of this position, he in turn could appoint another trustee, who would have been my successor.
Q It didn't appear on the business journal that the Reich owned the shares of the DWB, did it?
A No.
Q And did Himmler know that you had made this deed to him -- the fact that you had two copies of the deed? Did you know? You kept them in your safe (I have the location here somewhere). Himmler didn't know that you had made the deed, did he?
A He never even saw it. It was laid down in the partnership, and it was only to become effective in the case of my death; and he did not need to see any more. It was only a security that in the case of my death no legal complications would arise in the administration of this enterprise. From the moment I died he would have taken over the trusteeship.
Q But, as far as the outside world knew, and as far as anyone out side of your staff knew, apparently it is perfectly clear that you were the owner of the shares.
And no one else knew that anyone -either the Reich or Himmler -- had any equipable or legal ownership in the DWB. I would like to turn now to a discussion of the defendant Bobermin. He was chief of Amt W-2, was he not?
A Yes.
Q Tell us what he had to do with the seizure of brick plants in the East which were put under his supervision.
A He had nothing whatever to do with the seizure because the seizure of the brick works had already been carried out when Bobermin appeared in the picture. The seizure was carried out by the chief trusteeship agency for the East. And from this number of plants which had been seized a part of the brick works were turned over to the WVHA for operation and maintenance. The WVHA had to administer them in a trusteeship, and I was appointed trustee general for these enterprises.
Q Just a moment. Then the confiscated brick works were put under Bobermin's supervision, is that right? As chief of W-2?
A Bobermin was to take over the commercial administration and to develop it for these enterprises in Amt W-2. At the beginning it was Amt 3-A under Salpeter, in Berlin, and a short time later this agency was transferred to Posen.
Q Most of these brick works were put under the Ostdeutsche Ziegelwere, is that true? That is, the Eastern German Works for Building Material?
A The Eastern German Brick Works ... I think that was the name.
Q Yes. Now, the second industry on our basic document which, incidentally, was prepared by Hohberg, is the Golleschauer Portland Cement, Limited. How many concentration camp inmates did this industry employ?
A Well, when the civilian workers were withdrawn, I believe 500 to 1000 prisoners were employed there, but I cannot give you the exact number. There was a minimum of 500 and a maximum number of 1,000, according to my recollection.
Q And these were made available to Bobermin by Maurer, Amtsgruppe D, is that correct?
A Yes, I myself gave the order.
Q Where, in the East, did the Golleschauer company have plants?
A There was only one concrete work in Golleschauer. There were no other plants there.
Q They only had one plant?
A One plant only, yes.
Q And do you know from what concentration camp the inmates were sent?
A They came from Auschwitz.
Q They came from the Auschwitz concentration camp?
A Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: Would this be a convenient time for the Tribunal to recess?
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess at this time.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess until 1345 this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing convened at 1345 hours.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
OSWALD POHL - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION - Continued BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Witness, do you know when the Defendant Bobermin joined the SS?
A I believe he was called up in '40 or '41.
Q Will you repeat that, please?
A '40 or '41.
Q Do you know whether he joined the SS voluntarily?
A That I can no longer recall, but since it was during the war, he was probably called up.
Q When did you first meet Bobermin?
A That was in '40 or '41. I think '40. Yes, yes... It was in 1940 because in 1939 the brick works were constructed. It was 1940.
Q And what position did he have under you at that time?
AAt that time he was in charge of Amt Salpeter. That was the stone masonery works.
Q I would like to go back and ask you about Mummenthey. When did you first meet Mummenthey?
A I think that was also in 1940 or '41 but I am not absolutely certain.
Q And what position under you did Mummenthey hold when he first joined the WVHA, or the administrative organizations?
A Mummenthey too was working in the Economic enterprises.
Q Did he hold - was he chief of any office?
AAt that time, no.
Q Do you know whether he joined the SS voluntarily?
A No, I don't know that either.
Q Will you tell us when you first met the Defendant Volk?
A That too happened in '40 or '41.
Q And what position did he have at that time?
A Volk too was in the Salpeter Department of the business firms Economic Department.
Q Do you know whether he joined the SS voluntarily?
A No, no. I don't.
Q While we are still discussing Amt 2, or, rather, Amt W-2 and Amt W-1
A I didn't understand your question.
Q While we are still discussing Amts W-1 and W-2, I should like to ask you if it isn't a fact that when prisoners were working on important work locations and the RSHA expressed a desire to have the inmate released, that it was still within the power of the WVHA to prevent the release?
A No, the WVHA couldn't prevent sacking. If the RSHA wanted releases, wanted sacking they had to be sacked.
Q What is the word?
A If the RSHA ordered somebody was to be sacked, he had to be sacked.
Q It is true that the RSHA was the organization which ordered the release, but isn't it also true that the RSHA followed the recommendations on the chiefs of Amtsgruppe W as to when the inmate should be released?
A Releases from camps took place either on principle only on order from RSHA and the WVHA could just speak in favor of somebody being discharged. In other words, they could speak in favor of such a release, promote it, if you like, but they could neither prevent it nor could they order it on their own initiative.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, I am advised that there is a very serious interference on Channel No. 1, which makes it almost impossible for the interpreter to hear the verbatim statements over the noise of this roaring on the line. The interpreters have requested that we recess until it can be checked, and remedied if possible.
MR. ROBBINS: Will we convene again this afternoon, Your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, stand by until we see how serious this inter ference is.
We will come back, if it can be remedied fairly promptly.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal II is again in session BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Before the interruption, witness, you were telling us that the W Chiefs could make recommendations to the RSHA as to the length of time which an inmate might be kept in the concentration camp. I ask you if as a master of fact it wasn't required that the managers of the SS industries make reports on inmates who were working in so-called important work locations. Isn't it true that such reports were required?
A. Reports of important work locations?
Q. Yes, reports made by the Chiefs of the W offices, reports by the managers of the SS industries on inmates who were working at important jobs.
A. I cannot recall that.
Q. Will your turn to Document Book 16, Document No.1972, on page 19 of the English, and it is Exhibit 429. I don't seem to have the German page. Do you have the document?
A. No, I have not yet found it.
Q. It is the third document in the book. Exhibit No. 429. Document No 1972?
A. Yes, Document No 1972, I have found it.
Q. That is a letter by Grimm to the manager of DAW at Buchenwald, and to the manager of DEST, and it states that the main section 1-5 request a report of those prisoners who are occupied on important work locations, and who, therefore, cannot be immediately released or exchanged. It is what the document says, isn't it? The following document which is--excuse me, and the letter from DAW to the Main Office Budget and Buildings Main Section 1-5 refers to reports on prisoners who can not immediately be released in the event that this is intended. I would like to go onto the next subject matter and refer--
A. Well, I would like to say something on that matter.
Q. Just a moment. Will you turn to Document Book No. 2, please.
A. Unfortunately I don't have document book No. 2 with me here.
THE PRESIDENT: You asked the witness a question and referred him to a document, and then did not permit him to answer, and he insists that he wishes to answer.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. All right, let me put the question to you again, witness. It is true, isn't it, that the reports were made by managers of the SS Industries on prisoners who were working on important work locations for the purpose of retaining those prisoners for a longer period of time?
A. No, not for a longer period of time, Your Honor. The letter has completely a different meaning. If a prisoner, for example, had received a special training during the plan, for example, for specialized work on a maching, something like that, and we tried to avoid their being taken out of the plant within twenty-four hours, and here notification was to take place before the twenty-four hours, before the time, so that a new worker could be appointed to take this workers place.
We were not trying to keep a prisoner who was to be released in the plant. Of course, such a prisoner cannot be released from one day to the other because it will hamper the operations of the plant.
Q. This document does not say anything about retaining for a twenty-four hour period, does it? It just says "Those who cannot be released," I emphasize the word "immediately".
A. No, it is stated here "those workers on important jobs, and who can not be immediately released", I emphasize the word immediately.
Q. As a matter of fact you knew that inmates were kept in not only for the period of time for which they were assigned to the camp, but supposed to have been incarcerated in the camp for years and years beyond that period, isn't that true?
A. No, to the contrary, because the plant tried to try to get well trained and efficient workers released so they could employ them as civilian workers.
Q. And that had been on a very large scale?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. About how many inmates would you estimate were released, and who became free workers in the DEST and other industries?
A. I can not possibly state the number in regard to all the plants. I could make too much of a mistake in the number.
Q. Would it be something like ten or twenty over a period of several years?
A. I am certain that the figures are considerably higher. I am convinced of that.
Q. You know, as a matter of fact, however that inmates were kept for much longer than period for which they were originally assigned to the camps, is that or is that not true?
A. Certainly not in regard to Economic Enterprises, because they were interested in getting these people released from confinement.
Through them they would be certain of having them as civilian workers.
Q. When we were talking about the defendant Volk, you stated that he merely handled personal matters. Would you turn to Document Book No. 2?
A. I did not say that the defendant Volk had only dealt with personnel questions. I said that he was the legal export, and that he was an expert on legal matters. I did not even refer to personnel plans, and did not say any thing about it. It is not known to me that he ever worked on personnel matters.
Q. Excuse me. No, I don't refer to personnel matters. I said, personal legal matters. He worked on your personal legal matters, did he not?
A. No, he took care of all legal and traditional matters which accumulated in the holding company. He prepared notary matters, and matters pertaining to civil matters on which he advised the Dest Company, and so on, that is what I said.
Q. He also acted as your personal legal adviser, did he not?
A. Yes, I also consulted him on these questions, because I participated in them, and as my private secretary and my personal assistant he took care of taxation matters, and matrimonial and matters pertaining to other legal questions.
Q. Do you have Book No. 2 in your hands?
A. No, I don't have Book No. 2 with me.
Q. Will you turn to page 52 of the German Document Book, which is Exhibit No. 30, which is document No.-2147. Do you have the document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. It states that Volk as well as the Chief of Amt-2 and Maurer May and other persons participated in a negotiation about a site for concentration camp Stutthoff. Are you informed as to the subject mat ter of this conversation?
A. In the conversation between Volk and Maurer?
Q. Yes.
A. I only know what I have read here in this report.
Q. It is true that Volk negotiated for the purchase of a site for the concentration camp Stutthof, is it not?
A. No, this was not Volk's task. He participated in that discussion as the manager of Building and Home Sites Ltd, because this was to be purchased over for the DWB. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the purchase of a site for a concentration camp, because that was bought by the Reich and not through the German Economic Enterprises, and for the purchase by the Reich it was carried out in the legal office of Amtsgruppe-A, and a problem on settlement was also connected with this. Volk acted here as business manager of the Home Site, and Construction Organization, which belonged to the DWB. (German Economic Enterprises.)
Q. It is perfectly clear from the document that Volk did participate in the negotiations, whatever his official status in the conversation was?
A. He participated in it but the negotiations did not only deal with the purchase of a site for the concentration camp, but he also had to deal with enterprises for the Economic Enterprises, Ltd. It says here that the German Economic Enterprises, G.m.b.H. wanted to purchase a site at Stutthof. That is something completely different than the purchase of a site for a concentration camp, which the Reich wanted to purchase. There are two purchases which are not shown there.
Q. This purchase you refer to is a purchase for one of the SS Industries, is that correct?
A. Yes, the site which was to be purchased for the German Economic Enterprises, DWB.
A. It was to be used for the enlargement of the economic plants which existed at that time.
Q. And it was planned that inmate labor would be used, was it not?
A. Yes, the comp had already been completed, and the plants were already operating. It was already an existing and operating police camp.
Q. And inmate labor was used in the industry?
A. The prisoners were already working in the plants which had already been established there.
Q. I would like to turn to the Defendant Klein and ask you when you first became acquainted with Klein?
A. I believe that this was either 1940 or 1941 or early in 1943. I don't know it exactly. It must have been one of the years, 1940 or '41 or 1943.
Q. Did he become one of your subordinates at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What was his job at the time?
A. At that time he was the legal specialist for these special tasks. That is the Society for German Cultural Monuments, and then various installations, such as Extrastein Foundation, Prinz Heinrich Foundation, and Koenig Heinrich foundat. Later on the convalescent homes were added.
Q. Did he use inmate labor in this organization?
A. As far as I know prisoners were only used in the construction at Wewelsburg.
Q. What enterprise was he carrying out at Wewelsburg?
A. At Wewelsburg was an old ruin which was again to be reconstructed, and this reconstruction work was carried out during the first years by free workers. Later on, I believe it was at the outbreak of the war, but I don't remember the year exactly, prison labor was also used.
Q. Part of the proof in this case shows that the death rate at Wewelsburg was very high and that inmates were worked to death at that place. Do you know anything about that?
A. I don't have any knowledge of that from my own observations. I cannot imagine that, because this was an extraordinarily quiet construction place. There was no rush in the construction of this place, and the work was carried on for five or six years, and nothing special was accomplished. The Building Administration, and for the allocation of inmate labor, Standartenfuehrer Bartels were responsible. He was the man to whom the whole construction work was subordinate, and as far as I know, Gruppenfuehrer Tauberg had the supervision over this camp. He was the man who was in charge of the castle and he lived there. He was there all the time.
Q. Do you know how many inmates were working under Klein at Wewelsburg?
A. I estimate that in the construction of Wewelsburg perhaps three hundred inmates were used, but I don't know that number exactly.
Q. I will not ask you to turn to the document, but simply state that in Klein's report, one of his monthly reports, which is Exhibit 455 in Document Book XVII, Klein states that an additional nine hundred prisoners have been employed recently. I would like to turn now to a discussion of the Defendant Georg Loerner. Can you tell us when you first met Georg Loerner?
A. I have known Goerg Loerner since February, 1934, ever since he entered the SS.
Q. What position did he hold in your organization at that time?
A. At the time, as far as I can recall, he was the chief of the main department. Later on he became chief of an amt and finally he became chief of an amtsgruppe.
Q. Do you know whether he joined the SS voluntarily?
A. Yes. In peacetime there was only voluntary entry into the SS. Nobody could be conscripted.
Q. I think we have gone into his duties with regard to food and clothing sufficiently in the examination on yesterday. I would like to ask you if as deputy of the WVHA, the deputy chief, if he ever gave instructions to any of the members in Amtsgruppe A?
A. I don't think so. When he was my deputy I always continued to handle the affairs generally speaking, and when important decrees and orders were issued then they were either forwarded to me or they remained in my office until I returned. I don't believe that during my absence any basic and fundamental orders were issued by my deputy.
Q. Was he authorized to issue any instructions of any kind in your absence?
A. I never actually let go of the administration because I only left for a relatively short period of time, and therefore I always kept the fundamental orders and decisions in my hands. I did not issue any specific authority to anybody, because the person who represented me more or less had to exercise the supervision over the house when I was absent.
Q. He did represent you, did he not, in supervising Amtsgruppe W?
A. He was my representative officially speaking, but even there he did not have to represent me very much. As I have already said, I was always very close to handling these things, and I hardly ever left Berlin. Through the years from 1938 to 1945 I took a short leave on two occasions, and during these two furloughs I kept on working, and on the short trips from two to three days, it actually did not make it necessary for me to have a representative. My representatives did not have much work to do.
Q. I would like to ask you a few questions about the Defendant Hans Loerner. What were his duties in Office A-1?
A. Hans Loerner was chief of an office in Amtsgruppe A. I only know that they primarily dealt with matters pertaining to the General-SS and Allgemeine-SS, and they had certain work in the Reich budget. I don't know any more details about that because I had nothing to do with the office chiefs of the A, B and C groups, and I myself did not have any personal discussions with them because everything was routed through the chief of the office group.
Q. He handled the budgetary matters for the death-head units, did he not?
A. For the entire Waffen SS, but I don't know what he actually did within the framework of his task. I cannot make any statement about the task of the individual chiefs of offices in the individual office groups. I cannot say very much in detail because this was rather far afield from me. They spoke to the chief of the "Amtsgruppe", and then the chief of the "Amtsgruppe would come to see me.
Q. If that is true, what makes you so certain in your testimony on yesterday that George Loerner had nothing to do with the food in the concentration camps if you actually did not have a very intimate knowledge of their work?
A. George Loerner was chief of an office group. I have just stated that the discussions of the chiefs of the offices went over the chiefs of the office groups. Hans Loerner was chief of an office. He would refer all matters to the chief of his "Amtsgruppe", and I would in turn speak to the chief of that "Amtsgruppe".
Q. You know, then do you not, that Hans Loerner handled the budgetary matters for the Ahnenerbe?
A. I don't think that the Ahnenerbe dealt to any considerable extent with budgetary matters. I think the only matter which was carried out here by Hans Loerner is the letter to his personal staff in which he informs that treasury that the expenses for the Ahnenerbe are to be accounted for in the Reich budget. I don't know if he wrote any additional letters, but according to the connection of the entire organization I cannot very well imagine that.
Q. He handled the budgetary matters for the financing of the medical experiments, did he not, through the Ahnenerbe?
A. He had nothing whatsoever to do with it. By informing the treasury of the personal staff where the funds for the Ahnenerbe were to be accredited, he didn't have the least thing to do with the medical experiments.
I am quite certain that he did not know anything about that.
Q. You don't deny it, do you, that the Ahnenerbe carried on medical experiments, and medical experiments were under them?
A. I am not denying that. I know that.
Q. Are you denying that Loerner handled the budgetary matters for the Ahnenerbe?
A. Yes, I deny that insofar that the Ahnenerbe did not have to deal with any budgetary matters. The Ahnenerbe was a registered society which drew its funds from all possible sources, and I did not know any person who worked on these budgetary matters for the Ahnenerbe. As far as I can overlook these matters, Hans Loerner only informed the treasury of the personal staff where the funds, the budgetary funds from the Reich budget for the Scientific Institute were to be accredited and nothing else. That was after Himmler had ordered that the funds for this Institute for Scientific Research were to be paid from the treasury of the Waffen SS. In other words by the State. I don't know any more about these auditing matters and accounting matters.