Court No. II, Case No. 4.
That was a letter by Himmler, written to you on the 9th of October, 1942. What did the last sentence of the letter mean to you?
A Well, at that time I could not conclude from that letter that the Jews should be exterminated. At that time it was always said that the Jews should be evacuated to the East and I don't think that from that sentence it should become clear that the Jews should become executed.
Q This is talking about the East. It is talking about Jews in concentration camps in the East and that they should disappear from the East. Where should they disappear to? Where was it you understood that they should be evacuated to from the East?
A Well, the letter does not say that and I did not think about it because the main context of this letter contains something else, the coordination of labor. What he means by this, did not become known to me.
Q He is talking about the Jews in Occupied Poland. That is the East, isn't it and it says, first they are to put them all into large concentration camps and then they will disappear, in accordance with Hiler's wishes. I think the letter speaks perfectly for itself. Now let's turn to the second document in this same book, which is Exhibit 499. This is Himmler's letter to you and to Krueger in January, 1943, and he expresses surprise after his visit to the East and strong dissatisfaction over the fact that there still were some 40,000 Jews left in Warsaw and he instructs you and Krueger to do something about it. Now, I will turn to the third document in the Document Book, which is Exhibit 500. This is another letter from Himmler to you. This is dated February, 1943. In this letter Himmler instructs you: "I am giving the order to establish a concentration camp in the Ghetto of Warsaw." This concentration camp was not erected, was it? It wasn't erected?
A Yes, it was erected.
Q It was erected? You erected it?
AA concentration camp was in Warsaw later on, after 1943, I Court No. II, Case No. 4.believe, after July, 1943.
Q You carried out Himmler's order in the respect?
A Yes, I did.
Q And then turn to the next document. It is in February 1943 and all of these documents, I remind you, are before Himmler's speech, and all of this time Jews were being exterminated in the East, in Auschwitz, and in other concentration camps under your supervision. This letter, dated 16 February, 1943, is a letter from Himmler to Krueger ordering the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto subsequent to the removal of the concentration camp. Do you remember whether you received a copy of this letter?
A Yes, I do.
Q Did you receive a copy?
A Yes.
Q Will you look at the next letter, which is June 1943. This is Krueger's letter to Himmler, transmitting Stroop's final report on the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, following out the instructions that Himmler had previously given. Did you receive a copy of this report?
A I cannot recall that I ever saw this report before.
Q Do you tell us today that you did not?
A I don't believe I did. I cannot recall that I saw Stroop's report ever.
Q Well, you heard about it, didn't you?
A I heard about it later on.
Q How much later on?
A Well, after the end.
Q And the end was in June 1943. That's when the final mop up was reported and you heard, did you not, that Stroop reported that the SS fought for a period of several weeks against the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto; that 60 Waffen-SS men were killed in the fight and that an average of 36 SS officers and 54 SS men were used each day in the killing Court No. II, Case No. 4.of the Jews in Warsaw.
That is contained in Stroop's report. It also says in Stroop's report that on the first attack on the Ghetto the Jews succeeded in repelling the SS troops and quite a number of SS men were killed. You heard, didn't you, as Stroop reported on page 15 of his report that of the total of 56,065 Jews fought, about 7,000 were exterminated on the spot within the Ghetto in the course of a large scale action and that 6,929 were executed by transporting them to Treblinka II, which means 14,000 were exterminated immediately. Beyond the number of 56,000 Jews an estimated number of five to six thousand were killed by explosions or in fires. You heard about all of that didn't you and do you still maintain -
THE PRESIDENT: Let him answer, Mr. Robbins.
Q You heard about all this didn't you?
A These details did not reach me at that time. All I heard was that there was some action against the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, a military action, without being previously informed about this. I did not hear the details of it.
Q And you heard there was a perfectly peaceful action and nobody at all was killed?
AAt that time in some cases I heard it from the press or from hearsay and I heard there was an action where military forces were used. More details did not reach me at that time.
Q This report was made the 2d of January, 1943. Let's see what happened after that date and I remind you here that this was before Himmler's speech in Posen in October 1943. Will you look at the next document, which is Exhibit 503 on Page 8 of your Document Book. I am sorry, we have already covered that. Look at Exhibit 504, which is the next one on page 155 of your Document Book, which is after the Stroop report. This is a letter from Himmler to you and others. This was after the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto, or, at least, after the main part of the military action and Himmler says:
"I herewith order that the Dzielna prison on the former Ghetto Court No. II, Case No. 4.of Warsaw is to be transformed into a concentration camp.
The prisoners are to gather and to secure the millions of building stones, scrap iron and other building material of the former Ghetto."
and then, he instructs that a concentration camp will be erected. You received this letter, didn't you?
A Yes.
Q And you know that the concentration camp was erected there, do you not?
A Yes, at that time the concentration camp was erected in Warsaw.
Q Did you have anything to do with the construction of the concentration camp?
AAnother concentration camp, as far as I can recollect was built by the Essential Building Administration in Warsaw, which was under the Police leader at Cracow.
Q That was under the leadership of Amtsgruppe C, wasn't it?
A No, the central administration it was under the Construction Group with the Higher SS Police leaders, that is, the Administrative Post of Warsaw.
Q Well, if you didn't have anything to do with the construction of the concentration camp after the clean up action, why did Himmler instruct you to see that a concentration camp be erected? This is an order directed to you.
A Well, because I had to be informed of all these matters, because the Central Agency, Office Group D, was part of the WVHA, and I had to be informed about all these matters.
Q And you were completely informed about them, weren't you?
AAs far as it becomes clear from the correspondence.
Q And I would ask you next to turn to the following Document, which is NO-2403, Exhibit 503, on page 156 of your Document Book. This is a letter from Himmler to you as Chief of the WVHA ordering the transfer of the Jews from the Ghetto to the concentration camp and it says the Chief of the WVHA is required to take care that this reorganization Court No. II, Case No. 4.does not cause any reduction in the necessary production by the Wehrmacht.
You carried out Himmler's order that he gave you here, did you not?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A I was never out in the East.
Q I don't mean that you personally built the concentration camp. You supervised it; you took care that there was no reduction in the production for the Wehrmacht; you didn't do it personally, but it was done under you, wasn't it?
A It was done by the regionally competent people, who were the administrative agency in Riga. They received the order to carry it out; and I did not bother about the details. I was unable to do so.
Q We'll turn to the next document, which is Exhibit 506, a letter which you wrote, signed 23 July 1943. This was Himmler's speech in Poland; and you are reporting to Himmler that "I report that the concentration camp in the Warsaw Ghetto has been erected and was occupied by the first 300 prisoners on 19/7/43." You signed this letter, did you not?
A Yes.
Q You say in the last paragraph, "Work in the former Ghetto will be executed in the closest collaboration with the SS and police leader in the Warsaw district, SS Brigadefuehrer Stroop." You followed out that promise, didn't you?
A Yes, I did.
Q Then I should like to ask you, your office procured the gas for the Jewish extermination as early as July 1942, didn't it?
A My office never supplied gas for the extermination of Jews; but I should like to say something about this document. Of all those documents which you have put to me, none of them shows that I had any knowledge of the extermination of the Jews. All these documents are concerned with the reorganization of the whole of the armament enterprises, the concentration of Jews who up to the last moment worked in economic enterprises. If all Jews would suddenly have vanished from the enterprises, I would have reflected about it.
Q Excuse me. Those are inferences and conclusions from the letters which the Tribunal will have to draw for itself. It is perfectly Court No. II, Case No. 4.obvious to me that you were intimately connected with the extermination of the Jews and all this program.
Now, I've asked you, isn't it true that your office actually procured the gas for the extermination of the Jews? Wasn't that handled through Amtsgruppe D?
A I never had any knowledge of that at all, that Office Group D supplied the gas. I doubt that. I never saw anything of it. I never talked about it.
Q I'll show you a group of documents here. Perhaps that will refresh your recollection. First I should like to show you Document NO 2360, which I shall mark for identification as Exhibit 531. This is a teletype from Amtsgruppe D signed by Gluecks; and it is addressed to the commander of the concentration camp at Auschwitz.
MR. ROBBINS: I will ask that this be distributed; and I will ask that 2362 and 2363 be distributed also.
Q This is a cable from Gluecks to the commander of concentration camp Auschwitz. It reads: "Travel permit for a truck from Auschwitz to Dessau and back for the purpose of getting Zyklon gas is hereby granted for 30/7/43. The speciaL SS identification card is to be handed to the driver."
What does that mean to you?
A This is the first time I've seen this document. It does not concern itself with the supply of gas but is purely a travel permit for a trip from Auschwitz to Dessau which was necessary at that time because fuel was so short that it was put at the disposal of agencies only in urgent cases, and long distance trips which went beyond the district concerned had to be approved by a higher agency. That is the part we are concerned with here; and I knew nothing about the whole matter.
Q You think that this gas was used for fuel, do you, to warm the barracks and the SS homes?
A The fuel was approved for the trip from Auschwitz to Dessau which the document shows quite clearly. I am seeing this document for Court No. II, Case No. 4.the first time and did not know what Office Group D had to give the permit for.
Q What do you think the Zyklon gas was used for?
A I know now that Zyklon gas was used to exterminate Jews; but at that time I did not know it. I had nothing to do with it.
Q You know now that it was carried by Amtsgruppe D, don't you?
A I see this from this document, yes; that is to say, it was carried by trucks of the Auschwitz camp, and Office Group D had to get permission for that act, which I did not know before.
Q Then you state that you did not know that Amtsgruppe D was carrying out this function?
A No, I did not know that. That permission had to be given by Office Group D I did not know.
MR. ROBBINS: At this time I should like to mark for identification the other two documents which I have distributed, NO-2363 as Prosecution Exhibit 532, and NO-2362 as Prosecution Exhibit 533. The latter exhibit is a cable from Amtsgruppe D, Liebewenschel, to the concentration camp Auschwitz and reads:
"Your request for a five ton truck with trailer to go to Dessau and back for the purpose of getting material for the transfer of Jews is hereby approved.."
Q Also, in 1942 before the Posen speech the defendant Frank, who was working under you, prescribed the regulations regarding the utilization of property of the Jews who were being sent to the gas chambers, including the gold from the teeth, which was, according to his instructions, to be delivered to the WVHA, jewelry, precious stones and pearls, delivered to the WVHA, foreign exchange, valuable furs, to be delivered to the WVHA and on to the Reich but first delivered to the WVHA, watches, clocks, fountain pens, mechanical pencils, hand and electric razors, pocket knives and flash-lights, which, according to his instructions, were to be delivered to the WVHA and repaired by the WVHA, as shown in Exhibit 472 which the Tribunal discussed with you last week.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
It is in Document Book 18, Page 108, your Honor.
You recall that Frank gave those instructions, don't you?
A Yes, I recall them; but this document again does not show that all these things came from actions connected with the extermination of Jews. Himmler himself regarded it as stolen property. I was unable to say where they actually came from. Frank worked on it on the basis of directives which came from Himmler himself.
Q Himmler regarded it as stolen property all right because in Frank's order he says that all of this property which has been confiscated from the Jews is in the future to be called goods originating from thefts, receiving of stolen goods, and goods". You remember that in Frank's letter, don't you?
A Yes, I do.
Q They were stolen all right but it was stolen from the Jews, wasn't it?
A That is quite possible; but from Berlin I was unable to say.
Q It's not only possible, it is highly probable. It is not only probable; it is absolutely certain, isn't it? There's no doubt about it in your mind? This property didn't belong to the WVHA, did it? It was stolen from the Jews, wasn't it?
AAs it came from the East it couldn't belong to us. As far as all these actions were concerned, I had no active part; and from Berlin I was not able to form an impression where these things came from. I assumed at the time that they came from confiscated property, the confiscations carried out by the police and camp together. Other details were not known to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, you didn't give Document NO-2360 a number. Did you mean to?
MR. ROBBINS: I intended to give it the number Exhibit 531.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q You say you didn't know where it came from?
A It came from the East. Where it came from and what the story Court No. II, Case No. 4.was behind it I have later on learned on the basis of the evidence which Globocnik supplied to me.
I could only form a real picture of these matters slowly by the various documents which reached me as time went on. Nobody told me what would happen or what actually did happen and how all these things were gathered together. I never saw one single transport. Therefore I could not form an impression of how it was put together.
Q So you actually didn't form any impression. I'd like to show you Document Number 2571.
EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):
Q Witness, I am curious to know whether, as you learned of these vast quantities of goods coming in, if any image formed in your mind as to the origin of these goods.
A I never saw the individual transports but only in the end saw a sort of total list. We have transported so many goods in the war that these quantities of goods, when transported and so far as their extent was concerned, did not seem to me to be particularly large.
MR. ROBBINS: There were 825 carloads, weren't there? You knew that.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q 825 carloads is a rather sizeable mass of material?
A Well, that probably occurred in various individual transports which arrived and were distributed over a long period of time; and I didn't think it was too much. I did not think anything of it at all.
Q. Where did you think all these watches and founten pens and other writing instruments were coming from?
A. At the time I took from that all this came from confiscated property carried out by the police in a governmental tenor. I never saw the individual transport, or the individual objects, and most of the things did not strike me as such. The whole thing only reached my mind later on when I saw the bills which Globocnik sent to Himmler, and I received a copy. That was the beginning of 1944 when I got a time-over report which contained the figures; then I thought it was a bit clear, and I had no doubt then it was only confiscation, that there must have been something, that it must have been a sort of action as such. I then noticed the enormous figure in the first report in February 1943 when the textile objects were transported, and it was always that they came from the camp later at Auschwitz.
Q. Then it was not until the early part of 1944 that you realized these articles were being taken from individuals who had been executed?
A. At the beginning of 1944 I was the total report. I was able to make a clear picture of the extent of the confiscation without actually knowing they came from dead people, because the GovernmentGeneral did that sort of things where they were confiscated; all sorts of ghettos were combed out at that time, and it was not clear to me.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When did you know about this thing. It was before 1944. You knew about it when you received the report in Feburary 1943, about these valuables, and, you knew then that they were taken from Jews who had been executed, is that true?
A. In February 1943 it was reported of large textile reports which I signed. It came from Office Group-B, but I did not reflect about it.
It did not seem to me an awful lot. It was only textile from the warehouses at Lublin.
Q. Let's test that proposition. You are referring to Document 1257, the letter that you signed. That is Exhibit No. 479 for the Prosecution, and is in Book No. 18, which is on page 133 of your document book 18. I would like for you to turn to it. It is a letter signed by you, and "Report on the realization of textile-salvage from the Jewish resettlement up to the present date," and this is signed 6 February 1943. That is in Book 18, and enclosed with this letter is a statement on the quantity of old textile materials delivered from the camps of Lublin and Auschwitz by order of the SS Economic & Administrative Main Office, the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. And this is February 1943, and it talks about the delivery of one carload?
A. Yes.
Q. One entire carload of womens hair; it talks a about delivery of 15,000 childrens' overcoats; 11,000 boys jackets; 3;000 boys pants, and all of those went to the Reich Ministry of Economics. I.G. Farben got 4,000 sets of mens old clothing, and this all added up to a grand total of 825 carloads, and you have stated to us in an affidavit about this document, and I shall read to you and I will show you the affidavit in a moment. The Document is No. 1257, a part of these figures therein." It was clear to me that the majority of the textile products listed in this report had been taken from human beings who were forcibly put to death from life, and this was an action which purpose was the extermination of the Jews." Do you remember signing that affidavit?
A. But it was not quite clear to me at that time when I saw that report.
Q. But that is what you say in your affidavit. Take a look at the Document 2571 which I offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 534 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of the document, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: The affidavit is NO-2571.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. You say, "It was clear to me that the majority of the textile products," and you are talking about when you received this report, or, rather when you made the report. What do you have to say about that? It would have to be clear to you, wouldn't it, that these things were taken from dead people?
A. It was not clear to me at the time.
Q. Did you know that is true that they contained bullet holes and blood stains. There were orders to remove many of the blood stains?
A. I never saw the clothes myself, how can I say that. I never saw any individual transport, so I could never see any blood stains, or bullet holes.
Q. You know that there were orders to remove the blood stains, and to take out the clothes those that had large bullet holes in them. You knew these orders existed?
A. I never gave such orders.
Q. I did not say you gave such orders. I asked if you knew about such orders?
A. No, I did not know of the order at the time.
Q. It is perfectly clear from this report that you made here that these clothes came from dead Jews?
A. That report came from Office Group-B and I signed it at that time; it was not remarkable at that time that clothes, old clothes, secondhand clothes, were gathered, which was in the GovernmentGeneral. In the old Reich at this time of the year millions of clothes and shoes were being collected, and, secondhand clothes, so the textile factories in the Reich could receive them, therefore, at the time this happened also in the Government-General.
Q. You said in your affidavit it was clear to you that they were taken from human beings who were forcibly but to death, and you are talking about document No. 1257 which you signed.
It had to be clear to you?
A. No, that was an assumption. These words were put into my mouth by the interrogator, which we all do in these affidavits. They show what people would like to hear. It was not clear to me at the time, and I can not state I knew at the time these things came from dead people.
Q. You signed the affidavit, didn't you? You swore to the statement and you also swore to the statement which you had made to the affidavit, and you were given an opportunity to correct it if you wished, and you signed it because it was obvious to you that this was the truth? You were not forced to sign the affidavit, were you?
A. The phrases which are given to you when you have to sign an affidavit -- some of the defendants might say something about the way the affidavits are made to put these words in your mouth what was necessary. People always say at the time this and that and like this and that, and if you want to dispute it you were told this was not the truth; that this was quite a struggle about this affidavit, and I maintain --
Q. Where did you think that one carload of womens hair came from?
A. Womens hair came from all concentration camps. They were shorn where, as I said once before, I don't think these people were shorn after they were dead.
Q. I show you another affidavit in which you make the same statement. This is Document NO-2714. In this one you said it was never doubted this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in concentration camps. That is in paragraph 7. You are talking about in the Autumn of 1943. At this date this audit report told about the gold taken from the teeth -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Which document are you talking about?
MR. ROBBINS: I am talking now about the defendant's affidavit, No. 2714, which I had better mark for identification as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 535.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. In the report of Vogt's, and in the report of Frank's, it was made even earlier than this, the report of Frank's, in which there was a report of the gold taken from the teeth, gold fillings, spectacles, and at the time you did not have any doubt as to where that stuff came from, did you? You said it was never doubted but that this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in concentration camps. That was perfectly clear to you, wasn't it?
A. I assume that it was in 1943 -- after October 1943 it was when Himmler told the Jews would be exterminated, and slowly, as I said before, it became clear to me from the report which reached me concerning the things which I had never seen before, the objects, and it became clearer and clearer to me what really happened.
Q. I see, just a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: You found out definitely in January 1944 that the Jews were being exterminated as a matter of policy by the Reich, is that true?
THE WITNESS: The first official information that it was a Reich policy I received from Himmler's speech in October 1943.
Q. Well, you said a while ago that in January of 1944 you knew he Jews then had been exterminated in concentration camps, at least you know that at that time if not earlier.
A. In January 1944 on the basis of the reports by Globocnik it became clean to me, although nobody had told no where these things came from, that then I had very strong assumptions that these things must come from certain actions, but neither Globocnik nor Himmler told me, "This comes from dead Jews." All these were assumptions on which I based myself.
Q. Now, wait a minute, I will take your own version of it. When you got Globocnik's report you said that you then became convinced, you were sure that Jews were being exterminated as a matter of Reich policy. Is that true? Nor, don't argue with me, just tell me, is that true.
A. In January 1944 I had to reach that conclusion.
Q. Yes. There was no doubt in your mind after that, was there?
A. After that time it was clear to me that these things must come from an action in the cast.
Q. And by an action you mean a policy of extermination?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long did you continue as head of WVHA after that?
A. Until the surrender.
Q. That is right, and that was about fourteen months later, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Sixteen months later?
A. Yes.
Q. How many Jews were exterminated in those sixteen months?
A. I do not know. Not one single case was there when a report would reach me about the extermination of Jews. No figures ever reached me. I do not know to this day what the figure of exterminated Court, 2, Case 4 Jews should be.
I have to base myself on assumptions. I have no official evidence and never had it.
Q. Never mind official evidence. I'm talking about what came into your mind, what you learned officially or otherwise. You do know, do you not, that the pogrom of extermination was increased, it was stepped up toward the end of the war?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No, I do not know how long it went on for and to what extent. I don't know that.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Now, you say that you didn't know before '43 that Jews were being exterminated. You told us that you were in Auschwitz several times in 1943 and in 1944, but you have ommitted to tell us that you were there in 1942 when Jews were being exterminated. You were there then, weren't you?
A. Yes, I was in Auschwitz in 1942 or 1943, but nothing became known to me that Jews were being exterminated as part of a planned action.
Q. You know, don't you, that in September, as a matter of fact the 6th of September, 1942, you were in Auschwitz the day after, the morning after a big action against the Jews in which hundreds of Jews were exterminated took place, and you were informed then in September 1942, that mass exterminations of Jews were taking place and that one large action had taken place on the previous day. You recall that, don't you?
A. In September, 1942? No, I was not informed about that.
Q. I would like to show you a document which I think will refresh your recollection as to the events of that date. I said the second of September, the 6th of September, I mean the 23rd of Septem ber.
Does that adat mean anything to you?
A. No. It is impossible that after five years I should be able to say the day that I was in Auschwitz or anywhere else. It is quite impossible. I don't deny that I was at Auschwitz, but I don't know when it was.
Q. I am not asking you to give us the exact date. I am just asking you if you were at Auschwitz in September, 1942, and were told that Jews were being exterminated then and that a mass execution had taken place on the previous day and that the loot from these people was being confiscated?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. You don't recall being at Auschwitz and being told that a mass execution of Jews had taken place on the previous day?
A. I say I must have been there in 1942. I went to Auschwitz once or twice a year, certainly 1942, but that any report would have reached me about extermination of Jews, which was not part of my duties I cannot recall.
Q. I will hand you a diary, which is the diary of Professor Dr. Kremer, who was an SS physician stationed at Auschwitz, and Kremer is now on trial in Poland, and this document was used in evidence against him. Will you turn to the entry marked with a paper clip on the 1st of September, 1942, and read it to us, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait until they got straightened out in the interpreter's box.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) It is on the first page. Will you read the entry for the first of September, 1942?
A. "Sent a written order to Berlin for a leader-cap belt and braces. In the afternoon present at a gassification of a block with Zyklon B against lice."
Q. Will you read the entry for the next day, September 2, 1942?
A. "First time present at a special action at 3 hours in the morning. Compared with this the Inferno by Dante seems to me a comedy. Auschwitz is not called for nothing the camp of extermination."
Q. Will you read the entry for the 5th of September, 1942?
A. "This afternoon present at a special action from the female concentration camp (Muselmaenner), the worst I have ever seen. Thilo, doctor of the troops, is right when he told me this morning that we a are at anus mundi. In the evening at approximately 8 hours present at a special action from Holland. Men all want to take part in these actions because of the special rations they get then, consisting of a fifth of a liter of schnapps, 5 cigarettes, 100 grams of sausage and bread."
Q. The next entry for the 6th and 7th of September, 1942.
A. "Today Tuesday, excellent lunch: tomato soup, half a hen with potatoes and red cabbage, sweets, a marvelous vanilla ice. After lunch introduced to the--"
Q. Will you skip from there to the last sentence for that day, "In the evening at 8 hours outside for a special action."
A. In the evening at 8 O'clock outside for a special action."
Q. Will you read the last sentence for 9 September, 1942, "In the evening present at a special action (4 times)."
A. "How many doubles have I got in this world? In the evening present at a special action."
Q. And for the next day.
A. "In the morning present at a special action, 5th time."
Q. Then will you follow me on the 30th of September, 1942: "Last night present at the 8th special action. 7th October, 1942. Present at the 9th special action. Foreigners and females." And for 11th October, 1942, "For lunch we had today, Sunday, a hare, a big leg, with plain dumplings and red cabbage for 1.25 Reichsmarks." And on the next day, "Innoculation against typhus. After that in the evening, fever, in spite of being present at a special action during the night (1600 persons from Holland). Terrible scene outside the last bunker. That was the 10th special action." And for 15 October, 1942, "Living material of liver, spleen and pancreas taken out from a sectarian."
For the 18th of October, 1942, "In wet cold weather present at the 11th special action (Dutchmen) on Sunday morning. Shocking scenes with 3 women who beseeched us for their naked lives. 8 November, 1942. Took part in the 2nd special actions last night in rainy weather, 12 and 13."
Now will you turn back to the entry for the 23rd of September, 1942. "Last night present at the 6th and 7th special action. In the morning Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl arrived with his staff in the house of the Waffen SS. The guard outside the door was the first who saulted me. In the evening at 2000 hours dinner with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in the leaderhouse, a real banquet. We had baked pike, as much as we wanted, good coffee, excellent ale and rolls." Do you remember being there oh the 23rd of September, 1942? You recall that, don't you?
A. I recall that very well. It is quite possible, as I said before, the house of the Waffen SS was outside of the camp, and in no sense of the word did I go to the gassings. I had nothing to do with that.
Q. I didn't ask you if you went to the gassings. I asked you if they didn't tell you a mass execution had taken place in the previous morning or rather the previous night, a few hours before your arrival?
A. No, that is incorrect.
Q. They didn't tell you that thousands of people were killed a few hours before you arrived; a special action took place in which people beseeched for their naked lives? Nothing was said about it?
A. No word was said about it. I did not talk to one man about going because it was not part of my duty.
Q. What did you talk about as you ate your baked pike and excellent ale and rolls? What did you talk about there at Auschwitz?
A. I was not present at this dinner. I lived in the house of the Waffen SS, and in the evening perhaps I dined in the Officers' Mess, and if I went to Auschwitz, or when I went to Auschwitz, I went in my official car and I went about construction matters. Gassings were not part of my duties, and I did not ask about that.