Q. Where did you think all these watches and founten pens and other writing instruments were coming from?
A. At the time I took from that all this came from confiscated property carried out by the police in a governmental tenor. I never saw the individual transport, or the individual objects, and most of the things did not strike me as such. The whole thing only reached my mind later on when I saw the bills which Globocnik sent to Himmler, and I received a copy. That was the beginning of 1944 when I got a time-over report which contained the figures; then I thought it was a bit clear, and I had no doubt then it was only confiscation, that there must have been something, that it must have been a sort of action as such. I then noticed the enormous figure in the first report in February 1943 when the textile objects were transported, and it was always that they came from the camp later at Auschwitz.
Q. Then it was not until the early part of 1944 that you realized these articles were being taken from individuals who had been executed?
A. At the beginning of 1944 I was the total report. I was able to make a clear picture of the extent of the confiscation without actually knowing they came from dead people, because the GovernmentGeneral did that sort of things where they were confiscated; all sorts of ghettos were combed out at that time, and it was not clear to me.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. When did you know about this thing. It was before 1944. You knew about it when you received the report in Feburary 1943, about these valuables, and, you knew then that they were taken from Jews who had been executed, is that true?
A. In February 1943 it was reported of large textile reports which I signed. It came from Office Group-B, but I did not reflect about it.
It did not seem to me an awful lot. It was only textile from the warehouses at Lublin.
Q. Let's test that proposition. You are referring to Document 1257, the letter that you signed. That is Exhibit No. 479 for the Prosecution, and is in Book No. 18, which is on page 133 of your document book 18. I would like for you to turn to it. It is a letter signed by you, and "Report on the realization of textile-salvage from the Jewish resettlement up to the present date," and this is signed 6 February 1943. That is in Book 18, and enclosed with this letter is a statement on the quantity of old textile materials delivered from the camps of Lublin and Auschwitz by order of the SS Economic & Administrative Main Office, the WVHA?
A. Yes.
Q. And this is February 1943, and it talks about the delivery of one carload?
A. Yes.
Q. One entire carload of womens hair; it talks a about delivery of 15,000 childrens' overcoats; 11,000 boys jackets; 3;000 boys pants, and all of those went to the Reich Ministry of Economics. I.G. Farben got 4,000 sets of mens old clothing, and this all added up to a grand total of 825 carloads, and you have stated to us in an affidavit about this document, and I shall read to you and I will show you the affidavit in a moment. The Document is No. 1257, a part of these figures therein." It was clear to me that the majority of the textile products listed in this report had been taken from human beings who were forcibly put to death from life, and this was an action which purpose was the extermination of the Jews." Do you remember signing that affidavit?
A. But it was not quite clear to me at that time when I saw that report.
Q. But that is what you say in your affidavit. Take a look at the Document 2571 which I offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 534 for identification.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of the document, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: The affidavit is NO-2571.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. You say, "It was clear to me that the majority of the textile products," and you are talking about when you received this report, or, rather when you made the report. What do you have to say about that? It would have to be clear to you, wouldn't it, that these things were taken from dead people?
A. It was not clear to me at the time.
Q. Did you know that is true that they contained bullet holes and blood stains. There were orders to remove many of the blood stains?
A. I never saw the clothes myself, how can I say that. I never saw any individual transport, so I could never see any blood stains, or bullet holes.
Q. You know that there were orders to remove the blood stains, and to take out the clothes those that had large bullet holes in them. You knew these orders existed?
A. I never gave such orders.
Q. I did not say you gave such orders. I asked if you knew about such orders?
A. No, I did not know of the order at the time.
Q. It is perfectly clear from this report that you made here that these clothes came from dead Jews?
A. That report came from Office Group-B and I signed it at that time; it was not remarkable at that time that clothes, old clothes, secondhand clothes, were gathered, which was in the GovernmentGeneral. In the old Reich at this time of the year millions of clothes and shoes were being collected, and, secondhand clothes, so the textile factories in the Reich could receive them, therefore, at the time this happened also in the Government-General.
Q. You said in your affidavit it was clear to you that they were taken from human beings who were forcibly but to death, and you are talking about document No. 1257 which you signed.
It had to be clear to you?
A. No, that was an assumption. These words were put into my mouth by the interrogator, which we all do in these affidavits. They show what people would like to hear. It was not clear to me at the time, and I can not state I knew at the time these things came from dead people.
Q. You signed the affidavit, didn't you? You swore to the statement and you also swore to the statement which you had made to the affidavit, and you were given an opportunity to correct it if you wished, and you signed it because it was obvious to you that this was the truth? You were not forced to sign the affidavit, were you?
A. The phrases which are given to you when you have to sign an affidavit -- some of the defendants might say something about the way the affidavits are made to put these words in your mouth what was necessary. People always say at the time this and that and like this and that, and if you want to dispute it you were told this was not the truth; that this was quite a struggle about this affidavit, and I maintain --
Q. Where did you think that one carload of womens hair came from?
A. Womens hair came from all concentration camps. They were shorn where, as I said once before, I don't think these people were shorn after they were dead.
Q. I show you another affidavit in which you make the same statement. This is Document NO-2714. In this one you said it was never doubted this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in concentration camps. That is in paragraph 7. You are talking about in the Autumn of 1943. At this date this audit report told about the gold taken from the teeth -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Which document are you talking about?
MR. ROBBINS: I am talking now about the defendant's affidavit, No. 2714, which I had better mark for identification as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 535.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. In the report of Vogt's, and in the report of Frank's, it was made even earlier than this, the report of Frank's, in which there was a report of the gold taken from the teeth, gold fillings, spectacles, and at the time you did not have any doubt as to where that stuff came from, did you? You said it was never doubted but that this loot was taken from Jews exterminated in concentration camps. That was perfectly clear to you, wasn't it?
A. I assume that it was in 1943 -- after October 1943 it was when Himmler told the Jews would be exterminated, and slowly, as I said before, it became clear to me from the report which reached me concerning the things which I had never seen before, the objects, and it became clearer and clearer to me what really happened.
Q. I see, just a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: You found out definitely in January 1944 that the Jews were being exterminated as a matter of policy by the Reich, is that true?
THE WITNESS: The first official information that it was a Reich policy I received from Himmler's speech in October 1943.
Q. Well, you said a while ago that in January of 1944 you knew he Jews then had been exterminated in concentration camps, at least you know that at that time if not earlier.
A. In January 1944 on the basis of the reports by Globocnik it became clean to me, although nobody had told no where these things came from, that then I had very strong assumptions that these things must come from certain actions, but neither Globocnik nor Himmler told me, "This comes from dead Jews." All these were assumptions on which I based myself.
Q. Now, wait a minute, I will take your own version of it. When you got Globocnik's report you said that you then became convinced, you were sure that Jews were being exterminated as a matter of Reich policy. Is that true? Nor, don't argue with me, just tell me, is that true.
A. In January 1944 I had to reach that conclusion.
Q. Yes. There was no doubt in your mind after that, was there?
A. After that time it was clear to me that these things must come from an action in the cast.
Q. And by an action you mean a policy of extermination?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. How long did you continue as head of WVHA after that?
A. Until the surrender.
Q. That is right, and that was about fourteen months later, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Sixteen months later?
A. Yes.
Q. How many Jews were exterminated in those sixteen months?
A. I do not know. Not one single case was there when a report would reach me about the extermination of Jews. No figures ever reached me. I do not know to this day what the figure of exterminated Court, 2, Case 4 Jews should be.
I have to base myself on assumptions. I have no official evidence and never had it.
Q. Never mind official evidence. I'm talking about what came into your mind, what you learned officially or otherwise. You do know, do you not, that the pogrom of extermination was increased, it was stepped up toward the end of the war?
A. No, I do not know that.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No, I do not know how long it went on for and to what extent. I don't know that.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Now, you say that you didn't know before '43 that Jews were being exterminated. You told us that you were in Auschwitz several times in 1943 and in 1944, but you have ommitted to tell us that you were there in 1942 when Jews were being exterminated. You were there then, weren't you?
A. Yes, I was in Auschwitz in 1942 or 1943, but nothing became known to me that Jews were being exterminated as part of a planned action.
Q. You know, don't you, that in September, as a matter of fact the 6th of September, 1942, you were in Auschwitz the day after, the morning after a big action against the Jews in which hundreds of Jews were exterminated took place, and you were informed then in September 1942, that mass exterminations of Jews were taking place and that one large action had taken place on the previous day. You recall that, don't you?
A. In September, 1942? No, I was not informed about that.
Q. I would like to show you a document which I think will refresh your recollection as to the events of that date. I said the second of September, the 6th of September, I mean the 23rd of Septem ber.
Does that adat mean anything to you?
A. No. It is impossible that after five years I should be able to say the day that I was in Auschwitz or anywhere else. It is quite impossible. I don't deny that I was at Auschwitz, but I don't know when it was.
Q. I am not asking you to give us the exact date. I am just asking you if you were at Auschwitz in September, 1942, and were told that Jews were being exterminated then and that a mass execution had taken place on the previous day and that the loot from these people was being confiscated?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. You don't recall being at Auschwitz and being told that a mass execution of Jews had taken place on the previous day?
A. I say I must have been there in 1942. I went to Auschwitz once or twice a year, certainly 1942, but that any report would have reached me about extermination of Jews, which was not part of my duties I cannot recall.
Q. I will hand you a diary, which is the diary of Professor Dr. Kremer, who was an SS physician stationed at Auschwitz, and Kremer is now on trial in Poland, and this document was used in evidence against him. Will you turn to the entry marked with a paper clip on the 1st of September, 1942, and read it to us, please?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait until they got straightened out in the interpreter's box.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) It is on the first page. Will you read the entry for the first of September, 1942?
A. "Sent a written order to Berlin for a leader-cap belt and braces. In the afternoon present at a gassification of a block with Zyklon B against lice."
Q. Will you read the entry for the next day, September 2, 1942?
A. "First time present at a special action at 3 hours in the morning. Compared with this the Inferno by Dante seems to me a comedy. Auschwitz is not called for nothing the camp of extermination."
Q. Will you read the entry for the 5th of September, 1942?
A. "This afternoon present at a special action from the female concentration camp (Muselmaenner), the worst I have ever seen. Thilo, doctor of the troops, is right when he told me this morning that we a are at anus mundi. In the evening at approximately 8 hours present at a special action from Holland. Men all want to take part in these actions because of the special rations they get then, consisting of a fifth of a liter of schnapps, 5 cigarettes, 100 grams of sausage and bread."
Q. The next entry for the 6th and 7th of September, 1942.
A. "Today Tuesday, excellent lunch: tomato soup, half a hen with potatoes and red cabbage, sweets, a marvelous vanilla ice. After lunch introduced to the--"
Q. Will you skip from there to the last sentence for that day, "In the evening at 8 hours outside for a special action."
A. In the evening at 8 O'clock outside for a special action."
Q. Will you read the last sentence for 9 September, 1942, "In the evening present at a special action (4 times)."
A. "How many doubles have I got in this world? In the evening present at a special action."
Q. And for the next day.
A. "In the morning present at a special action, 5th time."
Q. Then will you follow me on the 30th of September, 1942: "Last night present at the 8th special action. 7th October, 1942. Present at the 9th special action. Foreigners and females." And for 11th October, 1942, "For lunch we had today, Sunday, a hare, a big leg, with plain dumplings and red cabbage for 1.25 Reichsmarks." And on the next day, "Innoculation against typhus. After that in the evening, fever, in spite of being present at a special action during the night (1600 persons from Holland). Terrible scene outside the last bunker. That was the 10th special action." And for 15 October, 1942, "Living material of liver, spleen and pancreas taken out from a sectarian."
For the 18th of October, 1942, "In wet cold weather present at the 11th special action (Dutchmen) on Sunday morning. Shocking scenes with 3 women who beseeched us for their naked lives. 8 November, 1942. Took part in the 2nd special actions last night in rainy weather, 12 and 13."
Now will you turn back to the entry for the 23rd of September, 1942. "Last night present at the 6th and 7th special action. In the morning Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl arrived with his staff in the house of the Waffen SS. The guard outside the door was the first who saulted me. In the evening at 2000 hours dinner with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in the leaderhouse, a real banquet. We had baked pike, as much as we wanted, good coffee, excellent ale and rolls." Do you remember being there oh the 23rd of September, 1942? You recall that, don't you?
A. I recall that very well. It is quite possible, as I said before, the house of the Waffen SS was outside of the camp, and in no sense of the word did I go to the gassings. I had nothing to do with that.
Q. I didn't ask you if you went to the gassings. I asked you if they didn't tell you a mass execution had taken place in the previous morning or rather the previous night, a few hours before your arrival?
A. No, that is incorrect.
Q. They didn't tell you that thousands of people were killed a few hours before you arrived; a special action took place in which people beseeched for their naked lives? Nothing was said about it?
A. No word was said about it. I did not talk to one man about going because it was not part of my duty.
Q. What did you talk about as you ate your baked pike and excellent ale and rolls? What did you talk about there at Auschwitz?
A. I was not present at this dinner. I lived in the house of the Waffen SS, and in the evening perhaps I dined in the Officers' Mess, and if I went to Auschwitz, or when I went to Auschwitz, I went in my official car and I went about construction matters. Gassings were not part of my duties, and I did not ask about that.
It was not talked about. I did not know that there were daily gassings all the time.
Q. Do you remember if you had a good meal there at Auschwitz?
THE PRESIDENT: Recess.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Access was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal II is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, for what reason did you go to Auschwitz on the 23rd of September 1942? Do you remember now why you went there?
A. I'm quite sure that I didn't go for the gassing.
Q. I didn't ask you what you did not go for; I am asking you what you did go for.
A. For the reasons I usually visited the concentration camps. Most of the time they were managerial questions and construction questions. I cannot recall that there were any particular reasons in 1942 why I should have gone there.
Q. Did you see the defendant Sommer while you were there?
A. No, I can't recall that Sommer was with me or alone in Auschwitz in 1942.
Q. You don't remember whether you saw Sommer on that day or not?
A. No.
Q. You still maintain that you heard nothing about the mass extermination of Jews before October 1943?
A. Well, so far we have been speaking about Lublin. As to man extermination in Auschwitz.......
Q. no, we were talking about the extermination of Jews. We weren't talking about any particular place. I asked you if you still maintained that you heard nothing about the mass extermination of Jews before October 1943.
A. Up to that date it was not known to me that there was an extermination plan by the Reichsregierung, nor did I know to what extent Jews were being exterminated. I received no evidence to that effect.
Q. I'll show you another document which I think will refresh your recollection a good deal.
THE PRESIDENT: Meanwhile, Mr. Robbins, do you have a translation of the diary to which you were referring?
MR. ROBBINS: I have only one copy, your Honor. That is being made.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): For identification what are you going to number this?
MR. ROBBINS: This will be 536. This is Document 4045-PS. It was an exhibit in the International Military Tribunal and was used in evidence in that case, presented by the prosecution for the Government of Great Britain as GB Exhibit 549, presented to that Tribunal on the 5th of August 1945.
Q. I should like to read a part of this to you, witness, and see if this doesn't help your memory somewhat. I will begin with the second paragraph. First I should state for the record that this is an affidavit of the defendant Oswald Pohl, sworn to on the 15th of July 1946 before Dr. Robert M. W. Kempner, who is one of the Division Chiefs of OCCWC, and Walter H. Rapp, who is head of the Evidence Division of OCCWC, and a third person.
"2. Through my activity as Chief of the WVHA I remember clearly two large business deals between my office and the Reich Ministry of Economics and the Reich Bank of Mr. Walter Funk." I might say this was used in evidence against Funk. "One deal concerned textiles from persons killed in concentration camps. In this connection Himmler endeavored to procure through Reich Economics Minister Walter Funk a higher allotment for the SS in the uniform material distribution. The other business deal concerned the business connection of my office with the Reich Bank President, Walter Funk, and the Reich Bank with regard to jewelry, rings, gold teeth, foreign exchange and other articles of value from the possessions of people, particularly Jews, who had been killed in concentration camps.
"3. The connection of my office with the Reich Bank with regard to textiles of persons who had been killed in concentration camps was instituted in the year 1941 or 1942. At that time I received the order from the Reichsfuehrer-SS and the German Police, Heinrich Himmler, who was my chief, to get in touch with the Reich Economics Minister, Walter Funk, to obtain a higher allotment of textiles for SS uniforms. Himmler instructed me to demand from Funk that we receive privileged treatment. The Ministry of Economics was receiving from the concentration camps a large amount of textiles delivered. These textiles had been collected in the extermination camp Auschwitz and other extermination camps, and then delivered to the proper office for used textiles.
"4. As a result of this order received from my superior, Himmler, I visited the Reich Economics Minister, Funk, in his offices. I waited only a short while in his ante-room and then met him alone in his office. I informed Funk of my instructions that I was to ask him for more textiles for Waffen-SS uniforms, as we could deliver so many old textiles from the actions against Jews. I told him that we required these textiles for the Waffen-SS. The meeting lasted around ten minutes." I particularly emphasize the next sentence of the affidavit. "It was openly discussed that we earned perhaps privileged treatment on account of the delivery of old clothes from dead Jews. It was a friendly conversation between Funk and myself and he said to me that he would settle the matter favorable with the gentlemen concerned.
How the subsequent settlement between Funk and his subordinates and my subordinates was handled in detail I do not know.
"5. The second business deal between Walter Funk and the SS concerned the delivery of articles of value of dead Jews to the Reich Bank." I emphasize the next sentence. "It was in the year 1941 or 1942 after larger quantities of articles of value, such as jewelry, gold rings, gold fillings, spectacles, gold watches and such had been collected in the extermination camps." I skip down two or three sentences. "In this conversation no doubt remained that the objects to be delivered were the jewelry and valuables of concentration camp inmates, especially of Jews, who had been killed in extermination camps. The objects in question were rings, watches, eye glasses, gold bars, wedding rings, broaches, pins, frames of glasses, foreign currency, and other valuables. Further discussions concerning the delivery of these objects took place between my subordinates and Puhl and other gentlemen of the Reichsbank. It was a giant quantity of valuables, since the delivery continued for months and years.
"A part of these valuables of people killed in death camps I saw myself when Reichsbank President Funk and Vice President Puhl invited us to an inspection of the Reichsbank vaults and subsequently to dinner. I don't remember exactly whether this was in 1941 or in 1942 but I do remember that I already knew Funk personally at that time from the textile industry, as I have described above. Vice President Puhl and several other gentlemen of my staff went to the vaults of the Reichsbank. Puhl himself led us on this occasion and showed us gold bars and other valuable possessions of the Reichsbank. I remember exactly that various trunks of objects from concentration camps were opened. At this time Puhl or Waldhecker, who accompanied him, stated in my presence and in the presence of the gentlemen of my staff that a part of these valuables had been delivered by our office.
"After we had inspected the various valuables in the vaults of the Reichsbahk, we went upstairs to a room in order to have dinner with Reichsbahk President Funk; this had been arranged for the time following the inspection. Besides Funk and Puhl the gentlemen of my staff were present; we were about 10 to 12 persons. I sat beside Funk and we talked among other things about the valuables which I had seen in his vaults. On this occasion it was clearly stated that a part of the valuables which we had seen came from concentration camps."
Q. I am not asking you any questions about this document, witness. I would like next to ask you if-
THE WITNESS: But I would like to say something about this.
MR. ROBBINS: But I don't care to have any comment on it now whatever.
THE PRESIDENT: Your own counsel will give you that opportunity later, witness.
MR. ROBBINS: The document obviously speaks for itself.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. I would like to ask you next, on the night of 6 February 1943 is it true that the defendant Hohberg stated in a letter that he had turned over all of his auditors to to Globocnik for use in auditing "Action Reinhardt". You remember the letter, do you not? It is in Document Book 18, and it is Exhibit No. 390, the letter of Hohberg's. I think I can read it to refresh your recollection. It is the letter that Hohberg wrote to Bobermin, in which Hohberg had requested auditors, and Bobermin wrote back he had no auditors because they had all been sent to Globocnik for use in a special task in the East. That is in the document. I want to ask you this. Is it true that Hohberg and Bobermin were completely informed about the "Action Reinhardt" and of what was going on in the East, and took part in the auditing of those funds?
A. I think it is impossible. I would like to see that document to which you are referring. I mean the letter from Hohberg to Bobermin. I would like to read it before.
Q. It is on page 111 of your book, Book 18, page 88 of the English book, Exhibit 390.
A. 319?
Q. It is Document NO-1005 on page 111.
A. However, that is not in Document Book 18. In which book is it?
JUDGE MUSMANNO: It is in Book 16.
MR. ROBBINS. In my document book it is 18. It is NO-1005.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't have it in here.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. It says, "I am extremely sorry that my reply has to be in the negative. All available auditors who have not already been conscripted into the army, or sent to other places of duty, are earmarked for a special task to be carried out at Lublin under the direction of SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik and SS-Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Horn." Hohberg sent his auditors out there to help him in this enterprise didn't he?
A. No, Hohberg had nothing to do with the auditing. The first checking was carried out in June, 1943, by Vogt.
Q. That is the defendant Vogt?
A. Yes. This report here of 9 February 1943 according to my opinion can only refer to the transfer of Horn or to the examination of the wage scale which was to be carried out at the time, but I don't know for sure for 9 February 1943 there was no question of checking Action Reinhardt. The first check took place in June, 1943, and Hohberg did not know anything about it.
Q. On the night of 9 February 1943 Globocnik was engaged in confiscating property in the East. Were these auditors sent out there to help Globocnik? Moreover it says in the letter--
A. I did not know that any auditors were there. According to my recollection this was an establishment of the OSTI, which took place around the same time.
Q. The OSTI handled the valuables collected from Action Reinhardt.
The OSTI was in the central part of Action Reinhardt?
A. No, the OSTI had nothing to do with Action Reinhardt directly. The OSTI was a consolidation of the enterprises established by Globocnik in a commercial form, for they had been operated before on a monopoly basis, and the foundation of OSTI took place almost exactly at the same time. Horn had been transferred for this purpose to Lublin for the establishment of OSTI. Until that time he had been an auditor of Hohberg, I believe.
Q. Maybe I can get at the point a little faster. It is true, isn't it, that all of your office chiefs knew about Action Reinhardt and knew what was taking place, and they were giving their support to the WVHA after that date?
A. No, that is not correct.
Q. But they knew about it, didn't they?
A. That all of my Amt chiefs knew of the Action Reinhardt is impossible. It could not possibly be correct because of the secrecy. Only Melmer knew of Action Reinhardt, and Frank was the one who wrote up the regulations about it, or directives, but I know of no one else that had participated in the Action Reinhardt.
Q. And that was because of the secrecy regulation that nobody knew about it?
A. Yes, it was kept very secret. It also occurred to me, after the first half of 1943, I wanted to transfer Wippert. That is -the personnel office wanted it -
Q. Excuse me, you answered the question.
A. Well, I just wanted to tell you something about the secrecy order.
Q. I would like to read to you from an interrogation of yourself which took place after you were captured. You were asked this question "Then Kalterbrunner had told the Tribunal there were only a handful of people in the RSHA who had any control and who knew anything about concentration camps." This was your answer: "Well, that is complete nonsense. I described to you how these were handled in the RSHA, as for instance, in the case of the use of textiles and the turning in of valuables, and also from Gluecks and Loerner right on down to the last little clerk, they all must have known what went on in the concentration camps, and it is complete nonsense for him to speak of just a handful of men." You gave that answer to the question, didn't you?
A. When was that supposed to be, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q. That was shortly after you were captured in 1946.
A. Yes. Well, on that occasion I may tell this Tribunal under what circumstances such statements were made. At that time I was arrested and on that evening -- this is important here -
Q. Excuse me, excuse me, just a moment, just a moment. I didn't ask you for that answer. I asked you if you made the answer to the question. If you want to bring out anything about the circumstances of the interrogation, your attorney can do that. I don't want the answer on that. I just want to know if this was your answer.
A. Well, if I signed it that is probably the answer.
DR. HOFFMAN: (For Defendant Scheide) Just a moment. This statement that was made now is one of the heaviest ever made, namely, when the defendant said that everyone of these defendants should have known about the Action Reinhard. Therefore, I would appreciate it if the Prosecution could possibly give us, the German defense counsel, this interrogation so that we can probably get statements about this. I would appreciate it if the question be not permitted unless we have the copy of those interrogations.
THE PRESIDENT: What you want, Dr. Hoffman, is a copy of the interrogation?
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: Well, your Honor, I will supply copies of these various interrogations. I think this is a rather fundamental question and certainly goes to the heart of the problem we have debated with defense counsel for a long time. I will give him a certified copy of the part that I have read and the part that pertains to this subject if that will satisfy the counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it a lengthy interrogation?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, it is, but I have no objection, without prejudicing my rights to object on further interrogations, of supplying a copy of what we have.
DR. HOFFMAN: Your Honor, I understood it very well when you said yesterday that the Prosecution could not probably know in advance and in part what they need in order to refresh the defendant's memory. However, I believe that such important documents as this one here, that is, which are decisive for all the defendants, the Prosecution can also prepare it in such manner that we receive copies about this matter in advance. I have to know when this interrogation of the defendant took place. I must also know by whom he was interrogated and if it was hold before an interrogator who was permitted to do so, an interrogator that was permitted to take such statements. All those questions are things which I would like to strike now during the cross-examination, not later on.