Q. What would you do when you were consulted?
A. Well, then I would have given the relevant instructions. Of course, today I don't recall whether such special cases ever arose and reached me.
Q. Can you tell us why these instructions were addressed to Amt A-1 and Amt A-d?
A. Amt A-1--well, Amt A-1, was part of the WVHA which dealt with the central regulations of this matter; and Amt A-4 was the agency which had a certain amount of experience because of the auditing in Lublin which was carried out in July 1943; and both agencies took notice of this decree. All other agencies did.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): Just one question. Witness, right under the title on the left-hand side of the page at the top where it says, "The Chief of SS Economic and Administrative Main Office", right under that is this: "A II/3. Reinh." Doesn't that mean Action Reinhardt?
A. That means Reinhardt, yes.
THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): That's all.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. As I understand your explanation of this document, you say that you had nothing to do with formulating the Reich treasury regulations? Is that correct?
A. The Reich treasury regulations?
Q Which you are referring to in the documents?
A It was not up to me to issue Reich Treasury regulations. The Reich Treasury regulations came from the Reich Ministry of Finance.
Q You simply are instructions to your subordinate, and also to the other chiefs of the other Main Offices as to how these regulations were to be applied is that correct?
A Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS. Are you going to give us an exhibit number, Mr. Robbins?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes. No. 3161 I will number as Prosecution Exhibit No. 343 for identification.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: 543.
MR. ROBBINS 543 for identification.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q And in the course of your direct examination the Presiding Judge asked you this question in reference to this general subject matter the extermination of the Jews: "Were the gas chambers there in Ausschwitz concentration camp there operating when you were in charge." This is the transcript at page 1366, and you gave this answer: "I can not say that because I have visited Auschwitz only once in 1944, and perhaps twice in 1933. At that time I did not see that the Jews were being exterminated. I, therefore, do not know how long this program was under way." That testimony is not correct, is it?
A Well, it is correct as I gave it at the time, because I never saw the death chamber in operation and at the time I did not know when the whole extermination program started and when it stepped.
Q You knew when you visited Auschwitz in the Summer of 1944 that the exterminations were going on then, did you not?
A When I received the final reports from Globocnik in January 1944, I assumed that the extermination program was finished.
Q I would like to show you affidavit of yours which I believe will aid your memory. This is -
THE PRESIDENT: Before you finish with this exhibit, I have a question or two, Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I am talking about Exhibit No. 543, the last paper that was handed to you, witness.
THE WITNESS: May I have it back.
THE PRESIDENT: dill you look at paragraph two, the last sentence: "As a matter of principle it has to be kept in mind the entire Jewish property is to be incorporated into the Reich property." When you wrote this letter you knew that the program of confiscation of all Jewish property was under way, did you not?
THE WITNESS: It was not known to me, Mr. President, that Jewish property was to be confiscated, as a matter of principle. That was not know to me. I only thought of two cases were such property was transferred to the treasury of SS-Agencies.
Q Weel, I am reading your own words. This is what you said: "The entire Jewish property is to be incorporated into the Reich property. As a matter of principle, it is to be kept in mind."?
A Yes, insofar as it was already in the hands of the SS Agencies. A difference must be made, not the entire Jewish property which was outside the sphere of influence of the SS-Agencies, but I only kept in mind the property which was already in the hands of the SS Agencies, and that property as a matter of principle was to be transferred to the Reich. I was not in a position to confiscate Jewish property myself, I was unable to do that.
Q If I understand your explanation, that when you said "Entire Jewish property" you mean the entire Jewish property that had already been seized by the SS?
A It had not been seized by the SS.
Q It had been seized and delivered to the SS for the Reich?
A Yes, that is quite right, that is what I mean.
Q You never imagined that this meant all the Jewish property in the occupied territories in the General Governments and in the Protectorate?
A I don't understand the question Mr. President.
Q You did not mean when you said "Entire Jewish property" all the property owned by Jews in the occupied territories, in the General Government, and in the Protectorate?
A No, no, of course, I did not mean that.
Q All right, if that were so, why was there any need for secrecy. Read Paragraph 3. You talk about property that has been collected "Which can not be delivered to the authorities designated above for reasons of secrecy." What does that mean?
A I am afraid I don't know any more, in what connection this was.
Q Didn't you know what you meant when you read that?
A Weel, I can not recall it now, in what connection I put down those words. I don't understand it any more.
A Well, all these matters, for instance, were always regarded as a secret matter, and I cannot imagine that there was any special reasons for secrecy.
Q What you are speaking about is some particular special goods and valuables, which could not be delivered to authorities for reasons for secrecy.
Q What you are speaking about is some particular special goods and valuables, which could not be delivered to authorities for reasons of secrecy. What kind of goods and valuables did you mean?
A. I am afraid I don't know that any more, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Just a moment, Mr. Robbins. Well, will the interpreters give the court the literal translation of the words used in paragraph 3 "Reich Hauptkasse"?
THE INTERPRETER: I believe it would be Reich Main Treasury, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Reich Main Treasury?
THE INTERPRETER: I believe so, yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is translated in the document as "Department booty".
THE INTERPRETER: I believe, Your Honor, "Department booty", is really the "Haupt department" of the Reich Main Treasury.
THE PRESIDENT: What words do you translate as "Department booty"?
THE INTERPRETER: I believe the German would be "Beutestelle". It means Department for loot and booty.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Do you have the original German document there?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sir, we have that, the word used in the document.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. The affidavit that I have just handed you, witness, NO-2618, I shall mark that as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 544 for identification. This is your affidavit, is it not?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. I would like to read paragraph 3 of the affidavit: "During my visit to Auschwitz in the Summer of 1944, on the way to the agricultural working sites, I saw that a transport train which had apparently just arrived, was being unloaded. BEER, the camp commandant, an Obersturmbannfuehrer, who was accompanying me, declared that it consisted of Hungarian Jews. As I drove on I noticed that SS members were leading the prisoners forward in the direction of the train, where the extermination installations were, and apparently the prisoners were separated to all appearances, according to whether they were able or unable to work. I did not see any troops march from the unloading point to the extermination installations. In my estimation the transport numbered about 500 men. I did not stop at the place and did not get out of the car, but was only able to make these observations while driving."
You knew when you saw this operation, did you not, that these Jews were being exterminated or executed?
A. I did not know that, nor did I assume that at the time because I believed that they were new arrivals about to take part in labor allocation, because, personally, at that time I had Himmler's permission to employ also female Jewesses, from Hungary, and so furnish them for the "O.T.". Had I known they were going to be exterminated, that application to Himmler would have had no sense.
Q. "When you saw these Jews being separated, and those who could work being put in one line, and the others who could not work being headed towards the extermination installation, what did you think why they were driving the latter group towards the extermination installation for? What did you think what was being done with those Jews who were unable to work?
A. I did not see them march in that direction.
A. I did not see it--that they marchee in that direction.
Q. You say in your affidavit, "As I prove on I noticed that SS members were leading the prisoners forward in the direction of the train where the extermination installations were."
A. Yes, but then I saw I did not see any troops march from the unloading point to the extermination installation. While I drove past, all I saw was that the transport gathered near the train, but where it marched to I did not see because I only saw this from my car as I drove on.
Q. I would like to read a short excerpt from one of your interrogations of the 3rd of June 1946. The interrogation was made by Colonel Nrookhardt, who was one of Mr. Justice Jackson's interrogators, and you were asked this question by Colonel Brookhardt:
"A little earlier in 1944, particularly in the summer months, there was on extermination of a large number of Hungarian Jews; you recall that, do you not? " And you gave this answer:
"Yes, I know that exactly. I happened to be at Amschwitz at that time, and when I went through that territory around there I saw a convoy arriving--that is, a train convoy--in which these people were debarked from those trains. Upon my questioning him as to what that particular convoy was, Beer, who was accompanying me at that time, told me about that particular action.
Q. Describe it to us. What took place?
A. I saw the train emptying itself. I saw how these people were led down in a certain direction, in the direction of these installations. By 'installations' I mean liquidation installations, crematoria, and so forth. However, I did not follow that up.
Q. How many were there in each transport?
A. The train I saw was a normal train. I mean it was a freight train with freight cars. By just looking at that crowd of people, I would estimate that there could have been about 500. However, there might also have been 800; I am not sure.
I would say approximately between those figures.
Q. Do you know that the average transport carried about 2,000 or more? You know that, do you not?
A. That I don't know. That is the only transport I have ever seen.
Q. Out of that transport, how many were selected for labor and how many were selected for extermination?
A. That I don't know."
You say here in this interrogation that you did know that; You knew exactly that a large number of Hungarian Jews were exterminated in the summer months of 1944.
A. That knowledge I did not have in the summer of 1944, nor do I know to this day whether and to what extent these Hungarian Jews were exterminated. My interrogation, or my several interrogations in the summer of last year shortly after my transfer to Nurnberg, took place under extraordinary conditions, and the picture which I gave during my interrogations was a picture which had framed in my memory without my being able to base myself on knowledge gathered at the time. What I say in my last affidavit, for instance, is correct, as I gave it here.
Q. Well, you say in your last affidavit that you saw then leading the prisoners toward the extermination installations, but going back to your interrogation which was made almost exactly a year ago, a year ago tomorrow, is it your contention that on that day you could remember-
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for defendant Oswald Pohl): (Interposing) The Prosecution maintains that the affidavit, No-2618 shows that the defendant had admitted that he had seen how inmates had marched away toward the extermination installations. That conclusion is a contrerdiction of the contents of the affidavit, because it says literally-and I quote: "I did not see any troops march from the unloading point to the extermination installation."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the witness himself has pointed out that claimed distinction in the affidavit.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Is it your contention, witness, that a year ago today you remembered that you knew about the extermination of Jews but today you remember that you did not know? Is that the situation?
A. No, a year ago I knew more than I did in the summer of 1944. In the summer of 1944 I did not know that the Jews transported to Auschwitz were to be exterminated. I assumed at the time that they were to be incorporated into the labor program, which was my personal endeavor. This becomes clear from the document where I apply to Himmler/
Q. I'll just ask you one more question about this. I submit to you that it is patent--it is obvious on the fact, that either your testimony here today is false or your testimony which you gave under oath a year ago is false. All I am asking you is which is true and which is untrue, and I want to read you again just one sentence from your answer. You were asked the question:
"A little earlier in 1944, particularly in the summer months, there was an extermination of a large number of Hungarian Jews; You recall that, don't you?
Q. "Yes, I know that exactly. I happened to be at Auschwitz at that time."
In these statements of June and July 1946-
Q. I did not ask you about that. I just asked you which is false. One of them has to be. They are directly contradictory.
A. In june 1944 I did not know that Hungarian Jews had been exterminated or were to be exterminated in Auschwitz.
Q. And when you said you did, that was false testimony under oath? Is that correct?
A. Well, I do not know when I gained that knowledge after 1944. When I was interrogated under oath in June and July 1946, in certain cases, I knew more than at the time when the incidents occurred.
In June and July 1946 I made several statements in about 50 interrogations and I am unable today to maintain these statements, because they were given when I was in a mental state which I have left behind me since, both physically and mentally speaking.
Q. That mental state caused you to remember a good many facts then that you can not remember today; is that right?
A. I recall things much more clearly today than I did at the time a year ago. On the contrary, a year ago my memory was much less clear than it is today. How I have been in solitary confinement for a year and have studied all these documents, and, therefore, the picture in my memory is much clearer and much truer than it was a year ago, than it could be a year ago.
Q, I would like to turn now to another-
JUDGE MUSSMANO: Mr. Robbins, may I ask a question on this document? Have you given it an exhibit number?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes Your Honor, this is 544 for Identification. The affidavit?
JUDGE MUSSMANO: That's right.
BY JUDGE MUSSMANO:
Q. Before proceeding to the question on this affidavit--and it is merely one question--I want to follow up your last declaration with regard to a statement given a year ago. You say that your memory was less clear a year ago of events which were necessarily closer to you than they are today. Would your mental state cause you to remember things which did not happen or cause you to state things that you now say did not happen?
A. Well, these things were put to me--questions were put to me, and in the condition in which I found myself at the time I simply said Yes or No, without seeing these things any too clearly.
Q. Well, you see, it was not a question of your stating, "I do not remember," or It is not clear to me". You specifically and affirmatively declared that you precisely remembered.
What kind of a mental state is it which causes a person to say that he remembers precisely a thing which you now say did not happen?
A. I do not say that the things did not happen. All I say now is that I acquired knowledge about these things very much later.
Q. Well, your mental state was such, then, a year ago that you stated that you saw things which you did not actually see? Is that what you want the Tribunal to believe?
A. Yes, in certain cases, certainly.
Q. Referring to Exhibit 544, I invite your attention to paragraph (5) which says:
"In March 1945 Himmler ordered Gluecks and myself to report to him. Ho commissioned me to visit every camp commandant and to pass on the order that no more Jews were to be exterminated and those who were still alive were to be well treated."
Did that change in policy occur because it was then realized that the extermination policy was wrong, morally and in every other way, or was it because the collapse was imminent and there was a desire to have as little evidence presented as possible to those who might investigate the extermination program? Which, one was it, of these two?
A. Himmler never told me anything about this. Later on I heard that he stopped the program in order to had the surviving Jews as pawns in his foreign political game which he played in 1945, but neither Himmler nor anyone else authentically told me about this, and I only know this from hear say.
Q. That is your explanation?
A. Yes, it is.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. I would like to turn now to the last subject that I intend to interrogate you about, and that is a brief description of your position in German life. You were a general in the Waffen-SS, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you give us the dates during which you held that position?
A. I became a general in grade for the first time, I believe, in 1939 or 'r0. I became a Lieutenant-General when the first planning agency, general planning agency for the base troops was planned within the Reich budget. At that time I was a Gruppenfuehrer, and I was given the grade of a Lieutenant -General in the Waffen-SS. That must have been in 1939 or 1940. I am note quite certain as to the date. I became a general when I was promoted Obergruppenfuehrer in 1942.
Q. And that was when you were made chief of the WVHA, was it not?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. You were an SS-Gruppenfuehrer in the General-SS also, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And during what dates?
A. Well, I must make a correction here. Later on I was a member of the Waffen-SS and not the General-SS so that my grade as Obergruppenfuehrer of the Allgemeine-SS really does not apply.
Q. You were an Obergruppenfuehrer in the Allgemeine -SS, were you not?
Q. No, I was Obergruppenfuehrer in the Waffen-SS.
Q. And what position did you hold in the Allgemeine-SS?
A. In the Allgemeine-SS my highest grade was that of Gruppenfuehrer. That rank I held when I was transferred to the Waffen-SS.
Q. You were also Ministerial Director in the Reich Ministry of the Interior. Will you give us the dates of that position?
A. I became, as I recall it now, Ministerial Director, in 1938, and that appointment became void when I was put in charge of a planning agency within the Waffen-SS, which took place in 1939 or 1940. Therefore I held this position only for a short time. Once I was appointed Lieutenant-General in the Waffen-SS my position as a Ministerial Director became null and void.
Q. Witness, I have your personnel file here from the SS, and I would like to show it to you, and perhaps we can get some of the dates a little more exactly from it if you refresh your memory by looking at these files. I hand you Document NO-192 which I will mark for identification as Exhibit 545, NO-1225 as Exhibit 546, and NO-1228 as Exhibit 547. Can you tell us what Document NO.92 is, what it consists of? Just a moment until all of the copies are distributed. Will you first identify Document NO-192, which is Exhibit 545? Can you tell us what this is?
A. These page is a leadership questionnaire which came from SAObergruppe II at Stettin of the Nordmark. It deals with my personnel data during the time I was a member of the SA, SA leadership of Naval Detachment II at Kiel, and it is correct.
Q. The next one?
A. The second page is a personnel file which was compiled for every leader in an SS-administrative office, and it is also correct. The third page must have been an enclosure in my personnel file of some sort, and its contents are also correct.
Q. The defendant has Document NO-192. The dates and information given there are correct, is that right?
A. Yes, they are quite correct.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the date, it isn't clear in our copy, 21 June 19-- what? Right at the top of the document, NO-192, "Submitted to Fuehrer 21 June."
THE WITNESS: 1933, when I was a member of the SA in Kiel.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins.
MR. ROBBINS: I think this is 1940; 21 June, 1940.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) Will you look at the document you referred to as being on Page 2 in the original. 21 June 1940.
A. Page 2, do you mean?
THE PRESIDENT: It is the very first date of the document at the top of the document, right opposite the photograph.
THE WITNESS: 20th of June, 1933, on the first document, on top, below Fuehrer's Questionnaire.
THE PRESIDENT:NO-192?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there a photograph on that document, a picture?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Now, right near the picture it says, "Submitted to Fuehrer" in pencil.
THE WITNESS: Page 3 of my document, Page 3, of Document 192 there it says....
THE PRESIDENT: What is that date?
THE WITNESS: 21 June 1940.
THE PRESIDENT: 1940. That fixes it.
THE WITNESS: 21 June 1940.
Q. (By Mr. Robbins) You were also Reich Treasurer of the SS, were you not?
A. I was in charge of the Reich-treasury of the SS. That denomination was later changed into administrative chief of the SS. I was Reich Treasurer of the Allgemeine SS.
Q. Could you give us the period of time during which you held that position?
A. Well, I was in that position from 1934 up to the capitulation.
Q. You were also Reich Treasurer of the German Red Cross?
A. My official position there was called Plenipotentiary-General for all property matters of the German Red Cross.
Q. Did you ever hold any other position in the German Red Cross?
A. Before that appointment I was chief of the administrative office of the German Red Cross.
Q. Did you ever hold any other position in the German Red Cross?
A. No, no other position. I had a grade, I believe I was called Generalhhauptfuehrer, which was just a title, but not a position.
Q. Will you give us the dates during which you held official positions in the Red Cross?
A. I believe that I was chief of the administrative office from 1936 onwards up to, roughly, 1939 or 40. But I am not clear as to the exact date. Then I resigned as chief of the administrative office and was promoted to Plenipotentiary General in all property matters, in which capacity I remained until the end, 1945.
Q. You were also a member of the German Reichstag, were you not?
A. Yes, I was that for some months. I had to resign again because of my economic activities. Nobody was allowed to be a member of the Reichstag who was a member of a board of directors. That was the reason why I had to resign as a member of the Reichstag. I was an understudy, as it were, of the Reichstag, and I functioned as a member of the Reichstag for someone else.
Q. What month was that, do you recall?
A. It was during the war. I am not clear of the exact date. It was for only a very short period of time.
Q. Will you look at the Document NO-1225 which I have just handed you, as Exhibit 546? I should like to read a part of that to you. This is a certificate dated 31 October 1938:
"During the events of 8 and 9 November 1923 at Munich we party members from Kiel were staying together and were ready for action in the Seamen's Home at Kiel, Flaemischestrasse 21 under the code name 'Volksbund Uwe Jens Lornsen, Kampfbund fuer Deutsche Volksrechte e.V.' (People's Association Uwe Jens Lornsen, Association Fighting for the rights of the German People, registered association). Among its members there was also the present SS-Gruppenfuehrer, Party member Oswald Pohl, number of membership in the NSDAP 30842. A journey to Munich with the purpose to enter the city was not possible because of the then prevailing restrictions. To frustrate an interference by the police we had to destroy all papers, as for example membership cards, and so on. This may explain the absence of membership cards and of lists of the party members of that time."
Can you tell us what events are referred to there as happening on the 8th and 9th of November, 1923?
A. That was Hitler's first attempt to seize power.
Q. That was the so-called Munich Putsch?
A. Quite so.
Q. And can you tell us the significance of this certificate stating that you wanted to be present but that you were unable to be?
A. I was given this certificate in 1938 by the signatories, who were members of the People's Association Uwe Jens Lornsen, with the request that I should back up the application to receive the so-called "Blood Order" from the Party, as it was called. That "Blood Order" was a souvenir coin from the Munich Putsch and was issued only to those members of the Party who took part in Munich at the time. These old Kiel Party members believed to have a right to claim it for themselves if they used me as a support, because I had been in Munich at the time and was well connected with Party agencies. I did it, but success was negative and they were not given the "Blood Order". That is the history of that document.
Q. You were not given the Blood Order?
A. No, I did not receive it, nor did the others.
Q. This certificate was made for the purpose of helping you obtain the Blood Order, is that right?
A. Well, the certificate was drawn up without my active participation. The old members of Kiel wished to have it and they made me part of this group because they hoped for more success that way, if I used my influence in Munich - which I did. I went at that time to the agency concerned, but the application was turned down.
Q. You were an active supporter of the NSDAP at that time, were you not?
A. Well, that was not a local group of the NSDAP. Only the predecessors of the People's Association, which was the Uwe Jens Lornsen, were not part of the NSDAP.
Q. Well, you were active in that association, is that correct?
A. Yes, I was a member of it, and visited its meetings.
Q. Will you look at the next document which I gave you which is NO-1228, which I have marked--
THE PRESIDENT: 1224?
MR. ROBBINS: I haven't given him 1224 yet, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the one we have.
MR. ROBBINS: You also have 1228, do you not?
THE PRESIDENT: No.
MR. ROBBINS: It seems to have been distributed. I have two additional copies here. I distributed three documents a moment ago.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Some of the German counsel had the English.
MR. ROBBINS: I see.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Do you have this document, witness? It is the one that starts with the description of you: "Old National Socialist, alert and cheerful, an enemy of all paragraphs---"
Can the translators give us a translation of those words "An enemy of all paragraphs"? (To interpreters) Do you have the German there? What is the English equivalent?
INTERPRETER: I assume it means "anti-red-tape", but I am not positive.
MR. ROBBINS: "Paragraphs" is the literal interpretation?
INTERPRETER: Literal translation-- But I think it means somebody who is against red-tape, bureaucracy.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Can you identify the signature at the bottom of that letter?
A. That was Gruppenfuehrer Wittje.
Q. That is W-i-t-t-j-e?
A. Yes, Wittje.
Q. And do you know the purpose for which this letter is given?
A. I do not know, but I assume that the cause was perhaps a promotion - simply another entry into my personal files.
Q. I would next like to show you Document NO-1224, which I will mark as Exhibit 548 for identification. Can you tell us what this document is? This is signed by you, is it not?
A. Yes, I signed it.
Q. And what is it?
A. I will have to read it first. Well, it would appear to be a written statement from the time when I took part in a training course, the Reich Leader School in Munich, in the summer of 1932. At that time I was for four weeks at the SA Leadership School in Munich, where I took a training course from which period this written statement originated.
Q. It is dated the 24th of June, 1932?
A. No, it should be the 24th of August, 1932. Twenty-fourth August, 1932, is the correct date.
Q. Is that the date on the original photostat that you have?
A. Yes.
MR. ROBBINS: I should like to read the first three paragraphs, and then I will have no further questions on cross-examination:
"Why am I a National Socialist, and why an SA man?
"Because I was a National Socialist before National Socialism came into being, and thus the person I was, formed by heredity, education and environment, could only be politically satisfied by an idealistic conception of the world, such as that of National Socialism.
"Thus the unconscious instinct which was in my blood preceded the intellectual process of political realization. I could, therefore, not go through a political development in the Party sense.
"Equally, I could not remain passive either. Being a National Socialist, I became an SA man, because I realized that one was dependent on the other, and only the connection of both formed a whole, just as body and soul form the live man."
I have no further questions on cross-examination.
