The Waffen-SS was part of the Reich, and that applied to the Security Main Office.
Q That is, the Gestapo being part of the RSHA, and was an office in the RSHA?
A Yes.
Q And was subordinate to it, was it not?
A Yes.
Q And the RSHA was one of the Main Offices in the Reich Leadership of the SS?
A Yes. However, the Reich Leadership SS always consisted of two parts, the Reichsfuehrer-SS was party official, and, the Chief of German Police was a Reich official; in other words he had two branches there, which had been separated from each other. It was absolutely separated, and even this Gestapo was in the Reich Security Service, and, then, in spite of that it was strictly a Reich organization. I was also Reich Treasurer of the General-SS, and at the same time was representative in the Reich for the Waffen-SS; that was the same thing everywhere. However, the units themselves were absolutely separated from each other. One can not say that the Gestapo was part of the SS, although their members were, to a large extent, were members of the SS, but it was a Reich organization.
Q Is it your opinion that the Gestapo took no orders whatever from Himmler in his position as Reich Leader of the SS?
A In his position as Reichsfuehrer-SS, no. However, his capacity as Chief of the German Police, there is a difference there.
Q The Gestapo took orders from Himmler as Chief of the German Police, is that correct? and in his position as .........
A Of course, as Chief of the German Police, yes, that is correct, he was the superior.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, Mr. Witness, you are excused.
(witness excused)
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, before asking the Tribunal to bring in the witness, Dr. Schmidt Klebenow, I would like to put another question -I would like to discuss another question with the following view, sir. The Prosecution during the introduction of its evidence introduced a series of affidavits of Dr. Rudolf Brandt, who is on trial before the Military Tribunal One, and he is one of the twenty-three doctors indicted there, although he himself is not a doctor. However, upon my application the Tribunal decides that this witness Rudolf Brandt, who is not a witness of the defense or of the Prosecution, would be cross examined, upon having him before this Tribunal, I would appreciate if the Tribunal would possibly rule that Rudolf Brandt be brought before this Tribunal after the witnesses Dr. Schmidt-Klevenow, and Karl Wolff have been heard, will be called before this Tribunal so that the defense can carry out the cross examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Arrangements will have to be made with Tribunal One to bring this witness from that Court to this one at the proper time, which will not interfere with the proceedings in Tribunal No. One. I shall take it up with Judge Beale and determine a proper time when Brandt can be brought to this courtroom as a witness. If possible it will be after the witness Wolff has been heard.
DR. SEIDL: I would appreciate then if the witness Dr. SchmidtKlevenow will be brought into this Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring this witness into the courtroom, please.
DR. SCHMIDT-KLEVENOW, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Raise your right hand and repeat after me?
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. Have a seat.
(The witness repeated the oath)
(The witness then took his seat)
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, will you give us your full name?
A My name is Schmidt-Klevenow. My first name is Kurt.
Q Where and when were you born?
A I was born on 19 August 1906 in Cuxhavent.
Q Witness, I would like to draw your attention to the following facts: Please make a short pause between my questions and your answers so that the interpreters have time to make the respective translations.
A Yes.
Q Will you give us in brief terms your education?
A I went to Cuxhaven, and in Hamburg, where I went to school, and in 1926 I passed my high school examination. Then in Hamburg and in Innsbruuck I studied law, and political-economy and in 1930 I finished my Rependar examination, and in 1934 I passed my Assessors examination. Then I worked with the prosecution in Hamburg, and in 1935 I joined the Reichsfuehrung-SS in Berlin. In 1938 I was lawyer in Berlin, and on 1 April 1940, I was drafted into the Waffen-SS, and order to the WVHA.
Q How long have you known the defendant Oswald Pohl, and in what capacity did you make his acquaintance?
A I was in the WVHA a legan and welfare Officer. I knew Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl since 1 April 1940. I was in charge of all legal and disciplinary actions in the WVHA. In that capacity I was liaison man between the SS, and Police Courts and the Gerichtsherr. The Obergruppenfuehrer was Gerichtsherr of WVHA.
Q You say he was chief -----
THE PRESIDENT: I did not get the word you pronounced. Pohl was what?
THE INTERPRETER: Gerichtsherr, which is equivalent to Judge Advocate.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh.
Q. Witness, you say that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl as Chief of an SS Main Office, also carried out the functions of the Supreme Judicial Authority. I ask you now, witness, what were the tasks in that position and in what fields and on what circle of persons did his activity actually have an effect?
A. The Office of Supreme Judicial Authority, according to the regulations prevailing, was regulated by the War time penal Code. Just as Divisional Commanders were responsible for the members of their organizations up in the front lines, the same applied to the Homeland, where the Higher SS and Police Leaders were responsible within their own Wehrkreise, or Defense Areas, as Supreme Judicial Authority for the soldiers within their area and also for the staff.
As far as the Main Offices were concerned, it was regulated in the following manner: Every Main Office of the SS had its own Supreme Judicial Authority. He was in charge of the respective Main Office. The higher SS and Police Leaders, had their own courts, there was only one Court in Berlin for all Main Offices, SS and Police Court III in Berlin.
The legal procedure was the following: If a punishable act had been committed, either according to the military penal code or according to the general penal code, and if this act could be recognized as a punishable act, then the unit leader -- the commander in other words -- usually represented by his legal officer, had to write out a report on the case. That particular report went to the supreme judicial authority. The supreme judicial authority transferred that report to the court, and the court appointed a special investigator. The supreme judicial authority had the task of carrying out the decrees of this court-- decrees concerning the withdrawal of indictments, orders for arrest, and all sentences, and to carry them out.
As far as this confirmation was concerned, it was carried out in the following way:
The supreme judicial authority within or outside the boundaries of the German Reich, were only responsible for sentences referring to NCO's, enlisted men, and the staff. Sentences and decrees against SS Fuehrers had to be approved by the Reichsfuehrer SS, as well as all confirmations of sentences against foreigners and all other important tasks.
The local competency was taken care of in the following manner: Exactly as the Higher SS and Police Leader was competent for his own Wehrkreis, the Main Office Chiefs were competent only locally for their own jurisdiction. That is, a Main Office Chief in Berlin was the competent supreme judicial authority only for the members of his main office; locally, that is, in the Wehrkreis.
Q. Witness, how many persons, in your estimation, came under the jurisdiction of the supreme judicial authority of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A. I do not have the exact figures about it. They were the members of the WVHA in Berlin. Perhaps, at the peak, they amounted to at most 2,000 men possibly.
Q. It is a fact, is it not, that an order issued by Himmler on 3 March 1942 incorporated the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, as Amtsgruppe D, into the WVHA? I do not wish to speak to you about the results that this order had, and what the task of Oswald Pohl's supervision should restrict itself to. All I ask you is who was the supreme judicial authority and what was the tribunal that was competent for the investigation of punishable acts in a concentration camp? I take as an example the concentration camp of Buchenwald. For instance, if the suspicion arose t hat a member of the guard of the concentration camp at Buchenwald had committed a punishable act, who was competent to investigate the punishable act, which court was competent and who was the supreme judicial authority who had to confirm the sentences?
A. If a member who came under the punishable code, in other words who was under the war law, had committed a punishable act, then this punishable act was investigated by the Higher SS and Police Leader for Buchenwald.
That is Obergruppenfuehrer Erbprinz Waldeck, who was the Higher SS and Police Leader there, appointed a legal officer to carry out the investigation reports were then sent to the competent SS and Police court for Buchenwald in Weimar. The sentence, or the decrees which were issued by that Tribunal, were then signed by Erbprinz Waldeck in Weimar, who was the competent SS and Police Leader; that is, sentences, indictments, orders to withdraw indictments. If the SS Leader was convicted then the sentence of the tribunal was sent from Weimar directly to the Reichsfuehrer SS for his approval.
Q. From your explanations, it can be seen that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl as Chief of the WVHA had nothing to do with punishable acts in the concentration camps, at least as far as his function as supreme judicial authority was concerned.
A. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl had nothing to do with decrees which referred to concentration camps in a court matter. He did not even have the possibility to intervene. I remember one case where somebody intervened from Berlin upon orders of the Reichsfuehrer. The result was that the competent SS and Police Leader raised an objection with the Reichsfuehrer because he had disregarded his rights. That was the case of an examination which had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer in the concentration camp of Hertogenbosch in Holland. I recall that Obergruppenfuehrer Rauter had written a letter to the Reichsfuehrer and had complained about the fact that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl had intervened in his jurisdiction without having the right to do so. I personally am of the opinion that he was right in this letter, although there was an order of the Reichsfuehrer to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl on account of the seriousness of the case, or due to the urgency he himself intervened immediately. The proceedings should have been carried out in the Hague by the Police Court there. They should have transferred the documents to the competent court without taking into consideration the order.
Q. You have repeatedly mentioned the agency of the Higher SS and Police Leader. Give us in a few sentences a description of the position of the Higher SS and Police leaders and their tasks, particularly with reference to the fact of whether it is correct or not that these Higher SS and Police Leaders, independently of their rank within the SS -- whether they were major generals or generals of the command, -- were representatives of Himmler within a certain area; in other words, were the regional representatives of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD and, generally s peaking, representatives of the chief of German police and the Reichsfuehrer himself.
A. As I saw it -- and I wish to state that I was not employed by the Higher SS and Police Leaders and therefore I know these things only from the point of view of an observer just as I saw them-the Higher SS and Police Leaders were, so to say, the kings in the certain areas which they were assigned to. That is to say, in every Wehrkreise, for the interests of the police and the public security and also for the interest of the SS, a certain leadership was created, and particularly administratively; the administrative head had something to say in the Wehrkreis and was responsible for all questions arising within the area. They were the only persons competent.
Q. In that capacity then there were also supreme judicial authorities?
A. Yes, in the capacity the Higher SS and Police Leaders were the supreme judicial authorities, and generally speaking it was carried out in the following manner, that the Higher SS and Police Leaders were only the supreme judicial authority with the exception of a few lincks of the Main offices and if I do not take into consideration the conditions out in the front line. The important elements in the jurisdiction were the Higher SS and Police Leaders in their capacity as supreme judicial authorities of the Reich.
Q. And under their supervision came all the commandants and the guards of the concentration camps so far as investigations of punishable acts were concerned?
A. Yes. Well, it was in the following manner, that all the members who were within the area o f the Higher SS and Police Leader, in other words, who were employed there, were subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader judicially and disciplinary, and by this subordination the Higher SS and Police Leader had the possibility of forcing any of the members to comply with his orders and to take any measures against a man in his area. Of course, it was carried out in the following way, that besides this particular judicial and disciplinary subordination a factural subordination under a different commander was possible. For instance, the administrative leaders were subordinate to the Higher SS and Police Leader, or to the division commander, judicially and disciplinary, but structurally they could also be subordinate to other principals, the administrative officers, on the highest level to the WVHA, but that only referred to practical questions.
Q. Witness do you know now at the present moment a trial is being carried out at Dachau against members of the concentration camp of Buchenwald, and furthermore that one of the defendants is SS Obergruppenfuehrer Erbprinz Zu Waldeck-Pyrmont, and do you know furthermore that he is a defendant for the particular reason because as Higher SS and Police Leader he was at the sane time competent as supreme judicial authorities for the concentration camp of Buchenwald within his area?
A. Yes, I know that.
Q. Witness, you testified that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was supreme judicial authority for the members of the WVHA and that the circle of persons controlled by him amounted at the utmost to two thousand, in other words, to those officials and officers who were directly or immediately connected with the WVHA and working there in Berlin. I ask you now what were Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl's opinions and what lines did he follow in his capacity as such? What did you observe yourself as a legal officer of the WVHA in that respect?
A. I have to state here that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, I know of no second case in my career has performed the functions of a supreme judicial authority and much understanding. I believe that he is the only supreme judicial authority in the whole Reich who actually was so much interested in the jurisdiction in the SS Courts. He himself currently instructed that every sentence of importance be published so that the people would be scared and warned at the same time. He furthermore urged me to at least once a month make reports before the members of the WVHA I had to explain to them on the basis of sentences and other examples how hard someone could be punished who had committed a punishable act. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was particularly interested in corruption in every respect. He himself participated in court proceedings. I don't believe that any of the supreme judicial authorities ever participated in court proceedings but Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl did that. He also discussed the facts with the judges, and asked them for a conference, and in every respect showed much understanding which I never met again during my career.
On the other hand, in order to complete the picture, sometimes he stood too long in front of an accused, as long as he was not absolutely convinced of his innocence. But generally speaking he would leave the judges and the other men alone, and it never would occur that he intervened after actions had been baken by the court, nor that he would not let himself convince, when his opinion had been a different one before. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was very much liked with all the judges and other officials of the judicial district he contacted. Sometimes they were afraid to make statements in front of him due to his drastic manner of speech. However, they always liked to talk to him and they all liked him, not only myself- I was not the only one who liked him, but everybody else did.
Q. Are you in a position to give us a few examples which would illustrate the opinion by which Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was guided while carrying out his task as supreme judicial authority?
A. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl undoubtedly was a very, very severe supreme judicial authority. He tried by means of the tribunal to punish all cases of corruption as hard as he possible could. On the other, hand, however, he let small fry alone when they made certain mistakes, when they did not stand on guard when they were supposed to, and other military law violations which were of a rather small nature. I can recall one case where he was present during the proceedings in a courtroom, and he approached the examiner there and told him that his opinion was that the woman who was being indicted there should be left alone and be released immediately because after all her violation was so small that it was not worth while having a trial. Against his own people, however, if he was convinced of the guilt of the defendant, he proceeded in a very hard manner. He did intervene for anyone if he knew that generally speaking that man was a docent man, or when he had to assume or when he knew that was a unique violation. However, if he saw that that was man who was really corrupt or when he had actually committed a serious crime, then he was absolutely hard and he did not let anybody else talk him out of it, and he also told his opinion about those matters to the Reichsfurhrer himself quite often.
In that respect he always got through with his idea to the Reichsfuehrer.
Q. Is it not correct to say that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, once wrote an essay, which was published in the Gazette of the Main Office SS Court?
Q. Yes, in 1940 - 41- the first corruption scandal occurred of the SS. That was the case of Sauerzweig. Sauerzweig at the time was sentenced to death and shot. On the occasion of this first case Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl himself wrote a report, or rather let's say he made a statement, or he gave an explanation which was directed to all the administrative heads in the Waffen-SS. That particular statement was written in such an exemplary manner and exhorted the administrative officers to keep away from corruption. That this order, which had been sent to all the administrative officers, was found good enough by the Main Office SS to be published in the so-called Mittcilungsblaetter of Gazette of the SS, and this was road by a large circle of people outside the administration.
Q. Witness, you testified that the only persons competent for the prosecution of punishable acts in the concentration camps were the SS and Police Courts within which area they were, and that the supreme judicial authorities were responsible for the confirmation of the sentences. That is, the Higher SS and Police Leaders of the particular area. Do you know of any complaints which wore addressed to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl or to the WVHA which dealt with bad conditions in the concentration camps, and what did Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl do about it if by any chance he received knowledge of such conditions?
A. During my activity, I experienced it three times, that either anonymously or by higher agencies he received information on bad conditions in the concentration camps. The first case was the case of Hertogenbosch. Here, based on an anonymous letter, we were told that the leaders of the camp were drunk all the time.
Everybody was drinking and whoring in the camp and furthermore an inmate was beaten by one of the leaders. Generally speaking the camp was in such a situation that somebody had to intervene. Thereupon it was ordered by Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to immediately proceed to Hertogenbosch. A plane was put at my disposal by one of the collaborators. At Hertogenbosch I started an investigation, and I received the following litteral order from Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, "to clean up the angias stables of Hertogenbosch." I went there. I arrested all the leaders in the camp with the exception of the physician, and the administrative chief, and I immediately requested their transfer by teletype to Oranienburg.
All of them were transferred to Oranienburg; court proceedings were started against them and the camp commander was sentenced to seven years penal servitude and the man with the lowest rank was given four years penal servitude.
I know of a second case which occurred in Warsaw. It was reported to us that in inmate had allegedly been shot while trying to escape. That inmate, however, had allegedly been shot because the camp commandant wanted to cover up certain irregularities which occurred in the camp. One of my colleagues immediately drove to Warsaw and arrested both the camp commandant and the protective custody officer and had them transferred to Oranienburg under arrest. The proceedings had to be carried out by the Hauptamt-SS Court, that is the ZBV Court, special court as a main department of the Main Office SSCourt had been created in Munich in order to try corruption and other cases, as for instance, the killing of inmates in the concentration camps. And they were particularly dealt with by that particular department in Munich exclusively. The trial against the camp commandant of Warsaw had not been finished, according to my opinion, up to the capitulation, but they were both in jail until the capitulation.
And in the third case Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl received a piece of information that the camp commandant of Stutthof had ordered that an inmate who was being suspected of having made a wrong statement before the Tribunal was hanged at the wall, and had to hang there until he would have told the truth. The case also was immediately grasped by us, and the man responsible for that act was put before a tribunal and punished. I don't know of any other cases in which reports or complaints about punishable acts from concentration camps came directly from us.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What punishment was inflicted upon this individual who ordered the unjust hanging?
A. I don't know of that. All I know is that he was sentenced;
what his punishment was, I do not know.
Q. He was probably sentenced by that particular SS and Police Court within which area the camp was?
A. Yes, I believe it was the SS and Police Court in Danzig.
Q. And, due to the reasons you just explained, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl had nothing to do with the court proceedings, as such, and with the confirmation of the sentences?
A. No.
Q. That again was up to the Higher SS and Police Leader of that particular area?
A. Yes.
Q. Witness, from 1940 to 1945 you were Court Officer in the WVHA. You were active in the WVHA at a time when the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was not yet incorporated into the WVHA, organizationally? And also at the time, when the incorporation had taken place, that is, after the third of March 1942, or the first of March 1942, respectively; I ask you now, witness, did that incorporation -- I mean , the organizational incorporation of the inspectorate into the WVHA -- cause drastic changes in the way the SS Main Office was operating?
A. The later Amtsgruppe D of the WVHA was already, prior to that, a separate organic body which lost its independence neither in the SS-Main Office -- nor in the Operational Office, which the Amtsgruppe had belonged for a short time, not even the incorporation in the WVHA, nothing changed within the structure and the tasks of the Amtsgruppe D.
According to my opinion, particularly the absolutely personal subordination of the former inspectorate under the chief of the WVHA, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl is concerned, because Amtsgruppe D, kept its own personal administration as before; it had also its own judicial administration, its own courts, and they were still separated locally from Berlin.
Q. According to your observations, did the incorporation of the inspectorate of the concentration camps have any influence on the other office groups, I mean, on the Amtsgruppe A, C, Dand W?
A. I cannot judge that very well because I was not active in the office groups, but I was immediately and directly subordinated to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I do not know the connections of the in dividual Amtsgruppen to Amtsgruppen D, and W, but, generally speaking, when Amtsgruppe D was incorporated the labor assignment was dealt with. The WVHA received the concentration camps in order to possibly carry out the work together, and those agencies which dealt with questions of labor assignment contacted Amtsgruppe D through Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. I don't know for sure, however. All I know is that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl -
MR. ROBBINS: The witness has already said that he didn't know the answer to Dr. Seidl's question. I don't see any reason for him to continue to speculate on the influence that the incorporation had on Amtsgruppen A, B, C, and W. He said he was not associated with those Amtsgruppen, and he testified that he didn't know the answer.
DR. SEIDL: The witness explained that he did not know the details of the effects of that particular incorporation unto the other Amtsgruppen. However, tint doesn't mean, and that doesn't exclude, that the witness can give us factual statements and explanations about the fact whether anything material changed in the entire administration. And it will be up to this Tribunal to draw its own conclusions. I believe that the answer of the witness can be understood to that effect, is that correct?
WITNESS: I don't know the details. All I know is that prior to 1942, in the WVHA, and after the incorporation of the inspectorate into the WVHA, not much was changed.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. There is a good place to stop; right there. Now another question.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, you had your agency within the building of the WVHA in Berlin, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell us how often the inspector of the concentration camps, that is, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks, came to see Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in Berlin, and what the conferences were all about, and what they were limited to respectively?
A. I know that Gruppenfuehrer Gluecks came to Berlin once a week regularly -- at least I saw him frequently, I had my offices directly underneath the office of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and I usually knew who came to see Pohl because I was in his ante-room quite often. However, what they spoke about during those conferences, I do not know,
Q. You furthermore testified that the WVHA, at the time of its highest personnel strength, had approximately 2,000 officials and employees, and SS officers, etc. What can you tell us about the methods of work of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl with reference to whether he could speak about details, or if it was in the following manner, namely that he limited himself to the utmost necessary, due to the fact that the office was a big one.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't understand the question. Will Dr. Seidl repeat it, please?
THE PRESIDENT: I think I can state it more simply than Dr. Seidl possibly. He wants to know of the witness whether Pohl concerned himself with matters of general policy, or whether he gave his attention to details. Is that question suitable, Doctor?
DR. SEIDL: That, approximately, is the substance of the question, Your Honor.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Would you like to give us your answer, witness?
A. I can only answer that question generally speaking, and only as an outside observer.
I know that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was over-burdened with work, and I must assume that he did not bother with details that dealt with labor assignments, or, rather, with details in the offices. He could not possibly do so. He had his office chiefs for that, and all the other colleagues. And he had to trust them. In how far Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl himself intervened in the details of the individual offices, I can only tell you about myself. He never did intervene in my office by himself or on his own.
Q. That is sufficient. Do you know anything about an order of Himmler's, according to which, in the so called case A, the concentration camps and their entirety in every respect were to be placed under the orders of the Higner SS and Police Leaders, and not only as it was up to that particular time, with reference to the jurisdiction?
A. I recall having seen such an order in the ante-room of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl's office. I recall that incident today, and even more accurately, because that particular order was accompanied by a statement of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and to be exact the case was the following; that, if I am not wrong, Obergruppenfuehrer Schmauser approached Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, and somehow had given his opinion on this order. And Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl then said that in former times the Higher SS and Police Leaders wanted to have all their "fingers in those pies."
And they also did so and if today case A is concerned all of a sudden they don't want to have anything to do with it. That particular statement made me read that order which was in the ante-room and I can recall that it read approximately as follows: If Case A would come up, the concentration camps, everything that moves along with it, were to be brought under the immediate charge of the Higher SS and Police leaders. I understood it in the following way; namely, not only disciplinarily would they come under the jurisdiction of the Higher SS and Police leaders, but particularly also in all technical and other things connected with it. I cannot help feeling today that certain Higher SS and Police leaders act as if they had nothing to do with these things, if, for instance, a Higher SS and Police leader, who at that time was Reich Defense Commissioner in Germany, says that up to this present moment he does not know what Case A was.
Q. What was to be understood by Case A?
A. I never was told what the Case A was, but my common sense suggests that Case A is the case of an attack at any time. That is how I interpreted it.
Q. Did this order of the Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler have the result that in this particular Case A the Higher SS and Police leaders had to decide whether the concentration camp should be turned over to the advancing allied armies or whether the inmates of the concentration camps should be evacuated and transferred to camps located in areas further back?
A. Yes, that decision was to be transferred to the Higher SS and Police absolutely and directly. I can recall that during the first few months of 1945, that is when the Russians were threatening the camp of Auschwitz, Obergruppenfuehrer Schmauser called Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl in Berlin and asked him what he had to do. The whole matter was probably thought up by the Reichsfuehrer in the following manner; that in the Case A only the local police and SS leader was in a position to decide if the concentration camp was to be transferred, turned over, or what had to happen to the camp.
With these long distances of several hundreds of kilometers, particularly with the communications at the time, it was not possible to decide in Berlin. Nor do I recall of any such decisions which were taken in Berlin. I did hot have anything to do with it, but I presume I would have heard about it if that had occurred.
Q. Witness, you were legal officer in the WVHA. Did you ever hear of an action that was called Action Reinhardt, which plays a role in this case? Did you in any way have anything to do with that particular action? Did Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl at any time discuss that matter with you as his legal advisor and what can you tell us from your own knowledge about that question, particularly as far as the WVHA was connected with it?
A. I know nothing about the Reinhardt Action. Even the name itself, "Reinhardt Action", became known to me only after the capitulation. Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl never discussed these things with me and there was no reason to consult the legal officer in these matters. And I never noticed that this action played a certain part with Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q. You heard only after the capitulation that such a thing existed?
A. Yes.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, cross-examination?
MR. HIGGINS: If Your Honors please, the prosecution intends to cross-examine the witness and it would be appreciated, however, if we could take a recess at this time so we can get together certain documents which we intend to use in the cross-examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Let's settle on the order of cross-examination here. With the previous witness he was examined by his own counsel and then by counsel for other defendants, I believe. Is that right?
MR. HIGGINS: That's right.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to follow the same order in this instance?
MR. HIGGINS: It is perfectly all right with us.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait until all defense counsel have examined the witness and then the prosecution will cross-examine.
MR. HIGGINS: Very well.
THE PRESIDENT: Is any other counsel for the defense ready to examine this witness?
BY DR. BELZER (Counsel for the defendant Sommer):
Q. I have one question to the witness. Witness, as far as I understood you, if I understood you correctly, you stated before that with the incorporation of the concentration camp inspectorate as Amtsgruppe D into the WVHA nothing changed in the organization structure of the concentration camp inspectorate which is now Amtsgruppe D. Did I understand you correctly?
A. Generally speaking, that is correct. Of course, something did change insofar as Amtsgruppe D, if I am correct, as well as the WVHA, received new official designations, but I do not know if Amtsgruppe D had already been divided into three or four offices.
Q. I ask you for the following reason. In Amtsgruppe D there was after the subordination of the concentration camp inspectorate under the WVHA an office, Amt D-II, which dealt with the questions of labor assignment. I ask you now, witness, in the inspectorate of the concentration camps prior to this subordination to the WVHA, was there such an office?
A. I don't know that.
Q. You don't know that?
A. No, I don't.
BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Volk):
Q. Witness, do you know the defendant Volk?
A. Yes.
Q. How long Have you known the defendant Dr. Volk?
A. I have known Volk since he joined the WVHA and particularly entered the office Unter den Eichen. It is possible that it was in 1942. I don't recall the year. First he was working in the Geissbank, if I am not wrong, and I only knew him by his name, not personally.