A Yes, quite.
Q And it was the responsibility of the office chiefs to see that --Well, for instance, let's take an example. The DEST, the Deutsche Erd und Steinweke, was under the defendant Mummenthey. Mummenthey was chief of Amt W-I. You know, don't you, that it was his responsibility to see that the DEST industries were properly run?
AAs I said in a previous interrogation, it so happens that the whole DEST complex is relatively unknown to me. I had no intimate contacts there. If the Prosecution could take the Allach porcelain manufacture or the Bohemia, for example, I would be in a better position to give a responsible and precise answer.
Q All right, let's take the Bohemia. Which Amt was the Bohemia under?
A Bohemia was, as far as I know, under the office of the defendant Mummenthey.
Q And what supervision did Mummenthey exercise over the plant?
A From my own knowledge I can not give any information here, but he transmitted the orders and wishes of the Reichsfuehrer to manufacture certain plates and so forth, and if I have understood the question correctly, he could be described as being responsible for Bohemia.
Q And you told us about Allach, that it was Himmler's idea to make porcelain horses that would stand up on their hind legs. Mummenthey was in charge of this, wasn't he?
A Mummenthey had to see to it that the manufacturing and selling of all products of the porcelain manufacturing would be carried out according to the directives and wishes of the Reichsfuehrer.
Q Well, in your opinion, Mummenthey deserves a great deal of credit for supervising Allach and seeing that these beautiful porcelain pieces were properly manufactured?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes. In my eyes and from what I have heard up to this hour, he carried out this function in a proper and responsible and decent way, incorruptibly. I never heard anything to his disadvantage as far as his personality or his business management were concerned.
Q And he undoubtedly kept a pretty close check on the conditions in Allach and what was going on in the plant, don't you think?
A I said before he did not discuss that with me personally, but I do not doubt that he did his duty and that he will be in a position to prove that.
Q But you are certain that it was his responsibility to see that the plant at Allach was properly run?
A I think that the technical or commercial manager of Allach would probably have looked after all of the main details, but the way I would like to put it would be that Mummenthey was generally responsible.
Q That is put very well. He was generally responsible for all of the industries under Amt I, wasn't he?
AAs far as I know as a non-economist and a non-member of the WVHA, yes.
Q Let's look at W-III, for instance. There is no one in the dock, no defendant from W-III. This was food manufacturing, and the Deutsche Lebensmittel G.m.b.H, German Foodstuffs, Ltd., was under W-III. Do you know who was the chief of W-III?
A No, not by heart.
Q Do you remember the name Moeckel, M-O-E-C-K-E-L?
A Moeckel, yes I do indeed.
Q Do you know that he was chief of W-III?
A No, but I know that he had an office within the WVHA.
Q You would assume, wouldn't you, that Moeckel, as head of W-III -- I'll tell you for your information that he was head of W-III-You would assume that the chief of W-III also had general supervision over the Deutsche Lebensmittel, G.m.b.H., would you not?
A Yes.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Are you familiar with the firm DWB, Deutsche Wirtschaftsbetriebe, G.m.b.H?
A No.
Q You have not heard of that name before, the German Economic Enterprises?
A No, I do not know this abbreviation or the field of task that we are concerned with here.
Q Never mind the abbreviation. The full name is Deutsche Wirtschaftsbetriebe, G.m.b.H. You don't know that name?
A No, I am afraid that it does not mean anything to me. Perhaps the Prosecution could tell me what they produced there.
Q That was the holding company, the giant holding company which controlled all of the concerns in the WVHA. Are you familiar with the firm OSTI Industry -- G.m.b.H. Eastern Industries, Ltd.?
A I came across that term here in Nurnberg for the first time.
Q And you don't know who exercised supervision over this industry? It was an industry under Amtsgruppe W and under the Staff W.
A I can not recall this at all.
Q Do you know the defendant Baier? His name is Hans Baier. He was an Oberfuehrer in the SS.
A The name seems to ring a bell, but I must admit that if I were to attempt to point him out here, I would be unable to do so. I don't think that I ever had any direct official contacts with him.
Q Do you know who in the WVHA handled the administration of supply for the SS? Do you know that was Amtsgruppe B?
A May I ask the Prosecution what you mean by "supplies"?
Q Well, I am talking about billets and food supplies and clothing, transportation.
A I know that Office Group B was under Brigadefuehrer Loerner at the time. I also know that the defendant Scheide was connected with transportation matters.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You told us yesterday that you knew that the WVHA generally had to supply food and other supplies for the concentration camps. Do you know that this was Amtsgruppe B's function?
A I believe that I did not use the term "to supply". What I wanted to express was that the WVHA and agencies within the WVHA-There was Office Group B under Loerner which had the authority to issue general orders, to cover the supplies in the provincial agencies. I am thinking of clothes, particularly, to transfer them, but if the Prosecution should assume-- I want to say that I don't believe that Loerner was the source from which the food supplies would come. As far as I can judge this from the outside, these allocations came from the supply agencies of the Reich Food Estate, and that at a lower level the concentration camps themselves regulated it locally.
Q. Well, you told us yesterday that WVHA you knew was in charge of the administration of the concentration camps? You know that is true, don't you?
A. (No answer)
Q. Let me ask you this. You know that Amtsgruppe-D was in charge of administering concentration camps?
A. Yes.
Q. And you know that "D" was part of the WVHA and was subordinate to Pohl?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Now you told us that Pohl was a very busy man, and it was impossible that Pohl himself could have taken care of all the supplies for the concentration camps. He must have had some one of his deputies in charge of the checking to see that the inmates in the concentration camps received food and do thing, or do you think he just ignored that problem completely. It was his responsibility. What do you think he did about it?
A. Office Group-D just mentioned by the Prosecution is named Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. This designation shows that he had the duty to inspect the camps from the point of view of being the proper and regular supplies; therefore, from my own knowledge I would, so far as Chief of Office Group-D is concerned, wish to say as to the nominating inspector of the concentration camps, that I would have regarded him to be the mainly responsible person.
Q. You see on the chart up there of Amt-B-I, that Tschentscher was in charge of food supplies, and Amt-B-II is in charge of clothing.
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you know that when the officials in Amtsgruppe D needed food for the concentration camps, they went to these offices?
A. No, I have no knowledge of that, that is a highly internal administration task. I said before that I believe that all material and supplies for uniforms, and such things, might have come from the top level administrative office of the Inspectorate of concentration camps.
The supplies to Office Group-B, I don't think this applied to food supplies, but I would ask you to bear in mind I never had any reason to inform myself of all the organizational details and competencies of another Hauptstamt (Main Office)-
Q. Well, by taking into consideration the Twelve main offices, you will ten exclude the possibility that it was Georg Loerner's task to obtain food and clothing for the concentration camps?
A. I am unable to say one-hundred percent yes or no, from my own knowledge I think it is highly improbably that Loerner had anything to do with the food supply in a responsible manner.
DR. KRAUSS: Dr. Krauss for the defendant Tschentscher. Mr. President, the witness has said on several occasions that he has no detailed knowledge of the task under the various groups, and main offices particularly. I would, therefore, request the Tribunal from the point of view of further questions concerning the competency of the office of Tschentscher about which the witness has already said he has no precise knowledge, I would ask that those questions should not be permitted.
MR. ROBBINS: I am not going to ask any more questions about Tschentscher.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will bear in mind the witnesses testimony that he was not familiar with the details, and that some of his answers, many of them in fact, are not based upon personal knowledge but upon opposition.
MR. ROBBINS:
Q. What the President just said about your testimony, applies also to what you said this morning in answering the questions put to you by the defense counsel about Horst Klein, and other of the defendants doesn't it, that you were just supposing when you told us about these details of their tasks?
A. The answers which I made in response to questions put by the defense counsel were concerned essentially with definite concrete matters of which it so happened I had some knowledge about from my own official contact. I can see no reason to modify my testimony in response to questions put by defense counsel.
Q. General, do you know who Kammler was?
A. Yes, Kammler was the Chief of the entire Construction Department of the SS.
Q. And that came under Amt Group-C of which he was chief, did it not?
A. Yes, quite, so far as I know.
Q. Did you ever hear of the defendant Eirenschmalz?
A. Yes, I knew Eirenschmalz as an old SS man from the time -- from the Munich-SS; i.e. , in 1931, '32 and '33.
Q. Do you recall that he was Chief of Amt-C-6 under Kammler?
A. All I know is that he dealt with construction tasks. Details are difficult for me to recall , unless my memory might be refreshed by either the Prosecution or the Defense.
Q. He was also Himmler's Deputy for a time, was he not?
A. I don't know that in detail. I might testify again that I next saw him in the beginning of 1943.
Q. You know, do you not, that Kammler was completely subordinated to the defendant Pohl?
A. Kammler as Chief of Office Group, of course, was under Pohl.
Q. Well, there has been a lot of testimony here about the duties of Gluecks and Eicke as inspectors of the concentration camps, but I don't think any one has given us a completely clear picture as to what those men did as Inspectors of concentration camps prior to 1942, and, I should think that you would be in an excellent position to do so. Would you tell us about the tasks of these men?
A. The question of the Prosecution is, do I know other questions put to me by the defense where it would be a doctor's thesis, almost, to answer. The things go back a goad many years, and I should be glad to tell you what I know as briefly as possible.
Q. Well, let me tell you, that this is an extremely important subject, and just take your time in doing so.
A. I remember that in 1933 the then Oberfuehrer Eicke was asked by the Reichsfuehrer-SS to establish for Dachau concentration camp a sort of supervision for the possibility of guarding the inmates interned there. From those guard units originated the so-called concentration camp guard units, or Deathhead Units. As things developed, and as the functions of the Reichsfuehrer-SS grew and extended throughout Germany a number of other concentration camps were established and others from the responsibility and care of the SA. I am thinking of Oranienburg, were handed over to the responsibility of the SS. The official here who established the first concentration camp which the SS ever took over was Eicke. Eicke was given the authority for conducting and the responsibility for these newly created camps, and at that time the title of Inspectorate of concentration camps, and the inspector of concentration camps was given to him. Eicke at the outbreak of the war went to the Deathhead Units of the SS at Danzig when he returned from the Polish campaign.
From these concentration camp guards he found that the SS Death Head Division, SS Mechanized Division, "became part of the SS Special Task Groups and was thereby taken into the Waffen SS, and in France it was in combat for the first time.
These new tasks which Gruppenfuehrer Eicke took over after the war had broken out, it became necessary that his old position be given to somebody else, and it was Gluecks who became his successor. Thus he took over the task and the full responsibility, I am inclined to say even the main responsibility, for this very difficult and sad chapter.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the first concentration camp. Who constructed the first camp, whose idea was it?
A. A difference must be made here in what part of the country you are talking about. In northern Germany there were concentration camps which as far as I know were established by Goering, but in southern Germany--
Q. Well, the first concentration camp in Germany - would you say that Goering was the man who--
A. It was, as far as I know, by Goering.
Q. What year was it?
A. It must have been the beginning of 1933, immediately after the advent of power.
Q. Can you give us the philology of concentration camp? Why was it called a concentration camp? Was it the theory that you were concentrating in one place the opponents of the regime?
A. The explanation, that is how I understood it, and that is how I understand it, is that it was borrowed from the British, because the Germans did not invent the system of concentration camps.
Q. You mean to tell us that Great Britain had concentration camps prior to Goering's concentration camps?
A. Yes, in the Boer War.
Q. And were they called that, was that the term that was used?
A. From my own knowledge at the time, I was halfway informed, I think so.
Q. And did you adopt any other British custom in the beginning and carrying on of this war?
A. We always endeavored in the SS to borrow the term "gentleman" from the British and to carry it out, to train people to become gentlemen, but unhappily we were not nearly as successful as we would have been.
Q. Don't you think if you had followed out the British manner of living you might not have been in the mess that you are in now?
A. Yes, I believe so.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: Yes.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, before I get completely away from Amtsgruppe C, Amtsgruppe C was in charge of all construction of the SS, wasn't it?
A. Might I ask that the question be repeated?
(The question was repeated by the interpreter to the witness.)
I am unable to say this so generally. For instance, recalling the construction of the Wewelsburg, which was a special task, there Kammler according to my knowledge had no connection with it at all. One has to be extremely cautious here before one generalizes. I would put it this way, that as far as I know all construction matters which were on the SS program and were not an exceptional enterprise were under the supervision and leadership and responsibility of Kammler.
Q. Do you know of any large construction projects that were carried out that were not under Amtsgruppe C, disregarding the small example such as Wewelsburg?
A. Not at this present moment, I cannot recall any other case.
Q. I don't know of any others. I am just asking for my own information.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you have given us in considerable detail the jobs of Eicke and Gluecks. It is true, isn't it, that Eicke, as inspector of the concentration camps, had extensive control over the day-to-day living of the concentration camp inmates, regulations concerning the hours of working, the amount of sleep that the inmates would get, the amount of clothes, the amount of food, how long they would work, what kind of work they would do, etc.
That was Eicke's responsibility, wasn't it?
A. Here again I should emphasize that as far as I know no order existed which regulated these tasks in detail, in the detailed way which the prosecution has just described, but quite generally I would like to agree with the prosecution that here he was the mainly responsible person for these things, and that is where he had to do his duty.
Q. You say there weren't any hard, fast, binding regulations. It was left up to Eicke's discretion from case to case, wasn't it? He supervised the camps generally?
A. No, what I wanted to say was that from my memory, and as an improvisation, I am unable to tell the prosecution, or anyway, I don't believe that there was a very precise regulation available at that time. Today after the event, remembering the tons of paper which went through my office in the course of years, it is impossible for me to recall these small organizational details which today are of such marked importance.
Q. I think you have described it correctly. The fact is that Eicke used his own judgment, his own discretion in handling the inspectorate. He was not bound by any hard, fast regulations?
A. He was a king in his own empire, and he received his orders from Reichsfuehrer-SS direct. He was most jealously guarding his empire from any interference by military administration. I recall very well that for that reason difficulties arose.
Q. And then after those difficulties arose Eicke was sent to the front, wasn't he, and Gluecks took over his position?
A. Well, later on, through a clearer regulation of conditions and the establishment of an economic system which became effective, it finally culminated in the appointment of Office Group D as part of the WVHA.
Q. And when that happened were any of the powers that we have talked about which Gluecks exercised taken away from him? He continued to supervise all the various aspects of day-to-day living of inmates, didn't he?
A. Gluecks was the perfect heir of his predecessor Eicke.
Q. And Gluecks as Chief of Amtsgruppe D was subordinate in all respects to Pohl as chief of the WVHA, was he not?
A. Not in every respect.
Q. Now, will you tell us which of those details of day-to-day living of the inmates which we have discussed, which of those details were not under the competence of Pohl?
A. Might I perhaps put it the other way around, because that is simpler.
Q. I am sorry. If it is possible, would you mind answering the question as I put it, and then we will go on to the other phase later?
A. In the manner in which the prosecution have put their question, it is impossible to answer by yes or no, but if anything, rather with no.
Q. No, no, you must have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask you for yes or no. I asked you to tell me which of the details of day-to-day living of the concentration camp inmates, I listed quite a few of them, which were under Gluecks before the inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA, which of those details was not transferred to Pohl as chief of the WVHA.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the defendant Pohl): Mr. President, the Prosecution have put a question to the witness and the witness was about to answer the question in a way in accordance with his conscience without violating his obligation to tell the truth. I am of the opinion that the Prosecution should give the witness the opportunity to give the answer, and that he should not be forced to give an answer which, to the best of his belief and knowledge, he is unable to give.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness indicated that he preferred to answer a question put in a different form. Prosecution has the right to ask him to answer the particular question put to him -- if he can.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I don't want you to answer anything against your conscience; I just want you to tell us, if you can, which of the details ... I think you understand my question.
A. To my knowledge Pohl, as far as the day-to-day needs of inmates were concerned, had no immediate contact, but, as I said in earlier interrogations, that the top administrative level of concentration camps was with the inspectorate in accordance with its name, and that Pohl or the Main Office was figured purely as the ministerial agency above the inspectorate in order to make regulations of the general type. Is the Prosecution satisfied with my answer now?
Q. I think that is a fairly accurate description. Pohl himself didn't actually go to the camps very often to inspect them, to inspect the working conditions, but his agents were there to administer to the day-by-day needs of the inmates?
A. Yes, and as any other high officer, he must have been in a position to rely on his office chiefs who, some of them, had the rank of a major general; would do their duty and that he need not supervise them like a corporal.
Q. And he had to delegate a good deal of responsibility?
A. Yes.
Q. But the general responsibility for all of these details was still his, was it not? That is why they made him an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SS; that is why they made him chief of one of the Main Offices of the SS?
A. They did not make him chief because of that. He had the rank and position before then even. I said said yesterday -
Q. Excuse me. I may be mistaken but I think he obtained the rank of Obergruppenfuehrer about the same time that he was made chief of the WVHA, which was in 1942.
A. As far as I know, and I recall he became Main Office chief -although I think it was called something else, construction and building- he became that in 1939. He was a Main Office chief for three years, when he had the misfortune --- on paper and from an organizational point of view -- to receive this unhappy inspectorate of concentration camps against which he could do nothing.
Q. Well, whichever date it was, whenever he became chief of the administration office, he was made Obergruppenfuehrer.
A. As I remember it, Pohl on the 20th April '42 became ---Yes, that is correct. With this new collective title continued his old office and he merely had received the inspectorate as a sort of addition.
Q. And when he received the inspectorate as an addition he was made responsible for the carrying out of the tasks of the inspectorate, was he not?
A. It is my conviction that he was not responsible. Responsible there was the inspector -- as the name shows. You should perhaps take into consideration that the really essential orders which finally led to these enormous atrocities came from the RSHA which had the authority to issue orders to the inspectorate, and also from Reichsfuehrer SS, direct.
Q. Well, how, let us just forget about the RSHA for a moment, and we will discuss that later. For the time being, I am just asking you about the inspectorate, Amstsgruppe D; and you might be interested in this fact:
of all the correspondence that we have found from Amtsgruppe D, after 1942, February or March---March, when the inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA, we have not found a single letter which was signed by Gluecks as inspector of concentration camps. He always singed his letters as chief of Amtsgruppe D. Now, do you know of any order which limited Pohl's power or Pohl's responsibility over Amstsgruppe D, which was an office group of the WVHA of which he was chief. You don't know of any such order?
A. No such order. I can't recall any such order now.
Q. This morning we talked at great length about the Fuehrer Principle. Now, doesn't that principle apply here as well. Here was a chief, an office chief which is a high position in the SS; Chief of a Main Office. And under him was placed an Amtsgruppe, which was a subdivision of his main organization. Now, it may be that Gluecks sometime, often, talked directly to Himmler. But isn't it also true that Pohl was responsible for Gluecks' action , under the Fuehrer Principle?
It was Pohl's responsibility that was given to him by Himmler, and he delegated that responsibility on to Gluecks, and Gluecks was responsible to Pohl, and Pohl was responsible to Himmler.
Excuse me, I am not talking about the atrocities committed by the RSHA. I am talking about the day-to-day operation of the concentration of the concentration camps.
A. I regret that I must repeat once more that in my view as it applied either in 1942 or in 1945, the time of surrender, the defendant Pohl should not be charged with that combination. The organization was, as I have described it before repeatedly. And to the best of my belief and conviction I am unable to generalize about Pohl and his colleagues beyond their functions as I described them before.
Q. Well, I come back to the question I put a few moments ago. If there was a division of responsibility here, as you seem to think that there was, you must know what the division of responsibility was, and I would like for you to tell us what part of the day-to-day living, the routine work of the concentration camps, the administration of the concentration camps, was not under Pohl's competency.
It is just inconceivable to me that any part of it wouldn't be under Pohl's competency.
A. All that existed independently under the inspectorate, the toplevel authority for concentration camps.
Q. Are you telling us that Pohl had no jurisdiction over Gluecks?
A. Pohl had the authority to give orders to Gluecks; he had to make the general orders and directives but -
Q. Pohl established the general policy, and Gluecks carried out the details of the policy. Is that what you want to tell us?
A. I believe one might put it that way, although not being an expert I do not know what other logical conclusions the Prosecution is about to draw from this statement.
Q. I am not asking you now to draw any conclusions whatever about the legal culpability of Pohl. I am just talking about how the organization was run from the standpoint of the SS; how Himmler looked at it.
You were one of the men who was closest to Himmler, and I am asking you how the SS looked at it.
A Gluecks was responsible to Himmler.
Q You know, don't you -- I think you told us yourself -- that Gluecks reported every Friday to Pohl?
A No, I don't know that.
Q Well it is true. Pohl has told us that Gluecks had a long conversation and reported to him on Friday; sometimes it was in Berlin; sometime sit was in Oranienburg. I am asking you if you can --- I hope this will be the last time -- if you can give us any idea as to what functions in the concentration camps -- disregarding the part that the RSHA had to do with it -- what functions of the concentration camp and Amtsgruppe D were not within the competence of Pohl?
DR. SEIDL (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT POHL): Mr. President, the prosecution said just now that Pohl had admitted himself Gluecks had reported to him every Friday either in Berlin or Oranienburg. Remembering that the witness is unable to see the transcript I should point out that the Defendant Pohl did not make that same statement. All he said was that Gluecks came to report once a week to Berlin, to the WVHA. The Defendant Pohl did not say that he himself went to Oranienburg for that purpose. I think that is an important distinction to be made as the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was in Oranienburg.
THE PRESIDENT: Whatever statement Pohl made has nothing to do with the question and answer. It doesn't indicate the answer to the question and might better have been left out. It is confusing to the witness. Try it again, Mr. Robbins and this is the last time.
Q You have the question in mind, Witness? What phase of the Inspectorate, I would like for you to give me the particulars -- what phase of Amtsgruppe D was not within Pohl's jurisdiction?
A (No response.)
Q Do you stick to the statement you just made that the general policy was laid down by Pohl and carried out in detail by Gluecks?
A Yes.
A Yes.
Q Well, now, let me ask you this? Do you know whether Pohl could give orders to the concentration camp commanders, whether he could give instructions directly to them?
AAs far as I am able to judge this, no.
Q Do you know whether the RSHA had a representative in the concentration camps?
AAs far as I know, yes.
Q And that was the so called Political Section of the RSHA, was it not?
A Yes.
Q And they carried out the interrogations of the inmates and the execution of prisoners for political purposes, that is, executions for political purposes?
A That I don't know. All I know is that the RSHA was sort of a liaison office which conducted the interrogations from the point of view of security police. Applications for release would be worked on by them and things like that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, you just answered the question and said that the Defendant Pohl would not have authority to give orders and instructions to the concentration camp commanders. Why wouldn't he, if he was chief of the organization which had the administration of the functions of the concentration camps?
WITNESS: If Pohl, as far as I know, if Pohl wanted to have something carried out, he would issue a general directive to Gluecks, but not to the camp commanders themselves.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He could have issued the directives to the camp commanders, if he wanted to, he wouldn't have to go through Gluecks, would he?
WITNESS: That would have been a highly exceptional case, which I can hardly imagine; that would have meant to by-pass the inspector and interfering with the man's rights.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't Pohl have the authority to hire and dismiss, and didn't he hire and dismiss concentration camp commanders?
WITNESS: I am asked whether Pohl had that authority. I think on any questions pertaining to personnel, he was in a position to express wishes or make suggestions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, his wish amounted to an order, didn't it?
WITNESS: What is that?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: His wishes amounted to an order. His expression of opinion to an order to a subordinate, didn't it.
WITNESS: I am sorry that all I can say and repeat here: Never did I have the time nor the wish to worry about these legal aspects of the responsibility either in peace or war time. I am unable to say anything from my knowledge; all I can do is to give this Tribunal my honest conviction to the best of my knowledge and belief and that is the one which I expressed before.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, in regard to the authority that Pohl had over Gluecks, from what you have testified to about that matter, isn't this what you mean; That Pohl was the Chief of the WVHA; that Gluecks was subordinated to him as the inspector of the concentration camps and that Gluecks took orders from Pohl as to the general administration of the camps, but at the same time Himmler could give orders direct to Gluecks. Is that what you mean to say?
WITNESS: Yes, I believe that is what I said.
THE PRESIDENT: That summarizes in about twenty words what we have been trying to get on to the record for over an hour. Meanwhile the interpreters are suffocating in their booths and we will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR ROBBINS: I have only a very few additional questions, and I think we can finish up very shortly.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. I would like to inquire just for a moment into the proposition that you asserted yesterday that only a very small number of people knew about the extermination of Jews and Poles. I would like to direct your attention to the people who were absolutely necessary for the carrying out of this task. It was necessary to have the construction of gas chambers to do this job, was it not? It was necessary to make arrangements for the construction of the gas chambers, and it was necessary to carry out that construction?
A. Certainly.
Q. And undoubtedly the people who built the gas chambers knew what they were going to be used for?
A. I hardly think so.
Q. What else could you use gas chambers for, and the gas chambers extended for blocks?
A. Yes. I don't know whether this explanation was given to the people who constructed these gas chambers, and if they were told just what was being built there and for what purpose the installations were to be used.
Q. Whether or not they were told about the purpose of building it was plain to them, wasn't it, that they were constructing these hege gas chambers so that people--human beings would be gassed there?
A. I myself have never seen such death chambers, and never even have seen a picture of it, so I have no idea whatsoever of it. My entire knowledge consist of hearsay since March, 1945, and, again since it has been determined in the big trial that only one-hundred and fifty persons are alleged to have had knowledge of these things, and participated in them. I myself in my seclusion and imprisonment in solitary confinement lacked any other source of obtaining information for the subject.