That was Eicke's responsibility, wasn't it?
A. Here again I should emphasize that as far as I know no order existed which regulated these tasks in detail, in the detailed way which the prosecution has just described, but quite generally I would like to agree with the prosecution that here he was the mainly responsible person for these things, and that is where he had to do his duty.
Q. You say there weren't any hard, fast, binding regulations. It was left up to Eicke's discretion from case to case, wasn't it? He supervised the camps generally?
A. No, what I wanted to say was that from my memory, and as an improvisation, I am unable to tell the prosecution, or anyway, I don't believe that there was a very precise regulation available at that time. Today after the event, remembering the tons of paper which went through my office in the course of years, it is impossible for me to recall these small organizational details which today are of such marked importance.
Q. I think you have described it correctly. The fact is that Eicke used his own judgment, his own discretion in handling the inspectorate. He was not bound by any hard, fast regulations?
A. He was a king in his own empire, and he received his orders from Reichsfuehrer-SS direct. He was most jealously guarding his empire from any interference by military administration. I recall very well that for that reason difficulties arose.
Q. And then after those difficulties arose Eicke was sent to the front, wasn't he, and Gluecks took over his position?
A. Well, later on, through a clearer regulation of conditions and the establishment of an economic system which became effective, it finally culminated in the appointment of Office Group D as part of the WVHA.
Q. And when that happened were any of the powers that we have talked about which Gluecks exercised taken away from him? He continued to supervise all the various aspects of day-to-day living of inmates, didn't he?
A. Gluecks was the perfect heir of his predecessor Eicke.
Q. And Gluecks as Chief of Amtsgruppe D was subordinate in all respects to Pohl as chief of the WVHA, was he not?
A. Not in every respect.
Q. Now, will you tell us which of those details of day-to-day living of the inmates which we have discussed, which of those details were not under the competence of Pohl?
A. Might I perhaps put it the other way around, because that is simpler.
Q. I am sorry. If it is possible, would you mind answering the question as I put it, and then we will go on to the other phase later?
A. In the manner in which the prosecution have put their question, it is impossible to answer by yes or no, but if anything, rather with no.
Q. No, no, you must have misunderstood my question. I didn't ask you for yes or no. I asked you to tell me which of the details of day-to-day living of the concentration camp inmates, I listed quite a few of them, which were under Gluecks before the inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA, which of those details was not transferred to Pohl as chief of the WVHA.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for the defendant Pohl): Mr. President, the Prosecution have put a question to the witness and the witness was about to answer the question in a way in accordance with his conscience without violating his obligation to tell the truth. I am of the opinion that the Prosecution should give the witness the opportunity to give the answer, and that he should not be forced to give an answer which, to the best of his belief and knowledge, he is unable to give.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness indicated that he preferred to answer a question put in a different form. Prosecution has the right to ask him to answer the particular question put to him -- if he can.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, I don't want you to answer anything against your conscience; I just want you to tell us, if you can, which of the details ... I think you understand my question.
A. To my knowledge Pohl, as far as the day-to-day needs of inmates were concerned, had no immediate contact, but, as I said in earlier interrogations, that the top administrative level of concentration camps was with the inspectorate in accordance with its name, and that Pohl or the Main Office was figured purely as the ministerial agency above the inspectorate in order to make regulations of the general type. Is the Prosecution satisfied with my answer now?
Q. I think that is a fairly accurate description. Pohl himself didn't actually go to the camps very often to inspect them, to inspect the working conditions, but his agents were there to administer to the day-by-day needs of the inmates?
A. Yes, and as any other high officer, he must have been in a position to rely on his office chiefs who, some of them, had the rank of a major general; would do their duty and that he need not supervise them like a corporal.
Q. And he had to delegate a good deal of responsibility?
A. Yes.
Q. But the general responsibility for all of these details was still his, was it not? That is why they made him an Obergruppenfuehrer in the SS; that is why they made him chief of one of the Main Offices of the SS?
A. They did not make him chief because of that. He had the rank and position before then even. I said said yesterday -
Q. Excuse me. I may be mistaken but I think he obtained the rank of Obergruppenfuehrer about the same time that he was made chief of the WVHA, which was in 1942.
A. As far as I know, and I recall he became Main Office chief -although I think it was called something else, construction and building- he became that in 1939. He was a Main Office chief for three years, when he had the misfortune --- on paper and from an organizational point of view -- to receive this unhappy inspectorate of concentration camps against which he could do nothing.
Q. Well, whichever date it was, whenever he became chief of the administration office, he was made Obergruppenfuehrer.
A. As I remember it, Pohl on the 20th April '42 became ---Yes, that is correct. With this new collective title continued his old office and he merely had received the inspectorate as a sort of addition.
Q. And when he received the inspectorate as an addition he was made responsible for the carrying out of the tasks of the inspectorate, was he not?
A. It is my conviction that he was not responsible. Responsible there was the inspector -- as the name shows. You should perhaps take into consideration that the really essential orders which finally led to these enormous atrocities came from the RSHA which had the authority to issue orders to the inspectorate, and also from Reichsfuehrer SS, direct.
Q. Well, how, let us just forget about the RSHA for a moment, and we will discuss that later. For the time being, I am just asking you about the inspectorate, Amstsgruppe D; and you might be interested in this fact:
of all the correspondence that we have found from Amtsgruppe D, after 1942, February or March---March, when the inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA, we have not found a single letter which was signed by Gluecks as inspector of concentration camps. He always singed his letters as chief of Amtsgruppe D. Now, do you know of any order which limited Pohl's power or Pohl's responsibility over Amstsgruppe D, which was an office group of the WVHA of which he was chief. You don't know of any such order?
A. No such order. I can't recall any such order now.
Q. This morning we talked at great length about the Fuehrer Principle. Now, doesn't that principle apply here as well. Here was a chief, an office chief which is a high position in the SS; Chief of a Main Office. And under him was placed an Amtsgruppe, which was a subdivision of his main organization. Now, it may be that Gluecks sometime, often, talked directly to Himmler. But isn't it also true that Pohl was responsible for Gluecks' action , under the Fuehrer Principle?
It was Pohl's responsibility that was given to him by Himmler, and he delegated that responsibility on to Gluecks, and Gluecks was responsible to Pohl, and Pohl was responsible to Himmler.
Excuse me, I am not talking about the atrocities committed by the RSHA. I am talking about the day-to-day operation of the concentration of the concentration camps.
A. I regret that I must repeat once more that in my view as it applied either in 1942 or in 1945, the time of surrender, the defendant Pohl should not be charged with that combination. The organization was, as I have described it before repeatedly. And to the best of my belief and conviction I am unable to generalize about Pohl and his colleagues beyond their functions as I described them before.
Q. Well, I come back to the question I put a few moments ago. If there was a division of responsibility here, as you seem to think that there was, you must know what the division of responsibility was, and I would like for you to tell us what part of the day-to-day living, the routine work of the concentration camps, the administration of the concentration camps, was not under Pohl's competency.
It is just inconceivable to me that any part of it wouldn't be under Pohl's competency.
A. All that existed independently under the inspectorate, the toplevel authority for concentration camps.
Q. Are you telling us that Pohl had no jurisdiction over Gluecks?
A. Pohl had the authority to give orders to Gluecks; he had to make the general orders and directives but -
Q. Pohl established the general policy, and Gluecks carried out the details of the policy. Is that what you want to tell us?
A. I believe one might put it that way, although not being an expert I do not know what other logical conclusions the Prosecution is about to draw from this statement.
Q. I am not asking you now to draw any conclusions whatever about the legal culpability of Pohl. I am just talking about how the organization was run from the standpoint of the SS; how Himmler looked at it.
You were one of the men who was closest to Himmler, and I am asking you how the SS looked at it.
A Gluecks was responsible to Himmler.
Q You know, don't you -- I think you told us yourself -- that Gluecks reported every Friday to Pohl?
A No, I don't know that.
Q Well it is true. Pohl has told us that Gluecks had a long conversation and reported to him on Friday; sometimes it was in Berlin; sometime sit was in Oranienburg. I am asking you if you can --- I hope this will be the last time -- if you can give us any idea as to what functions in the concentration camps -- disregarding the part that the RSHA had to do with it -- what functions of the concentration camp and Amtsgruppe D were not within the competence of Pohl?
DR. SEIDL (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT POHL): Mr. President, the prosecution said just now that Pohl had admitted himself Gluecks had reported to him every Friday either in Berlin or Oranienburg. Remembering that the witness is unable to see the transcript I should point out that the Defendant Pohl did not make that same statement. All he said was that Gluecks came to report once a week to Berlin, to the WVHA. The Defendant Pohl did not say that he himself went to Oranienburg for that purpose. I think that is an important distinction to be made as the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps was in Oranienburg.
THE PRESIDENT: Whatever statement Pohl made has nothing to do with the question and answer. It doesn't indicate the answer to the question and might better have been left out. It is confusing to the witness. Try it again, Mr. Robbins and this is the last time.
Q You have the question in mind, Witness? What phase of the Inspectorate, I would like for you to give me the particulars -- what phase of Amtsgruppe D was not within Pohl's jurisdiction?
A (No response.)
Q Do you stick to the statement you just made that the general policy was laid down by Pohl and carried out in detail by Gluecks?
A Yes.
A Yes.
Q Well, now, let me ask you this? Do you know whether Pohl could give orders to the concentration camp commanders, whether he could give instructions directly to them?
AAs far as I am able to judge this, no.
Q Do you know whether the RSHA had a representative in the concentration camps?
AAs far as I know, yes.
Q And that was the so called Political Section of the RSHA, was it not?
A Yes.
Q And they carried out the interrogations of the inmates and the execution of prisoners for political purposes, that is, executions for political purposes?
A That I don't know. All I know is that the RSHA was sort of a liaison office which conducted the interrogations from the point of view of security police. Applications for release would be worked on by them and things like that.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Witness, you just answered the question and said that the Defendant Pohl would not have authority to give orders and instructions to the concentration camp commanders. Why wouldn't he, if he was chief of the organization which had the administration of the functions of the concentration camps?
WITNESS: If Pohl, as far as I know, if Pohl wanted to have something carried out, he would issue a general directive to Gluecks, but not to the camp commanders themselves.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: He could have issued the directives to the camp commanders, if he wanted to, he wouldn't have to go through Gluecks, would he?
WITNESS: That would have been a highly exceptional case, which I can hardly imagine; that would have meant to by-pass the inspector and interfering with the man's rights.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Didn't Pohl have the authority to hire and dismiss, and didn't he hire and dismiss concentration camp commanders?
WITNESS: I am asked whether Pohl had that authority. I think on any questions pertaining to personnel, he was in a position to express wishes or make suggestions.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, his wish amounted to an order, didn't it?
WITNESS: What is that?
JUDGE PHILLIPS: His wishes amounted to an order. His expression of opinion to an order to a subordinate, didn't it.
WITNESS: I am sorry that all I can say and repeat here: Never did I have the time nor the wish to worry about these legal aspects of the responsibility either in peace or war time. I am unable to say anything from my knowledge; all I can do is to give this Tribunal my honest conviction to the best of my knowledge and belief and that is the one which I expressed before.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Well, in regard to the authority that Pohl had over Gluecks, from what you have testified to about that matter, isn't this what you mean; That Pohl was the Chief of the WVHA; that Gluecks was subordinated to him as the inspector of the concentration camps and that Gluecks took orders from Pohl as to the general administration of the camps, but at the same time Himmler could give orders direct to Gluecks. Is that what you mean to say?
WITNESS: Yes, I believe that is what I said.
THE PRESIDENT: That summarizes in about twenty words what we have been trying to get on to the record for over an hour. Meanwhile the interpreters are suffocating in their booths and we will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
MR ROBBINS: I have only a very few additional questions, and I think we can finish up very shortly.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. I would like to inquire just for a moment into the proposition that you asserted yesterday that only a very small number of people knew about the extermination of Jews and Poles. I would like to direct your attention to the people who were absolutely necessary for the carrying out of this task. It was necessary to have the construction of gas chambers to do this job, was it not? It was necessary to make arrangements for the construction of the gas chambers, and it was necessary to carry out that construction?
A. Certainly.
Q. And undoubtedly the people who built the gas chambers knew what they were going to be used for?
A. I hardly think so.
Q. What else could you use gas chambers for, and the gas chambers extended for blocks?
A. Yes. I don't know whether this explanation was given to the people who constructed these gas chambers, and if they were told just what was being built there and for what purpose the installations were to be used.
Q. Whether or not they were told about the purpose of building it was plain to them, wasn't it, that they were constructing these hege gas chambers so that people--human beings would be gassed there?
A. I myself have never seen such death chambers, and never even have seen a picture of it, so I have no idea whatsoever of it. My entire knowledge consist of hearsay since March, 1945, and, again since it has been determined in the big trial that only one-hundred and fifty persons are alleged to have had knowledge of these things, and participated in them. I myself in my seclusion and imprisonment in solitary confinement lacked any other source of obtaining information for the subject.
Q. I don't know what your reference to one-hundred and fifty people is; these gas chambers were gigantic buildings, they were tremendous, and I can not conceive of any other purpose for which they would be used. Undoubtedly, the people who built those buildings must have known what they were being used for? Well, let me ask you this. The guards who herede the inmates into the gas chambers, they must have known what they were going into the chambers for, didn't they?
A. Well, that could be assumed, yes.
Q. And the people, or the SS men who supervised the carrying out of the dead bodies out of the gas chambers, they knew what was going on, didn't they?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. And the people who constructed the crematory, as well as those who constructed the gas chambers, and the people who carried the bodies from the gas chambers to the crematory, they knew, didn't they?
A. I can only say this should be assumed.
Q. And the people who collected the property from the dead persons, and the people who examined the dead bodies for hidden valuables, they knew what was going on, didn't they?
A. Yes.
Q. And the people who handled these valuables, and audited them, and disposed of them, they must have known what was going on?
A. I don't know what they were told.
Q. Well, the circle of people who knew about the gassings, and the mass liquidation of people, certainly was more than just a handfull, wasn't it? It was not just a few people you told us about yesterday?
A. I don't think that I used the expression "a few people".
I would like to give you a proportional number, then I would assume that the people who had knowledge and who participated in the planning and execution of these monstrosities, were merely tenths of one per cent, and I would say that itself is a good percentage and to a number of one million members of the Waffen-SS, or the General-SS, that it is on infinitely small proportion. For the majority of the SS it is incomprehensible that the entire group collectively were sentenced as criminals, although they neither played any part in this nor did they have any knowledge.
Q. Well, General, I didn't say that every SS man knew about all of the atrocities, and the judgment of the IMT does not condemn every SS man, only those who became and remained members of the SS with knowledge that the SS was being used as a criminal organization, but I don't think this is the place to debate the correctness of the IMT judgment because they listened to evidence over a period of months and came to the solemn deliberation that the SS was being used on a gigantic scale for the extermination of people.
General, you don't today condone or approve the mass liquidation of Jews, do you?
A. To the contrary, I am ashamed, just like any other German that something like this could have happened in Germany at all, and I am twice as ashamed that this happened in a uniform which for us incorporated the highest honor and that this uniform was soiled in such a manner.
Q. And you do not approve either of the working of concentration camp inmates to death, do you?
A. No, by no means.
Q. And your sentiments today are exactly as they were during the war; is that correct?
A. Yes, now I have felt on myself for two years what a concentration camp means, because our imprisonment and our internment is nothing else than a little change from a concentration camp.
Q. I assure you General, that there is a great deal of difference between your imprisonment here in Nurnberg or in any other jail under the Allies from the conditions of inmates in a concentration camp. I would ask you, Do you approve or condone of the killing of inmate workers after they were no longer able to work? That was carried out on a mass scale by the SS.
A. I am opposed completely to this, like any other decent human being.
Q. I ask you if you condone or approve of the wholesale mitration of peoples from one place to another, forced migration?
A. No. If a person really did not come voluntarily, then this person should not be subjected to the injustice and brutality of force.
Q. You don't approve of shipping Poles by the wholesale into Germany for work?
A. No, I am not in agreement with that at all. If I can say it in this way, there were Polish agricultural workers who had come to Germany in peacetime many decades ago. Whoever comes voluntarily, yes, but I am opposed to forced deportation.
Q. And you are opposed, are you not, to the forceful migration of Jews from the Warsaw Ghetto under the force of arms?
A. Naturally.
Q. You are opposed, are you not, to the incarceration in concentration camps of people who were guilty of no other crime than being Jews or Poles?
A. Yes, and I am altogether opposed to the principle of concentration camps out of my own bitter experience.
Q. As to the migration of people from the Warsaw Ghetto, were you informed about that, details of Action Reinhardt?
A. No.
Q. You did not know that Jews were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka and to Lublin and other extermination centers?
A. No.
Q. General, you have maintained that position throughout your testimony here. I would like to show you a document which I believe will considerably refresh your recollection on that point. This is a letter addressed to you, is it not? Do you recognize this letter, General?
A. I have seen only the first letter. May I also look at the enclosure, the second letter?
Q. Yes, indeed. That is your answer to it. I would like to read part of the first letter there, which is a letter from Ganzenmueller, Secretary of State of the Reich Ministry of Transportation, to you. It is dated 28 July 1942, and it reads:
"With reference to our telephone conversation of 16 July, I wish to pass on to you the following report from my General Directorate of the Eastern Railways at Cracow for your information:
"Since 22 July one train per day with 5,000 Jews goes from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka, as well as two trains per week with 5,000 Jews each, from Przemysl to Belzek. Bedob is in constant touch with the S D at Cracow. The latter agrees that transports from Warsaw via Lublin to Sobibor, near Lublin, should be interrupted as long as building on this route makes those transports impossible."
And then your reply a few days later on 13 August 1942 to Ganzenmueller:
"Dear Party Member Ganzenmueller:
"Thank you very much, also in the name of the Reichsfuehrer SS, for your letter of 28 July 1942. I was especially pleased to learn from you that already for a fortnight a daily train, taking 5,000 members of the Chosen People every time, had gone to Treblinka--" and so forth. "I have contacted the departments concerned myself, so that the smooth carrying out of all these measures seems to be guaranteed."
Does this help your recollection, General?
A. Yes, the letter is an original letter which State Secretary Ganzenmueller addressed to me. It also bears my personal remarks, and it is beyond any doubt correct. Likewise the letter which I wrote in reply.
Q. Would you read to the Tribunal the handwritten notes which are in your handwriting on the original? I don't think they appear on our copy.
A. Yes, very well: "Thanking you very much. Copy sent to Dr. Brandt, Brigadefuehrer Globocnik and Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger. 2 August "and my initial "W".
Q. Now, you told us this morning that it was considered bad taste and indelicate to discuss such matters as this. Apparently, such discussions were carried on. The letter says that you talked to Ganzenmueller about this on the telephone; you wrote letters about it. You don't still maintain that you knew nothing about the transportation of Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka? You were informed about that?
A. I do not deny in any way, after my memory had been refreshed in this way, that I was connected with these things. However, it is completely impossible after many years have passed to precisely remember every letter which ever passed through my office, and may I also point out that this was the usual procedure. When we were captured, not only all our papers were removed, but also all our personal property was taken away.
Q. Do you mean to tell us that you didn't hear anything about this matter until 1945, until you read it in the newspapers in Switzerland? Do you mean to say that you could not remember that 5,000 Jews a day were being shipped from Warsaw for six days--no, you say in your letter 14 days. That is 70,000 Jews, General.
A. I admit without any reservation that this had slipped from my memory. However, it is not possible for a human being to remember every letter which I wrote during a number of years. I gave the answers according to the best of my belief and knowledge and to the best of my recollection.
Q. I am not so much concerned about your remembering the letter as I am about your remembering the general subject matter of the letter. I am asking you if this represents what you call the best blood of the Germans? Is this the elite group that you were talking about, the select character of the German nation? Is that the way you were building up Greater Germany, and if we are going to look into the examination of history, as you have told us, those are facts that ought to be brought out, isn't that true?
A. Certainly. However, in a transportation of the Jews, I really can't find anything which might be considered criminal.
Q. Well, you consider transportation of Jews in wholesale masses from Warsaw to Treblinka for the purpose of extermination as a war crime, do you not?
A. I told you that I can only use my memory, and I can only certify to the best of my knowledge and belief that I had nothing to do with these things.
Q. Let's see if your memory is better on another subject. Do you remember Himmler's address to the officers of the SS-Adolf Hitler on the day of Metz on the presentation of the historical Nazi flag? It was in 1940 or '41.
A. Where did that happening take place?
Q. Well, it was on the day of Metz, M-e-t-z. I don't have the location of the speech. It was on the presentation of the Nazi flag, and it was addressed to officers of SS-Leibstrandarte. You don't remember that?
A. I don't want to claim in any way that I did not accompany the Reichsfuehrer and that I was there. As a matter of fact I consider it probable. However, I am not able to say it with absolute certainty after six or seven years have passed.
Q. Do you remember Himmler's statement on that occasion as follows: "The building program, which is the prerequisite for a healthy and social basis of the entire SS, as well as of the entire Fuehrerkorps, can be carried out only when I get the money for it from some where. Nobody is going to give me the money. It must be earned, and it will be earned by forcing the scum of mankind to work." Do you remember Himmler saying that?
A. I cannot remember it, but I consider it quite probable.
Q. Were you at Himmler's speech at Cracaw in April, 1943? It was a speech to the Gruppenfuehrers.
A. Certainly not. As far as I can remember I was not at Cracow anymore in 1943.
Q. Do you remember-
A. Can you tell me when this was alleged to have happened, on what day and in what month?
Q. It was in April, 1943.
A. Well, I can certainly remember it because I am able to prove that in April, 1943, I was still in the hospital at Hohenlychen, convalescing from a wound of an operation.
Q. Did you hear that Himmler said on that occasion that antisemitism is exactly the same as delousing, getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology?
A. No, I did not hear that at the time. I only heard it here during my imprisonment.
Did you hear that Himmler said at Posen in October, 1943, the following: "I also want to talk to you quite frankly about a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. I mean the cleaning out of the Jews the extermination of the Jewish race." Did you hear about that?
A. No, at that time I was in combat in Italy, and I did not receive any knowledge of that according to the best of my knowledge and belief.
Q. Well, Himmler says that, "We should speak about it quite frankly among ourselves." You mean that he never spoke to you about this question?
A. No.
Q. You know today that millions of Jews were exterminated under Himmler's policy, and I ask you if this is the best, represents the best of the German blood? Is this the elite that you were talking about, the select character of the SS with all of its cultural tendencies?
A. The majority of the SS members had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Q. You don't deny that the SS themselves carried out the program, do you?
A. No. I said that the majority of the SS, and I again want to point out that only a very small minority actually had anything to do with this matter and had any knowledge of it or heard of it subsequently.
Q. Well, you don't claim today that Himmler was among those elite people who represented the best of German kind, do you?
A. No, I cannot maintain that today, much as I would like to.
Q. And Rudolf Ferdi and Hoess, who was an SS man in charge of Auschwitz has given an affidavit which is used in this case in which he says that he carried out the execution of three million Jews. You don't consider Hoess an example of the best of German kind, do you?
A. In no manner whatsoever. One only has to look at him to see that.
Q. And you know Otto Ollendorf, do you not? He was an SS man?
A. Yes.
Q. He has given an affidavit which is used in this case, and he says: "When the German army invaded Russia I was leader of the Einsatzgruppe D it liquidated approximately 90,000 men, women and children. The majority of those liquidated were Jews, but there were among them some Communist functionaries too. The unit selected for this task would enter a village or a city and order the prominent Jewish citizens to call together all Jews for the purpose of resettlement." And then he goes on to say how they were shot sown in ditches. That was not carried out by one SS man. You don't consider this the best that Germany can offer, do you?
A. No.
Q. And you don't consider this just a minor violation of land warfare, do you?
A. No, this is the worst crime which has been committed in the history of mankind.
Q. Well, there have been quite a number, General, that were carried out by the SS which perhaps were just as bad. Did you hear about the destruction of the village of Lidice in Czechoslovaki? The I. M. T. found as a matter of fact that this was carried out by the SS. This isn't the best that the German youth can offer, is it?
A. I am unable to judge that. The court at Dachau has also determined that forty-seven men of the Leibstandarte had shot down the Americans at Malmedy, and later on it was discovered-
Q. I didn't ask you anything about the Malmedy trial. I am asking you, you don't condone the destruction of the village of Lidice, do you, you don't approve of that, do you?
A. I am unaware of the details which happened there. I can only claim for myself that under my command no villages were destroyed and no such actions were ever carried out.
Q. Well, I am asking you now about the demonstrations that took plane on the 10th of November, 1938, where all over Germany property of the Jews, their houses were destroyed and burned, and synagogues were destroyed and burned. That action was carried out in part by the SS. You are not proud of that, are you?
A. No, to the contrary.
Q. You told us yesterday that the murders in the concentration camps which were carried out by SS men could be explained by the fact that only the thugs were left to guard the concentration camps, and the best of the SS men went off to war. But I ask you, General, before 1939 such men as Koch, Burger, Schroeder, Lolling, Eicke, all those men were in charge of concentration camps and working in concentration camps before 1939, and even the Defendant Oswald Pohl here has told us that the reason he had so much trouble with the concentration-camp commanders and guards was that they were trained under Eicke, which was before the war began. Let me ask you this, General, the fact is, isn't it, that the SS men were trained from the beginning to be hard criminals, and isn't it true, General, that they received their training to be hard in the concentration camps?