Q. Witness, on several occasions you referred to the fact that office A-4 released its personnel. Did that release of personnel have any effect on the extent of the activities of the auditing office? For example, I am thinking of reduction of the auditing activity. Do you know anything about that?
A. Yes. I myself in 1943, in January or February, called on the president of the Treasury Department in Potsdam. I described to him the situation of the Waffen SS the extreme shortage of personnel, the increasing needs of the troops; and I expressed the urgent wish that he take care of the auditing needs and reduce it to the utmost, which he could answer for. The president saw my point and issued an order, according to which the auditing of all bills of the Waffen SS was to be postponed, mainly until after the war. The result was that Vogt's auditing department was changed from one of the most important departments, which it was at the beginning of the war, to a completely valueless - or, rather, I do not wish to say valueless but a less valuable and less obvious agency. Its main task was merely to have the troops not think that nothing was being audited at all because that would have meant the risk of individual administrative officers using the opportunity to embezzle or steal money, hoping that the war would hide this fact and they would not be found out, for which reason the impression was maintained that auditing went on quite normally. Meanwhile the auditing was piled up in the WVHA and shelved with the order to audit it after the war.
Q. A few questions. Did you and Vogt ever go on an official trip together, Witness?
A. No, I can't recall any such occasion.
Q. Did you and Vogt have intimate personal contact outside your office hours?
A. You did not. My last question, do you know whether Vogt was ever present at a meeting of the commandants in Berlin or Oranienburg or anywhere else?
A. As far as I know, I don't think so. I don't know. It wouldn't have been any of his business.
Q. Thank you very much. No further questions.
EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL (For the defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q. Witness, I have only two questions to ask you. My first question is concerned with Document NO-057, which is Prosecution Exhibit 487, in Document Book 19, Action Reinhardt. This is on Page 24 of the German Document Book.
A. Yes, I have found it.
Q. That is a report of SS Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik about the economic aspect of Action Reinhardt, dated 18 January 1944. The document says, and I quote: "The economic aspect of Action Reinhardt collected in the WVHA under Special Task G, which I am in charge of.." My question to you is connected with Globocnik's report. Do you know, Witness, whether in the WVHA there was such an agency which concentrated these tasks in its agency?
A. No, never. I myself read for the first time in that document that Globocnik had established a Special Department G. He says himself, as you quoted, Doctor, "which I am in charge of." That is Globocnik. He must have collected a staff there with which he carried out this special task. How it occurred to him to refer himself to the WVHA here I am unable to understand. It would surely have been contained in some document of the WVHA, and the prosecution has not shown the document referring to the WVHA. Some reference would have been made to Special Task G, and so forth, by Pohl or by myself, or somebody else in the Main Office would have signed a document of that sort on that occasion. I wish to say that as far as the Special Task G was concerned or any other part of the Reinhardt Action, we never put any personnel at the disposal of the Action as Globocnik states, as far as I know, in his report. All we are concerned with here are the NCO's really because as far as officers were concerned, there was only Sturmbannfuehrer Winter in Lublin. He was not sent to Lublin because of the Action Reinhardt.
He was in charge of the garrison pay and account office, a purely military task, in other words; and the n.c.o. personnel was at no time directed by the WVHA during wartime. That was not the custom nor was it part of the official regulation. This personnel were changed by the agencies concerned without the WVHA having any part in it whatever.
Q. To sum up, I may say that there was never an agency or an official in the WVHA who had to deal with Special Task G?
A. No, not in the WVHA.
Q. Another question. Do you know anything about the authority which SS Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik received from Himmler and what the relations were between Globocnik and Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl?
A. I am not quite sure, Doctor, of what you mean by authority. Authority in respect to what do you mean?
Q. From the documents submitted by the prosecution the conclusion must be drawn that Gruppenfuehrer Globocnik just as much as Sturnmbannfuehrer Hoess had a definite order which he received from the Reichsfuehrer SS. My question to you is whether you know from that period anything about the fact that Hoess and Globocnik had a talk with you about this, which is one part of my question; and the other part is what the relations were between Globocnik and Pohl.
A. I have already expressed my opinion in this trial that today I think that Globocnik had received his orders to go to Lublin from Himmler direct. I said before that I arrived at this conclusion about Globocnik on the basis of his high position in the Party, because he had been in the Party for such a number of years, and because of his personal connections with Himmler. Had he not had all these advantages, he would never have been sent to Lublin as SS and Police Leader, The intimate relations between Himmler and Globocnik must have existed; but that became clear to me only later on and mainly from the documents; because otherwise how would it have been possible for Himmler to write to Globocnik "My dear Globus"? That shows such a degree of intimacy, and such a highly personal relationship of an unusual degree that one can no longer call this an official relation.
I am quite sure that he received his direct orders from Hitler himself, from Bouhler, and from Himmler. That one can figure out from the documents quite as well.
Globocnik lived veiled in secrecy to an unusual degree. He never discussed these things with anybody. On the contrary, Globocnik made great efforts to make known the fact that he had orders from Himmler to establish in the southern part of the Government General a cordon of fortresses, so-called SS and Police bases. I myself saw the plans and drawings of these fortresses which without a gap were to reach from north to south because in 1941 and 1942 one did not know whether one was to advance move or whether a fortified line was to be established. Globocnik himself, which I remember very well, before the Russian campaign built what was known as an Eastern wall.
Q. Witness, I don't think it is necessary for you to give us all these details.
A. But it is interesting because we knew Globocnik from that aspect, not from the point of view of extermination, which was the point I wished to make, and that is what we thought the authority of Globocnik was.
As far as the second part of your question is concerned, the relationship between Globocnik and Pohl was extremely bad. Proof can be found in the report by Dr. May, which is in one of the document books. Dr. May says in one paragraph, "It is my impression that relations between Globocnik and Pohl improved a little since my visit." From that it can been seen that relations were bad.
Q. What about your own observations?
A. They affirm that.
DR. SEIDL: No further questions.
BY DR. HOFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Scheide):
Q. Witness, I have only one question. If I understood you correctly, you said on Friday that for two reasons you had nothing against your resignation from the WVHA. One was the fact that you disliked the taking of clothes, valuables, and other things from Jews in the Eastern territories, and the other was that you no longer liked the general atmosphere which had come about when the concentration camps were incorporated. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. I should, therefore, like to ask you whether you know if the defendant Scheide, whom I represent, had the same knowledge as you had and faced therefore the same dilemma.
A. That does not apply to Scheide at all. At that time Scheide was taken from the front in order to organize the motorized transport questions with the WVHA. The WVHA had grown, and it was therefore necessary to have an expert to regulate all technical aspects of transportation. From our point of view Scheide, therefore, was a complete outsider.
Internally speaking, he knew nothing at all of the WVHA. He was not an administrative officer. He was purely a technical officer and remained that, and our nickname for him was "Gas Uncle" because we were deeply fond of him in that respect.
THE PRESIDENT: The nickname was what?
THE INTERPRETER: "Gasoline Uncle".
BY DR. CARL HAENSEL (Counsel for Georg Loerner):
Q. Herr Frank, you gave a number of affidavits during the interrogations.
A. I believe you are wrong, Doctor. I gave only one.
Q. You gave only one? That affidavit is contained in Document Book I and it deals with a large number of questions, including that of the food problem. There you refer to Georg Loerner, and I find the sentence in Document Book I, Document 1576-NO, Exhibit 4, pages 17 and 18 of the German text, pages 12 and 13 of the English text I wish to refer to now.
You say there of Goerg Loerner that he had been chief of Office Group B of the WVHA and that it had been his task as the Highest Food Chief with the Reichsfuehrer SS to see to it that shortages in one concentration camp should be made up. You continue to say that Loerner had been the highest official for the feeding and clothing of concentration camp inmates. This opinion of yours does not correspond with what Goerg Loerner has told me and what I have to tell this Court. Would you please tell me first of all how it came about that you arrived at that time, "Highest Food Chief"? In this trial we have seen a great many high chiefs, Higher SS and Police leaders, and lately even a "Highest SS and Police Leader", but the "Highest Food Chief" we have not yet had. Did that term and title exist, and what is the point of this particular term that you used?
A. I think I must have made a mistake. I must have meant the "Highest Food Inspectorate" with the Reichsfuehrer SS. That was Professor Doctor Schenk. As far as my high opinion of Loerner is con cerned concerning his food and clothing activities, this was based on the time when I myself was administrative officer of the Waffen SS in 1941 and 1942, until I was incorporated into the WHA.
During that period of time Loerner was very often my last refuge, because when I was worried about food and clothing for the troops he was at that time my ministerial agent, and whenever I had worries I would turn to Loerner. Then I was incorporated into the WVHA and I myself became a ministerial agent. Loerner's position did not change.
Now, when Mr. Ortman, my interrogator, asked me whether it was not quite obvious that Loerner, since he was a ministerial agency for the troops, would be the same for concentration camps, I said, "Well, that is the way I see it myself." Nevertheless, I had misgivings because I knew that concentration camps and their administrative officer received their food, not from Loerner's department, the Troop Administration, but from the Food Offices, and I arrived at the conclusion that that must have been incorrect. If the lower agency collaborates with the Reich Food Ministry, the higher agency cannot be something different, surely. Therefore, if concentration camps were fed by the civilian sector, help in cases of emergency could not be supplied by the Troop Administration. That also should come from the civilian sector, in other words, the Ministry of Food.
For that reason, immediately after my interrogation, when I had thought these things over, I turned again to Mr. Ortman through my counsel, and I asked him to allow me to make a correction, but Mr. Ortman, although he was always very correct and kind, in this case was quite merciless. One could find out through the files that this conversation concerning the correction of my affidavit took place in the presence of my counsel and lasted about an hour, and I thought I had persuaded Mr. Ortman that I had made a mistake, but as I said before, on that particular point he would not yield and would not allow me to make a correction.
Q. Now, Herr Frank, you said that Georg Loerner in the years before 1941 helped you whenever you were in difficulties as far as food was con cerned.
That is all very nice, but there is a major difference between something happening outside my competence and duties when there is an emergency and my being the responsible official for the fact that everything reaches the spot that it should reach, and that important difference must be defined with extreme clarity.
A. Excuse me, Doctor, if I interrupt you. I believe you are making a mistake here. In 1941, as long as I was an administrative official of the Waffen SS, it was not Loerner's kindness or friendship to help me, it was his duty to help me, but as far as concentration camp emergencies were concerned, he did it although it was not his duty. It was indeed outside his duty.
Q: That is an important difference, quite right. How do you conclude that, that it was not his duty, it was merely a kindness to help the concentration camps? You are our witness. Please tell the facts.
A: It is quite simple. It can be concluded from the fact that all concentration camp inmates, as the documents show, were fed by the civilian sector. That is to say from the same sector which fed the civilian population in Germany. We had two food sectors. One sector was the armed forces and the other sector was the German civilian population. As a very prominent official I am in a position to say this because I myself was in charge of the armed forces eating sector. Therefore in that position Reichsminister Backe was my colleague in the civilian sector. These were the two large circles in the food sector. The other sector, which Backe was in charge of included concentration-camp inmates.
There would have been, at the most, an enormous muddle, if suddenly ne day 100,000 concentration-camp inmates were fed by Backe's sector and the next day Loerner would suddenly send 300 wagons of food to the concentration camps, thereby taking them away from the armed forces feeding sector. That would have been an offended even.
I would like to say briefly that helping out, because of orders from higher up, when I was in the WVHA, was not necessary. At that time I had no experience of that sort because helping but became necessary at a time only when the heavy air raids began, when rail communications had been interrupted, when camps were overcrowded because of confused decisions and so on and so forth. In 1933 when I was in the WVHA one might call conditions normal.
Q: It seems to me that it is quite clear now that we must continue to clear this matter up, the particular distinction between the military sector on the one hand, and the civilian sector on the other. You dealt with the military sector yourself, if I understood you correctly. Now, what was George Loerner's part of it, where did he belong?
A: He belonged, through the time I knew him, to the military sector.
Q: Not to the civilian sector?
A: Never.
Q: Tell me, in your interrogation you said something which I made a note of because it seemed so important to me. You said that in wartime such moneys as were needed by you for your military sector you had at your disposal from the Reich treasury as your needed them. You called this an open budget. You also said that such money as for some reason was lacking would be booked the treasury. That, in other words, was a process which relieved you of any financial care, or any necessity to make any money. Now, from that basis, if you look at the economic enterprises of the WVHA, the question arises, what was the point of all this effort to make money? After all the money was there. Why should you wish to make money? Did you wish to finance the SS with that money, because that is what the indictment says? Did you wish to use the money you earned to finance the SS illegally, or did you think that the money also, as far as you wanted to have it, would be at your disposal?
A: That question, Doctor, is most interesting. In wartime we coined an extremely ugly term. That term was "money doesn't matter". That wont so far that that was a widely used quotation. It was extremely dangerous really. That the economic enterprises in wartime, to say nothing about the time before the war, had in no sense of the work the purpose of making money; I, as an outsider, think I really am in a position to say that. Because it was not necessary to make money for the troops or the Allgemeine-SS. The AllgemeineSS in wartime had decreased respectively to zero. The Waffen-SS, on the other hand, had the money which it needed. Whether Pohl had the ambition to be an economic giant, or become one, or whether the Reichsfuehrer was particularly interested to carry out part of the armament program, through the concentration camps, I am unable to say, being a simple military expert, but I do not think that at any time during the war making money was an important motive.
Q: Tell me, you spoke of Pohl and his possible ambitions to be a little Stinnes or a great Stinnes. Let's talk about Georg Loerner and yourself. You two had a fairly similar career, did you not, and you have known each other for a long time. I believe you met in 1934. You on the one side, and the economic experts on the other were, so to speak, slightly opposed to one another. I would like to ask you, did Georg Loerner and yourself take an important view of the activities you did in the economic sector outside your task in the military sector?
A: I myself, no, certainly not, because I regarded myself always as a military administrative official, and I think I can say the same of Goerg Loerner. I believe his economic activities set in without his realizing it or without his wishing to do so, because he was also knee-deep in administration tasks for the Waffen-SS. And I believe it was more his official rank and the fact that Pohl had discovered that Loerner had a commercial high school training behind him that tempted Pohl to have Loerner as a sort of liaison officer and on paper as his deputy. It is not my impression that Loerner was very busy economically speaking. It is very difficult for me to say this clear because I had very little insight into Office A, which becomes clear from my affidavit also.
Q: You mean B, B for "Bertha"?
A: Yes, yes, yes, because if I had precise insight into these things I would not have said all this nonsense in my affidavit.
Q: That is very interesting what you say just now because it sheds a light on the clear distinction between the various groups within the WVHA. Did you and Loerner or any other office chiefs in the same position have joint talks and conversations, on frequent occasions did you discuss your duties and tasks, or were the office groups working almost separately?
A: I and Loerner at long intervals of time, we discussed what we called "top" matters. That means Loerner would tell me roughly about what he would have to spend in the coming year, because as a budget official I was interested in this. The Reich Minister of Finance, after all, had to have a vague idea at least of the money he had to earmark for us, but five million here or ther would not play an important part. But he had to know more or less, would he have to earmark 300 or 500 million or a thousand million.
THE PRESIDENT: Your see where you are going, Dr. Haensel? You asked had he and Loerner or the other department heads ever had conferences.
DR. HAENSEL: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then look where he is now.
DR. HAENSEL: He said no, and I think my question has been dealt with. He merely give a little addition of his own.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, not a little addition. Try another question, Doctor.
Q: (By Dr. Haensel) Tell me, we are agreed, that the concentration camps were not part of the military sector as far as the food was concerned, they were part of the civilian sector. Did you regard the administration of the concentration camps, and reference has been made to the Inspectorate of the Concentration camps on numerous occasions, as an organization which was a foreign body, as it were, in your administration of military tasks; one which you disliked?
A. Administration of concentration Camps were Reich administrations, just as the troop administrations were. I am even of the opinion that the administrative official of a concentration comp had a very special task to be industrious, honest, and efficient. Thousands of human beings were in his care who were unable to look after their own rights as the troops were, by which I mean that if a soldier did not have enough to eat, they complained; they would raise hess; whereas if the concentration camp inmates did not have enough to eat they could also complain, but I think that was an academic activity.
Q. Witness, I believe we should stick to our subject. I am not interested in the general moral points, what the men in the camp should have done. It was about your and Loerner's attitude. What was your attitude?
A. Doctor, in that case you shouldn't have asked me whether I disliked the agency. If you ask me that question I have to say something.
Q. Excuse me. Likes and dislikes, I mean your personal attitude, not what it was like objectively, because that we know. We want to know subjectively what your own personal attitude was. Was it your tendency not to be bothered with it?
A. You mean myself, doctor?
Q. Yes, I do, and from your attitude I wish to make conclusions about George Loerner's attitude.
A. I don't quite see the point of the question.
Q. Tell me when were the concentration camps taken into the WVHA? When?
A. I believe it is a well known fact, in April 1942.
Q. Was at that time the administrative office in full swing?
A. What administrative office?
Q. The WVHA. Did it exist at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. Concentration came later on, didn't they? In your circle among the higher chiefs did you approve of that or were you opposed to it, that concentration camps were added to your organization?
A. Doctor, I said that once before.
Q. Yes or no?
A. We did not like it.
Q. Why did you not like it?
A. Doctor, I can't give you an answer in one brief sentence, as you seem to expect.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And as the Court desires.
WITNESS: Please?
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead, the two sentences then. Go ahead.
BY DR HAENSEL:
Q. Once again we will discuss likes and dislikes, which I want you to tell us something about. Why do you tell us you didn't like it?
A. Doctor, why I disliked it very much--we all of us disliked it very much. Who wanted to have anything to do with inmates of prisons ever? I even maintain that all those who volunteered for concentration camps as guards or officials were somehow pathological types. I never would have volunteered for this. It is a hateful activity to supervise a man who is locked up. And I believe that the principle of the whole matter is that any normal instincts, negative instincts, that is, are being awakened by the knowledge that I am confronted with a man who cannot hit back. And I see that particularly clearly here in this American prison, how careful the American prison authorities are to see to it that no such instincts will ever be awakened. We have seen American soldiers for instance, who were perhaps not always entirely correct towards us, and they were immediately relieved. And that is what I missed in our organization, that these bastards who got rid of their pathological instincts were not immediately sent away again and replaced by decent people. And now let me talk about the administrative official.
An administrative official could do a lot of good and he had quite a bit of power at hand. Time conditions prevented him from supervising these people in the way in which it would have been necessary. I believe that goes far beyond likes and dislikes. And as far as Loerner--to talk about Loerner--he was sitting in Berlin. What could he do? What could he change? What could he improve? He would have had to take his car and drive about all the time, which he was unable to do, and I was unable to do. And the inspectors were missing, a sufficient number of people were missing to inspect concentration camps all the time is, I think, the most fatal piece of economy ever done by Himmler.
Q. My dear Herr Frank, you have a terrific prejudice against the terms "likes" and "dislikes". I did not mean it maliciously. I can dislike something, for instance your description of the concentration camps. If I have to use that word for the record, you disliked the concentration camp. Now from that it become clear, as you hinted yourself, and which is the point I was aiming at, the fact remains that you keep things which you dislike at a large distance from you, if you can. You don't bother about these things unless you absolutely have to. And that, perhaps, may be the key for the understanding for the reply which you gave and which George Loerner keeps giving me, that of certain events and incidents in these concentration comps you had no exact knowledge of. But you must admit one thing without endangering your veracity, or otherwise you must shake your veracity. You must admit that these were dislikes and that it was known generally that brutalities and other things did occur.
A Doctor, that concentration camps were not a school for girls is beyond all doubt, of course. An intelligent man once said, "Mistrust is the salt of democracy." I believe we were lacking in that. We were all blindly confident, and we all subscribed to the opinion that the higher ups will make everything correct. That they did not do so we have seen today.
Q. Well, well, as you quote I am reminded of another quotation. The British have created something wonderful in the 18th century, which is the Beggers Opera. That is a story of Mackey and his henchmen who are about to found a state. It is a piece of a most moving relevance to the Nazi period and most excellent version. It has been produced by Bert Brecht and music has been composed by Kurt Weil. It was a great success in Germany before '33, and that version was shown on all stages of the world. The wonderful ditties.
THE PRESIDENT: It is now in Now York, doctor.
DR. HAENSEL: In New York?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. HAENSEL:
Q . I wish to recall one ditty from it, which goes, as I recall it---Who would not like to be a good man? We all would be good instead of being brutal, but conditions are different. That is what applies to concentration camps. A situation or condition existed, and it cannot lead to anything good no matter when or where or who establishes them, and now it is a human reaction for a military official, whether he is called Frank or Loerner, to keep away from these things as much as possible, deals with them only if he is forced by orders given from above. Therefore the question with which I opened my examination is so important. Was George Loerner from a point of view of his authority, was he forced and compelled to see to it that these inmates be fed and clothed? You said no yourself, and I only summed up right now.
THE PRESIDENT: Doctor, shall we catch our breath for a few minutes and take the recess?
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. HAENSEL (Counsel for the defendant Georg Loerner):
Q I wanted to refer once more to one detail, briefly, and that is Lublin. In Document Book 11, there is document NO-3031. This is on page 28 of the German document book. It is a decree by Himmler and there are various points which he ordered. One point deals with the fact that the officers clothing shop of the SS was to draw its entire clothing requirements from the plants at Lublin, the workshops there. And it was to establish a branch agency there which was to regulate the entire clothing requirements in question.
Did you ever have anything to do with this clothing shop-that was the clothing shop of the SS?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
AAs long as I was chief of the troop administrative office.
Q And what did Georg Loerner have to do with this treasury?
A I believe it was subordinated to him. After it was incorporated into the WVHA. However, I cannot say that with a hundred percent certainty.
Q Will you please briefly tell the Tribunal just what the clothing shop of the SS means?
A It can be described as being a service, a facility for the officers. It was an enterprise from which all officers in the Waffen-SS drew their requirements in clothing. That is, they were able to purchase uniforms there: clothing, underwear, and whatever was part of the equipment of officers.
Q And in order to enable them to cover their supplies this decree of Himmler's ordered that these requirements were to be drawn from the workshops at Lublin. Well, was it possible now that the clothing shop of the SS constructed this clothing from old material which had been previously used?
A No, that was not the idea at all.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Does this mean that the concept of Lublin was much more extensive than that of a collecting point, where old material was collected of doubtful origin?
A I don't think that I have to emphasize that particularly. One has only to look at Document 063. This is an annual report by Globocnik about the activity--just a moment please--about the clothing plant at Lublin.
In this document he writes that beginning the first of January, 1943, up to the first of October 1943, more than one and a half million pieces of clothing were newly manufactured. Of these there were civilian orders alone for 3,000,000 zlotys--that is one and a half million Reichsmark. And this shows beyond any doubt that Globocnik had extraordinarily large tailoring plants there.
Q Is Lublin now identical with Globocnik? What I mean to say is Lublin--in order to help you somewhat--isn't Lublin a sort of a central agency of the manufacturing and clothing industry which was located in the East? That is, aside from the period of time when Globocnik was there.
A I think I can make a very brief statement on that. After the campaign in Russia had begun workshops had to be established in the East with the troops, where the troops were able to have their equipment repaired quickly without first having to send them back to Germany. At the time I myself sent an expert to the East in order to examine the possibilities of establishing such repair shops. And in order to have plants established where underwear could be manufactured. On this occasion this man happened to go to Lublin. It was required by military orders to report it to the SS and Police Leader. This had to be done for military reasons. Globocnik at the time asked him just what he wanted in Lublin, and he answered him very briefly: He was looking for an opportunity to establish a repair shop for the troops where shirts and so on could be manufactured. Globocnik told him, as far as I can recall, "Oh, that is an excellent matter. I have several Court No. II, Case No. 4.thousand sewing machines at my disposal here.
We can manufacture everything you want to; whatever you need, will be manufactured here. We have a big manufacturing center here, bigger than can be found anywhere in the East."
That is the first point we had any contact with Globocnik.
Q. Accordingly, do you have to assume that the turn-over in clothing and the deliveries from Lublin, which came to be known to Amtsgruppe B, had a very large extent?
A. I want to refer once more to this affidavit.
Q. I mean to a large extent outside of the so-called "Action Reinhardt".
A. I am convinced that at the time when the person I sent there discovered the conditions described here the Action Reinhardt was completely unknown, and I believe I can say from the documents that any action was unknown at all.
Q. When you as chief of the Amtsgruppe heard about certain disposition at Lublin, could you refer there to the regular procedure, or were you to be suspicious right from the beginning?
A. No, I could not and did not have to gain any suspicion whatever. Globocnik from 1 January 1943 to October 1943 had already reported the manufacture of one and a half million pieces of clothing, then, during the year 1942; in the year 1941 he must have reached the same amount, to the same extent.
DR. HAENSEL: I am convinced.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q. Going back to the matter of food for the concentration camps, whose task was it to requisition the food from the Food Ministry for the concentration camps?
A. The Tribunal has used the word "seizure" and "confiscation".
Q. No, no. Requisition - ask for.
A. I want to give you an example very briefly. The administrative leader composes his menu for one week. Now he has to consider "Will I be able to feed my prisoners during the coming week? What will I be able to give them in beans, peas, potatoes, meat, sausage, and so on?" He therefore went to the next food office which was competent to him with his planned menu. At least that is the way I think it probably was. I myself had nothing to do with it. The Food Office told him on this occasion, "We will not be able to give you any peas.