AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 9 June 1947)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HOFFMAN: May it please the Court, I have a question concerning procedure. When the document book was put together, it became clear that I wished to submit a number of legal points which I have taken from a volume of collected laws which is part of the library here. I am unable to submit these in the original because I must return them to the library. Would it be sufficient for the Court and the Prosecution if I were to have the correctness of the text certified, or am I to have the certification done by the liaison officer in charge of the Defense Information Center?
THE PRESIDENT: What books are they, Dr. Hoffman?
DR. HOFFMAN: They are a collection of laws and decrees consisting of German legal Gazettes. From these legal Gazettes I wish to take certain decrees, and I have to return the original Gazettes. I am not allowed to leave them with the Court.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you not make a written copy of the parts that you wish to use?
DR. HOFFMAN: Yes, that is what I want to do, but can I certify the correctness of the text, or should that be done by an officer?
THE PRESIDENT: I am sure we would be satisfied with your certificate that they were true copies.
DR. HOFFMAN: Thank you.
BY DR. GAWLIK: (for the defendant Dr. Bobermin)
Q: Witness, what were the tasks of IV-A in a military staff?
A: IV-A Military Staff was the consultant of the commanding officer in all economic matters of the troops.
Q: Is it correct, then, that IV-A was the administrative officer?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you please give the Tribunal examples of the tasks of IV-A.
A: Let me state the example of a higher administrative officer. For instance it would be best if I used the so-called general command, as an example. The commander in chief of the general command was a general. In order to assist him in economic matters, he had under him an administrative general. That administrative general had two channels at his disposal. One channel of command ended with his commanding officer, with the commanding officer in charge. In that sense, he was his economic advisor. The other channel ended with the chief of the army administrative office; that was a purely technical channel. And that example can be applied to all other examples.
Q: Witness, please tell the court what he did in detail. Can you give us detailed examples of what he had to take care of and what his tasks were?
A: For instance, a complaint would reach the general that the troops had insufficient food.
Q: So he had to deal with food, and what else?
A: Clothes.
Q: And what else?
A: He had to see to it that the troops got their pay. He had to see to it that the men were properly billeted, and so on.
Q: I shall submit to you Document NO-1015, which is in Document Book XVI on Page 92. Here reference is made to IV-A with the higher SS and police leader, in the district of Lublin and I should like to ask you did IV-A with the SS and police leader in Lublin have the same tasks which you described just now?
(Witness is given the Document Book).
A: No. Globocnik was not a commanding officer in the sense of a commanding officer.
Q: What did this IV-A have to do?
A: His task there was of a purely administrative nature.
Q: What tasks were they?
A: The troops in Lublin and around Lublin had to be paid by him. He was not concerned with their food, however. He had to see to it that they had billets. That I think was his main task.
Q: You said that IV-A had to see to it about wages and billets.
A: He was not a IV-A. You can only be a IV-A if you have a commanding officer above you.
Q: But it says IV-A here.
A: I don't know why it does. He was not a IV-A with the SS and police leader. This was written by someone who did not have expert knowledge.
Q: What was he?
A: He was in charge of the garrison administration.
Q: Was his task similar to IV-A?
A: No. I object to that. It was not like that! We are concerned here with Sturmbannfuehrer Wippern in Lublin. He was in charge with the garrison administration, and what he had to do as such, I have described just now. His relationship with Globocnik was based on a special order which had nothing to do with military assignments.
Q: But it is correct to say that he had to look after pay and billeting?
A: Pay and billeting, yes, that is correct.
Q: And is it also correct to say that a IV-A in the military staff had also to look after wages and billets? +
A: Yes.
Q: Therefore, the activities of this man were the same as that of IV-A with the military agency? Please answer my question "Yes" or "No."
A: No. A IV-A must have a commanding officer above him, otherwise he is not a IV-A only an administrative officer. They are two distinct things.
Q: It doesn't matter what the man is called surely. You said this man had to look after pay and billeting, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you said IV-A with a military agency also had to look after pay and billeting, is that correct?
A: Melmer in his sphere as an administrative officer in the garrison had the same task as any other administrative officer at home and in occupied territory.
Q: Witness, will you please answer my question. You said a IV-A with a military agency also looked after billets and wages, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Thank you very much. There are no further questions on that point. What do you know about credits granted by supply firms to military agencies? Was that a usual thing to happen that supply firms would grant credits to branches of the Armed Forces, or rather that the Armed Forces granted a credit to these supply firms?
A: As the war intensified, yes, it became necessary, because the supply firms did not always have such capital to find the money themselves for the orders.
Q: What can you tell us about the terms, how these credits came about?
A: One might say briefly that there were two manners in which a credit would be granted; either the firm concerned from the beginning received a certain sum for which it had to give security and on which it had to pay interest and which were calculated into the deliveries. These credits, in other words, were always approximately the same amount as the deliveries. The other manner was that each order individually was paid in advance by a certain sum as opposed to a general payment in advance.
Q: What do you know about the terms attached to this?
A: The terms depended upon what sort of a firm it was. In war time, most firms were semi-nationalized or at least subsidized by the State. Of these firms, the securities demands were very small, but if they were purely private firms, the firm either had to give a banker's reference or a building as security. Interest had to be paid in every case and the contract had to express when the money had to be paid back.
Q: Thank you very much. No further questions.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q: Were war bonds issued by the Reich and sold to the German people during the war?
A: Yes, to a very large amount actually, the so-called war treasury bills.
Q: Those were bonds by which the Reich borrowed money from the German citizens?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know the amount that was issued? The total amount?
A: No, I don't.
Q: You don't know how many billion Reich marks were borrowed?
A: All I heard was that the Reich debts towards the end amounted to about 55 to 60 billions. But that is only private knowledge on my part.
Q: And did the Reich pay interest to the German people for that money?
A: Yes, there were treasury bills of 4-½ per cent, 4 per cent, and 3-½ per cent.
BY DR. BERGOLD (for the defendant Klein).
Q: Witness, can you remember that in December 1943, the defendant Klein paid a visit to you and can you tell us why he called on you?
A: I was then with the police when Klein called on me one day in the office and asked me to listen to him. I could not think what he wanted because I had no official relations whatever with Klein.
Q: What was the impression he made on you?
A: He seemed to be in a desperate frame of mind which I noticed and I asked him why he was so excited, and he told me that his sister -- I believe she was called Frau von Ruppert -- and her husband had been arrested by the Secret State Police and they had to expect to be tried for high treason before a People's Court.
Q: Now did he request you to do something?
A: Yes. He asked me to help his sister and her husband.
Q: Were you not slightly surprised that he didn't turn to Pohl and didn't you ask him why he didn't go to the defendant Pohl first?
A: Yes. I asked him that and he told me that he didn't have the courage to go to Pohl with a thing like that.
Q: What did you do thereupon?
A: Well, I told him there wasn't very much I could do. If I could do anything at all, I could go to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, who was the chief of the Gestapo, but I immediately told him that I had no contact with Mueller and that therefore I was unable to say that I could do anything about it.
Q: Did you do that? Did you go and see Meuller, and what was the result?
A: I took the time. I went to Mueller and saw him. Mueller was very reserved and told me that it was a very serious case which concerned the Ruppert family, and that there was little that he could do; especially, the brother-in-law, who was an active officer, there was absolutely nothing he could do because he would face a sentence by the Wehrmacht.
I would like to say briefly that Major von Ruppert committed suicide before he appeared before the People's Court, which Klein told me shortly afterward.
Q. Did you do anything for the sister of Klein?
A. Yes, after a great deal of trouble Mueller was somewhat highhanded and very reserved, as I mentioned before. He promised me that he could do something for the sister.
Q. And did you hear anything that happened?
A. Klein wrote me a letter thanking me that his sister need not appear before a People's Court and was sentenced to a concentration camp.
Q. Was that the end of the business?
A. On the whole, yes. Mueller phoned me one day, was extremely furious because he alleged that Klein had somehow got access to the files by misrepresentation, and he threatened to get Klein involved in this because he said Klein had such intimate contact with his sister that it was entirely possible for Klein himself to be involved in the charge of defeatism. Perhaps it is interesting here in this connection that I told Mueller while Klein is a member of the Allgemeine SS he is an officer in the Allgemeine SS. Whereupon Mueller told me to my surprise, "I couldn't care less. As Chief of the Gestapo I'm not interested; couldn't care less." That is why I remember that.
I asked him again and told him that Ruppert's wife be treated decently in the concentration camp, which he promised me, and I heard nothing further.
Q. Did you hear anything about the famous family responsibility with reference to Klein?
A. Yes, I did indeed. Mueller threatened Klein, threatened to report all this to the Reichsfuehrer SS, and on the basis of the law of family responsibility in the SS Klein might well be involved in the trial and sentenced.
Q. To speak quite generally, was it your impression that Mueller could make independent decisions in this matter? Or whether he had to consult Himmler about this?
A. In this case of Klein he told me he could not make independent decisions because, first of all, Klein was a member of the SS and he, therefore, had to go right to the Reichsfuehrer - whether he wanted to or not. And, secondly, because Frau von Ruppert's husband had been an active officer, for which reason a report had to reach the Reichsfuehrer SS.
Q. When was the second conversation you had with Mueller?
A. That was much later.
Q. Was it in January 1944, perhaps?
A. Yes, I think it might. I told Mueller if he couldn't do anything I myself would go and see the Reichsfuehrer SS, and that impressed him apparently. And he really did something.
Q. Did you hear anything about the fact that Frau von Ruppert was liberated by the Allied armies in the concentration camp?
A. I never saw Klein after that, but he told me in person here that his sister was well and happy and had been liberated by the Allied troops.
DR. BERGOLD: Thank you.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: What had she been charged with, Dr. Bergold? What had Klein's sister been charged with?
DR. BERGOLD: She was accused of having made defeatist remarks about the armed forces - which meant treason. She was against the Party.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: And was it suggested that perhaps the defendant may have made similar remarks?
DR. BERGOLD: Yes, this witness said so just now.
WITNESS: Yes, quite.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Defendant, before Mr. Robbins starts, it isn't quite clear to us why you left the WVHA. That was in 1943?
A. In June of 1943 the Chief of Staff of the Regular Police phoned me and asked if I would like to replace the administrative director of the Regular Police.
For the reason which I mentioned before, I immediately said yes, although I did not improve my position thereby. On the contrary, from an Office Group chief I merely became an Office chief, and also I had to wear a police uniform which was not as highly esteemed as that of the Waffen SS.
Q. Well, without saying too much about it, tell us again your reasons for wanting to make the change.
A. There are two reasons, Mr. President. One was as I said that the WVHA and particularly in my presence the Reichsfuehrer had forced us to look after properties which had been taken from people without compensation. That, it seemed to me, was against our principles. And the second reason was, Mr. President, that the atmosphere as such, when Office Group D was joined to us, that is, all the concentration camps, I disliked, because I had to say I, as deputy of Pohl, could not remain untouched by these things. I reserved myself, and I retired as much as I could - which can be seen from the documents. That is, as far as concentration camp matters were concerned, I did not appear on the stage at all.
Q. And you never went back to the WVHA after that?
A. No, Mr. President.
Q. You stayed with the police until the end of the war?
A. Mr. President, from the first of October 1944 I was in two positions. I remained administrative chief with the police, and simultaneously I became chief of the administrative office of the army, so that I had a twin task to look after from the autumn of 1944 onwards.
Q. I remember your testifying about that. And you had no further connection with Amtsgruppe D after you left the WVHA?
A. No, I had nothing to do with it at all.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, what was the exact date on which you withdrew from the WVHA?
A. On 1 September 1943. I was introduced to my office as Police Administrative Chief in a place called Unter den Linden.
Q. After that date, 1st September 1943, the defendant Fanslau did not immediately become chief of Amtsgruppe A. Is it true that you continued until Fanslau assumed the duties of Amtsgruppe A to advise the members of Amtsgruppe A, and to carry out a part of the functions as chief of Amtsgruppe A?
A. I advised him, yes; on the basis of my experience of many years in military administration it is quite obvious that a man like myself could not burn his bridges from one day to the next. I knew the personnel intimately. I had known these men for years, and when promotions or transfers were concerned I always advised Fanslau. But I no longer exercised my actual office in the WVHA. I had, so to speak, no longer a desk in the WVHA. As I so testified before, Hans Loerner came and saw me a few times also in order to obtain advice from me in the financing of the Allgemeine SS after which I had looked for many years and in general budget questions for the troops. That was the very small function, really.
Q. And then until what date did you continue to exercise this function of advisor?
A. I believe I could not give you an exact date there; by and large I think the position was that slowly contact decreased until - especially as I was completely overworked in the police office - I had to lose contact altogether in the end. But I would like to emphasize that when I deputized for Pohl I discontinued that activity on the 1st of September 1943 because Georg Loerner was used for that after that date.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let us get the approximate time if you can't get the exact time as when he did stop in the advisory capacity.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. That advisory capacity continued until Fanslau took over the job as chief of Amtsgruppe A, did it not?
A. It must have been roughly in the spring of 1944 when the contact decreased so completely, especially when Fanslau started. There were personal contacts in as much as the police - that part of the police which is housed in barracks - had trained its administrative officers on the same principles as the Waffen SS. In that respect alone there remained contact between Fanslau and myself, quite generally. That is to say, we would always discuss questions of training. He, very frequently, helped me out with teachers and school books, and so forth, and I, in turn, gave him advise concerning the training of his officers.
Q. And those functions continued even after Fanslau became office chief? Did I understand you correctly?
A. Those functions? Yes.
Q. You were a member of the NSDAP, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall what date you joined the Party?
A. On 1 January 1933.
Q. Do you remember your Party number?
A. My number was one million and some. I believe, 1,780,000, or something like that.
Q. You joined the SS in May 1932 and -
A. On 1 May 1932.
Q. And you became a full-time SS man in April 1933, is that correct?
A. Yes, Indeed.
Q. You made application for that position?
A. I did not apply in writing. I went there and volunteered.
Q. You were not drafted into that position?
A. No. No. No, I volunteered.
Q. And at that time you were assigned to the Vervaltungsamt-SS, is that correct -- in April 1933?
A. Yes, on 1 April 1933.
Q. 1934 or 1933?
A. 1934, I am so sorry, 1933, of course, 1933.
Q. Was Pohl a member of the Verwaltungsant at that time?
A. No.
Q. And you preceded Pohl as a member of the Verwaltungsamt?
A. Yes.
Q. You then are the oldest administrative SS official among the defendants, are you not?
A. I am not quite sure about that, if I am the oldest. Some of my comrades perhaps joined at the same time as I.
Q. Do you remember which ones?
A. I believe my comrade, Georg Loerner joined at the same time with me and became a full-time SS man. Our official position was very small at that time. We were paid two Marks a day.
Q. I would like to get a brief description of the Verwaltungsamt. I think up to this point the picture is not very clear on the record. The Verwaltungsamt was divided into five departments, was it not, V-I, V-II, V-III, V-IV, and V-V.
A. At what time do you mean sir?
Q. 1934. I believe V-V was not a separate Amt. at that time. There was V-I through V-IV --- 1934?
A. Yes, I think that is what we called it at the time.
Q. Now, V-I, was your Amt. was it not?
A. Yes, I was that myself.
Q. That was concerned with budgetary matters and I think you described that in sufficient detail. The Defendant Fanslau was also connected with that Amt., was he not?
A. Later on.
Q. What date?
A. I believe that was in 1937 or 1938.
Q. And in what connection was he a member of V-I. What were his duties? What was his official position? Was he Chief of that Amt?
A. I believe that the extent of this office is being misjudged.
Q. Excuse me. I think you have described the functions very well of the office last week. Now I am only asking you what official position in that Amt. did Fanslau hold, this is V-I of the Verwaltungsamt SS.
A. He was a Main Department Chief.
Q. Now do you recall what V-II did? That was concerned with auditing, was it not?
A. Yes, as the word says, that office at that time, V-II, took care of the auditing for what we called the Special Task Troops, the Verfuegungstruppe, and also for Party expenses.
Q. And the Chief of that office was Vogt, V-o-g-t?
A. Vogt came very much later.
Q. On what date?
A. In 1937, he came as an assistant official, not as a chief.
Q. He was never Chief of V-II?
A. Not before the war, as far as I know.
Q. And V-III, that was concerned with clothing and equipment, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And Georg Loerner was the Chief of this Amt?
A. He was Chief of that Main Office, yes.
Q. And V-IV, do you recall that a person by the name of Koeberlein was in charge of this Amt?
A. Koeberlein, yes.
Q. And do you recall at what date the office, V-V, Building Matters, was established in the Verwaltungsamt-SS?
A. That must have been in 1935, after the Special Task Troops had become active.
Q. I think you told us that Hans Loerner joined the administrative organization at an early date. Was he a member of the Verwaltungsamt-SS?
A. He was a member of the administrative office of the SS Main Sector of Munich and later on of Nurnberg. In Nurnberg he stayed until the outbreak of the war. These SS Main Sectors, these administrations were the administrative authority immediately below the Administrative Office. Their competence was a provincial one.
Q. And the Office, V-V, that I have just mentioned, that was headed by the Defendant Eirenschmalz?
A. For a certain period of time, yes. As I said before, he quarreled with Pohl and had to retire for a long time.
Q. When the Construction Office of the WVHA, Amtsgruppe C, was established, the Defendant Eirenschmalz was Chief of that office for a time, was he not?
A. Chief of Office C-VI?
Q. No, "C", of the entire Amtsgruppe.
A. That he was never. He was never Chief of that. He was only Deputy Chief on paper. He was never Chief, I am sure. That was always Kammler.
Q. Do you not recall telling your interrogator at an interrogation that Eirenschmalz was at one time Chief of Amtsgruppe C, that he preceded Kammler?
A. No, not of Office Group C of the WVHA, because at that time it was not called Office Group C; it was entirely differently organized at that time.
Q. He was Chief of the Construction Office of the Main Office, Building and Construction, was he not?
A. No, it is impossible that he was that, because at that time he was with me and with me he was in charge of V-V, that is to say, the administration of the construction of the Waffen-SS.
Q. Will you tell us what you meant when you said that Eirenschmalz was Chief of the Construction Office and preceded Kammler in that position?
A. I must have made a mistake there; Eirenschmalz, or, I am sorry, Kammler, was there at a time when the WVHA was founded. Therefore, it's impossible for Standartenfuehrer Eirenschmaltz to have been chief in the presence, as it were, of Oberfuehrer Kammler. I must have made a mistake in my interrogation at that time, because Eirenschmatz was Chief of the Main Department V-V, in my office. I do not know how that error came about.
Q. Turning to another matter now, Witness, do you have Book XVII in front of you there?
A. I haven't got Book XVII with me here. No, I am afraid I have not got it.
Q. I think I can read this to you. It is quite short. Do you recall the document which is Klein's report to Pohl, made on the 14th day of May, 1942, concerning Wewelsburg and the financial situation there and Klein's statement that the money needed was supplied by an interim credit of 200,000 Reichsmarks by SS-Brigadefuehrer Frank?
A. I cannot recall this fact at all today. I would admit it at once and I do admit, because it must have been an interim credit of 200,000 Marks which I had asked for until the credit negotiations of Wewelsburg and Klein had come to a result with the Reichsbank, but I am unable to say today whether these 200,000 Marks were paid back immediately, or whether it was left open for a period of time. I am quite unable to say anything about that.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q You recall seeing the reference in the document, Document NO-547? You don't recall seeing the document in Court in the document books?
A I don't know which document you mean, 547. What document book is it in?
Q It's in Book 17 and it contains what I just read to you. You don't recall reading that in the document books here in Court?
A No, I didn't take any notice of it, at all.
Q While you were the deputy to Pohl, can you give us some idea of how often you conferred with him?
A That was quite irregular. Sometimes there were six or eight weeks intervals until we saw each other again, and sometimes we'd meet twice a week. That depended entirely on the tasks which reached me concerning difficulties in financing the troops. In most cases I discussed personnel questions with Pohl because that was our biggest worry.
Q Did you ever discuss the question of labor allocation with him?
A No, I had nothing to do with that labor allocation.
Q As his deputy you never talked to him; you never had one single conversation about allocation of inmate labor?
A I know that it sounds improbable, but what useful purpose would have been served by a conference? After all, labor allocation-
Q Excuse me. I just asked you the question. You can answer it yes or no; and you've answered it no. Did you ever at any time talk to him about food for concentration camp inmates?
A No, I had no reason to do that.
Q Did you ever talk to him about the number of inmates in concentration camps?
A I was not informed about the number of inmates.
Q You weren't interested as his deputy in any of these problems about labor of inmates or the food that they got and the Court No. II, Case No. 4.number of inmates in camps?
You had no interest in these matters?
A I was not his deputy in these matters.
Q Did you ever discuss the so-called wages for inmates with Pohl?
A That is a question in which I was interested from the point of view of the budget; and I believe that I must have discussed it with Pohl.
Q Do you remember discussing it with Pohl?
A Yes.
Q What did you talk to him about? What was the substance of the conversations?
A The Reich Minister of Finance insisted at that time, in 1942, that for each inmate who would be working, no matter whether in private industry or in the SS industry, he would be paid back a sum of money which roughly corresponded to his expenses for billets, feeding, and clothing of the inmates.
Q Were such charges made for the use of inmate labor? Were such so-called wages charged for the use of inmate labor?
A The question of whether the inmates themselves were paid was not with me. I could not decide that question.
Q You don't understand the question. I didn't ask you about what the inmates received. There was a charge made to the SS industries and to private films for the use of inmate labor, and this was euphemistically called "wages". It was turned over to the WVHA and ultimately to the Reich. Now, I'm asking you, who in the WVHA handled these funds?
A The term "wages" was not mentioned in this connection. As far as Office Group W is concerned, what is received from the industries for the inmates and the charge it made for the inmates was not my business as a man under the Reich. All I had to do was to see to it that a certain sum of money would be transferred to the Reich for the inmates.
Q And that was your business?
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
A Yes, because the Reich spent money on the inmates, which is quite clear.
Q Which of your subordinates in Amtsgruppe A assisted you in this task?
A I didn't need any assistance there. That question I discussed myself because I myself had been ordered by the Reich Ministry of Finance to deal with these things; and this request by the Reich Ministry of Finance was well executed by me.
Q Didn't Vogt make any check on this whatever?
A Vogt only had the task of finding out the sums which were in the Treasury for these charges and put them on the annual balance sheet together with A-II.
Q Now, you were just speaking about the SS industries, who had the same position with regard to private industries. Who handled the funds which constituted the charges made for use of inmate labor in private industries? Was this handled in the same way?
A I should like to give you a small example here, if I may. A concentration camp lent people to an aircraft factory. The officer in charge of labor allocation in the concentration camp concerned kept a list of figures of the inmates and the working hours. Previous to that he negotiated with the aircraft factory as to how much would have to be paid for each individual inmate. At the end of the month the officer in charge of labor allocation would send his list about the figures of inmates and the wages agreed on, also on the agreed compensation, to the administrative officer of the concentration camp. The administrative officer in turn sent a bill to the aircraft factory. The aircraft factory paid the bill, and the money went to the Reich treasury.
Q When you say this was handled by the labor allocation officer, you are referring to a person under the supervision of Amtsgruppe D?
A Quite so.
Q And that specifically refers to Amtsgruppe D-II; is that Court No. II, Case No. 4.correct?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what function the defendant Sommer played in this procedure?
A No, I didn't know Sommer at all. I met him only here in Nurnberg.
Q Did you ever discuss with Pohl the question of construction on the matters dealt with by Amtsgruppe C?
A No.
Q In any case at all, in the case of any construction, after you became Chief of Amtsgruppe A, were you notified about construction matters that were carried on by Amtsgruppe C?
A Yes, I was informed in advance if they were exceptionally large building projects. That was the case when I drew up the budget for 1943 in 1942. In that budget from my point of view there were for the first and last time negotiations with the Reich Ministry of Finance about large building projects. That happened in the following manner-that the Reich Building Office, which was a sub-department in the Reich Ministry of Finance, through me sent the request that I should be told what large building project the SS planned for the coming year. That request I passed on to Kammler and asked Kammler to deal directly with the Chief of the Reich Building Office, who was Secret-Councillor Reichner.
Q While you were Chief of Amtsgruppe A, there were some rather large construction projects carried out in concentration camps; several concentration camps were built. Did you receive notification of this?
AAs I have told you before, Kammler negotiated directly with the Reich Building Office. As far as the concentration camps were concerned, it was a very peculiar state of affairs. In my opinion these were not large building projects in the way I have described it before. By large building projects the Reich Ministry of Finance meant Court No. II, Case No. 4.such buildings which were being erected massively, on land belonging to the Reich.