Q. I have only one question, witness. When did you say you entered the WVHA?
A. October, 1936.
Q. And you told us yesterday that in your civilian office you made no progress because you did not want to join the party?
A. Yes.
Q. But you had entered the SS.
A. Yes.
Q. How did it come about that you did not join the party, but the SS? Did you find the SS loss unpleasant, or what were the reasons; it would have been easier to enter the party and make good progress.
A. In my interrogation I have already explained that I joined the SS for the reasons of my profusion. In my dealings with the personnel chief of the WVHA I wasn't asked for membership of the party, I did not do anything about it; only after I joined the SS, I joined the party.
Q. That is right, witness, but that does not answer my question. You must have known about the ideology of the SS when you joined it, or did that play no part?
A. If you mean it that way, the way I regarded the SS, I have already said that in my interrogation, for the SS was the so-called fourth part of the Wehrmacht, a purely military organization which had nothing to do with politics.
Q. And what gave you this attitude -- your own knowledge?
A. Yes, my own knowledge, and that as regarded by the population, because we did not know it otherwise.
DR. HOFFMANN: I have nothing else.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I did not catch the word that the SS was a blank spot of the Wehrmacht -- what was that word?
A. The fourth part.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: I see.
EXAMINATION.
BY DR. VON STEIN: (Attorney for Defendant Eirenschmalz)
Q. Eirenschmalz was the Office Chief of the C-6, and had also to deal with preliminary checking of the department building. Your task included preliminary checking the expenses. I ask you now, witness, in these two parts, were there any points of contact between these two parts, or were they completely separated?
A. These OO's two spheres of activities were completely separated; there was no connection between the two.
DR. VON STEIN: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there no further examination by Defense Counsel? Apparently not. Mr. Robbins, you may proceed.
RE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, you say in your affidavit, which is in Document Book No. 1, Exhibit 8, that you were taken into the party on the 1st of April, 1938, and according to my notes you told us today that you were taken into the party in 1937. Suppose you tell us now when you really were taken into the party.
A. I do not remember the date exactly; I do not know.
Q. Well, it was a long way from 1937, wasn't it?
A. From April 1937 I was on leave from my office, and then I was not a party member.
Q. If I tell you that the Prosecution has in its possession your curriculum vitae in your own handwriting, which is a part of your 201 file, your personal records, with the SS, will that refresh your memory?
A. Yes. I don't know it by heart; it could, of course.
Q. Suppose I tell you that you say in that record, in your own handwriting, that you joined the party in April 1920; and that in 1921 you organized a party group in Dengeldorf. Does that help your recollection any?
A Mr. Prosecutor, that was no organization of the Party. At that time I was a member of an organization; was the Bund Bayern und Reich, and it was the Voelkische Block. That means the Nationalist Block and that was called the beginning of the Party. I myself came from the Army and I joined the Home Guard and took part -- I did not take part in general revolutionary movements only insofar as others took part in it, but that was not the Party in the ordinary sense of the word.
Q You don't deny that you took credit in your curriculum vitae for joining the Party in 1920 and for organizing a Party group in 1921, do you?
A I did not organize a party myself.
Q I didn't ask you that. I asked you if you denied that you stated in your curriculum vitae that you were a member of the Party in 1920 and that you organized a Party group in Dangeldorf in 1921? Do you remember that from your curriculum vitae?
A No, I do not remember that, but Mr. Prosecutor, this matter was organized by Gregor Strasser at that time, who was from Gengeldorf.
Q I didn't ask you if you were a member. I asked you if you denied that you took credit for it in your curriculum vitae? Do you now deny that that is in the document in your own handwriting?
A I cannot say it. I cannot speak about that at all.
Q All right. Suppose you tell us what this Party organization was and why you joined it and why it was that you couldn't remember about it when you were asked by your defense counsel?
A But I did not join the Party then. I would have had a membership card if I had done that.
Q You don't deny that you joined this Bund which was the predecessor of the Party, do you?
AAt that time it was Bund Bayern und Reich.
Q And it later became the Nazi Party, didn't it?
A Yes.
Q All right, let's go on to another point. Perhaps the existence of this curriculum vitae will help your memory some. You told us that you never belonged to the Allgemeine SS. Is your memory any better in that respect now?
A I was not a member of the general SS, the Allgemeine SS.
Q Do you deny that you say in your curriculum vitae that you joined the Allgemeine SS on the 1st of October 1936? Do you remember that in your curriculum vitae?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I joined the SS to take over a position provided for by the budget. This promotion it was on the 1st of October 1936, was not in accordance with a position provided in the budget. I never applied to join the Allgemeine SS.
Q Well, that's not what you say in your affidavit. You say in your affidavit: "On the 1st of April 1938 I was transferred to the SS. You don't say anything about '36 in your affidavit.
A Mr. Prosecutor, it was only the 1st of April 1938 that I joined. Until then I was an official and on the 1st of April 1938 I came to this position provided by the budget, and from 1936 I was on leave.
Q Well, let's just start from the beginning. When did you join the Waffen SS?
A To this position provided by the budget I came in 1938. To the WVHA, the Administration Office, I came in 1936. I think I seem to remember that was in October 1936.
Q Well, you joined the SS in 1936, didn't you, and you were given SS number 277081 in May 1936? Do you remember that?
A Yes, it was 277081.
Q It was May, 1936?
A I don't remember the date.
Q Well, what organization was that? That was the Waffen SS, wasn't it?
A Yes, Waffen SS, Special Task Troop.
Q Well, what did you mean in your affidavit when you say, "On the 1st of April 1938 I was transferred to the SS". You were already a member of the SS.
AAt that time I was taken over to a position provided by the budget and before that I was with the special task troop, and I never applied for employment in the general SS. I was a civil servant.
Q Well then, when you said in your affidavit you were transferred to the SS in April '38 you didn't mean you were transferred to the SS; you meant you were transferred from one position to another. Is that right?
A Yes, that is right.
Q Now, what about the Allgemeine SS? You say in your curriculum vitae in your own handwriting that you joined the Allgemeine SS on the 1st of October 1936, after having joined the Waffen SS in May, 1936. Do you have any recollection about that?
A Mr. Prosecutor, I have never applied for employment in the general SS because when I was employed in this special task troop, I didn't have to join the general -- the Allgemeine SS.
Q I didn't ask you that. I am just asking you if you ever belonged to the Allgemeine SS?
A No.
Q Did you ever make the statement in your curriculum vitae that you belonged to the Allgemeine SS?
A I do not remember.
Q Well, are you in the habit of making statements that aren't true in official documents? It looks to me like you could remember something like that.
A The curriculum vitae is so far back that I cannot remember what I have written in it.
Q You didn't tell us that you belonged to the SA either, did you? Suppose you give us some details on that. That goes back a long way. Your non-political activities, tell us about your non-political military activities in the SA.
A I did not join the SA then, but we all became Party members and we were employed in the SA Reserve.
Q What do you mean, you all became Party members? This is way back in 1933, the 1st of July, when you joined the SA, to help your recollection. Did you join the Party then?
A No.
Q Go ahead.
A The use in the SA Reserve was a forced measure, an emergency measure of the civil servants association who used every civil servant. Therefore, we came to the Reserve troop but that had nothing to do with entering the SA itself. I do not remember -- I never were a uniform and I never bought one.
Q Well, let me ask you a very simple question. Did you ever belong to the SA?
A No.
Q Did you ever make a statement in your curriculum vitae that you did belong to the SA?
A I do not remember, but I was in the SA Reserve three or four times.
Q You were in the SA Reserve?
A Yes, we were attached to it. I should like to say here, Mr. Prosecutor, I should like to add something here. In the end of 1933 I was operated on. It was a very complicated stomach operation and twothirds of my stomach was taken away. Before that I had been ill for a very long time. Any activity in the SA would have been impossible at that time. From October, 1933 I was in the hospital for five months, and for another year I could not indulge in any activities whatever. Therefore, activities in the SA Reserve -- I had to be there two or three times, it was impossible -- but a member of the SA itself as I conceived it. I have not been.
Q Well, when did you leave the SA?
A Well, I did not feel myself an SA member.
Q When did you leave the reserve of the SA? You never took any formal steps to sever yourself from that organization, did you?
A I think that must have been before my joining the SS.
Q What did you do? Did you resign from your reserve in the SA?
A Well, it wasn't so that I had a position, but we were used in the SA Reserve as far as it was necessary for blocking measures and such like; the name reserve implied that.
Q Now then, you say you were dismissed in February 1945. That isn't true, is it?
A The official who was dealing in the pay agency with this matter, Dr. Exner, certified this. My files were dealt with by him, my pension files, and at the beginning of April I was dismissed finally.
Q In April?
A Yes, in April.
Q That is not in February.
A But in February the dismissal files came to the office.
Q When did you take your last order from a superior in the WVHA?
A That must have been either in the end of March or the beginning of April.
Q Well, when did you get your last order as an office chief of the WVHA?
A That I cannot say.
Q Did you have anything to do with or did you know anything about the destruction of the files of Amtsgruppe A and the other Amtsgruppen in the WVHA?
A No.
Q Then this is the first time you have heard that, they were destroyed?
A In the Amtsgruppe A?
Q Yes in Amtsgruppe A.
A I was not in Berlin.
Q Well, you had files in your office?
A Yes.
Q Were they destroyed?
A My files were left there and came to the SS hospital in Hohenlychen which had an ambulance post there. There were barracks full of files.
Q And you don't know anything about the destruction of the files for Office A-IV? You don't know anything about that at all?
A When we left, the files were handed over. If the files were destroyed, Mr. Prosecutor, that must have been within the framework of the general destroying according to the law, because I had to keep to the regulation of the Reich Auditing Court as how far I could go with the files.
Q That doesn't answer my question. I asked you if you knew anything at all about the destruction of the files of Office A-IV. You haven't answered the question. Do you know anything about it, to your own knowledge?
A Yes. The files were destroyed but not because they should not come into the hands of the enemy but for merely office reasons.
Q Now let me direct your attention to the Verwaltungsamt for a moment. You were in charge of Office V-II for a time, were you not?
A No.
Q Well, what position did you hold in V-II?
A I was in V-II in charge of a department, an expert.
Q What department?
A I had to examine the VT.
Q During what period of time was this? VT -- that is a special task unit in the SS?
A Special task troops.
Q During what period of time was this?
A When I came to the administration office at that time the first office that was given to me was that. That was 1936.
Q You came to the Verwaltungsamt which was a precursor of the WVHA which was in 1936?
A Yes.
Q And when did you leave there?
A Middle of August, 1939.
Q And do I understand you to take the position that at no time during those three years when you were in office V-II of the Verwaltungsamt that you had anything to do with the auditing and checking of concentration camp records and the Death Head Units? You had nothing whatever to do with that?
A There is a possibility that I had to audit bills as a deputy for somebody else, but my own field was as I have already said yesterday the SS Special Task Troops.
Q I know what you said yesterday about your own assignment, but I am asking you if you carried on the auditing at any time of the accounts of concentration camps while you were in office V-II?
A I cannot say exactly, but there is a possibility that when somebody was sick or on leave I had to deputize for him.
Q Well, you remember doing that, don't you? It is not only a possibility?
A Yes, it is a possibility.
Q It is more than a possibility, isn't it? You remember it; it is certainty?
A No.
Q Well, who regularly handled the accounts in office V-II of the concentration camps?
A That was Hauptsturmfuehrer Heiter.
Q And he was under Moeckel? Moeckel?
A Moeckel.
Q Yes?
A. Moeckel.
Q Then when the Verwaltungsamt was dissolved and the Main Office Budget and Construction came into being, what connection did you have with this Main Office?
A With this Hauptamt Main Office I had no connections. They were at the same place, but any official channels there were none, because I was Department Chief of the Administration Office of the Waffen--SS.
Q Are you telling me that from August, '39, until February, '42, when the WVHA was brought into being that you had no contacts with wither the WVHA as opposed to the WVHA or the Main Office Budget and Construction? You had no contact with those main Offices?
A Neither with WVHA had I anything to do; that was administrative nor with the Office Budget and Construction which was after all a matter of the Budget Office. I was in the Administration Office of the Waffen-SS in the auditing department.
Q That was subordinate to one of these two Main Offices, was it not?
A The Administration Office of the Waffen-SS was under the Fuehrungshauptamt Main Operational Office.
Q And did Pohl have any connection with that?
A No.
Q Well, what position were you holding in December, 1941?
A In December, 1941, I was still in the audit department as the chief of the department.
Q And was that subordinate to the defendant Frank? Is that the Administration Office that Frank was in charge of?
A Yes.
Q And you were subordinate to Frank from August, '39, until the organization of the WVHA.
A From October, 1939, until the WVHA was erected.
Q Now wasn't there a time during this period which you worked for Kaindl in the Inspectorate of the concentration camps? Don't you recall your assistance to Kaindl?
A No, I cannot remember having been an assistant of Kaindl.
Q You don't remember having a desk in his headquarters?
A Now when should there have been?
Q Between the period of 1939 when the Verwaltungsamt was dissolved and prior to 1942 when the WVHA was erected.
A No, I had no desk in Kaindl's office. I was in the Administration Office of the Waffen-SS in Berlin.
Q Did you have any contacts with Kaindl at all?
A I had no office relation with Kaindl of any kind. I know him from Munich. It may have been that he talked to me on occasions or asked me questions, but I don't remember having any contacts with Kaindl, at least not any office contacts.
Q Did you have any official or business discussions with Kaindl at all?
A No.
Q And then in January, 1942, you came to the WVHA when it was organized?
A Yes.
Q I would like to deal for a moment with your functions as Chief of A-IV. It is true, is it not, that an auditing or accounting office of an administrative office such as the WVHA serves two purposes. One is the administrative control which you have described in detail, that is, to prepare a report for a higher accounting agency; and the second purpose of such an office is to give the administrative offices themselves an insight into the financial and economic organization and status of the respective offices. Is that the ordinary function of an auditing or accounting office?
A Mr. Prosecutor, in long sentences we spoke yesterday about the tasks of the auditing office. The auditing office, in fact, during all the time it existed as Office A-IV, dealt mainly with auditing and examining of the treasury court. The liaison office with other offices, that was not even necessary. What would they want of us?
Q I understand what the main purpose was, but you submitted as one of your exhibits an extract from a textbook by an expert who says that a second function of an accounting or auditing office is to give the administrative office as a whole -- to give the chief of the administrative office an insight into the finances of the office. That was one of the functions of your office, wasn't it?
A Mr. Prosecutor, you must remember about our regulations as existed in peacetime. At that time it was, just as you told us, but in wartime, in 1942, it was not so at all, and I did not regard the task as such. I couldn't do so. I couldn't have dealt with it as there was not a staff for this.
Q. Do you mean to say that neither you nor any of your subordinates were ever asked to report to anyone in the WVHA about the financial status of an office or a unit or an agency of the Waffen-SS?
A. I don't know, of course, whether one of my subordinates gave such information at one time or another. Mr. Prosecutor, you must imagine that the keeping files involved -- files and books which were submitted only afterwards to the auditing office --. If really one of these offices needed information, it is possible that the office asked for it. That is part of the general routine.
Q. You know it is not only possibly, you know that was a part of the regular routine of your office, wasn't it, to supply other offices with a financial report, or various agencies of the Waffen-SS? That was not an irregular happening?
A. No, that was not my task.
Q. Did you ever report on the balance of accounts of an agency of the Waffen-SS to anyone other than to the auditing court?
A. No.
Q. So all of the reports that you ever made as Chief of Office A-IV were made to the accounting court, is that what I understood you to say?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, mainly I had to write my own reports to the treasuries which were examined and audited. The auditing court received no information and no reports from me, but in person discussions the whole field and the whole activity of auditing was dealt with, and on that occasion, on these occasions, the notes made by the auditors were made known.
Q. And they were made known to other offices in the WVHA weren't they?
A. No.
Q. They were not made known to anyone in the WVHA?
A. If it was in no direct connection with a particular office then of course not.
Q. Well, did anyone in the WVHA ever receive any of the reports that you made to the auditing court?
A. I supplied no information, I gave no reports to the auditing court, on the whole. I would like to draw your attention to it, Mr. Prosecutor, that in the WVHA the auditing court had an office.
Q. I am just trying to find out this. Did your office in any way serve this second function which your expert says is a formal function of an accounting office,namely to give the administrative office itself some understanding about the financial status of its agencies? Did you have any conversations with anyone in the WVHA about the financial status of any agency under the Waffen-SS?
A. No.
Q. Now, when the auditing court waived a preliminary audit or an agency, as you say they sometimes did, and the sole audit of that agency was carried out by the auditing courts wasn't it your function to advise with the agency in the preparation for the audit by the auditing court?
A. As department chief of course it was my duty to make the auditors acquainted with the field.
Q. Let me ask you this, in 1942, as an example, tell us when the books for the Waffen-SS were ordinarily - for the agencies of the WaffenSS were ordinarily closed? Was this quarterly, semi-annually, or annually?
A. At that time in three months.
Q. Four times a year. Then these agencies prepared balance sheets and statements of income and expenses?
A. Mr.Prosecutor, this kind of auditing does not edit any balance sheets. Her it is just a matter of submission of the auditing books, bills, income, and bills of expenses. A balance sheet or a summarizing in any way does not exist there.
Q. All right, a balance sheet did not exist. You had a statement of income and expenses, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You had the vouchers, the bills which supposedly were actually paid?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, were there any other books in the auditing procedure given yourself or your subordinates when you carried out a spot check?
A. I have already said the cash books and the bills only.
Q. When these audits were made, what was the usual procedure, did you go to the agency, or did the agency send its books to you?
A. These books were not submitted to me generally speaking, only if the auditing there were mistakes which were discovered. The auditor had to come to me and speak to me, and the proofs and bills were used for this. Generally I did not deal with the auditing myself.
Q. When you say an auditor came to you and spoke to you, you mean one of your subordinates in Office A-IV?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever make checks yourself on any of these agencies in person?
A. I did not understand , sir.
Q. Did you ever audit any of the books of the Waffen-SS in person when you -
A. Yes, that happened when I went -- came to a place where there was a treasury.
Q. Well, you referred us yesterday to a regulation of the Reich Code which is from the Reich Treasury Regulations, Boft Exhibit No. 4, Article 89. Do you remember that there it says the auditor is not permitted to delegate the examination of the balance in hand to one of the officials appointed for his assistance. So when it came to the auditing of treasuries and the auditing of cash accounts, you had to do that personally, didn't you?
A. I should ask you if you could give me the figures again? Is it the Reich Treasury Regulation?
Q. This is Exhibit No. 4, Document 4, do you have that?
A. Yes.
Q. Article 89, Sub paragraph 2.
A. Mr. Prosecutor, here this is an occasion of a special work task.
It means auditing of the cash on hand. I carried out these measures in the Action Lublin, auditing of the cash on hand. That means the counting of the moneys on hand to be dealt with by the auditor himself. That means only the auditing of the cash account, whether it is there, and he has to count the money himself.
Q. Well, this does not deal with special or extraordinary audits. On the contrary, this is contained in Part II of the law which deals with ordinary audits, and Part III, which deals with extraordinary audits follows this article which I read. This was the ordinary procedure, wasn't it?
A. Extraordinary audits of treasuries by audits out of the ordinary we mean those audits which happen suddenly without previous notice. There are the general audits which are those which are carried out by the local authorities monthly after announcement to that effect, and then there are the extraordinary audits which happen suddenly in the agencies without previous announcement, which is called Kassenauf-sicht.
Q. This article teals with the regular period. The law says, "Ordinary audits"which require the chief auditor to audit the cash amounts personally, and you told us yesterday that the reason you had to count the cash in Lublin was because of this provision of the law. Now, apparently this provision applies not only to extraordinary audits or surprise audits such as in lublin, but also, according to the working of the law, to ordinary, regular audits, isn't that true?
A. Every audit has to be dealt with according to these points.
MR. ROBBINS: Would this be a convenient time to recess?
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1:45.
(A recess was taken until 1345 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 17 June 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: This Tribunal is again in session.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, with regard to your curriculum vitae there is one question that may not be exactly clear. You don't claim, do you, that you were drafted into the SS?
A. No.
Q. You weren't forced to join?
A. No.
Q. Now, I ask you, witness, if you recall having visited the concentration camp Dachau?
A. I was not in Dachau concentration camp.
Q. You never visited Dachau?
A. I have never visited the concentration camp, only the camp where the troops were garrisoned, the units called "Deutschland".
Q. But you were never on the inside of the camp?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever on the inside of any concentration camp in Germany?
A. No.
Q. You at no time ever visited a concentration camp?
A. No.
Q. Although you had the job of auditing the accounts of the camp and you were charged with the responsibility of personally handling the cash accounts, you at no time ever went yourself personally to a concentration camp, is that right?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I believe there is one point here which is not quite clear. I did not have to audit the cash because when the WVHA was established that task was transferred to the agencies on the medium level. They had to audit the cash in the camps; first the head of the administration had to audit the monthly cash balances. Special audits had to be done by the chief of Office Group D. I had nothing to do any longer with auditing of cash.
When the local bills were audited in a camp, that was not auditing the cash. The paragraph today about the cashin-hand concerned only the cash involved in a special auditing action. That had nothing to do with the auditing of the actual cash.
As far as I know, no local auditing of cash was carried out, but if actually one auditing had taken place, this would have been done by my auditors, or later on in the garrison administration which were outside the concentration camp administrations.
Q. Well, you told us yesterday that you had the job of spot-checking the accounts of the concentration camps, and just before noon you told us that this article which I was reading to you from the Reich Budget Code applied to all checking.
How is it that it didn't fall to you to check the cash of these accounts? Just tell us who it was who did do that.
A. The cash was audited by the head of the administration of the concentration camp.
Q. And you audited the books of the administration. You told us that yesterday.
A. I audited the books of the garrison treasury.
Q. And you told us yesterday - if necessary, I will read it to you from the transcript - that you audited the accounts of the administration of the camp.
A. I audited only the accounting of the treasury. I had nothing to do with the administration because the administration consisted of three or four departments: the treasury department, the food department, the billeting department, and the clothing department.
It was my duty only in the treasury department to audit the bills and vouchers - not to audit the actual cash itself.
Q. Well, I am not going to argue with you about what you said yesterday. The record will speak for itself on that. Now let me ask you if you were ever given the job of checking on the black market in the concentration camps in connection with the PX for the inmates.
A. No.
Q. Were you ever given the job of checking on the black market which the camp commandants were operating, with selling items which were manufactured in the concentration camps?
A. No, that was not my task.
Q. You know who Conrad Morgen was, witness? Do you know that he was given the job of investigating corruption in the concentration camps?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know of a charge that he made against you that you were acting as Pohl's tool to cover up the black market activities in the concentration camps? Did you hear about that charge?
A. I know that document. Morgen's affidavit is a libelous statement. Never, at any time, did I have the task of checking on the PX cash boxes or the cash of the black market, or anything else outside the Reich treasury. That was up to the officials there. That was a task of the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, but not of the auditing office or the preliminary auditing office. We did not have the authority even to audit their books. These were private funds of the troops.
Q. Witness, I don't think you have seen the affidavit of Morgen that I hold in my hand. But first let me ask you if you didn't hear of the charge by Morgen at the time during the war that you were acting as Pohl's agent to cover up black market activities. You didn't hear of that during the war?
A. No.
Q. I would like to read you just a sentence from Morgen's affidavit, which is Document NO-1907, and see if you can give us any details as to this. He says that "Vogt was the top chief of the Investigation Department of the WVHA and had charge of the examination of concentration camps. He worked with Pohl together under cover. I should also like to add that Vogt availed himself of his official position to obtain all possible personal advantages for himself. As an example, in the occupied territories he purchased huge quantities of goods, and then profited in illicit trade."