Q Did you ever hear what happened to them in BergenBelsen?
A I do not even know whether they went to BergenBelsen, or what happened to them.
Q Who was the SS doctor in the North Camp?
A Dr. Gremius.
Q Now, can you tell us anything about the nationalities of the inmates working in Ohrdruf?
A There were many nationalities there: Hungarian Jews, Polish Jews, Jugoslavs, Greeks, Russians, and Italians.
Q Were there some French there?
A Not very many but there were some Frenchmen.
Q Were there any prisoners of war?
A Yes; Russian prisoners of war.
Q Did you ever hear that actually what they were constructing at Ohrdruf was a headquarters for the Fuehrer?
A No, we were told that underground factories would be constructed.
Q Now, Dr. Lauber, can you tell us approximately how many inmates died in the hospital in the North Camp during the period that you were there?
A In the North Camp, between the middle of January up to the beginning of April, there died - according to my estimation - three to four thousand people. Then another two thousand were sent to what was described as "recreation" and that 2,000 add up to about 5,000. Until the middle of January, whenever the commanders left the parade ground, there remained on the parade ground, roughly, about ten to twelve dead each day; and in the evening when the commanders came back. And about twenty each day were loaded on those trucks and I - as the nurse at the beginning of the camp - and the nurses of the blocks had to know how many had died, and had to go to the mortuary and identify the people in their blocks because the SS people had to know that for their roll call.
Q Can you state what clothing was given to the inmates in Ohrdruf?
A The inmates in Ohrdruf were given wooden shoes, trousers, and a jacket - nothing else at all. That was in the middle of winter. Although the prisoners worked throughout the night, they worked in those clothes. I, myself, worked in a detachment in a Kommando for three weeks, building a tunnel.
Q What food was given to the inmates?
A In the morning we were given black coffee and bread. Sometimes it was given only in the morning, sometimes in the evening, about 300 or 250 grams of bread; twice a week we were given additional bread. Twenty grams of muffin or a bit of sausage, or when there was no sausage, we were given jam - a minute portion of jam. When we returned from our work in the evening we were given some soup; sometimes it was beet soup, sometimes it was potato soup. One could almost always call it water.
Q Is the name Dr. Pook familiar to you, witness?
A Dr. Pook? I heard the name Dr. Pook mentioned once. The chief doctor of our outside hospital told us Dr. Greumius was with the Obersturmbannfuehrer or something--I don't know the ranks. In any case it was the dentist in the camp, and he said: "Teeth must not be treated--only extracted; and no anaesthesia must be used."
Q Now, can you tell us what happened to Ohrdruf at the end of the war?
A Yes; on or about the second of April we heard the American Army guns and we were told that the American Army had reached the town, and we were certain that the Germans would leave us behind. I, for instance, worked in a hut where there were about 400 people ill with typhus. Many of them were unconscious; they had very high temperatures. And in other huts there were also grievously ill people, and we were quite certain that we would be left behind because there is no sense in transporting dangerously ill people to various places; that would be a great danger, and we were quite certain that we would be left behind. Suddenly--roughly at three o'clock in the afternoon--there came somebody with the camp Dr. Greumius, together with SS men and a man called Stuebitz, and they cried that all prisoners, whether they were ill or not, should assemble on the parade ground. People walked out and the ill were loaded on trucks. Those who were a little better were driven off on foot and they marched away in little groups guarded by SS men. We nurses and doctors remained behind to the last. Many people were hiding in various corners in the huts because they believed if they could last until the next day, the American Army would liberate them. These, the Camp Leader Steubitz and the Camp Dr. Greumius found and shot them down. I, myself, saw how Camp Leader Steubitz used an automatic machine-pistol and Dr. Greumius also had a gun in his hand; and they walked around the camp with other SS men, and I heard shots fired in the huts and between the huts. I saw groups of prisoners who were shot down. Then some of the ill--a small part of the ill persons, perhaps 30 or 40 or 50 persons, where it was not possible to load them on trucks--were also shot. We, the doctors and the nurses, left the camp last, and after about twenty minutes we saw an enormous fire, and we knew that the camp was already on fire.
Q Did you receive a tattoo when you entered Auschwitz?
A Yes; my number is 161374.
Q Will you show the Tribunal your tattoo, please?
A Certainly. (Witness rises, unbuttons shirt and bares forearm to Court)
Q Doctor, what are you doing now?
AAt the present time I am a so-called Camp Doctor in the UNRRA camp near Aschau, which is a children's camp.
Q And how many people are under your care there?
A Fourteen hundreds.
Q And what is your exact address, Doctor?
A Dr. Lauber, Bernhardt -
Q No; I mean the place where you live.
AAschau, near Milldorf; UNRRA Camp 1068.
MR. MCHANEY: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does anyone wish to cross-examine the witness?
DR. RATZ: (Counsel for the defendant Hermann Pook) BY DR. RATZ:
Q Witness, you said that you heard of Dr. Pook once, and you also said that there had been an order that teeth must not be treated but only extracted, and no anesthesia should be used. It was not quite clear who told you this, and whether it was an order. You referred to the Chief Doctor of the SS Hospital.
A Certainly. The chief doctor was a Pole; his christian name was Joseph, and he told me -- and he said that the doctors (I lived among them always) -- he said that Dr. Pook had given an order to other doctors that teeth must hot be treated--only extracted, and no anesthesia must be used. After all, the teeth could not be treated because there were no dentists stationed there.
Q There was no dentists stationed there?
A No, there was not.
Q Was there no dental station because the camp was so new a camp, or did you observe that there was no equipment there anyway so that patients could be treated?
A I was there from beginning to end, and throughout that period there was no dental equipment there at all.
Q Do you know whether a camp dentist was used in Nordhausen, was active in Buchenwald?
A Not that I know of.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there other cross-examination? If not, the witness will be excused, and the Tribunal will recess until onethirty.
(Witness excused)
MR. MCHANEY: If the Tribunal please, if I might again ask the indulgence of Defense Counsel, we have a man by the name of Bielsky who was an inmate of Auschwitz -- but who shall not testify to these matters as we have heard this morning. He will relate how he worked for some time in the gravel pit -- or sand pit -- which was run by the DEST industry in Auschwitz; and DEST was under the direction of the defendant Mummenthey. And we would like to call him this afternoon -if there is no objection. He will also testify, I may say quite frankly, that he observed the defendants Pohl and Bobermin in Auschwitz, during the year, I think, 1943 or '44.
DR. FROESCHMANN (Counsel for the defendant Mummenthey): I have had no opportunity to talk to my client about the witness. I must therefore contradict the idea that there should be this witness this afternoon.
MR. MCHANEY: Well, if there is a substantial objection to it we will hold him then until Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, could you not talk to your client between now and one-thirty sufficiently?
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, time would not be long enough.
THE PRESIDENT: Could you be ready by two o'clock. Could you have time to talk to him by two o'clock?
DR. FROESCHMANN: I am unable to say so before I have seen the defendant Mummenthey. I would like to ask to hear this witness on Monday.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I don't want to appear to take any advantage of you, but if you could consult with the defendant between now and two o'clock, perhaps you would be ready to hear his testimony then.
Do you care to do that?
DR. FROESCHMANN: I will certainly talk to the defendant, sir, of course. But if time is not sufficient to receive sufficient information -- in that case I would ask to follow my proposition.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Mr. McHaney, have you other proof to be offered this afternoon?
MR. MCHANEY: Yes, we can present that document from BOOK IV -Book IX.
THE PRESIDENT: I was under the impression that it was the witness -- or nothing.
MR. MCHANEY: No, no; however, it would be quite convenient to hear him this afternoon. He won't take a very long time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we will recess until two o'clock, instead of one-thirty.
MR. MCHANEY: Very well.
THE MARSHALL: The Tribunal is in recess until 1400 hours this afternoon.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 11 April 1947)
THE MARSHALL: All persons in the courtroom please take their seats The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
MR ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal I have Jelzy Bielski to call as a witness for the Prosecution.
DR. FORESCHMANN: Dr. Foreschmann for the defendant Mummenthey. May it please the Tribunal, during the noon recess I have talked with the defendant Mummenthey, and he is of the opinion that quite a number of questions have to be cleared in regard to the personal-technical relations on hand, and this will take up a more extended period of time, so this afternoon I would not be able to ask the appropriate questions on cross-examination. However, in order to assist the Prosecution in order to utilize the time of the Tribunal, I would agree that the witness who is examined this afternoon be examined, and that cross examination to take place on Monday morning. I believe that I will assist the Prosecution by doing so, so that they will be able to carry on.
DR GAWLIK: Dr Gawlik for the defendant Bobermin. I agree with the statement of my colleague, and would also agree that the witness be examined this afternoon and for the cross examination to take place Monday morning. However, I want to be taken into consideration that on the 8th April the Tribunal has made a ruling that before an interrogation of each witness on whatever subject, it is important in the event later if Prosecution has not informed us to what extent the testimony of this witness will be important as evidence in regard to the defendant Obermin. I, therefore, request the Tribunal to ask the Prosecution to state to what extent the defendant Obermin will be mentioned by this witness, in particular on the war crimes as indicated in the indictment, as well as crimes against humanity that will be charged against the defendant Bobermin by this witness.
MR. ROBBINS: I believe that McHaney stated before lunch that the witness would testify that he had seen Bobermin at the gas chamber at Auschwitz. As far as continuing his cross examination until on Monday, I think that will be all right, that is if the defense counsel at the end of his examination thinks it is necessary to hold him over until Monday. I believe, however, that defense counsel will find that is not necessary.
THE PRESIDENT. That, of course, if for the defense counsel to decide. Is this witness in custody of the American Forces here?
MR. ROBBINS: No, Your Honor, he is a voluntary witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does he lives in Nuernberg?
MR. ROBBINS: No, he lives in Weiden.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any difficulty in keeping him until Monday?
MR. ROBBINS: I think that can be arranged.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you satisfait, Dr. Foreschmann with the statement as to what the witness will testify to in reference to Bobermin?
DR. FROESCHMANN: Yes, then perhaps I would like the Prosecution to state if this is already evidence as to war crimes and crimes against humanity, if one defendant happened to stand near a gaz chamber?
THE PRESIDENT: That is a legal argument which we can indulge in after we heard the witness testimony. Perhaps after you have heard him there won't be any doubt in your mind that he is not guilty of any of them. We will reserve that argument. Very well, the witness may be called for examination in chief with the understanding that his cross examination will deferred until Monday if desired.
let the witness raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
THE WITNESS: I swear.
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
JELZI BIELSKI, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
Court No. II - Case No. 4
JERZY BIELSKI, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
THE PRESIDENT: Will the witness raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and the Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath)
THE PRESIDENT: You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Will you state your name, please?
A. My name is Jerzy Bielski.
Q. Will you spell that please?
A. J-E-R-Z-Y-- That is my first name. B-I-E-L-S-K-I
Q. And are you a Polish national?
A. Yes.
Q. And I understand you were born in Warsaw, Poland in April 1921; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You are single, a medical student, and you are now residing at Weiden; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did you attend a high school in Warsaw?
A. Yes.
Q. And have you attended a medical school in Warsaw?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you an inmate in the Auschwitz concentration camp?
A. Yes.
Q. During what period of time?
A. I was in Auschwitz from August 1942 until November 1944.
Court No. II - Case No. 4
Q. And from there where were you transferred?
A. I was sent to the concentration camps Oranienberg and Sachsenhausen.
Q. And subsequent to the end of the war you have been in DP camps?
A. Yes.
Q. At what places, please?
A. I was at Bremen, and then Coburg, and from Coburg I finally came to Weiden.
Q. And have you applied to UNRRA to be returned to your native land, Poland?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And you are waiting now to be transferred?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Do you have a serial number on your arm that you received at Auschwitz, please?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you show that number to the Tribunal?
A. (The witness complied.)
Q. It is number 66423?
A. That is correct.
Q. In Auschwitz, what kind of work were you assigned to do?
A. First of all, I was in the construction detachment. I was assistant laborer with the electrical detachment.
Q. And during the year 1944 were you assigned to work in a sand pit at Auschwitz?
A. Yes. In the spring of 1944 I was working in a sand pit at Auschwitz.
Q. And what was the name of that sand pit?
A. It was called after Hauptscharfuehrer Pallisch. The sand pit was located next to the villa.
Court No. II - Case No. 4
Q. And was there a building at the sand pit at which there was a nameplate of an industrial concern?
A. Yes. It was a structure built of wood, and on the sign was written "Deutsche Erd und Stein worke".
Q. And what kind of work were you doing at the sand pit?
A. I helped to load the wagons, and then we had to push these carts.
Q. Was there some particular reason why you were assigned to the sand pit?
A. Yes, this was done to me as a disciplinary measure.
Q. And what had you done to be disciplined?
A. In the concentration camp Auschwitz, in Block 15, during this time, in a search of our block officials of the Political Department found three Polish books and several Polish journals which I had managed to obtain. That is why I was disciplined by the Political Department by being given punitive work in the sand pit.
Q. About how many inmates were working in this sand pit?
A. I worked there for two weeks. Approximately 150 to 155 inmates worked in the sand pit at that time.
Q. Will you describe to the Tribunal the treatment that these workers received while working at the sand pit?
A. One third of the prisoners who worked there were inmates who were being punished by being forced to carry out this work, and then after they had completed the time of punitive labor, they were sent back to their original detachments. Then, of course, there were also the constant workers in this detachment.
Q. I think you failed to understand my question.
A. The conditions that prevailed in the sand pit were terrible. It was one of the worst detachments in the camp.
Court No. II - Case No. 4 All the people there did not get sufficient food.
They were beaten during their work, and many of them were shot. On the average, ten prisoners were killed every day, and ten to twenty who had lost consciousness and who were otherwise sick were returned to the camp. The work had to be carried out at double time, and the work had to be achieved at such a speed that nobody was able to carry it out. Whenever we were unable to run as fast as we were told to or whenever we showed that we did not have sufficient strength to push the carts, then we were always beaten by the foremen and the Capes, and people were shot by the SS guards.
Q. Were you ever assigned to the gravel pit operated by the Deutsche Earth and Stone Works?
Q. Were you ever assigned to the gravel pit operated by the Deutsche Earth & Stone Works?
A. Yes. I personally did not work in the gravel pit, but the conditions which prevailed there I know very exactly from the descriptions of my friends, because I had some very good friends in this command. Furthermore, the people from this command were billeted with me.
Q. And did these people who were billeted with you, your friends, who were assigned to the gravel pits, describe to you the conditions that prevailed there?
A. Yes, they described them to me exactly. Furthermore, I have personal experience. Every day I saw the entire command when they returned from work, and all the entire command consisted of exhausted people. There were about approximately three hundred inmates included in this command at that time, and every day ten to twenty dead persons were carried back, and an additional lot, a number of persons and patients had fainted, and I always saw that when they entered the camp gate, and whenever this command returned from work. My command always returned to camp earlier than they did, approximately one half hour earlier. That is why we were always in a position to observe them when the other commands returned. Amongst them there was also the gravel pit command.
Q. Did there come a time when you were assigned to work at one of the plants operated by the DAW?
A. Yes, this plant at Auschwitz belonged to the DAW, and at the time when I worked there as an electrician there were about two thousand inmates which worked there. To this assignment were a large part of these industriegelaendo work shops but in 1944 all mechanics and forgers of the management had been separated from these works and they had been joined to the DAW, and a large number of these works were also operated there.
Q. Will you tell us, Witness, how you know that this shop was operated by the DAW?
A. Well, all prisoners in camp generally knew about that. Well, at this plant there was assigned, not only documents which belonged to the assignment and always contained the letters DAW, but capos and lower capos of this assignment had an armband which was different than the one worn in all the other assignments. The capos from other assignments had yellow armbands and those of the DAW had black-blue armbands with the white inscription "DAW" and the appropriate department where they were working.
Q. Will you tell the Tribunal something about the conditions that prevailed at this plant operated by the DAW, the working conditions?
A. Very well. This assignment always worked from early in the morning until seven o'clock at night, and a half hour was taken off at noon. All the prisoners there were overworked. They had to carry out too much work. Furthermore, the civilian foreman and also the SS foreman had a very bad reputation throughout the camp because of their sadism. Especially infamous was the director of this plant, Oberstrumfuehrer Sauer. In my work I was present in many cases where beatings occurred and where inmates were beaten to death by capos and other SS men and also by civilian foreman. I know this man by the name of Obersturmfuehrer Sauer.
Q. Was there a time in June, 1943, when some prominent visitors came to Auschwitz?
A. Yes, that was in June, 1943.
Q. And will you describe to the Tribunal the circumstances of that visit and the basis of your knowledge?
A. On this day, set apart from the command of the electric and construction detachment, a capo and one SS foreman, we were sent from Auschwitz to Birkenau approximately at seven-thirty, and we arrived there and began some construction work. In this case we were to establish an electric line to the Camp F, to Birkenau, and this was part of the camp at Birkenau. We worked there and approximately around ten o'clock in the morning, in very good visibility and the weather was very good, several cars drove out with SS officers, and they stopped at the hill.
We already had heard from the day before that inspection of the camp was to take place by Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, the Director of the Central Administrative Agency of the Main Office. However, we were very surprised that he had arrived already so early in the day. They were located approximately from sixty to eighty meters away from the gas chambers. Behind the gas chambers there was Crematorium No. 3. Thus we were able to observe the whole occurrence very well. The whole group of SS officers, amongst them Pohl, whom we had already seen in camp at an earlier period of time, after I had been in camp for three months, he left his car, and then they walked over to the crematorium. They spent several minutes in the crematorium and then they again went outside and they went to the gas chamber, and after a short time all of them went downstairs and entered the gas chamber. They remained there for approximately forty-five minutes to one hour. After this time they again came outside, and then all of them were engaged in a discussion, and then first one car and then three trucks loaded with sick and exhausted prisoners came from the direction of Auschwitz. The cars came from the main road to the crematorium, and then approximately thirty people from the special assignment came and threw the patients and the sick people off the trucks. Then the trucks left and went back to Auschwitz and the prisoners from the special task groups all took the sick people who had been brought there into the gas chambers, carried them on stretchers, and they also carried them without stretchers. Ten minutes later an additional number of trucks arrived loaded with prisoners. There were approximately four or five, and in each truck there were approximately twenty-five to fifty people. Several of them were lying in the trucks and others were still able to stand. All of them were only dressed in a very short shirt. It was very short. They did not have anything else. And then the same story repeated itself.
People were thrown off the trucks and they were carried into the gas chambers. Then two SS men appeared. They were lower, they were noncommissioned officers of the SS. Then came an ambulance with a red cross on it and which brought several tins. Already at that time we knew that the tins were filled with cyklon gas.
This was not a secret, because approximately 100 meters from our camp at Auschwitz there was a so-called theater building, where these tins of gas were stored. At that time we knew that these tins were filled with Cyklon. The two SS men then walked over with these tins to a window of the gas chamber. The windows were above ground; the gas chamber was below the ground. The window worked from above. Therefore the windows could be opened and one could look at the prisoners inside, and it was also easy to throw in the tins of gas. The SS men stood by the windows, but they did not as yet throw the tins of gas inside. And then Pohl would come, escorted by five SS officers, and all the guests who had come from Berlin, walked over to the window, and then he looked through the window for about fifteen minutes. He looked below and watched the inmates who were inside in the gas chamber. Then Pohl went back with his escort, from the gas chamber.
Q Excuse me. Where Pohl was and his party standing when the SS man took the tins of gas and dropped them in the gas chamber?
A They stood over the gas chamber, approximately one meter away from the window. Then I observed that after the tins were thrown in, the window was closed. And the whole thing lasted for approximately 15 minutes.
Q Then where did Pohl and his party go?
A Then again he went in the direction of the street, where the other group of officers were standing. And then another four or five approached the gas chamber. They approached the window there, which I was able to observe. And they did the same thing that Pohl did, that is, they looked through the window and observed. And then after 20 minutes when all of them had observed this thing sufficiently -I believe that you did not understand me correctly, because I have said the SS people who threw these tins did not yet throw the tins, but stood around a long period of time with these tins in their hands, and all the officers who were with Pohl, and Pohl himself, observed the prisoners in the gas chambers before the tins were thrown in.
And then after all of them had looked into the gas chamber, then, upon the order of our chief of command Unterscharfuehrer Jenne, and the camp leader of Auschwitz, with the Deputy of the Camp Leader, Hoffman, he approached our group and told our chief, "Now you beat it for half a hour; you go in this direction." Then our chief lined us up in five's and we marched off. We went as far as a barn in the village, Babitz. That village was already smashed and several camps had been established there, and we went there and we sat near a barn and we rested for about a half hour. Then we came back and Pohl with all his officers were no longer at the gas chamber, only because they were still standing there. They were. They were still standing where they were, on the road. And then we started to work and ten minutes afterwards Pohl and this time he was accompanied by Hoess -- he and Hoess were the two first and then the others. Also, they came to the gas chambers, and Pohl and Hoess looked through the windows and then some of the others looked through the window. And then they left the crematorium.
Q Excuse me. This was about how long after the tins of gas had been thrown into the crematorium, that Pohl and his party returned?
A Half an hour. We assumed that immediately after we left, the tins were thrown inside, and we stayed in the other place a half an hour. After ten minutes Pohl appeared once mere. So the whole matter lasted 40 minutes. This was after the tins were thrown.
Q Then were the bodies removed from the gas chamber to the crematorium?