A. Yes, there was one called Woitschechowski. He came from Clemens. Then there was the one in charge of my workshop.
Q. What was the custom in your camp? Did you talk about the camp leaders, the SS officers, by their Christian names?
A. No, as a rule we didn't, only their names and their rank.
Q. Now I want to come to something else.
A. When you saw a signature or a printed Christian name, then of course you could know what the Christian name was.
Q. Is it correct, witness, that it was only the rule to refer to an SS Fuehrer, that is to say, his Christian name would appear only on printed forms or letters, but it was not usual in talks to refer to SS officers by their Christian names? Is that correct? Please answer yes or no.
A. Usually not, but in this case or in certain other cases if they were well-known officers then the NCO's would assume a familiar tone and refer to them by their Christian names. They would say "Hans", for instance.
Q. I am not speaking about Bobermin, witness, at this point. I am speaking quite generally.
A. Well, we knew, for instance, that they would call each other Gusti, Hansi and so forth.
Q. You did not understand my question. What I am asking you is this, and please answer yes or no. Was it usual in the camp to have the names of SS leaders, to have their Christian names on printed forms and letters, whereas when you talked about people, only the name and the rank would be mentioned? Please answer my question yes or no.
A. No, it wasn't like that.
Q. You wish to say no; is that right? It was not usual?
A. It was not very frequent to use Christian names when you talked about people.
Q. That is to say, when you talked about people the Christian name was used infrequently?
A. Less frequently than otherwise.
Q. Very well. Now I come to the incident in June 1943. You say that on that day you worked in a detachment which had to get together electrical equipment for the camp; is that right?
A. Electrical equipment, yes.
Q. Please answer my questions yes or no. Where was this electrical equipment put up?
A. They were put near the camp F, which was a hospital camp, and they were put near a place called Sauna.
Q. How big was the route on which you worked with that electrical equipment roughly?
A. About three hundred meters, or four hundred meters perhaps.
Q. Four hundred meters. How many masts are put up on a---
A. There was one mast every fifteen meters.
Q. Fifteen meters--one mast. And how long does it take to erect one pole?
A. How long do you mean? Perhaps two or three hours.
Q. One pole?
A. One pole, yes. We had to---
Q. No, I do not ask what you had to do. How long does it take to erect a pole? That's all I want to know. Please answer my questions correctly.
A. Two or three hours.
Q. How big was your detachment?
A. Fifteen men.
Q. Fifteen men?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many people are working to erect one pole?
A. Half of us would dig a ditch, and the other half would put up the pole.
Q. Who was in charge of that detachment?
A. The SS man you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Unterscharfuehrer Otto Jenne.
Q. Who was the Capo?
A. The Capo was a Pole called Franz Bawrowski.
THE PRESIDENT: And what is a Capo?
Q. Will you please explain what a capo is, witness?
A. A Camp is an inmate who is in charge of the other inmates, and he has to supervise the work. He never worked himself, but he gave directives to others, and he saw to it that everybody worked well.
THE PRESIDENT: A foremen or a boss?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it's fairly similar to a foreman.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
Q. Witness, what is the usual distance for poles to be erected?
A. Usually poles are at the distance of fifteen meters from each other.
Q. Why was it done differently in Auschwitz?
THE PRESIDENT: We are not very much interested in how many meters there were between poles, nor how many minutes it took to put one up. Does that help?
DR. GAWLIK: Mr. President, the reason I am asking this is that the witness alleges that he worked there from 10:00 in the morning until 5:30 in the evening in order to erect poles and had been able to observe everything which, I think, is very unlikely.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, don't pursue it too far. Go ahead, but come to the end--of the poles.
Q. Why were the poles put up so close to each other?
A. Because the soil was very bad, and general conditions were rather difficult. And one line of these poles was to go upwards and the other part of the poles should cover a different route, and these two routes should intersect at one point. Cone was to go to Sauna and the other one was to go from Camp F--from the kitchen of the camp to the Crematorium Number 1.
Q. And you worked throughout the time of the visit?
A. Apart from an hour's interval at lunch time from half past 12:00 to half past 1:00.
Q. It was said here that you had to run while you did your work.
A. Normally not in our detachment. Skilled workers did not have to ran to their work.
Q. But surely it is correct, especially when SS officers wore around, then the foreman and the SS man were particularly anxious to drive you to your work. Please answer yes or no.
A. We had to work very quickly but not running. He had to work very speedily. Our foreman was very good. So was our SS man, and therefore, we were not afraid that we would be beaten if we didn't work fast enough.
Q. Now, at what distance from your place of work was the crematorium and the gas chamber?
A. About sixty meters, sometimes forty meters, sometimes eithty meters.
Q. Is it true to say that the gas chamber and the crematorium were very strictly cordoned off and only few people were allowed admission there?
A. That is not correct, no.
Q. Also, you said that you saw the people who came to the hospital on trucks -- who came to the gas chamber, rather -- on trucks -- how far was the hospital away from the gas chamber?
A. From the hospital end of Auschwitz, that was about four kilometers.
Q. How, if it was four kilometers, could you see that they came from the hospital?
A. Well, because they had no shirts on and they were ill. Some wore bandages; some had open wounds, and then when we returned to the camp I was told that this was a detachment to be gassed.
Q. Then you said that the crematorium was behind the gas chambers?
A. At the side of the gas chambers.
Q. At the side of it or behind it?
A. Well, perhaps twenty meters distance from the gas chambers, fifteen or twenty meters.
Q. Then you said that the corpses were taken from the gas chambers to the creatorium on small carts on stretchers?
A. This detachment had several equipment--
Q. I put it to you that before the IMT, an affidavit was submitted that there was a lift there. A lift was supposed to be there.
A. Later on, yes. Four months later the gas chamber was changed, but when the new gas chamber was built it was quite different from the old one.
Q. Now I come to your testimony about Bobermin. According to my notes you talked about three incidents; a) a person, who you think was Hans Bobermin, is said to have approached you to a distance of two or three meters. Then you talked about a conversation between Jenne and the foreman, and then finally you told about a remark made by Swoboda.
A. Yes, when I heard how the two talked together, and then the foreman told us himself that this is Bobermin.
Q. Now, please describe to us exactly the incident of how the person who you think was Hans Bobermin approached your group? Was he alone? What was he doing? Was he talking? What happened in the crematorium at the time-or the gas chamber?
A. He talked to our Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda.
Q. He talked to your Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda--
THE PRESIDENT: You ask him to answer your question and then you interrupt him. Let him answer your question. Go ahead.
A. (Cont'd) He talked with Unterscharfuehrer Swoboda alone perhaps for ten minutes. That was in the morning, and then he approached our group with somebody else, a civilian, but I am not sure whether it was a civilian. Anyway, another person was with him, and then he talked again with Swoboda, and then he asked him and Swoboda gave very slow and long answers in explanation, and then he walked away slowly. Bobermin walked away slowly. He went back to the group with Pohl.
Q. And what were you doing at that point?
A. Well, the transport of the inmates had already reached the gas chamber, and I observed from above, and these officers who had seen the thing already went back to the meadow.
Q. Did you not do any work at that time?
Yes, we were working at that moment.
Q. But now was it possible for you to observe what was going on in the gas chamber?
A. While we worked we talked to each other. We talked to each other and we could look around. We didn't work too hard.
Q. This person who you think was Hans Bobermin, you described him -- well built, broad shoulders, a high hat?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you give us more details?
A. No, I do not remember any more.
Q What rank was this person? What was this person's rank?
A He was an obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q. You saw that, did you?
A. Yes.
Q How did you recognize that he was an obersturmbannfuehrer?
A How did I recognize he was as obersturmbannfuehrer, you mean? Because of the badges he was wearing.
Q Please describe the badges to us.
A He wore four little nails as it were, and something else. I remember four things here and something else.
THE PRESIDENT: We will take a recess.
THE MARSHAL: The court will be in recess fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for defendant Bobermin):
Q Witness, you said before the recess that this person who came to that place had four stars and something else; "something else," you said. What was that something else?
A I do not remember.
Q I did not understand you.
A I do not remember what it was.
Q However, you did recognize that this was an Obersturmbannfuehrer?
A Yes.
Q When this person came to you, you did not know that person's name, did you? Is that correct?
A When that person came to me we already knew that this was an Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q However, you did not know the name at the time?
A When he left we also learned the name.
Q Could you answer my question with Yes or No? When that parson approached you and was near you, you did not know that person's name; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Then you further described that person as wellbuilt and with broad shoulders; is that correct?
A Yes.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, I wish that the defendant Pohl may get up for a minute.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, the defendant Pohl may stand. (Defendant Pohl complied) BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, would you say that the defendant Pohl is well built and has broad shoulders?
A Yes, I can say that. However, that was not Pohl I am referring to.
Q Was the person who approached you built the same way as the defendant Pohl? Answer the question Yes or No.
A It was a similar build.
Q How did it differ in shape, the build of the man who approached you and the build of the defendant Pohl?
A I remember that Bobermin had a leather coat on and he had it open. It is possible that, because of that leather coat, he looked as if he were more strongly built.
Q Witness, you did not answer my question. You said that his build was similar to that of the defendant Pohl, but not the same one.
A Yes, similar.
Q I asked you how it differed in shape, what was the difference between the two builds? You saw both persons on that day?
A Yes.
Q You also have a good memory?
A Yes, I do. The other person's namely, Bobermin's, differed from Pohl's by the fact that his shoulders were sort of falling.
Q Were there any further differences between the two?
A I can not remember that anymore.
Q I deduce from that that the sizes were approximate ely the same.
A Yes, approximately.
Q Now, I put before you, witness, that the defendant Bobermin, who is here, at the time had a special mark of distinction by which you could distinguish him from the defendant Pohl.
He is much shorter than Pohl, and at the time he was rather fat.
A I do not remember that. I do not remember how fat he was. Other people also had strong bellies.
Q However, you will admit that you would immediately recognize such a person and could tell the difference if you had seen them both together? Answer my question with Yes or No.
A That person did strike me, really.
Q If a person strikes you because of that particular mark of distinction, because he differs from the defendant Pohl, then I am sure that it would have struck you particularly and that then you would have remembered immediately that special distinguishing mark, wouldn't you?
AAll I remember is that I saw little marks of distinction at the time, only when Bobermin was leaving. In other words, he was turning his back. He was leaving us then, and Unterscharfuehrer/ Jenne told us, "Look at that man with broad shoulders and the broad hat. That is Hans Bobermin," etc. However, I myself was not struck by special marks, because when he was right by us, I did not pay any attention to his belly and to any particular distinguishing marks other than those mentioned.
Q Witness, you did not answer my question. I asked you the following things: Namely, the defendant Bobermin, who is here, is built entirely differently from the defendant Pohl. I ask you now -- and I want you to answer my question with Yes or No.
A I am sorry; I have already answered that he had a similar build.
Q A person who was definitely smaller than Pohl, who was about 300 heavy-weights, and when he wore the SS uniform he looked funny. I am sure that he would have struck you. I want you to answer my question Yes or No.
THE PRESIDENT: How can he answer that question Yes or No? I don't even know what the question is. Ask him definitely one question now.
Q Would you have noticed it particularly if that person you are referring to, namely, the one who approached you, compared with Pohl, was smaller or shorter, had a thick belly and weighed about 200 heavy-weights?
A I know that he was thick and broad shouldered, but if he looked funny or something, I did not notice, because we did not like all these people. We hated them.
Q Witness, I have to say that you did not answer my question.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he has answered your question several times. Go on to something else.
Q Now tell us about the discussion between Swoboda and Jenne.
A Swoboda asked Jenne if that was Bobermin, and the man who was in charge of quarries there, all the quarries, that is. Jenne answered, "That is the same man," and that that is the same man, the same Hans Bobermin we had already seen and spoken to before, and he had quite a good job and climbed very quickly to his rank and he was promoted fast. Once he said "Hans", and once he said "Hansi" or "Hansli" -- Bobermin. Then we laughed because of those remarks, and then Swoboda told something else with reference to Bobermin. I believe that it was some sort of anecdote, something that really happened.
The two were just laughing. Our Capo, Bragowski (?), looked at UnterScharfuehrer Jenne with sort of a questioning look in his eye, and Jenne said very loud, "Yes, well take a good look at that man. If that man could beat all of them to death, then I'm sure that we would have added onto the chimney long ago." In other words, that that man had bad intentions.
Q How far away were you from these people during the conversation between Jenne and Swoboda?
A I was right behind their backs. I was right behind the backs of the two. There was a big box there, and I had tools in there, and I was working with my tools.
Q And during the whole conversation you were behind the two men?
A Yes. I grabbed a screwdriver I had to use, and that is how I just stood there. I couldn't find it for a moment.
Q Is there any possibility that you could have misunderstood the name?
A No, there is not.
Q Can you tell us why?
A Yes, I can. That name struck me particularly because of its funny sound, since I am a Pole. I have mentioned that before.
Q You have said that the name "Bober" means "beans" in Polish?
A Yes, some sort of beans. That is a kind of bean that they use in the Eastern countries.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Is it correct that the plants you are referring to are called "bub" and not "bober"?
A Yes, in Hungarian you call it bub. However, in Polish you call it bub, literally you call it bub like the Hungarian language bober.
Q How do you remember the name Hans, the first name Hans?
A That is a name that could be easily kept in one's mind. It is not complicated at all.
Q Did you memorize that name during the whole period of time you were there, or did you just recall the name now?
A I had that name in my mind all the time.
Q What was your interest to remember that name?
A I was interested in it. I was interested in all the SS officers whom I saw and whom I could hear.
Q Isn't it rather striking that Swoboda or the other people spoke of Hans Bobermin as you told me before? It was usual that they called SS Fuehrers only by their rank and their last name.
A Yes, that is true. That was just a friendly conversation. The two men were friends and Yenne did not speak about Bobermin as if it were official business. It was just a friendly conversation between the two men. He just said it was a man he knew.
Q I further put before you, Witness, that you said that Swoboda or Yenne had said that Bobermin was the man who was in charge of the quarries. I put before you now, Witness, that the Defendant Bobermin who was here was not in charge of the quarries. Do you have to make any statements when you remember that?
A I do not know that, but I know that he said so.
MR. ROBBINS: I object to the statement of the defense counsel, the fact that he knew Bobermin was in charge of certain work.
THE PRESIDENT: The only question is what did the witness say, and he has now answered it by saying he is merely repeating what Swoboda said.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions to the witness.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
BY DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg)
Q Witness, you said that you were in the concentration camp Auschwitz for a period of two years and a half?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me if the concentration camp Auschwitz and the German armament factories were within the Schutzhaft camp or outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A That was within the chain of posts and outside of our barracks. That is, we lived behind the electric cables. However, it was within the chain of posts.
Q However, it was outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A We just lived in the Schutzhaft camp. There was no working place there, no work shops, just our barracks or billets. Where we worked was on the other side of the electric cables.
Q Can you tell me where SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Hoess used to live, was it inside or outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A Hoess?
Q Yes, Hoess.
A Hoess was living in a villa that was on the other side of the camp, right on the right-hand side of the entrance gate. One had to pass the old crematory and then turn right. There was a street parallel, running right parallel to the camp. That was where the SS building was, on the left-hand side, and in a small garden was Hoess' villa. That was at a distance of approximately sixty or eighty meters from the electric fence of the camp.
Q In other words, Witness, you want to say it was outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A Yes, outside of Schutzhaft camp, or rather, everything was Schutzhaft camp. The Schutzhaft camp went as far as the chain of posts.
Q Witness, the concentration camp, or a concentration camp consisted of the inner ring, namely the Schutzhaft camp, and between the inner and outside ring of the camp were the administrative buildings, Court No. II, Case No. IV.
and sometimes also work shops and billets, etc. Now, that inner camp which was separated from the other camp by an electric fence, I call that the Schutzhaft camp. I ask you now, the official billet of SSSturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Hoess, was that within or outside of that Schutzhaft camp in the inner ring?
AAll SS people lived outside of the Schutzhaft ring.
DR. HEIN: No further questions, you Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (For Defendant Mummenthey)
Q Witness, do you know the general situation where Auschwitz was situated?
A Yes.
Q In what direction was the concentration camp from the City of Auschwitz?
A It was at a distance of two to three kilometers.
Q I mean, what direction was it, from the south, west, east?
A I already forget that, but as far as I know, the city was on the right-hand side of the camp.
Q Where was that quarry in which you had to work on penal servititude?
A The quarry was at a distance of approximately one kilometer from the Schutzhaft camp. It was on a road which ran to Babitz, the village of Babitz.
Q Near the quarry, was there a river near there, namely the River Sola?
A Yes, it is not too far from there.
Q Was the gravel pit also there which you mentioned before?
A The gravel pit was at quite a distance from there.
Q In your court did you have special machines to do the work?
AAt the time we had sort of a train and also the railroad tracks and the small wagons.
Q What was your activity there?
A We separated sand from gravel and small stones from big stones, Court No. II, Case No. IV.
and then we passed that through sieves, and we stacked them up on small wagons and we pushed it away. We loaded the sand on heaps.
Q In that gravel pit were there also such machines?
A I do not know that. I do not know that, if that applies to the gravel pit.
Q Were you never at the gravel pit?
A I passed the gravel pit all right, but I couldn't tell you if they had any machines there.
Q Do you know that in the river, namely the River Sola, there was a certain place where they exploited the gravel?
A Yes, places where they were exploiting the gravel. Yes, that is the answer, there was some sort of a commando there which dragged the river, and they also exploited the gravel.
Q Were there also back works there, namely cranes and various machines?
A No, I can't recall that.
Q Didn't you see that?
A I do not remember. I can't recall if I ever saw it or not, but I couldn't tell you for sure.
Q Who was in charge of the gravel pit?
A Erd und Stein.
Q I mean, who was in charge of the gravel pit? I am talking of the gravel pit. You were working there.
A Yes.
Q Who gave orders for that penal servitude in there?
A The political department ordered that, and then the request was sent to the labor assignment office, and the labor assignment then assigned us to that particular type of work.
Q In other words, the camp administrative office ordered the work in that gravel pit?
A No, the political department ordered it, and the camp administration or the labor assignment office then assigned us to that work.
Court. No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Do you know if the gravel pit was under your construction office?
A No, it was not.
Q Do you know who was in charge of the gravel pit?
A The gravel pit was also under German Earth & Stone Works.
Q How do you know that?
A I know that because other inmates told me about it, inmates who worked there, and I also had several friends, and they told me that the civilian workers also worked in those gravel pits and that they were a part of the German Earth & Stone Works.
Q The small building which you mentioned before, is that an office or a work shop?
A It was an office.
Q How is it then that the camp administration, with reference to carrying out a penal servitude could assign you to a factory or a work shop which was not under the orders of the camp administration?
A That seemed bound to be. I had to work. One-third of the inmates there had been assigned there to serve a penal servitude.
Q How did it come about, how did it happen?
AAll I know about the gravel pit is that it was the custom, commando.
Q You already told me that.
AAnd that is why the inmates were sent there in order to serve their terms.
Q I am only interested in the question of how you knew that the sand pit and also the gravel was under the Earth and Stone Works. If I understood you correctly you declared that you only knew that from your comrades.
A No, I was speaking about the gravel pit, because I did not work there; but as far as the sand pit was concerned, I know that myself, as I was there.
Q The office was quite some distance or -
A No, right near the sand pit. That is how the people supervised us.
Q Who was it that posted the guards there?
A You mean the guards?
Q Yes.
A I do not know that. However, there were special bad people -
Q In only asked you who provided the guards, and want you to answer that question.
A I already said before -- first you spoke of the post and now as to the commandos.
Q Yes, I asked you who assigned these guards to the pits. I mean, what office, the camp administration, or was it the political administration, or what organization was it? Who was it that provided these guards?
A I think it was the camp administration. I am not sure, though.
Q I see.
A (Continuing) The guards had special orders from the officers.
Q Who was the man in charge of the Earth and Stone Works, right there? I am speaking of all the Dest in Auschwitz.
A You mean the quarry? I do not remember any more.
Q Do you know that there was an administration there for?
A Yes, I am quite sure of that.
Q Did that man in charge there ever come to see you working in that same pit? Did that man in charge come to see your working place?
A Yes.
Q Didn't you inquire about the name of that man?
A No, I did not, because I had no possibility of doing so. We had to work very, very, fast.
Q You told us before that you inquired about all sorts of personalities there -
A Yes, when that was possible I did, but it was not always possible.
Q However, if that manager came repeatedly would you not be interested to know the name of the man?
A Well, I asked other inmates. However, none of them could answer me. They did not know anything about it.
Q Who was it that took charge of the inmates who worked in that sand pit, and I mean with reference to food?
A For all the commandos the camp administration was in charge of that.
Q How was the food?
A Very bad, extremely bad.
Q How many calories did you receive per day?
A Six hundred.
Q How many did you say?
A I said about six hundred.
Q Altogether, generally speaking.
AAll the inmates, you mean?
Q No, you misunderstood me. How many calories did you get per day as an inmate?
A Six hundred.
Q Impossible, incredible! On Friday you mentioned the fact that SS guards had made use of their weapons.