He is much shorter than Pohl, and at the time he was rather fat.
A I do not remember that. I do not remember how fat he was. Other people also had strong bellies.
Q However, you will admit that you would immediately recognize such a person and could tell the difference if you had seen them both together? Answer my question with Yes or No.
A That person did strike me, really.
Q If a person strikes you because of that particular mark of distinction, because he differs from the defendant Pohl, then I am sure that it would have struck you particularly and that then you would have remembered immediately that special distinguishing mark, wouldn't you?
AAll I remember is that I saw little marks of distinction at the time, only when Bobermin was leaving. In other words, he was turning his back. He was leaving us then, and Unterscharfuehrer/ Jenne told us, "Look at that man with broad shoulders and the broad hat. That is Hans Bobermin," etc. However, I myself was not struck by special marks, because when he was right by us, I did not pay any attention to his belly and to any particular distinguishing marks other than those mentioned.
Q Witness, you did not answer my question. I asked you the following things: Namely, the defendant Bobermin, who is here, is built entirely differently from the defendant Pohl. I ask you now -- and I want you to answer my question with Yes or No.
A I am sorry; I have already answered that he had a similar build.
Q A person who was definitely smaller than Pohl, who was about 300 heavy-weights, and when he wore the SS uniform he looked funny. I am sure that he would have struck you. I want you to answer my question Yes or No.
THE PRESIDENT: How can he answer that question Yes or No? I don't even know what the question is. Ask him definitely one question now.
Q Would you have noticed it particularly if that person you are referring to, namely, the one who approached you, compared with Pohl, was smaller or shorter, had a thick belly and weighed about 200 heavy-weights?
A I know that he was thick and broad shouldered, but if he looked funny or something, I did not notice, because we did not like all these people. We hated them.
Q Witness, I have to say that you did not answer my question.
THE PRESIDENT: I think he has answered your question several times. Go on to something else.
Q Now tell us about the discussion between Swoboda and Jenne.
A Swoboda asked Jenne if that was Bobermin, and the man who was in charge of quarries there, all the quarries, that is. Jenne answered, "That is the same man," and that that is the same man, the same Hans Bobermin we had already seen and spoken to before, and he had quite a good job and climbed very quickly to his rank and he was promoted fast. Once he said "Hans", and once he said "Hansi" or "Hansli" -- Bobermin. Then we laughed because of those remarks, and then Swoboda told something else with reference to Bobermin. I believe that it was some sort of anecdote, something that really happened.
The two were just laughing. Our Capo, Bragowski (?), looked at UnterScharfuehrer Jenne with sort of a questioning look in his eye, and Jenne said very loud, "Yes, well take a good look at that man. If that man could beat all of them to death, then I'm sure that we would have added onto the chimney long ago." In other words, that that man had bad intentions.
Q How far away were you from these people during the conversation between Jenne and Swoboda?
A I was right behind their backs. I was right behind the backs of the two. There was a big box there, and I had tools in there, and I was working with my tools.
Q And during the whole conversation you were behind the two men?
A Yes. I grabbed a screwdriver I had to use, and that is how I just stood there. I couldn't find it for a moment.
Q Is there any possibility that you could have misunderstood the name?
A No, there is not.
Q Can you tell us why?
A Yes, I can. That name struck me particularly because of its funny sound, since I am a Pole. I have mentioned that before.
Q You have said that the name "Bober" means "beans" in Polish?
A Yes, some sort of beans. That is a kind of bean that they use in the Eastern countries.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Is it correct that the plants you are referring to are called "bub" and not "bober"?
A Yes, in Hungarian you call it bub. However, in Polish you call it bub, literally you call it bub like the Hungarian language bober.
Q How do you remember the name Hans, the first name Hans?
A That is a name that could be easily kept in one's mind. It is not complicated at all.
Q Did you memorize that name during the whole period of time you were there, or did you just recall the name now?
A I had that name in my mind all the time.
Q What was your interest to remember that name?
A I was interested in it. I was interested in all the SS officers whom I saw and whom I could hear.
Q Isn't it rather striking that Swoboda or the other people spoke of Hans Bobermin as you told me before? It was usual that they called SS Fuehrers only by their rank and their last name.
A Yes, that is true. That was just a friendly conversation. The two men were friends and Yenne did not speak about Bobermin as if it were official business. It was just a friendly conversation between the two men. He just said it was a man he knew.
Q I further put before you, Witness, that you said that Swoboda or Yenne had said that Bobermin was the man who was in charge of the quarries. I put before you now, Witness, that the Defendant Bobermin who was here was not in charge of the quarries. Do you have to make any statements when you remember that?
A I do not know that, but I know that he said so.
MR. ROBBINS: I object to the statement of the defense counsel, the fact that he knew Bobermin was in charge of certain work.
THE PRESIDENT: The only question is what did the witness say, and he has now answered it by saying he is merely repeating what Swoboda said.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions to the witness.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
BY DR. HEIM (For Defendant Hohberg)
Q Witness, you said that you were in the concentration camp Auschwitz for a period of two years and a half?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me if the concentration camp Auschwitz and the German armament factories were within the Schutzhaft camp or outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A That was within the chain of posts and outside of our barracks. That is, we lived behind the electric cables. However, it was within the chain of posts.
Q However, it was outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A We just lived in the Schutzhaft camp. There was no working place there, no work shops, just our barracks or billets. Where we worked was on the other side of the electric cables.
Q Can you tell me where SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Hoess used to live, was it inside or outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A Hoess?
Q Yes, Hoess.
A Hoess was living in a villa that was on the other side of the camp, right on the right-hand side of the entrance gate. One had to pass the old crematory and then turn right. There was a street parallel, running right parallel to the camp. That was where the SS building was, on the left-hand side, and in a small garden was Hoess' villa. That was at a distance of approximately sixty or eighty meters from the electric fence of the camp.
Q In other words, Witness, you want to say it was outside of the Schutzhaft camp?
A Yes, outside of Schutzhaft camp, or rather, everything was Schutzhaft camp. The Schutzhaft camp went as far as the chain of posts.
Q Witness, the concentration camp, or a concentration camp consisted of the inner ring, namely the Schutzhaft camp, and between the inner and outside ring of the camp were the administrative buildings, Court No. II, Case No. IV.
and sometimes also work shops and billets, etc. Now, that inner camp which was separated from the other camp by an electric fence, I call that the Schutzhaft camp. I ask you now, the official billet of SSSturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Hoess, was that within or outside of that Schutzhaft camp in the inner ring?
AAll SS people lived outside of the Schutzhaft ring.
DR. HEIN: No further questions, you Honor.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN (For Defendant Mummenthey)
Q Witness, do you know the general situation where Auschwitz was situated?
A Yes.
Q In what direction was the concentration camp from the City of Auschwitz?
A It was at a distance of two to three kilometers.
Q I mean, what direction was it, from the south, west, east?
A I already forget that, but as far as I know, the city was on the right-hand side of the camp.
Q Where was that quarry in which you had to work on penal servititude?
A The quarry was at a distance of approximately one kilometer from the Schutzhaft camp. It was on a road which ran to Babitz, the village of Babitz.
Q Near the quarry, was there a river near there, namely the River Sola?
A Yes, it is not too far from there.
Q Was the gravel pit also there which you mentioned before?
A The gravel pit was at quite a distance from there.
Q In your court did you have special machines to do the work?
AAt the time we had sort of a train and also the railroad tracks and the small wagons.
Q What was your activity there?
A We separated sand from gravel and small stones from big stones, Court No. II, Case No. IV.
and then we passed that through sieves, and we stacked them up on small wagons and we pushed it away. We loaded the sand on heaps.
Q In that gravel pit were there also such machines?
A I do not know that. I do not know that, if that applies to the gravel pit.
Q Were you never at the gravel pit?
A I passed the gravel pit all right, but I couldn't tell you if they had any machines there.
Q Do you know that in the river, namely the River Sola, there was a certain place where they exploited the gravel?
A Yes, places where they were exploiting the gravel. Yes, that is the answer, there was some sort of a commando there which dragged the river, and they also exploited the gravel.
Q Were there also back works there, namely cranes and various machines?
A No, I can't recall that.
Q Didn't you see that?
A I do not remember. I can't recall if I ever saw it or not, but I couldn't tell you for sure.
Q Who was in charge of the gravel pit?
A Erd und Stein.
Q I mean, who was in charge of the gravel pit? I am talking of the gravel pit. You were working there.
A Yes.
Q Who gave orders for that penal servitude in there?
A The political department ordered that, and then the request was sent to the labor assignment office, and the labor assignment then assigned us to that particular type of work.
Q In other words, the camp administrative office ordered the work in that gravel pit?
A No, the political department ordered it, and the camp administration or the labor assignment office then assigned us to that work.
Court. No. II, Case No. IV.
Q Do you know if the gravel pit was under your construction office?
A No, it was not.
Q Do you know who was in charge of the gravel pit?
A The gravel pit was also under German Earth & Stone Works.
Q How do you know that?
A I know that because other inmates told me about it, inmates who worked there, and I also had several friends, and they told me that the civilian workers also worked in those gravel pits and that they were a part of the German Earth & Stone Works.
Q The small building which you mentioned before, is that an office or a work shop?
A It was an office.
Q How is it then that the camp administration, with reference to carrying out a penal servitude could assign you to a factory or a work shop which was not under the orders of the camp administration?
A That seemed bound to be. I had to work. One-third of the inmates there had been assigned there to serve a penal servitude.
Q How did it come about, how did it happen?
AAll I know about the gravel pit is that it was the custom, commando.
Q You already told me that.
AAnd that is why the inmates were sent there in order to serve their terms.
Q I am only interested in the question of how you knew that the sand pit and also the gravel was under the Earth and Stone Works. If I understood you correctly you declared that you only knew that from your comrades.
A No, I was speaking about the gravel pit, because I did not work there; but as far as the sand pit was concerned, I know that myself, as I was there.
Q The office was quite some distance or -
A No, right near the sand pit. That is how the people supervised us.
Q Who was it that posted the guards there?
A You mean the guards?
Q Yes.
A I do not know that. However, there were special bad people -
Q In only asked you who provided the guards, and want you to answer that question.
A I already said before -- first you spoke of the post and now as to the commandos.
Q Yes, I asked you who assigned these guards to the pits. I mean, what office, the camp administration, or was it the political administration, or what organization was it? Who was it that provided these guards?
A I think it was the camp administration. I am not sure, though.
Q I see.
A (Continuing) The guards had special orders from the officers.
Q Who was the man in charge of the Earth and Stone Works, right there? I am speaking of all the Dest in Auschwitz.
A You mean the quarry? I do not remember any more.
Q Do you know that there was an administration there for?
A Yes, I am quite sure of that.
Q Did that man in charge there ever come to see you working in that same pit? Did that man in charge come to see your working place?
A Yes.
Q Didn't you inquire about the name of that man?
A No, I did not, because I had no possibility of doing so. We had to work very, very, fast.
Q You told us before that you inquired about all sorts of personalities there -
A Yes, when that was possible I did, but it was not always possible.
Q However, if that manager came repeatedly would you not be interested to know the name of the man?
A Well, I asked other inmates. However, none of them could answer me. They did not know anything about it.
Q Who was it that took charge of the inmates who worked in that sand pit, and I mean with reference to food?
A For all the commandos the camp administration was in charge of that.
Q How was the food?
A Very bad, extremely bad.
Q How many calories did you receive per day?
A Six hundred.
Q How many did you say?
A I said about six hundred.
Q Altogether, generally speaking.
AAll the inmates, you mean?
Q No, you misunderstood me. How many calories did you get per day as an inmate?
A Six hundred.
Q Impossible, incredible! On Friday you mentioned the fact that SS guards had made use of their weapons.
A Yes, they had shot at somebody. Yes.
Q You said that happened every day?
A Yes.
Q Were there deaths every day?
A Yes, there were deaths, and wounded, every day; and people who were unconscious and people who were dying.
Q How did you bring these people back?
A We partly took them on our carts, and sometimes on our backs.
Q And where were they sent, brought to?
A To the camp: after our detail work we came back to the camp -with the dead ones, that is.
Q Was there some sort of a connective track between the sand pit and the Reichsbahn?
A That sand pit, there was no such thing. However, on other sand pits we did have that.
Q On that particular one you did not have a track.
A No, the sand was picked up by trucks.
Q And if there was such a thing as a gravel pit you do not know.
A The gravel pit I do not know.
Q All right. How did you possibly find out that the calory ration amounted to six hundred.
AAbout a year before I read that all they had was six hundred calories.
Q In other words, you did not know from that time what calories you received.
AAll I know, we were hungry all the time.
Q Other people were also hungry. That does not prove the amount of calories.
AAll I can tell you is what we received in food and you can find that out for yourself, calories.
Q Now, I have a last question to you: Witness, is it correct that the Dest in the German Earth and Stone Works had the right to exploit the gravel out of the Sola River and received the right by the electrical plant nearby?
A I do not know that.
DR. FROESCHMANN: No further questions, your Honor.
DR. HELZER: Your Honor, after having discussed many things with my client, I want you to permit me to ask certain questions of the witness. During the cross-examination of the witness Friday I was not here, and today I was surprised at his naming the Defendant Sommer. I was told that the witness had stated that the Defendant Sommer had been in Auschwitz all the time, constantly. I would like to ask the witness -
BY DR. BELZER:
Q Did Sommer actually belong to the Camp personnel at Auschwitz?
A Did he belong to whom?
Q Did he belong to the Camp personnel?
A Naturally he did, because all labor assignment people belonged to the camp.
Q The Defendant Sommer was labor assignment leader in the concentration camp of Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q How was it then that on Friday you stated here that apart from the Defendant Pohl you recognized only Pohl among the Defendants and today you recognize, apart from the Defendant Pohl, the Defendant Sommers, and also the Defendant Eirenschmalz?
Q On Friday I was asked by the Prosecution if I could recognize Pohl or Bobermin and no further question. I was not asked any further question, namely, if I could recognize any of the other defendants.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness is correct, Counsel. You were not here, and he was not asked whether he could identify any other defendants.
Q Since your last examination on Friday did you speak with a representative of the Prosecution?
A No, I left Nurnberg entirely immediately after the recess on Friday and I returned yesterday evening.
Q In other words, you still stick to your statement that no representative of the Prosecution ever showed you a picture of any of the Defendants?
A No, none. No pictures were shown to me.
Q Did you ever hear anything of the Bona Factory at Auschwitz?
A Yes.
Q In what camp was the Bona Factory?
A That was in Auschwitz III, Monnowitz.
Q Were you in that camp yourself?
A Yes, I went to work there one day with my commandos. That was when they were constructing the camp. And I also had some work to do there.
Q Did you ever hear the name, Kogon?
A Kogon? No.
Q No?
A No.
Q Did you ever read the book, "The SS State"?
A No, I never heard of such a name.
DR. BELZER: You did not know it. Thank you very much. That is all, your Honors.
DR. SEIDL: Your Honor, I want you to grant me the permission to ask a few more questions of the witness, as a result of the crossexamination.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, upon the question of the Defendant Bobermin, you stated that it was not very difficult to come near the gas chambers. You remember that, don't you?
A I myself worked in the gas chamber. Our commando was granted permission to go there, because we had to carry out work there.
Q That is sufficient. The other task you had there was the one which you had during the whole period of time you were in Auschwitz, and the camp commander was Rudolf Hoess.
A No, I never said such a thing. I said that Hoess was one of them, ten Liebehenschel and after that Baer and then Hoess again.
Q However, you are of the opinion that the commander, Rudolf Hoess, has a very good knowledge of the situation in Auschwitz?
A Hoess? Yes, I think so.
Q All right. I will show you now a statement -- or at least put before you a statement as it was made by Hoess before the International Military Tribunal. The statement was made on the 15th of April, 1946. It is on the pages 7800 of the German record. Hoess was asked the following question: "Would you describe in a very few words if it is correct that the concentration camp of Auschwitz was entirely isolated and what measures were taken in order to carry out the tasks to which you were assigned." To this question the answer Hoess gave was: "The camp of Auschwitz as such was three kilometers from the city itself. The surroundings had been cleared of all the previous inhabitants there and the whole area could only be entered by SS men with special passes. The actual camp of Birkenau, namely where the exterminations took place, was built later on, and was two more kilometers from the camp of Auschwitz. The installations themselves, that is, the provisional installations used at the beginning were inside the woods and they could not even be seen from there, and could not be seen from far away.
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
"That special territory had been declared off-limits and could not even be entered by the SS members--or only could be entered by SS members who had a very special pass. That is how, according to human recollection, none was in a position to enter that territory except for those mentioned, with the passes."
Just a moment, witness; I shall ask you now. Do you still stick to your statement that you approached the gas chambers at about a distance of sixty meters?
A Yes.
Q And you saw the defendant Pohl?
A Yes. The statement made by Hoess I shall call a lie because what we knew in that respect was much more than what Hoess wanted to say in his statement.
Q And you call Hoess' statement a lie?
A Yes.
Q Even if I tell you that he was a witness in the Prosecution?
A The city was a distance of three kilometers; Birkenau was two kilometers from Auschwitz. That is correct, too. However, that the crematoria were in the woods is not true because in 1944 camouflage nets were used. In other words, artificial trees. But that did not apply either because the woods were behind the crematory No. 2; behind crematory No. 3 there was nothing but logs. And when we worked there as electricians--and I saw the gas chember several times--then we could always speak with the people who were going to be gassed; those who had just arrived from Holland and France and Hungary; and we could see everything. Then, I am not the only one who can actually assert that-but I can get you all the men from my Commando to testify to that effect, who will state exactly the same things as I am stating. I, myself, worked in crematoria, and I worked in the gas chambers, and I worked everywhere. For us there was no single place where we could not enter. We carried on all the work there. And apart from that what Hoess said, namely, that only SS could approach the camp or the terri Court No, IV, Case No. II.
tory around it, is not true either, because there were approximately five thousand civilians there. They worked within the premises of the camp--if not right near. And they worked in the various installations and the works that were carried out there, and that was their particular firm where these people were assigned to. Apart from that, several high-ranking officers came from outside of the camp and we all knew about it. We knew that Hoess and the others came to see the camp.
In other words, if they just came out of pure curiosity, then they had to see to it that Hoess could get the permission to come and visit the camp. We saw several curious SS men, and Germans who came into the camp.
Q That is enough.
What kind of a uniform did the defendant Oswald Pohl wear at the time?
A Uniform?
Q Or was he a civilian?
A No, he was wearing a uniform. He wore boots and short trousers and I believe that they were light trousers--not green. They were sort of light, but I am not quite sure about that. And he did not wear a coat. Her left the coat in his car. He wore some sort of a raincoat-I don't remember exactly. However, he did not wear a coat. --and he wore a cap, too.
Q Did he have any special decorations or medals?
A No, just small ones. He just wore the small ribbons.
Q He did not wear any metal medals, did he?
A No, he did not.
Q Were those medals that you saw?
A No, they were just small ribbons. However, I did not see any medals.
MR. SEIDL: No further questions of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other counsel wish to cross-examine this witness?
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
Re-direct, Mr. Robbins?
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION
MR. ROBBINS: Just a few questions, Your Honor.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Herr Bielski, you just mentioned camouflage of crematoria and gas chambers. Would you give us a little more detail on the camouflage, please?
A Well, at the time when we worked there, there was no camouflage. Camouflage was only used after the arrival of the Greek transports. That was perhaps towards the end of July or August 1943. That was when the Greek transports arrived from Greece, and at that time the crematoria worked very often, and it was quite obvious for all the inmates in the camp could see it.
All the people were sent to the crematori--prior to that time the gas chambers. And that was the reason why camouflage was used at the time. That was the artificial trees I mentioned before. The trees of Babitz were cut off and they were set in there, and there were two rows of those trees right around the crematoria and the gas chamber. And apart from that--I believe that was later on--a sort of fence was placed around the trees, just small poles. And on that fence one could see small pieces of rags. Later on, when we could no longer enter, one could not see how the people were sent to the gas chambers. All we could hear were the screams and we could see the pile of smoke coming out of the chimney of the crematoria. And we also used some sort of a camouflage--that was in 1944; that was when the Hungarian Jews arrived-we used a music camouflage. At the time the children were burned on big piles of wood. The crematoria could not work at the time, and therefore, the people were just burned in open fields with those grills. And also children were burned among them. Children were crying helplessly and that is why camp administration ordered that an orchestra be made by a hundred inmates, and should play. They played very loud all the time. They played the Blue Danube or Rosamunde; so that even Court No. IV, Case No. II.
the people in the city of Auschwitz could not hear the screams. Without the orchestra they would have heard the screams of horror; they would have been horrible screams. The people two kilometers from there could even hear those screams, namely, that came from the transports of children. The children were separated from their parents, and then they were put to Section III Camp. Maybe the number of children was several thousand.
And then on one special day they started burning them to death. The gas chambers at the time were out of order--at least one of them was out of order, namely, the one near the crematory; it was destroyed by mutiny in a special Kommando in August 1944. The other three gas chambers were full of the adults and therefore the children were not gassed, but just burned alive.
When one of these SS people sort of had pity with the children, he took the child and beat the head against the stone first before putting it on the pile of fire and wood so that the child lost consciousness. However, the regular way they did it was by just throwing the children on to the pile.
They used to put a sheet of wood, then the whole thing was sprinkled with gasoline, then wood again, and gasoline and wood, and gasoline--and then people were placed on there. Thereafter the whole thing was lit.
Q And what period of time did that continue, Herr Bielski?
A With the children, you mean?
Q Yes.
A That was during those three months when most of the Hungarian transports came in; that was June '44, July, August; approximately around that period of time. However, what I mentioned about the orchestra was around the end of August. Several thousand children were burned to death alive.
Q Herr Bielski, you were asked by the Defense Counsel about food in the camp. Can you state that you saw people die in Auschwitz from undernourishment?
Court No. IV, Case No. II.
A. Yes, I can.
Q Herr Bielski, you stated that the work details brought back the dead workers--the dead and injured workers--to the camp. Was there a camp regulation that you bring back the dead with you from the work?
A Yes, there was; because the dead had to be counted due to the roll call in the morning. They always had to be counted.
Q In other words, the same number of people had to be brought back that were sent out?
A Yes, absolutely.
Q That was true whether the workers were dead or alive?
A Yes; all of them had to come back.
Q Herr Bielski, you stated, I believe, that you had worked for a newspaper organization.
A For a newspaper? In Auschwitz, you mean?
Q No, earlier than that.
A Oh, yes, before the arrest, you mean; yes.
Q Isn't it true that-- Is it not true that in your newspaper work you made it your business to remember names and to develop your memory for names?
A I did not quite get the question. I don't hear it quite well.
(Question repeated) Yes, it is true.
Q Herr Bielski, you were asked if you had been shown the pictures of the defendant Sommer. Is it not true that this morning before Court you told the Prosecution that at the time you identified Pohl you recognized Eirenschmalz and Sommer as having been in the dock?
A I did not understand your question. (Question repeated) Yes, that is correct.
Q Is it true that before you testified in Court on Friday that you were shown the picture of the defendant Pohl?
A I did not get that question. I can not hear it very well. Would you repeat it, please? (Question repeated) That is not true.
Q Herr Bielski, were you not shown a number of pictures and Court No. IV, Case No. II.
asked to identify some of the pictures? Herr Bielski, I am not talking about subsequent to your testimony; I am talking about on Friday; prior to your testimony were you shown a number of pictures and asked if you could identify any of those pictures?
A No, that is not correct; no pictures were shown to me.
Q Herr Bielski, did you hear what the defendant Sommer said to you when you pointed him out in the dock?
A Yes, I did. He called me a pig.
MR. ROBBINS: May I state for the record, Your Honors, that I also heard the defendant Sommer make that remark to the witness.
BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q Is that the man you saw beat an inmate over the head with a brick?
A Yes, that is the man.
MR. ROBBINS: Prosecution has no further questions to ask.
DR. SEIDL: I have one more thing, Your Honors, to say. May I do so?
THE PRESIDENT: Did you say one?