Then in the evening they had to be carried back to the camp on a special cart which was pushed and dragged by the inmates. Naturally, it also occurred once in a while that these inmates who were very weak in the morning when they went to work died in the course of the day.
Q. This wire cage that you have mentioned -- is that just a place where they locked them up during the day, rather than transport them back -
A. No, they were not locked up; they had just a sort of gate there which was also a wire gate which was hanged onto hinges. I can't tell you if there was a handle there or not.
Q. Could they get out of this wire cage?
A. Of course they could, but the inmates were not in a position to do so because they were so weak that they had collapsed.
Q. And they had to stay in this wire cage all day until the Kommando went back into the camp. Is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, was there frequently water in these clay pits that the inmates had to work in?
A. Yes, it happens automatically because if I make a whole into the earth, then water will come out automatically.
Q. Were the inmates provided with rubber boots?
A. Only part of them had rubber boots, namely, that particular group of them who were in the clay pit itself. And they also had special knives to cut the clay, and then, of course, there were a few Capos (foremen) who had rubber boots because they had to go down to the pit once in a while -- or regularly -- in order to inspect the work.
Q. Well, did most of the inmates who had to work in water have rubber boots?
A. I could not tell you that today.
Q. Now, were beatings a frequent occurrence on the work?
A. Beating was a daily occurrence in the Klinker Works.
Q. Did many of the inmates die?
A. The percentage of the inmates who died in the Klinker Works was -- according to my opinion -- considerably greater then in the general camp.
Q. Well, now, can you give us some idea of the monthly death rate in the Klinker Works?
A.According to the statements which the first male nurse for the inmates told me, a certain man by the name of Jasmias, who was in charge of the hospital there -- or rather, had built it up -- the monthly death rate in the camp of Neuengamme amounted to probably between eight and twelve percent. He also mentioned that curing the construction time of the Klinker Works, the death rate had climbed up to twenty percent, particularly during the winter months. I also remember that he said, "Once we had 1200 dead this month" -- and I believe that was in the month of January, 1943.
Q. Now, how long did you work -
A. Excuse me, I have to correct myself at one point. ...yes, it must have been January, 1943.
Q. Now, for how many weeks did you work pushing the lorries, and doing other work?
A. I worked there for approximately two months and a half.
Q. And what effect did that work have on your health?
A. After two months and a half I shrunk down from 136 pounds to 90 pounds.
Q. Well, did you feel that you could continue that work much longer after you had been there two and a half months?
A. No, not much. I knew that after three or four weeks in the camp I would have gone through the crematory.
Q. What had happened to some of your fellow inmates who had been assigned to the Klinker Works at the same time you were? Were many of them still around after two and a half months?
A. As far as these people who worked in the Klinker Works, itself, most of them had come down to such an extent, physically, that is, that they were either in the hospital or then they were transferred from that Kommando due to complete exhaustion.
Q. And I take it that some of them had died?
A. Certainly, many of them died because many of my comrades who arrived with me in March died in the hospital.
Q. Now, how is it you escaped the continuation of work in the Klinker Works?
A. I was lucky insofar as I had a Capo who was with me in my billet ask me how much longer "do you want to stand that?" And I answered, "I imagine that in three or four weeks I will be through the crematory." He then asked me, "You don't actually need that, do you?" And I asked him why not; whereupon he said, "But you are drawing money, aren't you?" I said, "Why; what do you mean by that?" He answered again, "Well, I smoke a lot." Whereupon I declared, "Well, maybe we can get together on that." Whereupon he said, "You can come and work with my Arbeit Kommando, and all you have to do is just work 'with your eyes.'" To 'work with your eyes' meant in the camps that you only had to work hard when either the first Klinker Capo or an SS man came nearby. The Capo, himself, who sometimes also beat us and pushed us to work, left those alone who helped him with money or cigarettes.
Q. So you bribed your Capo to get an easier job; is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Where did you get the money?
A. My father sent me money regularly every month.
Q. What work did you get?
A. As a result of bribing the Capo I did work on certain earthmoving work which was easy work. And then I became a column clerk, and, as such, I was assigned as a clerk with the welding detachment, due to the Capos who spoke for me to the camp commander.
Q. Now, how was the clothing which was issued for work with DEST?
A. The clothing consisted of shirts -- most of the time without buttons -- then the zebra trousers, a thin zebra jacket, and the zebra cap. In other words, the whole material was just striped. In the winter we received the very thin underwear and a so-called zebra coat.
Q. Well, was the clothing sufficient to protect you against the cold?
A. In the winter the clothing was absolutely insufficient.
Q. What sort of shoes were issued to you?
A. We received on the Klinker Works wooden shoes with the upper part of leather -- that was a special term we used there --"leather top."
Q. Did you receive any socks?
A. Socks were not issued, generally speaking; we received special rags for our feet.
Q. Were there many cases of bad feet?
A. That was one of the most-occurring diseases in the camp.
Q. What were some of the other diseases?
A. The other diseases were edema; that is, water came into the body of the inmate due to under-nourishment. That was in connection with the fact that the main food for the inmates consisted of thin soup. Apart from that we received a loaf of bread per day which was supposed to be sufficient for the whole day, and, therefore, we did not have any concrete food. The result was under-nourishment. And then followed dysentery and edema.
Q. Do you know whether or not Mummenthey and Pohl ever visited the Klinker Works in Neuengamme?
A. I can only recall that from Neuengamma, insofar as a friend of mine from the office of the DEST told me "Mummenthey was here today." And another time he told me "Pohl was here today." At the time I did not know who Mummenthey was.
Q. And you did not see either one of them personally? Is that right?
A. I did not know the defendants at the time, and I would not have said that this is Mr. Pohl... this is Mummenthey, because after all they were not introduced to me.
Q. But you can testify that you were told by inmates that Mummenthey and Pohl were visiting the Klinker Works in Neuengamma? Is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct, but I can also give you the name of the witness who was in that camp ever since the beginning of the construction of the camp in Neuengamma, and he was employed at the work office in Neuengamma.
Q. What was his name?
A. His name was Bickel -- Helmut Bickel: B-i-c-k-e-l.
Q. Witness, I don't think you have to talk quite so loud. Now, can you tell us the name of the Director of the Klinker Works at Neuengamma?
A. As far as I can remember, his name was Mr. Kahn-- K-a-h-n, and the Manager, Rath.
Q. And what were the hours of work at the Klinker Works?
Q. And what were the hours of work at the klinker works?
A. It depended on various things. In summer, for instance, we started at 6 o'clock in the morning. In the winter we had to stand on roll call until the mist had disappeared. In the evening we returned to the camp at 6 o'clock so that the regular hours in summer amounted to 12 hours.
Q. And were any of the inmates ever -- strike that -How many days a week did you work?
A. We worked there from Monday to Saturday and Sunday we worked until 12 o'clock.
Q. Suppose one of the inmates committed some sort of disobedience or misdemeanor, now was he punished?
A. Different cases -- a report was made by the plant manager or, rather, by the man who was right under him, directly to the camp administration.
Q. What sort of punishment would he be given?
A. Generally speaking, a report was given to the Political Department, whereupon the inmate was then convicted to receive clubbings, from 25 to 50 of them, depending on the severity of the misdemeanor.
Q. Convicted to receive what?
A. Beatings.
Q. Did any of the inmates have to work longer than 12 hours a day which you have described and the 6 hours on Sunday?
A. Well, that was SK or the straf company, which had to work on top of the work done during the day as punishment. However, I myself remember the conditions in Oranienburg better than the ones in the other camp because the Strafkommando of the Klinker works had to leave the camp after and work and they also had to work Sunday all day long.
Q. Is it true that in May, 1943, you were sent to Oranienburg?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Was Oranienburg a concentration camp?
A. Oranienburg was a concentration camp near Berlin.
Q. It was called Sachsenhausen, was it not?
A. The name of the camp itself was Sachsenhausen. There was a place near which the camp was was Sachsenhausen. That is a small village there.
Q. How many inmates did they have in Oranienburg, Sachsenhausen, when you came there?
A. I could not give you the exact figure of Sachsenhausen, itself. I only remember to have seen the report of the so-called office; that must have been in the course of 1944, during which time there were 40,000 to 45,000 inmates in Sachsenhausen, including the outside Kommandos which belonged to Sachsenhausen.
Q. What work were you assigned to?
A. When I reported to Arbeitsfuehrer, or the work leader, when they said all political prisoners should come out, we were employed at the SS bread factory as clerks.
Q. And what was the name of this bread factory?
A. The name of the factory was German Food Works, G.M.B.H.
Q. Deutsche Lebensmittlewerke, is that right?
A. Yes, that is correct, "Deutsche Lebensmittelwerke."
Q. And do you know whether or not that concern was controlled by one of the offices of the WVHA?
A. Yes, the manager of the plant, as far as I remember, was also the Chief of the Amt. III, of the SS WVHA.
Q. "W-III"?
A. Yes, Amt. W-III.
Q. Who was the local manager of the bread factory?
A. The local manager of the bread factory was SSUnterscharfuehrer, I believe, Meissner.
Q. And what were the working hours?
A. We left the Klinker works in the morning where we had our barracks shortly after 4 o'clock. The work started at 4:30 in the morning. That is, we left for work before the rest of the camp had even woken up.
Q. How late did you work?
A. We worked, generally speaking, until 5 or 6 o'clock in the afternoon and during the last few days when too much bread had to be baked, particularly for Sunday, we sometimes also worked until 8 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q. I am going to ask you again to speak just a little lower, Herr Kruse. You can talk in a normal tone of voice. Now, I take you, you found the work in the bread factory somewhat easier than in the klinker works in Oranienburg, is that right?
A. The work in itself was easier, for the very simple reason -- the fact was every camp inmate received a certain bread allowance on top of his camp food. He received one quarter of bread per day.
Q. And, of course, you were working inside in a building?
A. I myself, I must add something before I say that. At the beginning I was not used as a bookkeeper, as I had been assigned, but I was told "You can work here as a worker." I then did every work there was, both outside and inside the building, for instance, to move coal, chop wood, to load and unload flour, and all this kind of work that belongs in a bread factory.
Q. Now, Herr Kruse, did there come a time when you were assigned to office work in Amt. W-1, of the WVHA?
A. I don't quite understand the question. Would you repeat?
(question repeated by interpreter)
A. I was only assigned to Amt. W-I later on.
Q. And when was that?
A. I guess that it was in January of 1944.
Q. And who was Chief of Amt. W-I at that time?
A. The Chief of Amt. W-I was an Obersturmbannfuehrer Mumenthey, obersturmbannfuehrer at the time.
Q. Would you recognize Mumenthey now if you saw him?
A. Yes, I would.
Q. Would you indicate which position in the dock, if see him there?
A. That is the third defendant in the last row starting from the right.
MR. MC HANEY: I ask that the record show that the Defendant Mumenthey has been properly identified.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so show.
Q. What sort of work did you do when you began work with Amt. W-I in January, 1944.
A. I worked there in the Legal Department of the Dest, and took dictations from the law expert, at the time, Dr. Schneider, but as I took them in shorthand and transferred them into typewriting.
Q. And Dr. Schneider was in the Legal Department of Amt. No. 1?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. He was subordinate to Mumenthey?
A. Yes, he was subordinated to the Amt. chief at the time, who was Mumenthey.
Q. I understand you spend about 4 months in that position doing secretarial work.
A. I was in the office of the W-1, Stenotyping, for a period of 4 months.
Q. Did you transfer to another department in Amt. W-I?
A. After I had a certain argument with Dr. Schneider, I was sent to the Revision Department of the same Amt.
Q. How long did you stay there?
A. I worked in the Revision Department for approximately two months.
Q. And then did you go to the Budget office of Amt. W-1?
A. I was then transferred to the main Hauptkasse or then to the main Hauptkasse to the DST.
Q. That was still in Amt. W-1?
A. The main budgeting office was part of DST.
Q. And you stayed there until January, 1945?
A. Yes. I stayed there until the 18th of January, 1945.
Q. In your positions in Amt. W-1, did you have occasion to take dictation and transcribe letters, correspondence, to the various enterprises of Dest?
A. Yes, I did. My work mainly consisted of the correspondence with the single plants and with the offices in Berlin unter den eichen. We were concerned with the Legal Department of the Staff W and various other agencies which I can't recall at this present moment.
Q. Do you remember the names of any of the men on Staff W?
A. Staff W? I remember the name of Dr. Hohberg in the Staff B and then, without having anything to do with myself, the name Dr. Volk repeatedly occurred.
Q. That was Dr. Hohberg, is that right.
A. Yes, Dr. Hohberg, Yes.
Q. Dr. Volk - V-o-l-k?
A. V-o-l-k, that is correct.
Q. Was it one of the tasks of Staff W to administer the business affairs of the FWB combine?
A. Yes, as far as I can recall we had some sort of dealings with the DWB. In any case, the name DWB occurred several times in the correspondence.
Q. Do you know whether or not the DWB was a holding company which controlled the other industries of Amtsgruppe W?
A. From a chart I saw at the time I detected the fact that all the agencies of the Dest, DEST, the Allach, for instance, the Freudentnal Company, and various other agencies were under the DWB.
Q. Now, can you testify whether or not Amt. W-1 received periodical reports from all the industries run by it?
A. As far as I know, periodical reports only came from the single plants.
Q. And these plants for the most part were in the concentration camp, were they not?
A. As far as I can remember, all of them were concentration camp plants.
Q. About how many concentration camps did they have plants in?
A. I can't give you the exact figure today out of memory. I only know that from all the so called distributor which was affixed to the correspondence, for instance, that the brick factory or the tile factory in Hamburg Ol Berste, Neuengamme, Stutthof, Hopperhil, were manufactured there and also the quarry factories or those handling the stones, the granite plants, which, as far as I know, start at Mauthausen, and they also belonged to Oranienburg II.
Then there was Flossenbuerg, Natzweiler, to the concentration camp in the concentration camp, if I am remembering it, and at the moment I cannot recall any other plants or their names.
Q. They received financial reports in Amt. W-1 from those enterprises?
A Financial reports did not go to the legal department as far as I remember. They went to the revision department, which dealt with those matters.
Q You were in the revision department for two months?
A Yes, I was.
Q You know that you saw financial reports in the revision department, is that right?
A I saw thousands of the various plans or at least those plans which were grouped together, the others subdivided after W I-1 and W I-2. For instance, I wrote that myself on a special machine.
Q What sort of correspondence did you have occasion to observe in the legal office of Amt W-1?
A Generally speaking Justice Schneider dealt with the question of the contracts, for instance as to the release contracts and credit contracts.
Q Do you remember the case of the WVHA taking over the porcelain factory Bohemia-Prague?
A In Amt W-1 there was a file Bohemia.
Q What can you tell us about that transaction of taking over the porcelain factory Bohemia-Prague by Amt W-1?
A If I have to tell you that from memory and try to reconstruct it from memory, I would have to state the following. The Bohemia was the greatest Czech porcelain factory known; and it originally belonged to two Jews, who now live in London. They had emigrated to London. I furthermore believed and understood from those files that the packet of shares, in other words, the greatest number of shares, in Bohemia were in the vault of a bank in London. The actual owners had a trustee at the Bohemia who managed the business interests of these two original owners, or at least presented them.
I also remember that certain orders had been issued at the time by SS-WVHA to get in touch with representatives in order to transfer the Bohemia to the SS-WVHA. I furthermore recall that the trustee at the time declined to get into economic dealings with the SS. I furthermore remember that trustee at the time had been arrested and that his wife committed suicide by poisoning herself and that no clear conclusion could be reached. Certain letters were sent back. Correspondence by the legal department was had as to why the question of Bohemia could not be forced to an issue.
I further believe, too, that there was a question which arose in the legal department and was answered at the Office of the Exterior. There were certain misgivings about an English redemption on the question of the confiscation of the Bohemia. How the question was solved later on I could not tell you at the present moment. It was then that I resigned from the legal department myself.
Q Do you know whether Pohl ever managed to get the Bohemia porcelain concern into the "W industry?
A That he could take over the shares as such I doubt very much because all the shares were in London. However, the shares had nothing to do with the economic dealings themselves.
Q Well, whether or not he could take over the shares, did he take over the factory?
A I believe I am able now to remember that a certain man by the name of Director Hechtfischer started certain conversations and conferences about that matter.
Q Now, Herr Kruse, can you tell us whether Mummenthey ever visited the Dest enterprises in the concentra tion camps?
A Well, I had to assume that on the basis of the travel reports which also appeared in the legal department once in a while; and this Dr. Schneider referred to this visit in the camp sometimes. He referred to discussions he had with the Amt Chief.
Q Did this correspondence which you transcribed for Schneider sometimes concern Mummenthey's trips to concentration camps?
A Well, concentration camps, no. I can't say concentration camps; but at least I can say to the various factories of the Dest.
Q These factories were in concentration camps; is that right?
A These factories generally speaking were in the concentration camps or at least annexed to the concentration camps, for the simple reason that a concentration camp was not formed first and then a factory of the Dest was founded, but it was the other way around, maybe that a Dest factory was set up first or at least was planned, near which a concentration camp was added or built.
Q In other words, the concentration camp was built on with the view in mind of supplying a Dest industry with concentration camp labor; is that right?
A Yes, quite.
Q Do you remember the case of Stutthof, for example, in that connection?
A In the case of Stutthof I can not recall this case in detail. All I know is that the Sturmbannfuehrer at the time led the conversation for the whole Stutthof. As far as I can remember the man writing the contract at the time was a Mr. Deichgraeber.
Q Can you perhaps tell us the name of the local Dest manager in Mauthausen?
A I do not know the name of the manager from Stutthof itself. However, I can not recall it anyway.
Q. No, I don't mean Stutthof, I mean Mauthausen.
A Oh, Mauthausen. Well, as far as I can recall the correspondence was addressed to a certain Mr. Walther.
Q Walther?
A Walther, yes.
Q Can you by any chance tell us the manager for Dest at Auschwitz?
A I believe that I am in a position to say that a certain man by the name of Ruprecht was in Auschwitz at the time.
Q Ruprecht?
A Yes, Ruprecht. However, there is a possibility that I might be mixing him up with somebody else. However, I think I can say that Ruprecht was there.
Q Now, what operation did Dest have in the Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg concentration camp?
A In Oranienburg two factories wore being operated by the Dest, or, rather, built up. That was the beginning. Later on three factories were directing that. They all went under the name 0-1, 0-2, and Rue. There was a third independent part there by the name of the Central Chemical Laboratories. 0-1 was the so-called tile factories in Oranienburg. 0-2 was the stone manufacturing factory in Oranienburg. Rue was the factory that was making grenades, which was the armament Ruestungs, armament factories which were set up by the Dest and in which the closed combat program was being worked out for the infantry.
Q You mean they made hand grenades in this armament factory; is that right?
A Well, I don't know if they were hand grenades; I believe that they were grenades which could be fired from a very small sort of gun. However, they were also the wing grenades. That is why I believe that they were not hand grenades but special grenades which were released from a very small infantry gun.
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess now for a few minutes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
Court No. II - Case No. 4
THE MARSHAL: All persons in Court will please take your seats.
Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
Q. (By Mr. McHaney): Witness, you have described the Dest enterprises which were operated at the Sachsenhausen Oranienburg concentration camp. Can you tell us approximately how many concentration camp inmates were working in those enterprises?
A. As far as I can remember there were approximately in the large scale brick work in Oranienburg, at the time I was there at the beginning, there were one thousand, and later on when the armament plant was taken over an additional one thousand prisoners were working there. At the Steyr Works there were approximately two and a half thousand prisoners working, that is, as far as I am able to recall that at the present time.
Q. Now, did it happen that some of these inmates had to walk by the offices of Amt W-1 in Oranienburg when they were on their way to work in these Dest enterprises?
A. That only applied to a so-called Speer Command. Those were the inmates who worked at the stone works at Oranienburg. These workers were billeted in the big camp and every day they had to go to the place of work from the camp and they also had to return. However, I believe I am able to say that at that time they saw the daily transports who came to the Klinker Works from the big camp. But he must have seen them at that time because they had to pass by his administrative barracks. These were either prisoners who had been detached or who because of physical exhaustion had to be sent and transferred to the big camp.
Q. Approximately how many inmates were in this commando which was from the big camp and which daily went to the Dest enterprises to work?
A. I have already stated that in my estimation the stone processing plant employed two and one-half thousand prisoners. The B work plant had a thousand and later on two thousand workers.
Q. Can we say that two thousand or twenty-five hundred inmates walked by the office building of W-I at Oranienburg on their way to and from work?
A. It probably will be a figure between two thousand and two thousand five hundred, according to the personnel strength of the detachment.
Q. And if Mummenthey had looked out of his window, he could have seen these workers walking by?
A. I believe so, yes. I believe that I can answer that in the affirmative because I remember that the office of Mummenthey was located at the end of the administrative barracks.
Q. Did you see them?
A. I did not get your question.
Q. Did you see the inmates walking by daily?
A. Yes, I saw them march by when we already were early in the morning at the plant, which was located near the administrative barracks.
Q. What time did they come by? Mummenthey may state that if they came by at a certain time he was not at work that early. What time was it?
A. In the morning they probably passed by there around 7 o'clock.
Q. How about the evening?
A. And in the evening I think they marched out again at 5 or 6 o'clock. It was according to the seasons. When it got dark evenings, became dark earlier, the prisoners of course had to come back to the Camp earlier because security measures were not taken.
Q. What can you tell the Tribunal about the condition of these inmates which you saw walking by outside of your window?
A. I can only say that a large number of these prisoners were in a remarkably low physical condition. I myself have repeatedly seen the prisoners supported and assisted by their comrades, on their shoulders.
Q. Do you know what the nationality of these prisoners was?
A. As far as I can remember, almost all nationalities were represented in the camp, but as far as I can remember the Russians and the Ukrainians were in the majority in the plant. Then we had a large number of Frenchmen, Belgians, Dutchmen, and also Norwegians in the camp Oranienburg. We also had Danes and Norwegians.
Q. Were there any prisoners of war among then?
A. I was not at Mauthausen. In Oranienburg we had a special camp for prisoners of war. And they also had to work in the stone processing plants.
Q. Can you say that among the inmates that you saw walking to and from the stone works of Dest there were prisoners of war?
A. Yes, the group of the prisoners of war marched absolutely under the leadership of somebody in charge - I do not know whether an officer or not but in any case he was leading his column.
Q. What nationality were these prisoners of war?
A. These prisoners of war were Russians.
Q. How could you tell they were Russian prisoners of war?
A. The explanation for this was given to us in the camp itself. I myself, in the big camp of Neuengamme, have seen the sign "Prisoner of War Camp", and on the red triangle, which every political prisoner had to wear a big "R" was superimposed on the triangle.