Court No. II, Case No. 4.
Q Why was this company established?
A The important discussions took place during my absence.
Q What was the legal status of that company?
A It was a G.m.b.H. with limited liability. That under German law is a legal person.
Q What is the essence of G.m.b.H.?
A British Law does not know the G.m.b.H. As far as I know they only know limited companies. In German commercial law we have apart from a limited company an AG which we also consider a legal person, a company with limited liability. That concept of a legal person applies more to private economy. In our legal conceptions, in order to make it clear to this Tribunal, one might say that a limited company, AG, under German law is used for larger enterprises where you have a large amount of capital. With smaller enterprises the form of G.m.b.H. is preferred.
Q Who were the partners in the Eastern German Construction Material Company?
A Partners of that enterprise were the DWB when founded and Pohl personally. That form had to be selected because two partners had to appear in order to form a G.m.b.H. under the G.m.b.H. law, when the company was registered on the commercial register. A partner can sell his share to the other partner which was actually done with these companies which were under the supervision of the WVHA. Whether it applied to the Eastern German Construction Material Works, I don't know.
Q.- Where did the capital come from?
A.- The DWB at first had advanced the capital to Mr. Pohl. Later on the shares were handed over to the German Reich, to the agency of the German Reich represented by the Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of German Nationhood. Thereby, the DWB was repaid the advanced capital by the Reich.
Q.- Who was the manager of the Eastern German Construction Material Works?
A.- The manager of that firm was, at first, Dr. Salpeter.
Q.- Did you, according to the contract, or any other way, fulfil any function with that company?
A.- No.
Q.- Was there a difference between the duties of the Eastern German Construction Material Works and those of Main Department 3-A-4?
A.- Not at first; the economic tasks were the same. Later on, when Main Department 3-A-4 was promoted to an office a second company came and joined it, the Clinker Cement.
Q.- Where were the Eastern German Construction Material Works located?
A.- They were located in Posen.
Q.- Did Main Department 3-A-4 have its office also in Posen?
A.- At first, 3-A-4 was located in Berlin, until the first of October, 1940. From then onwards, it went to Posen.
Q.- Why did they go to Posen?
A.- Dr. Bobermin wanted to be separated from Dr. Salpeter. Dr. Salpeter was interested only in those enterprises which worked with inmates. Dr. Bobermin did not wish to have anything to do with such enterprises. As a matter of principle he disliked the idea that prisoners were being used. Dr. Salpeter also kept interfering with Dr. Bobermin's management, wherefor Dr. Bobermin suggested to have the agency transferred to Posen.
His suggestion he motivated towards Pohl and Salpeter, by saying that the Agency should be closer to the enterprises.
Q.- On the basis of what facts did the transfer become possible?
A.- The transfer would not have been possible if Main Department 3-A-4 had been joint and had mutual tasks with the other Main departments. The duties of the Eastern German Building Material Works had nothing to do with the Main Department and the other companies. It was a completely new assignment and, therefore, a complete disengagement became possible. Dr. Bobermin in Berlin was practically no longer necessary.
Q.- Were you still working for the Main Department 3-A-4 after the transfer to Posen?
A.- No.
Q.- Why did you leave your position at the time?
A.- Dr. Dalpeter was frequently called up by Pohl and wanted to have information about unimportant matters. As he was unable to do that, an expert was to remain in Berlin who would maintain liaison with the Main Department in Posen. For that reason I, as a liaison man, remained behind in Berlin. In addition to that, there was the fact that Dr. Bobermin negotiated frequently with Reich agencies and organizations of the Reich economy. I had to prepare the dates and the negotiations.
Q.- What did you do after 3-A-4 had gone to Posen?
A.- I had to look after, for instance, the supply of raw material, coal, lubricants, cars, railroad tracks, furniture for the apartments belonging to the managers, office furniture, and so forth. Also, I had to maintain liaison with the HTO and give legal comments to the instructions issued by that agency which were then sent on to Posen by Dr. Saleter provided with his signature.
Q.- Did you have the authority to issue orders to Office 3-A-4, or the Central Works as a liaison man?
A.- I had no such authority. I was really an expert. Also I could not have the authority to issue orders for the reason that the managers were directly under Dr. Salpeter.
Q.- How large was your office, as a liaison man?
A.- I had one secretary and I was the only expert.
Q.- How much did you get paid for this work?
A.- I did not get paid for this work. I received my salary from the agency which had employed me in peacetime, and as a soldier I had my army pay.
Q.- Please look at Document NO-1299 which is Exhibit 35. It is in Document Book 2, page 54 of the English document book. Is this document correct?
A.- I am afraid I haven't found it yet. Volume two, page 64, you mean?
Q.- Yes, page 64 of the German document book.
A.- This document is quite correct. There were permanent differences of opinion between Dr. Bobermin and Dr. Salpeter. Dr. Salpeter was interested only in enterprises employing inmates, namely the DEST; whereas Dr. Bobermin had nothing to do with that company. For that reason Dr. Hohberg was interpolated as an auditor, and he made the suggestion to the office chief to have the Main Department 3-a-4 removed from Office 3-A. It became Staff "O".
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think we have the same document that you are talking about. What is the number of the document?
DR. GAWLIK: It is Document NO-1299.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that isn't Exhibit 39. What is the exhibit number?
DR. GAWLIK: Thirty-five.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 1299? All right.
DR. GAWLIK: One-two-nine-nine.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, now we are together.
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 54 of the English document book.
WITNESS: Should I say something about that document, if the Tribunal please?
THE PRESIDENT: Go right ahead.
WITNESS: That document is correct in its contents. There were constant differences of opinion between Dr. Salpeter and Dr. Bobermin, Dr. Salpeter was interested only in enterprises employing inmates, namely the DEST; whereas Dr. Bobermin wished to have nothing to do with that company. For that reason Dr. Hohberg was interpolated as an auditor who made the suggestion to Pohl to have Office 3-A-4 removed from Office 3-A, and to make it Staff "O".
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- For how long a period of time was Staff "O" called that way?
A.- As far as I know, until the autumn of 1941. Then Staff "O" became Office W-2, when the economic enterprises were reorganized.
Q.- How long were you active as the liaison man?
A.- At the end of May of 1941, I, as is shown by Document NO-1299, Exhibit 35, which we have just discussed, became the legal export for the DWB. Apart from that I continued my work as a liaison man until I became the personal expert for Pohl.
That activity was practically without any contents by 1942, because Pohl did everything independly. My work lasted until the end of 1941, with the interruption of two months, when I was given the order to go to Prague as an SS rifle man. I continued to keep the official designation Liaison Man, until about May 1942, but for all practically intents and purposes, it came to an end by the end of 1941.
Q.- In the document referred to, NO-1299, Exhibit 35, which bears the date of 26 May 1941, it says that you were to become the man in charge of the Liaison Office. Tell us something about that.
A.- The term "Man in Charge of the Liaison Office" is wrongly chosen. The liaison office only had one man, and that was I; and, of course, the secretary. Therefore, it should really be called simply "Liaison man". This document would make it appear as if I were to become the liaison man, but I was a liaison man ever since 1940.
Q.- How long did your military training as a rifle man last?
A.- From 15 May to 15 July in Prague.
Q.- What did you do after you had received this military training?
A.- I was given the order after my training to report to the DWB as the legal expert. I was assigned to Dr. Hohberg.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: When was that, please?
A.- That was on July 15, 1941, that is to say, the order might have reached me a few days later.
THE PRESIDENT: 1942?
A.- 1941. 15 July 1941.
THE PRESIDENT: You said that you remained in Berlin as the liaison officer until the end of 1941, and then went to Prague?
A.- No, Your Honors. I received the order when I was still in Berlin on 15 May 1941 as the liaison officer. It was then that the order reached me.
THE PRESIDENT: And you went to Prague for your training as a rifle man?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Now, that was in 1941?
A.- Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And after you finished your training as a rifle man, then you went to the DWB?
A.- To the Main Office, Administration and Economy, and from there to the DWB. The WVHA did not exist at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, this was still in 1941, was it?
A.- 1941, yes, certainly.
THE PRESIDENT: Go ahead.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- Perhaps, witness, you will repeat when you received your military training as a rifle man?
A.- From 15 May to 15 July 1941.
Q.- What was the DWB?
A.- The DWB was a holding company.
Q.- Who were the partners?
A.- Pohl was a partner as a trustee.
Q.- Who was the business manager?
A.- The first business manager was Pohl who was the company representative. The second business Loerner who was also was entitled to represent the company.
Q.- What were the tasks of the company?
A.- The company had the typical tasks of a holding company. As in British and American economic life, you have the property holding companies and the property and managing companies. In my opinion the DWB was up to a point a property holding company, and up to a point the second type of holding company.
Q.- For what reason were you appointed Prokurist of that company?
A.- In the DWB I was given the task to take care of all legal matters. Those under civil law. I had to represent the company in court, but as Pohl could not give me full authority every time, I became the Prokurist because under Paragraph 49 of the German Commercial Legal Code, the Prokurist represents the company in court and outside of court.
And therefore, I did not have to have a full authority every time. For this purpose, I shall quote from the German Commercial Legal Code. I shall quote paragraph 49 of the German Commercial Code of 10 May 1897 of the Reich Legal Gazette, Roman Numeral Two, page 19, paragraph 49: "A prokurist is entitled to represent the company in all types of acts, both in and out of court."
Q.- Did you have any financial, organizational, or personal matters to look after?
A.- No. I was only in charge of legal matters under civil law.
Q.- Please look at Document book 14. There you will find Document NO-544, Exhibit 398, which is on page 72 of the English Document Book. This is an excerpt from the Commercial Register of the DWB.
A.- Would you mind telling me again what Document Book you want?
Q.- 4 on page 70 of the German text and page 72 of the English book.
THE PRESIDENT: Here we go again. What is the Exhibit number.
DR. GAWLIK: 398, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: All right.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q.- NO-544, Exhibit 398. It is an excerpt of the Commercial Register of the DWB, and according to this document you and Dr. Wenner, on 22 November '41, were appointed Prokurists.
A.- The document is quite right.
Q.- Just a moment. Now, please compare the document of 28 August 1943, which is Document No-2163, Exhibit 399, Volume 14, on page 76 in the German Document Book and page 79 of the English Document Book. In that contract another date is given. Which is the right one, and what is the explanation of this contradiction?
A.- Document NO-544, the excerpts of the Commercial Register, is the right one. On 22 November 1941 I was appointed Prokurist. Shortly after that, I was given a contract. This contract has not been submitted by the prosecution. This is how the contract came about. I was paid my salary by the agencies which had employed me in peace-time, the German Gemeindetag. As I had been conscripted into the Waffen SS for military service, my peace-time employers -- the Vice President Dr. Weitler-said that for the work which I was doing for the private enterprise they would not be able to go on paying my salary. I told this to Pohl and Pohl said he would, for the duration of the war, take me on as a full-time officer and member of the Waffen SS. I refused to do that because I did not wish to become a Party official. Thereupon Pohl said I could also choose the salary of a captain in the Waffen-SS. I refused to do that also because that would have been much less than the money paid me by my peace-time employers. On the other hand, I had double expenses. Those connected with my own expenses and those of my family which I couldn't have taken care of my captain's pay. Thereupon Pohl gave me a contract of employment for the duration of my activity with the DWB, i.e., for the duration of the war. That contract was concluded in 1941. The prosecution, I am sure, must have the contract in its 14 boxes of files. It has the same form as the document NO-2163, but only until paragraph 10. The correctness of my testimony becomes clear also from this contract of employment, especially from paragraph 15 where it says about this contract: "All former arrangements are cancelled."
THE PRESIDENT: We will recess until 1:45.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 hours, 25 July 1947)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1345 hours, 25 July 1947).
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
LEO VOLK - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Before the recess you commented on Document 2163, Exhibit 399, which is contained in Prosecution Document Book No. 14, on page 76 of the German and on page 79 of the English text.
With regard to this document the Prosecution, on page 1008 of the German transcript, has made the following statement:
"This is a contract between the DWB and Volk according to which Volk has been employed as a business manager."
Is that statement correct?
A No.
Q Were you a business manager or were you a Prokurist in the DWB?
A I was only a Prokurist. This becomes evident very clearly from the document.
Q Please tell us the difference between a business manager and a Prokurist.
A The authority of the business manager goes much further than the authority of a Prokurist. The business manager is authorized to carry out all executive business which is required by the enterprise or the trade. He has almost the same authority as the owner of an enterprise. The Prokurist, however, according to German law, has the authority to do certain work to an extent which is prescribed by law. In the enterprises of the DWB, the business manager delegated that authority to him. According to commercial law - and specifically according to German commercial law - the Prokurist for example, cannot sell any property, and he is not allowed to sign any inventory - or any balance sheets. I know from my studies that, for example, according to Swiss law and according to French law, the authority of a Prokurist goes further than in German law.
Q In paragraph two of the employment contract it is stated that you have to carry out the business in the manner of a regular merchant. Does this show that you were in charge of the DWB concern?
A No, this is just one clause from the German commercial law. Every employee of a commercial enterprise who does executive work is obliged to carry out his work in the manner of a regular merchant. For his position in the enterprise and for the extent of the activity this does not prove anything.
Q Did your employment as a Prokurist in the DWB have any legal importance?
A No.
Q Can you give us any details about that?
A The business managers of the DWB, G.m.b.H, could act independently because both of them were alone authorized to deputize. Pohl would not have tolerated it if I - since I held such a low rank would have put my signature next to his. Furthermore, the Prokurists as becomes evident from the document, from the excerpt from the commercial register - could only deputize together with the business manager. That is to say, I could act together with Georg Loerner or when I wanted to sign I could sign together with Pohl. This shows quite clearly that the appointment to the position of a Prokurist was only a formal matter and did not have any importance whatsoever. After all, if a business manager was alone authorized to deputize he didn't have to use a Prokurist.
DR. GAWLIK: For the record I would like to state that the document to which the witness referred is Document NO-544. It is Exhibit 398, and it is on page 70 of the German and page 72 of the English text in Document Book 14.
Q. Now, please take a look at Document NO-1563, Exhibit 392 in Document Book XIV. Doesn't your statement contradict this document, which shows that you participated in the discussions about the balance sheets?
A. No, I only attended the balance sheet discussions in order to take care of the record.
Q. In these conferences were any questions discussed about the compensation for inmates or any other matters which pertained to inmates?
A. No, the balance sheets were just very briefly discussed and the discussion was extremely limited. The balance sheets were just looked over, so to speak. We never could do it fast enough to suit Pohl. He was not interested at all in the figures and he was not interested in profits, because he didn't understand the importance of money. When we talked about the turnover and production, then he was very much interested.
Q. Was the DWB a part of the SS?
A. No.
Q. Was the DWB an SS enterprise?
A. In order to decide this question, it will have to be explained first of all what an SS enterprise actually is. By an SS enterprise I would understand an enterprise where three prerequisites exist: 1, The corporation capital must be within the hands of the SS. 2. Only members of the SS can work there predominantly, and 3. the profit must go to the SS in order to finance its aims. In my opinion, however these prerequisites were not fulfilled in the case of the DWB.
To point 1, the capital of the enterprise was not in the hands of the SS, but it was with the German Reich. If the capital had been in the hands of the SS, then the Reich Treasurer of the NSDAP would have disposed over it. According to the Law for the coordination and uniformity of party and State of 1 December 1939 and according to paragraph 6 of the Executive Regulations, which were issued together with this law on the 29th of March, 1935, organizations of the Party and after all the SS was one of them, could not have any property of their own.
Only the NSDAP could own property, and I want to quote this law.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness has told us what the law is. He needn't read it to us. He has told us what it provides.
THE WITNESS: I didn't hear anything.
DR. GAWLIK: Do not quote the law, but just continue.
A. Only the Reich Treasurer Schwarz disposed over this property. However, he never had that function with the DWB. He even refused to have the property of the DWB examined by his officials of the Reich Treasury. These officials never audited the DWB and I heard stories that the Reich Treasurer Schwarz had refused to do so.
To Point 2, the employees in the DWB concerned were not for the most part SS-members. As far as I can look at the matter today, only a very small fraction of the employees were members of the SS.
To 3, the profits did not go to the SS and they did not go to the partners either. In practice, however, the profits were never divided up to the year 1942. Up to that time no profits worth mentioning existed and in the year 1943 the profits were used for investments in the various companies. In 1944 the balance sheets had not been compiled yet. Early in January, 1945, I left the business management in practice, because some time later I was assigned to a unit in the field, upon my own request.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: For what companies was the DWB the holding company?
THE WITNESS: I wanted to refer to the DWB later on, Your Honor, however, I will answer your question right away. The DWB was a holding company for all the enterprises, where it owned part of the capital. Let us take, for example, Enterprise A and Enterprise B. Enterprise A is a Holding Company. Enterprise B is the subsidiary company. Now, if the shares of Enterprise B are bought by the Enterprise A, then Enterprise A is a Holding Company for Enterprise B.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Now will you please answer my question. Read the question to him again, please. Will you please tell me now what companies the DWB was the Holding Company for?
THE WITNESS: Then I will have to name all the 50 companies to you, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Not necessarily name them, but to whom did they belong?
THE WITNESS: That is a very difficult legal question.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Let me ask you another question. I don't want legal treatises. I want an answer to my questions. The DWB was the holding company for the SS Economic Enterprises, was it not?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Then the DWB was allied closely affiliated with the SS being the Holding Company for the SS Economic Enterprises?
THE WITNESS: The only connection, -
JUDGE PHILLIPS: You can answer it yes or no and then I will let you explain it.
THE WITNESS: I don't think so, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Yes or no.
JUDGE TOMS: The German reporters aren't getting this.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: I will repeat my question. Can you hear me now?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Since the DWB was the holding company for the SS Economic Enterprises, wouldn't you then say that the DWB was an organization that was closely allied and affiliated with the SS?
THE WITNESS: The affiliation, I can only see in the person of Pohl.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: Wasn't the DWB the Holding Company for the Economic SS Enterprises, the W Enterprises?
THE WITNESS: The DWB was a holding Company. The enterprises which were affiliated with it were called the SS enterprises. That's how it was in my time. However, whether they actually were SS enterprises I wouldn't know and the other people didn't know that either.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That answers my question. That's all.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, what do you mean by an SS enterprise?
A. I have just named the three prerequisites to you. Do you want me to repeat those answers to you once more?
THE PRESIDENT: No, no. We heard it. We heard that answer, the three prerequisites.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, please name an enterprise for which the DWB was a Holding Company.
A. Well, let me mention the Mattoni, AG and it is best if we use an AG for an example and then we try with a G.M.B.H.
Q. Please prove to us that the Mattoni AG fulfilled the three prerequisites. Please tell us whether the three prerequisites apply to the Mattoni Ag, 1. The Capital must be in the hands of the SS, 2, the employees were members of the SS, and 3, whether or not the profit went to the SS.
A. I ask the Tribunal to look at the chart under Office W-III. The Mattoni AG was included in Office W-III. It was an enterprise where 92% of the shares were held by the DWB. The shares belonged to the DWB. The Board of Directors at that time consisted of SS Unterfuehrer Moeckel, and a civilian employee by the name of Wilhelm Reichenbach. Already here at the top level we have a civilian and an SS officer. Both of them together, however, were only authorized to deputize. The personnel did not consist of members of the SS. The plant managers, who were located in the Budeten-District also were not members of the SS, at that time. That was in the year 1942. The workers and the employees were not members of the SS either; in the case of the Mattoni AG the matter becomes quite clear already. The profits were only divided up to 5%, according to the German Stock Holder's Law, which was valid at that time and the regulations which then existed. 5% of these dividends went to the 8% which did not belong to the DWB and the other 5% went to the DWB.
The profits of the DWB, however, were never used to finance the SS. After all, as is known by this time, the Waffen-SS was financed by Office A-I of the Office Group. The General-SS was financed by the Reich Treasury. These matters were also dealt with in the office group by Office A-I. I do not know this for certain, but in my opinion the Mattoni AG was not an SS-enterprise, although I can not claim that this is correct. Now let us take the G.m.b.H. I don't want to mention an enterprise which employed inmates, but I want to take a civilian enterprise, the Klinker Cement, G.m.b.H. The shares of the Klinker Cement G.m.b.H., belonged to the DWB,G.m.b.H. The employees of the Klinker Cement G.m.b.H. and the first manager were members of the SS. The Prokurist and two technical administrators were civilian employees. One of them was a member of the SS. The overwhelming majority of the employees were civilian workers. The Polish and German workers who amounted to thirteenthousand were not members of the SS for the most part. The profits, whenever they were distributed, were given to the DWB. The DWB, however, did not finance the SS. That is my opinion. However, Your Honor, I never calculated about these things during the time I was in office, and I only contemplated these things in the time when I was imprisoned at Minden by the British. Then I began to think over this matter very seriously, and I looked at the legal aspects of this question.
THE PRESIDENT: What did the DWB do with the profits which it received from the "W" Industries?
A In the year of 1942, as far as I know, no profits existed. In 1943 the DWB again gave the money to the subsidiary companies so that investments could be made with it or an adjustment of profits and losses took place, because after the year 1943, according to my very superficial knowledge and I never worked on financial questions after that time, great losses had been incurred. In the year 1944 no balance sheets were compiled anymore and at that time I was not with the office anymore.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know what a dividend is?
A Yes.
Q It is a profit, isn't it, which can be distributed to the owners of the business?
AAccording to German law, you only have dividends in the case of an AG.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Let's take the profits, whether you call it a dividend, or something else. Did the DWB ever make any profit?
A Yes, in 1943.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. What did they do with it? What did they do with the profits?
A The profits were given by the DWB to the subsidiary companies in order to make investments. These investments consisted of the procurement of new machinery.
THE PRESIDENT: They put the profits back into the business; they expanded. They improved the business with the profits?
A Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did they ever declare a dividend, that is, pass a dividend out to the owners?
A No, I do not know anything about it.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it is your opinion that the "W" enterprises were not SS enterprises?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that is in spite of the fact that Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl was head of the enterprises, and every Amt was headed by an SS officer, that is, Mummenthey, Bobermin, Moeckel, Vogel, those were all SS officers, but the business that they managed did not belong to the SS?
A No.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you think they were there for? Why was each Amt headed by an SS man, if the SS had no interest in the business?
A Your Honor, Pohl was a representative of the German Reich as a General in the Waffen-SS. In this capacity he did not act on behalf of the SS, because the Waffen-SS was a part of the Reich, while the General-SS belonged to the Party. If I say, therefore, that it was not an SS enterprise, then, of course, I mean that it was not an enterprise which was owned by the Party. That is why I quoted the law about the Coordination and Uniformity of the Party and the State. That is what we understand by SS enterprises before 1945. Let me give you an example, Your Honor. In the German Reich we had the VIAG, the United Industrial Stockholders' Companies, and they were under the supervision of the Reich Minister of Finance, and the Reich Minister of Economics. If an official, or if several officials of these ministries are appointed business managers, or members of the board of directors in the individual stockholders companies, then we do not only say that this enterprise is owned by the Reich Ministry of Finance, or the Reich Ministry of Economics, but then we must also say that this is an enterprise which is owned by the Reich; consequently, when referring to the WVHA, I say that the capital belonged to the German Reich. Therefore, the DWB, G.m.b.H., was an enterprise which was owned by the Reich. It could have happened just as well that anybody else could have become an office chief; he did not have to be a member of the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the point is that the "W" enterprises were really owned by the Reich, but that they were operated and run by the SS?
A They belonged to the Reich. They were administered by men who either had volunteered or who had been conscripted into the SS. These men were appointed by Pohl, and the only connection to the SS existed in the person of Pohl. Because Pohl was an SS officer, he either used voluntary or conscripted members of the SS and SS officers to fill the high posts in the management.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right. The "W" Enterprises were owned by the Reich, and they were managed and controlled by Pohl, who just happened to be an SS General?
A Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And then he just happened to choose SS officers to manage each industry?
A Not accidentally. He did that purposely.
THE PRESIDENT: Anyway, that is the way it turned out. In the end each enterprise was managed by an SS officer under Pohl, who was an SS General?
A I did not quite understand the translation. (The translation was given again). Yes, that is correct. Perhaps I express myself a little more strongly. The business managers did not have much authority. Pohl gave the orders, and they had to do what Pohl told them to.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, but he would put men at the head of the industries who would take orders from him?
A Yes, that is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: Was it just an accident that they used concentration camp inmates too? Well, that you don't know. You do not know that, do you?
A Your Honor, when the enterprises in the concentration camps were established, I wan not there yet. However, I don't think that this was accidental.
THE PRESIDENT: Neither do I. I don't either.
A No, Your Honor. I agree perfectly with your opinion.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:
Q Witness, I understand you to say that one of the component parts which made up an SS enterprise was that the employees had to be SS men?
A If I have understood the translation correctly then your question, your Honor, was that not all employees had to be members of the SS. Is that correct?
Q No. You indicated that, in order to make up an SS enterprise there had to be 3 conditions. One, SS owned, employed by SS, and profits to the SS. Is that right? Any AG enterprise had to have those three conditions, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Well, with regard to Item No. 2. Do I understand that the employees had to be SS men?
A Yes.
Q Well, give me an illustration of an industry that was manned entirely by SS men.
A I don't know any enterprises which were under the supervision of the WVHA where all the employees were members of the SS.
Q Then this concept which you gave us being an AG SS-enterprise never had any practical existence?
A No, your Honor. May it please the Tribunal, I would like to give you an example for an enterprise which was owned by the Party. I want to direct your attention to the German Labor Front, the DAF, which was a component of the NSDAP. The German Labor Front was an enterprise which was operated by the Party and all employees and workers had to be members of the DAF, the German Labor Front. Afterwards they also had to join the Party. That is what I mean when I speak about enterprises which are strictly operated by the Party.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, to these last few questions I want to ask you several additional questions. First of all, witness, how many components were there in the German Wehrmacht?