Q Now would you answer my question following with a short manner. Did you see the letters "DWB", or did you ever read the name of Loerner as a signature?
A I cannot recall the name Loerner, very well and I really could not say that the name of Loerner sounds familiar to me.
DR. MULLER-THORGEN: No further questions, Your Honor.
DR, HOFFMAN: Dr. Huffman for the Defendant Scheide.
BY DR. HOFFMAN:
Q Witness, what where you paid for your work. What were your wages?
A The inmates received no wages whatsoever, and the inmates up to the year 1944 did not receive wages, nor did he receive a premium. I could not tell you the eact date, however, it must have been in the course of 1944, or so when working premius were issued which amounted to between fifty phennings to two marks fifty per week.
Q Could you buy anything with that money?
A These two marks and one-half were paid to us as wages bonus, or premius, which we could use in the canteen for the inmates. We could sent for rod beets, or saurkraut, or salad, and sometimes a little bit amount for cigarettes.
Q Now many cigarettes could you buy for one coupon, or for one premium coupon?
A You can not formulate your question that way, counsel, because most of the inmates received fifty phennings per week, thus he had in the future a buy of between to forty cigarettes per month in other words, if he had so much money in his account.
Q I see. How many cigarettes could you buy per month if you put all the premius and bonuses together?
A Of course, I can not remember very well, but one cigarette used to count five phennings, so that in most cases we could buy up to forty cigarettes. We could not receive more then that, because there was not so many cigarettes anyway, or there was issued forty cigarettes per month, and I have to say further these were not german cigarettes, for the most part they were russian or Yougoslavia cigarettes.
Q However, you could buy twenty cigarettes per month?
A Yes, we could buy twenty cigarettes per month. In other words the canteen was visited in the block one a week, and then he would receive about five cigarettes on an average, while those other people could buy through direct sale, of a person, or through direct friendship a little bit more DR. HOFFMAN: Thank you. No further questions of the witness, Your Honor DR. FROESCHMANN: Dr. Froeschmann for the defendant Mummenthey BY DR. FROESCHMANN:Q witness, the defense counsel for the defendant Pohl asked you a large number of questions, and which also concerned my client.
I believe I can ask you shorter questions, and you can answer in a shorter manner. However, I wish to ask the following questions in addition to the ones asked before. As a clerk in Amt-W-1 you had the possibility to see the correspondence of the Amt?
A Yes.
Q What kind of correspondence was it?
A On this correspondence I already stated this morning, while answering the questions of the Prosecution, most of the correspondence was written on neutral apper. There was also correspondence of the Amts-W-1 which was of the various economic staff-W, for instance the organization of the WVHA in Berlin.
Q Did you ever see correspondence which bore the signature of the defendant Mummenthey?
A One Dr. Schneider dictated " Chief Amt-W-1" more than plain "w-1", that the German " chief" was not used because I was told that Pohl was the chief. The mail just came in in " W-1" and was submitted to Mr. Mummenthey's office for signatures.
Q Did Mummenthey sign any correspondence in your presence?
A No, I could not say for the simple reason that the office of Mummenthey was not in the barracks itself, but namely in the barracks with the officers of the main administration also.
Q The barracks in which was Mummenthey's office was out near the street, or was it off the street in which these inmates could go in the morning and the afternoon?
A No, they were not off the street. Of course, I could not tell you that exactly up to meters. There was amote control house about fifty meters off of his office, that is where the directions, etc had to be controlled, and Mummenthey's house was between that mote control house and the administration barracks.
Q Do you know or were you ever in the office of Mummenthey?
A I myself never was there in his office. However, I have seen the nameplate on there, because I have had to go to various other offices of the "Dest" in my activity as wage bookkeeper.
Q Do you know the room of the defendant Mummenthey--That was on the street, it is as if it was off the street. I, mean in the other direction?
A If I am not wrong, I believe that was the room that was in the lower left part, that is, to be exact, if one go off from the barracks house and went over to the administration office, that is where it started approximately, if I may rectify that, it was in the direction of the street.
Q. I was told by the defendant Mummenthey, or, rather, I was shown a sketch in which that room is not on the street, but in the opposite direction. Now is that possible?
A. If this had really been the fact, then Mr. Mummenthey at least could have seen that way from another window.
Q. I don't talk about that, witness. I want to know if you actually knew anything of the location of the office of the defendant there?
A. Defense counsel, I know it is very difficult for me today to tell you exactly that his room is at that little corner, or that little corner farther on, because I did not have too many things to do at that office myself. I believe I am not in a position to say for sure. If for instance, Dr. Engler, who was there after mek could give you a more detailed examination because of his activity he must have been in Mr. Mummenthey's office several times.
Q. I may state then, that you yourself today have no knowledge of Mr. Mummenthey's office?
A. Well, no, I could not be too accurate about it.
Q. From the correspondence which you had in your hands, can you recall this day the letter in which the "Dest" was inquiring about the condition of the concentration camp?
A. No, I cannot recall that.
Q. Do you know that at sometime or at some place in one of these letters, the "Dest" or somebody was making certain remarks during that duration which want on to say that inmates were being treated in an inhumane manner?
A. No, I can not say that.
Q. Now I have one more question. This morning you mentioned the name of Bickel.
A. Yes.
Q. When did you see Bickel for the last time and speak to him?
A. I believe that from my recollection since I was released from Nevengamme I never saw hire again. I can only remember then as I received an easier type of work from Bickel after a long time there.
Q. You also don't seem to know anything about the fact that Bickel himself was released from the concentration camp?
A. Yes, I do know something about it.
Q. Do you know on whose proposal he was released?
A. You mean the release? No, I mean he came out when the camp was dissolved that is, Bickel.
Q. Isn't it correct that nickel was released from the concentration camp on the basis of influence by the camp administration, or by the defendant Mummenthey?
A. Well, I can't tell you that in detail, defense counsel, because I did not see Bickel ever since then. However, I take it that I thought he was released with the rest of the transport, because I did not see him, as I told you before.
DR. FROESCHMANN: No further questions from the witness.
DR. HEIM: Dr. Heim for the defendant Dr. Hohberg.
BY DR. HEIM:
Q. Witness, when did you join the Amt-W-1?
A. I said repeatedly in January 1944, defense counsel.
Q. You said that in the course of your activity in the Amt-W-1, that you had read the name "Dr. Hohberg?
A. Yes, I read it and I heard it and particularly in the revision department.
Q. Did you hear the name of Dr. Hohberg, did you hear it or did you read it?
A. I both heard it and read it.
Q. Did you see the name of Dr. Hohberg in any incoming or outgoing correspondence?
A. So far as I can remember I thought it was outgoing correspondence.
Q. Outgoing?
A. Yes, the name of Dr. Hohberg was mentioned repeatedly in these letters, however, I could not say in what connection.
Q. Did you ever see Dr. Hohberg?
A. No, I don't know Dr. Hohberg personally anyway.
Q. Do you know if at the time when you were with Amt-W-1 Dr. Hohberg was in Amt-W-1, I mean, either in the nature of signatures, or for any other activity?
A. No, I cannot give you any information on that, either.
Q. We are coming back to this correspondence now. Was that letter addressed to Dr. Hohberg, do you know whether it left Amt-W-1?
A. That letter to Dr. Hohberg, I want you to formulate it this way, it contained no name, it just Said "Chief Staff B".
Q. What would you say that if you were corrected in your statement, that even in the course of the questioning by the prosecution, that Dr. Hohberg in 1943 had turned his back to the WVHA and in 1944 you also said that you had again read Dr. Hohberg's name in a letter?
A. Yes, I should state in my statement so far as by citing the fact that it could have been possible that the name given could have been back in the files, because we had all the files of the WVHA. and we had to take them out of the air raid shelters, and putting them back into the air raid shelters in the evening, and in the mean time, of course, we had access through those files all the time, and that it could be quite possible in either the first or second case I no longer can give my recollection.
Q. You said, on my third question, as to whether you had seen the name Dr. Hohberg on incoming or outgoing correspondence, that you had seen the name on outgoing correspondence. That means that it was a document or a letter which was leaving your Amt and not, as you said just now, a document which had been in the files for a long time.
A. Defense Counsel, may I repeat that it is quite possible that the legal department told "on special request by Dr. Hohberg" and referred to that letter.
Q. Can you tell me what function Dr. Hohberg allegedly had.
A. No, I did not knew that. All I know is--and all I believe is-that Dr. Hohberg was Chief of Staff W.
Q. You just said in connection with that that Dr. Hohberg had given orders with reference to the Legal Department.
A. I said explicitly that it could have been possible that those were directives given to the Legal Department before. I said "could have been".
Q. I tell you here now, witness, that the Prosecution so far has not said that Dr. Hohberg was active in some connection with Staff W for the Legal Department.
A. Defense Counsel, I am of the opinion that I heard the name of Dr. Hohberg in connection with an active activity. You asked me, "Do you remember names from your time in the SS-WVHA?" and I thereupon answered, "I believe I heard the names of Dr. Hohberg and Dr. Volk," without saying exactly where I heard them.
Q. You just told me that you do not remember Dr. Hohberg's name from your activities here. How can you tell me now that you can remember that name so very well after three years?
A. Defense Counsel, once upon a time I had a good memory, and I still have it, and I believe I am in a position to say that certain names which are connected with my activity at the time are still in my memory, and for that reason, in order just to give you a small example, I could cite various other examples without giving you concrete evidence to that effect, but when you ask me about the actions so-and -so, or if you would ask me, then I would tell you all that I remember about those things, all I could remember.
Q. If I have understood your testimony so far correctly, then you wish to tell me that you do not know what functions Dr. Hohberg had while he was in the SS-WVHA?
A. Yes. I can answer your question in the affirmative, insofar as my testimony was based upon assumptions that he was Chief of the WVHA--and I stress the point, "on the assumption".
Q. On what do you wish to base all that -- on what facts?
A. while I was with Amt W III I also read letters in which the name Dr. Hohberg appeared. In Amt III there were also a collection of files. I mean that there were file holders, in which there was the whole business activity, even dating quite a while back, and as I told you before, in what concrete case the name Hohberg appeared I could not tell you now. I know, however, that I heard the name of Dr. Hohberg in connection with those yellow envelopes.
Q. Now, witness, can you tell me whether these letters which you just mentioned-- that is, the letters which you are supposed to have seen in Amt W III-- were signed by Dr. Hohberg or said Hohberg in the text?
A. I can not answer this question today. However, I believe I am able to tell you that I have seen both his signature and his name in the text, at least so far as this applies to the old documents.
Q. In what connection, what text these letters had, you can not remember?
A. No, I can not remember that, since my office activity in Amt W III had only something to do with letters and I worked there for only a short time. I know, however, that certain questions were dealt with there. For instance, in Neuengamme a branch of the German Food Factory was to be set up, and Untersturmfuehrer Meissner went to Hamburg several times. How these letters are to be Drought into connection with Dr. Hohberg's name I can not tell you today.
Q. Now, let's touch upon another field of tasks. If I understood you correctly, you were with the Revision Department for two and a half months?
A. I said yes.
Q. Who were the collaborators of the Revision Department?
A. The collaborators of the Revision Department were Untersturmfuehrer Boelter, Unterscharfuehrer Hensel, or Henseler, and then there were ladies by the names of Fraulein Bartsch, Frau Nitsche, and then SS Unterscharfuehrer Fischer, who called himself an economics expert.
Q. Were there any other gentlemen in there whom you can not recall at the moment?
A. As far as I know, I do not believe there were any others. I can not recall any other names.
Q. Do you know if Staff W H 5 gave orders or could give orders to the Revision Department of the DEST?
A. I believe I am able to remember now that the reports of the Revision Department went to Staff W, as far as certain things were concerned, I can not tell you single instances, and therefore I can not state exactly what it was all about. All I can tell you is that I have written to Staff W repeatedly.
Q. Did the examiners of Staff W have anything to do with the revisers of the DEST?
A. No, I can not tell you that because I was in the Revision Department for a very short time.
Q. During your short activity in the Revision Department, you know, perhaps, what the confirmations are for the examiners. Do you know that Dr. Hohberg in his capacity as Economic Examiner did not want to sign to the DEST?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. Do you know from what moment on Staff W of the WVHA or the DWB created a concern revision department for the first time?
A. I can now answer that question either, Defense Counsel.
Q. Do you know if at any time there was a change in that respect?
A. I do not know that either.
Q. Do you know who, at the time you were with Amt W I, was in charge of the economic examination of the DEST?
A. Well, as far as the Osti ring was concerned, I can not tell you anything about it. Before Untersturmfuehrer Boelter; in other words, as far as certain calculations were concerned.
Q. Do you know if employees of the German Osti company worked there?
Q. I do not know that, Defense Counsel.
Q. I have a last question to you. How can you tell us that there was a connection between the Osti and the Reinhardt Fund?
A. I did not say that there was any kind of connection. Two questions were asked me. The first question was, "Did you ever hear anything about the Reinhardt Fund?" The second question was, "Do you know the Osti?"
Q. I shall ask you another question now, witness. Was there any connection between the Osti and the Reinhardt Fund?
A. I could not possibly know that.
DR. HEIM: Thank you. No further questions to the witness.
BY DR. BELZER (for the defendant Sommer):
Q. Witness, this morning you made certain statements, remarking, however, that these observations were not based upon your own observations but only upon statements made by third persons. I am talking now of the conditions in the watch repair shop in Sachsenhausen. Do you think that on the basis of your information, it is possible that in this watch repair shop other inmates besides Jews were also used?
A. I think I am able to answer the question in the following manner, but on the basis of the information which I received at the time. It was said that this was going to be the Jewish barracks.
Q. I wanted to come to that question. Is it possible that your misinterpreted, or rather, received statements and misinterpreted them with reference to this watch repair shop and with reference to the Jews, and that you are referring to this watch repair shop by mistake?
A. I believe that the question can not be answered the way you ask it, because that Jewish barrack was the only barrack of its kind in the camp. As I said before, it was separated from the rest of the camp, and it was the only barrack in which the windows were closed.
As far the activity of the Jews who were locked up in there, I was only told-- I asked, for instance, "What are the Jews doing?" and I was told that they were working on watch works, etc.
Q. In other words, there is a possibility that you misunderstood that-- namely, the Jewish barracks with the watch repair shop barrack, which was somewhere else?
A. No, Defense Counsel, I believe I am able to answer that question in a positive manner. The man who told me that could have been misinformed about that.
THE PRESIDENT: We will tell you frankly, Counsel, that we are not very much interested in watch making.
DR. BELZER: May it please Your Honor, I will state on this that this watch repair shop was an installation for the evaluation of watches which were collected by the Reinhardy Action, and therefore I am sure that the Prosecution will then refer to the activity of the defendant Sommer. That is why.
BY DR. BELZER:
Q. In other words, you admit that your informant could have been wrong.
A Defense Counsel, today it is very difficult to say whatever was said by an innate at the time is still correct. However, on the other hand, the inmates of the camp were well informed on all the things in the camp so that the possibility of misinformation can be reduced down to a minimum.
Q If I tell you now, Witness, that the man in charge of that watch repair shop at Sachsenhausen was a watchman in profession, in other words, he was not a Jew, and that other inmates also were working in those barracks who were not Jews, would you think then that these persons worked in the barracks in which the windows were nailed too?
A The way I feel about it is, that apart from the barrack which you mentioned, in other words, where civilians and other inmates worked, that is another position to the question which I mentioned.
Q That was the idea of my whole question. Isn't it possible that there is some sort of misunderstanding here about it?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we have had enough of that. It is always possible for some person to be mistaken, so whatever this inmate or this witness says we will concede that people may be mistaken, and we are still not impressed by the watchmaking business. I suggest that there are more important inquiries to be made.
Q Witness, in the course of your examination this morning, in your direct examination and also during the cross-examination, you repeatedly mentioned the fact that the conditions in the concentration camps from 1942 on had changed in various things, particularly as far as the flogging and the capos, etc. were concerned.
A Defense Counsel, I believe that the way I put it was a little bit different. It must have been '43 and not '42.
Q I have notes here twice in which it says 1942.
A Yes. Well, I thought the whole thing over, and I reconstructed the events, and I arrived at Neuengamme in March, 1942, and I had a very hard time there, beatings every day, and only early in 1943 before I arrived at Oranienburg that is when the conditions changed, only so far that the capos were no longer allowed to distribute floggings.
Q You spoke of the prohibition to beat inmates. Do you know of any directive according to which these capos were explicitly told they were not allowed to beat the inmates?
AAt that time I had no knowledge neither of the files nor of the connection, the whole connection. I was just another inmate, No. 6978, who had no opinion of his own and who didn't even have the opportunity to discuss or no certain facts of himself.
Q In other words, you could not receive the real reason which was responsible for the change of those conditions in the concentration camp?
A I don't know if this is part of the whole affair, but at that time they were saying in the camp that an ultimatum had been given to Germany, that is, if the German concentration camp inmates were not treated better, namely that then the German prisoners of war would have been treated in the same way. I insist here this is just something that was a rumor that went around in the camp, and if this is true I could not tell at the time, and I still could not tell today.
Q Then I would like to know from you, witness, how many hours a day you worked both at Neuengamme and at Oranienburg?
A I take it that during the summer months, as I already mentioned this morning, we worked twelve hours, and during the winter we only worked during that time when the site was clear and until it was dark again.
Q How many shifts did you have in the bread factory in Sachsenhausen?
A Originally we worked in one shift in the bread factory in Oranienburg and later on in two shifts.
Q From what time on?
A I could not give you the exact date. I take it it was in July or August, but I couldn't give you an exact date.
Q '43?
A '43, that is correct. No, I have to correct myself, it wan't in '43. Yes, '43.
Q Not 1944?
A Yes. No, it wasn't, because in '44 I joined the Amt W-1.
Q Apart from the additional food which you received in the bread factory did you have any other additional rations?
A No, apart from bread we received nothing else.
Q Not even sausage?
A Yes, you are right, we received a small piece of sausage once a week.
Q Do you know anything about the fact that the working inmates, or a certain percentage of the inmates in the Neuengamme and Sachsenhausen camps received a special hard workers' allocation regardless of the fact if they worked or not?
A I can answer your question to the effect that the situation in Neuengamme was such that the capo was in charge of the distribution of food for the heavy workers. The capo was a man who could say, according to his own opinion, "You do not work hard enough today and you do not get your heavy worker allocation," and he acted as if he did not receive any more food allocation from the commando himself, and, of course, I could not actually tell you if he actually kept the broad back on his own responsibility or not.
Q Do you know of cases during which people were released from the camp? To help you now I am referring now to inmates who worked in the DEST and were then released, and only after their release in the DEST they were used there as workers?
A Yes, I know these cases from Oranienburg.
Q Do you know of any suck cases?
Q Yes, I know two or three cases. I couldn't tell you the name of the man. It was a man by the name of Dollfuss, I believe, and he was the secretary of the Chief of 0-2, and from 0-2 there were two more releases as far as I know at the time. However, we said at the plant that Herr Brauner, who was the Chief of the office of the Amt, or rather at the plant at the time, had been retransferred in connection with this. However, I shall make the restriction that this was nothing else but a rumor in that connection.
Q On whose orders would these releases occur? You did not know?
A No, I don't.
Q Did you ever hear of any case in which an inmate was released and then became worker for an ammunition factory and then became prokurist?
A No, I don't.
Q You furthermore stated that you received money every month from your father?
A Yes.
Q How much of the money could you draw?
A It was the following way at Neuengamme, I can only purchase up to ten marks worth of stuff, so that I wrote to my father one day he should not send any more money later on, because at the moment I could not use the money.
Q And how was it at Sachsenhausen?
A In Sachsenhausen it did not play a large part for me as I had more opportunities there to buy other things through a friend of mine.
Q With this premium that you used, was there a possibility that an inmate could possibly be in a better position through these premiums than if he would have taken money from his parents?
A I am of the opinion that they were not so interest ed in it. This was only interesting for those inmates who did not receive any money.
Q Don't you know of the fact that you were only allowed to draw up to a certain amount of money from your parents?
A No, because this limit was never reached because we had no power of buying anything there, and one could never spend 50 marks per month. I told you that exactly already that 10 marks was all you could spend.
Q Wasn't there the possibility, however, on the other hand, that an inmate while working hard, received more premiums through hard work?
A One can only say this because as, for instance, the greatest part of the inmates, that is all these inmates who were not foremen or were not capos, were not skilled workers, that they just received 50 pfennigs, and not every inmate received this 50 pfennigs. I, myself, I had the 2 marks and the 2 marks and a half premium, and all the camp elders received more than 2.50. However, I don't remember, I can't recall a case in which I was given the money.
Q Yesterday a witness declared that premiums could be received up to six or eight in the month, per month.
A Yes. Well, I told you that I received up to 10 marks myself. That was the highest premium I received.
Q You don't know of any case in which premiums were received up to fourteen marks?
A The cases of which you are speaking are special inmates. They were inmates who on the basis of their papers could not be released. However, due to the long time which they had spent in the camp and collaboration with the place they were working for, they finally got it through with the camp administration that these few inmates received special allocations with special privileges.
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
As far as I know there were three or four inmates in those in certain camps who as you just mentioned received an increased premium.
DR. BELZER: Thank you. No further questions.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Witness, I have a few questions with regard to Bohemia. You mentioned the name of Hechtfischer in connection with Bohemia.
A Yes.
Q Who is Hechtfischer?
AAs far as I know, he was a director of ALA, who as far as I know also received the order to make and carry out the discussions with Bohemia.
Q With reference to buying the shares of Bohemia, I wish to put the following thing before you: These shares belonged to the Bohemian Bank which was a subsidiary of the German Bank in Berlin. What do you have to say to that?
A I stated with reference to the Bohemian Bank, and I believe I said before, that the situation was in the following manner at the time-
Q If I put before you that these shares were not in London, but that the shares were with the Dresdner Bank, what would you say then?
A I don't know why the legal department was afraid of an English intervention in that connection.
Q You can tell me that with certainty?
A Yes, I can.
DR. GAWLIK: No further questions of the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there any further cross-examination?
(There was none.)
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, you are not Jewish.
A No, Your Honor, I am not.
THE PRESIDENT: Last chance. Is there any other cross-examination?
(None.)
Any redirect?
Court No. II, Case No. IV.
MR. McHANEY: No, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you about to call another witness, Mr. McHaney?
MR. McHANEY: No, Your Honor; we would like to submit some documents for a change.
THE PRESIDENT: Then we will take a recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: Tribunal Number II is again in session.
MR. McHANEY: May it please the Tribunal, I have been offering documents from Prosecution Document Book Number IX. We have completed the presentation of the documentary proof on the high-altitude and freezing experiments which were contained in Prosecution Document Book Number VII, and in Prosecution Document Book Number IX. We had completed the presentation of the typhus experiments at Buchenwald, and also the typhus experiments at the Natzweiler concentration camp carried out by Dr. Hirt.
I proceed now to the presentation of documents dealing with the gas experiments also conducted by Dr. Hirt at Natzweiler; and I would now like to offer Document NO-372, which is on page 38 of Document Book Number IX, and this will be Prosecution Exhibit 231. It is an affidavit by Rudolf Brandt concerning the Lost (Mustard) gas experiments. Just by way of introduction, I think it might be well to read paragraphs three and four of that affidavit. He states in paragraph three as follows:
"3. Late in 1939, experiments were performed on involuntary human subjects at the Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp to determine the effectiveness of various treatments upon wounds caused by Lost gas. Lost is a poison gas which has a deleterious effect on the skin. I think it is commonly known as mustard gas. Since the war had started it was considered desirable to ascertain the best treatment for wounds caused by Lost in the event that this gas was used against the Reich. Therefore, experimentation on concentration camp inmates was undertaken. As I understood it, the procedure followed was that wounds were created on various parts of the body of the experimental subject and then the wound was infected with Lost. Different types of treatment were used to determine the ones most effective."
"4. Prior to 1942, SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. August Hirt, professor at the University of Strasbourg and associate of the "Ahnenerbe," experimented with Lost wounds on orders of the armed forces.