Court No. II, Case No. IV.
A I don't quite get your question.
Q Where was your office in relation to Mummenthey's office?
A My office?
Q Yes?
A Well, I only worked with the legal reporter, Dr. Schneider. That is, my activities dealt especially with insurance questions.
Q Excuse me. What I am trying to get at is the physical setup of the concentration camp. Where was the legal division offices in relation to Mummenthey's office. Were your offices inside the concentration camp?
A My office was on the Stone Processing -- on the Stone Processing Works in the barracks, and the work manager, and the checking department were also there.
Q Was this inside of the camp?
A No, that was in the Stone Processing Works. That is not inside the Klinker Camp, but further into the work place, on the stone location.
Q From your office could you see the workers marching to and from their work in the Klinker Works?
A From my office I saw the inmates as they worked?
Q Was this work of the Dest Industry that they were doing in the quarry works, or the stone works?
A No, these were works which were done in the brick works and in the camp itself, where the stones were placed.
Q When Mummenthey went from his office to the offices of the legal division, was it necessary for him to pass the work details in the concentration camp?
A If the then Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey went from his office to the Stone Processing Works, that is, to the legal department of this works, then he had to cross the stone place where the stones were deposited.
Q Would he ordinarily have seen the workers at their work?
A Yes, he could see the workers.
Q In the spring of 1944 did you have occasion to write a memorandum concerning the working conditions in Sachsenhausen?
A Yes.
Q Will you describe the circumstances of that memorandum?
A In this memorandum, in this expert opinion, I made a comparison between the criminal inmates and inmates of the concentration camp, and I compared the working and living conditions of these two groups, and I described them.
Q Who asked you to make this study?
A Dr. Schneider, the legal reporter.
Q The legal reporter?
A Yes, the legal reporter of the Office W-1.
Q And do you know for what reasons the report was prepared?
AAccording to the testimony of the legal expert, Dr. Schneider the WVHA wanted to have greater indemnication for the work of the inmates, and the reason was that the Administration of Justice for their criminal inmates, that is from the employers who used criminal inmates of the Justice prison, was paid higher than the WVHA for their inmates.
Q And the WVHA wanted to know why their prisoners produced less than the Justice prisoners, is that it?
A Dr. Schneider told me that the Chief of the Amt, in that instance Mummenthey, wanted to know what the reasons are why the inmates furnish less work as compared with the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration.
Q And what did you say in your memorandum?
A I tried to describe the reasons, the main reasons for the decreased output of the inmates.
Q What were those reasons that you gave in the memorandum?
A I said that the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration were treated like human beings after they were sent to the prison and not as in the concentration camp treated as mere numbers.
Further, I described that the criminal convicts of one Justice Administration did not have to endure, or practically not, any mistreatment. If there might be instances of this character, the prison wardens would be fired immediately.
Then I said further that the clothing and the food and the accommodations of the criminal convicts of the Justice Administration, in the execution of sentences, were quite different from what they were in the concentration camps.
Furthermore, I pointed to the fact that because the inmates of the concentration camps did not know whether and when they could leave the camps and be released, they were depressed and that therefore they would not work in the same manner as the criminal convicts in the prisons, who knew exactly on what day and what day and at what hour they would be released from the prison.
Q Do you know whether Mummenthey received a copy of this expert opinion to the Chief of the Amt.
Q Dr. Engler, during your work in the legal department did you hear the term "Action Reinhardt"?
A I have heard this word only once during a conversation, without knowing the actual meaning of this "Action Reinhardt".
Q You heard that in a conversation in the legal department, did you?
A Well, today I cannot recall after such a long period of time in what connection and from whom I heard of the Action Reinhardt. This was a conversation which was of secondary importance, and I was not interested in that matter.
Q Do you remember when it was that you heard it?
A I did not quite understand you.
Q When.
A Well, today I could not tell you that exactly any longer.
Q Did you have occasion to learn about certain diamond cutters who were used in the DEST industry?
AAs I was in charge of the File administration, I saw a file once which was concerned with diamond cutter Hertogenbosch, and in this file I learned that there were Jews -- three brothers -- who had the secret of cutting diamonds and who were the most famous diamond cutters of the world. They did not want to give the secret away to the SS, and in this file it was mentioned that an attempt should be made to extort this secret of diamond cutting from these Jews in some manner, either by good persuasion or by other means.
Q What was the relation of the DEST industries to this activity?
A Well, this diamond cutting, if I remember well, was subordinate to the then SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Eggert.
Q And did the SS obtain the secret from the three brothers, as far as you know?
AAs far as I recall, these three brothers did not give away the secret.
Q Do you know what happened to the three brothers?
A I cannot give you any information as to what happened to them.
Q Did you hear about a watch repair shop in Sachsenhausen?
A Yes. Well, in the camp Sachsenhausen--I think in Block 60--there was a watch repair shop in which inmates were working and I remember well, most of them were Jews.
Q Do you know where the watches came from?
A They came from the occupied territories, if I remember well.
Q In the course of you work in the legal department, Dr. Engler, did you learn anything about the acquisition of the Bohemian Ceramics plant by the WVHA?
A Well, the Bohemian Porzellan factory, china factory was bought, as far as I remember.
Q Do you know from whom it was purchased?
A Well, if I remember well, it was purchased by the WVHA.
Q And from whom?
A Well, I worked on that matter at that time, it is true, but I can remember only that a certain Dr. Kobga (?) was there as a trustee. He refused to hand over this enterprise to the SS and sell it to them. At that time I reported to the Prosecutor of the District Court of Agar and requested the files on Dr. Kobga, and I also read them at that time.
There I found out that Dr. Kobga had been arrested on the basis of a denunciation which some party dignitary in Agar had made, and after an arrest of, if I remember well, he had been released from protective custody.
Q Dr. Kobga owned a part of the shares in the Bohemian Ceramics factory, did he?
A He did not own any shares. The shares belonged to, two Jews who had emigrated to England. I have to point out that for all my testimony I can only testify in accordance with what I recall, and therefore I cannot give any definite answer here concerning these matters.
Q You studied the files in this case, did you, on the arrest of Dr. Kobga and how it had come about, and then I looked at the result of the investigation.
Q Do you know when Dr. Kobga was arrested?
A I told you already that he was charged with having connections with Jews who lived abroad and having maintained these connections. The shares of the Bohemia were, if I remember well, deposited in a Bohemian Bank. I think it was in Prague.
Q And the Bohemian plants was finally acquired by the WVHA? Do you know whether or not that is true?
A Well, I could not tell you that definitely today, but I think that the Bohemia was purchased and the Director Hechtfischer was appointed manager.
Q Do you know what was paid for the plant?
A No, I could not tell you anything with regard to that, what was the sum for the purchase if a purchase was made at all.
Q In the course of your work in the legal department in the DEST did you hear the name of Volk?
A On the strength of my knowledge of the files, because I administered and I dealt with the files, I also heard the name Dr. Volk and saw his signature.
Q Do you know what position he held?
A If I remember well he was the personnel expert of the Hauptamtschef, Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl.
Q Did you hear the name of Hohberg?
A Yes, this name. I want to tell you all the names in order to shorten the matter. I remember the names Volk, Baier, Hohberg. Just a minute, I cannot tell you anything more for the time being, but that was only because I studied the files.
Q You saw those names in the files in the DEST?
A I saw the names in the files of the DEST.
Q Do you know what position Hohberg and Baier occupied?
AAs far as I recall, Dr. Hohberg, before the Oberfuehrer Baier became chief of Staff W, before that Dr. Hohberg held the same position.
Q Do you know what the extent of the control of Staff W was over the DEST industry and over the other industries in the WVHA?
A Well, the Staff W was the highest authority in the office, W-1.
Q Witness, do you think you could identify Pohl and Mummenthey today from having seen them during your work with the WVHA?
A Yes, I think I can.
Q Will you stand up and see if you can identify them in this room.
A The former Obergruppenfuehrer is in the first range near the door at the left.
Q Is that Pohl?
AAnd the former Oberstandartenfuehrer Mummenthey is the third defendant in the back range from the right.
Q Will you tell us again where Pohl is sitting?
A In the first range at the left near the door, the first of the defendants, the front row.
MR. ROBBINS: I ask that the record show that the witness identified Pohl and Mummenthey, that the witness properly identified the defendants, Pohl and Mummenthey.
THE PRESIDENT: The record will so indicate.
MR. ROBBINS: That is all the questions the Prosecution has.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense may cross-examine this witness.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. SEIDL: (For Defendant Oswald Pohl)
Q Witness, in the year 1940 there was a proceeding against you before the Special Court. What was the subject of the charges, what were you charged with in the indictment?
A I already mentioned that I was said to have influenced Gestapo officials to release inmates from the concentration camps by bribery, by money.
AAnd these charges nominally corresponded to the fact?
A I did not pay any money to the Gestapo officials. I must say here for the honor of these two Gestapo officials, that the latter part, they did it for ideal reasons, and this fact was decisive, for the fact that the kommissar was sentenced, but not in connection with my own trial, and he was acquitted also. That means that the Tribunal recognized the fact in its opinion that the charges which had been submitted were not corresponding to the fact.
Q You then described the conditions in the DEST industries, and you stated that the workers there had to work for twelve hours.
I now ask you, isn't it a fact that as from 1943 the German workers in the German armament factories had to work eleven and twelve hours daily also?
A May I point out to you Counsel, that during this time I was in the concentration camp and I didn't know anything with regard to the conditions outside, but it is true that later on I was told that.
Q You were then for a certain time legal adviser of the inmates?
A Yes.
Q You also described the activities already which you exercised within this function, but one may draw the conclusion from that the inmates were not completely secluded from the outer world.
A I told you already that the justice administration had complained about the fact that the deadlines were not met and the obligations were not met. You know, for instance, in the Staff W there were certain deadlines to meet, and these complaints were then passed on by the justice administration to the administration of the concentration camps and accumulated there, and then they created the position of legal adviser to the inmates.
Q You furthermore testified that as from 1943 the conditions improved in many instances, and you also stated there were reasons for these improvements. Wasn't the fact also a reason that as from 1942, and more from 1943, an attempt was made to increase the working output of the inmates, and that was perhaps a reason which would lead to improvements in the food and in the treatment of the inmates?
A What you say, Counsel, is correct. During the first period, let's say until 1942, as I said already, there were only political reasons decisive, and later on the inmates were considered working power and were to be maintained as working power.
Q Sachsenhausen was a large concentration camp and you yourself were a political prisoner in that connection?
A Yes.
Q But there were other prisoners in this camp. Would you explain to this Tribunal briefly what were the inmates of which this camp was composed?
A In the concentration camp of Sachsenhausen there were political criminals, anti-social elements, and Witnesses of Jehovah that composed the camp. During a certain period there were also the so-called custody prisoners, these people who were sent from prisons because of their charged criminal records and their danger, the danger they presented to society, and they were sent to the camps for an uncertain period of time. There were also habitual criminals in these camps, and violent criminals who had been sent to the camp in custody, and they were considered inmates in the camp, and they had the green insignia in the camp, the green insignia of the criminal inmates.
Q Who set up the so-called self-administration of the camp, the so-called irregular administration?
A It was exercised by the inmates.
Q I want to know what group of inmates.
A Well, one should say that, for instance, the elders of the camp that belonged to the political group and the criminal group, and their foremen, the so-called capos, to a large extent belonged to the criminal inmates. They were criminal inmates.
Q And that is probably also a reason for the fact that these capos were to a much larger extent as compared to the SS, that they mistreated the inmates more than the SS?
A Yes, according to their mentality as formerly pimps and criminals, they just let go to their lusts and their sadism, but that, of course, was only possible because the SS members themselves had preferred these people as capos.
Q Then for a certain period of time you belonged to the punitive company. If I understood you right I think this punitive company was not under the orders of the WVHA but under the order of the camp commander.
A Yes, under the orders of the camp commander.
Q You then described the conditions with regard to the food supplies. Witness, could you give us an approximate estimate, what was according to your opinion the calorie ration which was given to the inmate per day and what he actually received?
A The calories were of such a character that the inmates who were sent to the clinker punitive companies, namely during the winter, could not live longer than four weeks, that is as far as calories are concerned, the quantity of calories. I would make an estimate and say that there were about 800 calories, but as I said I cannot give you definite information with regard to this figure. But namely all the preferential treatment which the inmates had inside the camp, insofar as they didn't belong to the punitive company, these bonuses were excluded for the members of the punitive company, if I shall point it out with one word here, describe the conditions in reality, this punitive company was considered the so-called death company.
Q Witness, the first point I asked you for was not for the number of calories concerning this punitive company; but I, rather, wanted to know what was the general quantity of calories in the camp?
A Well, I could not indicate the quantity of calories given to the inmates of the camp. I can only tell you that what was the food we received in the camp. If you would like me to do that, then I am quite ready to do it.
Q But the number of calories in the camp was certainly higher than 800 which the punitive company received?
A The food outside of the punitive company was better, as in the SK the quantity of calories was higher.
Q But you can not give me an approximate figure?
A No, that is impossible for me. I can only give you the quantities which we received daily in the camp of Sachsenhausen, in the main camp.
Q Then, you have testified that the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl once visited the camp workshops, and you, yourself, explained the production to him?
A Yes.
Q Could Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl at that time make any observations of a factual character which would lead to the conclusion of bad treatment or mistreatment of inmates?
A No; during this visit in the ceramic workshops, he couldn't.
DR. SEIDL: May it please the Tribunal, I have no further questions.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. FROESCHMANN: (Counsel for the Defendant Mummenthey)
Q Witness, you worked at Oranienburg; could you tell the Tribunal first of all whether this work was established in a modern fashion, or whether it complied with the usual style of such work?
A The brick work Oranienburg, I think, was the most modern, belonged to the most modern of this kind of work, and had the most modern equipment.
Q In the brick work Oranienburg, were there big machines and electrical equipment which improved and facilitated the work of the individual workers considerably?
A The processing of the stones was done first of all by machines; that is, in the brick works, if I remember well, there were twenty-four tunnel furnaces and three so-called water gates. The heavy work was the transporting of the stones from the tunnel furnaces, and it was very hot there, and the transport of the stones, which had to be done again during this work, and which was felt as especially heavy work; this was considered punitive work.
Q Witness, you mentioned the name Kopke. Do you know that the defendant Mummenthey had requested the file Kopke because he, Mummenthey, knew Kopke, and he wanted to rehabilitate him?
A Today I can not recall that. It is true that I requested the files myself from the Prosecution at Eger, but today I don't know why I requested them. I think that I can remember that Dr. Kopke, after he was released from his arrest, get some job with the SS, he got some job with DEST -- but I could not tell you that with certitude today.
Q Can you remember whether Kopke was arrested upon the denunciation by a certain Koetter, who was the administrator of the Victoria; that he was arrested in 1938?
A That is correct. I think that the question of the then Obersturmbannfuehrer, I think -- yes, there was a big dispute at that time on account of this Koetter, what his name was.
Q And is it correct that Kopke was not director of the Bohemia but, rather, of the Victoria?
A That is possible too.
Q And finally, is it correct that Koetter was appointed by Case No. 4, Court No. 2 the Reichkommisar for the treatment of foreign property?
A I think I can remember that this is correct.
Q Do you know when the Bohemia was transferred to the Office W-1?
A I could not give you the time.
Q You described to this Tribunal that during a considerable period of time you worked in the legal department of the Office W-1, the DEST. How long have you worked in this legal department?
A I worked in the legal department of DEST from November 1943 until the 10th of April 1945.
Q That is, during the two years you had considerable opportunity to see the correspondence which went through your hands, and look at them in your capacity as a lawyer?
A Yes.
Q When you went through these files, did you see monthly reports of the working management of the DEST?
A I saw monthly reports of the working management; yes.
Q What did these work-management reports deal with?
AAs far as I remember, they dealt merely with the administration of the workshop.
Q These reports did not contain any information on the condition of inmates in the concentration camps?
AAs far as I can remember, no.
Q You already confirmed the fact that, as far as the food was concerned, and the clothing of the inmates, the local camp command was responsible; is that correct?
A Well, later on I read at a certain time -- and I think that was in 1933 -- that from that moment on, the working and living conditions of the concentration camp inmates were to be worked out by the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl. At that time I saw some sort of an order of that kind, and, as far as I remember, the Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl also summoned all the camp commanders at one time, and he informed them that the inmates, from that time on, were to be considered working power -- labor, and that, therefore, that their treatment had to be changed accordingly.
Q Did you have the opportunity to discuss with Dr. Schneider, the chief of the legal department, the conditions of the inmates inside the camps and inside the workshops of DEST, and to have a personal conversation with him?
AAs to Dr. Schneider, I had quite a long discussion concerning the conditions in the concentration camps.
Q What was the viewpoint of Dr. Schneider?
A Well, it would be necessary to describe the character and the mentality of the then legal expert, Dr. Schneider. Dr. Schneider, it is true, was a very intelligent man, but he was a man without a will of his own, and, unconditionally he executed the orders which he received from superiors; and he, as a member of the SS, of course, did not admit to me that the conditions in the concentration camps were as bad as I described them to him. But I discussed with him several times, and I must say almost every week, and I told him that, as far as the concentration camps were concerned, only extermination camps could be talked about.
Q But the defendant Mummenthey seems, after all, to have had certain hesitations concerning the work of the inmates, and he seems to have felt that it would be more correct to give the order to the legal department to check on this matter...
A I assumed that the assignment of Dr. Schneider, which I received in this connection, was done for this reason.
Q Did you only submit the factual evidence to Dr. Schneider, or did you also submit legal viewpoints and check them?
A I gave a report of ten typewritten pages to Dr. Schneider, and I described to him what I have already explained to this Tribunal.
Q Do you know from the correspondence which went through your hands or by the utterances of Dr. Schneider, by remarks made by Dr. Schneider, that the defendant Mummenthey, on the strength of your expert opinion, now sent a report to Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, an exhaustive report?
AAccording to what Dr. Schneider said -- which, of course, I couldn't check -- this report was said to have been sent via Obersturmbannfuehrer Mummenthey to Maurer.
Q Who was Maurer?
A Maurer was the man, if I remember well, who was in charge of the labor assignment in the concentration camps and seemed to decide upon it.
DR. FROESCHMANN: Do you want to make a recess now, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May I proceed with the cross examination.
BY DR. FROESCHMANN:
Q. Witness, from your last statement again I deduce from it that food, and clothing of the inmates in the concentration camp were based on orders which passed between the inspector of the concentration camp and the camp commandant?
A. I am of that opinion, yes.
Q. Did the farm have any influence on the food of the inmates?
A. I don't think so.
Q. But do you know that the Dest in particular looked after the improvement of the food of inmates? Perhaps I can supply you with a few details in my question. Of course, I don't know whether you are informed on this point. Were the inmates of the concentration camp Sachsenhausen who were worked in and around Oranienburg given special rations of bread by the Dest?
A. I don't know who supplied these special rations which reached in the shape of so-called portions, that is to say, first of all in the armament works which were established by the Dest.
Q. Did the special rations include tobacco?
A. Yes, tobacco was also supplied to us.
Q. Were there any special rations for many of the heavy workers?
A. Once the inmates were working in the so- called armament factories, that is, in the so-called shell factories, which were also located in and around Oranienburg, and once they were no longer able, for instance, to work on the furnaces, and they wanted work on the furnaces, they were given special rations.
Q. Do you know, witness, in the Oranienburg works, there were particularly well equipped billets which had been established by the management for the inmates?
A. I don't know. If you are now talking about the so-called Klinker Camp, why, the Klinker Camp was in no way different so far as the billeting was concerned from the big camp in Sachsenhausen. It is true, however, that in the so-called Klinker Camp, it consisted of ton huts, and there was a large one --- or two story stone building. In that building there were first of all the workers who worked in what I mentioned before, the shell factory, and the inmates who worked there were billeted in that building.
Q. Did the inmates eat there?
A. Yes, the inmates took their meals in that stone building, which also had served as their eating house, that is, they could take their meals there.
Q. Do you know, witness, that in the Dest in and around Oranienburg large quantities of vegetables were brought in from the gardens as additional food for them?
A. In the area of the big brick works in Oranienburg there was a very large garden, and from that garden additional food was supplied in the shape of vegetables to the camp.
Q. Now, Witness, do you know that of all these things which you admitted, that they were done only on the solicitation of the defendant Mummenthey?
A. I am unable to make any statement on that. At least, I can assume that in order to preserve the working capability of the workers, he was interested in feeding the inmates as much as possible.
Q. This attitude which you just expressed we can understand quite well from the basis of your experience. But would it not be possible to assume that Mummenthey for reasons of pure humanitarian motives created these improvements in lieu of the fact that the food was insufficient for the inmates?
MR. ROBBINS: Now I shall have to object to that question. The witness already answered, first, he does not know, and in the second place, it calls for an admission on the part of the witness when he said he had no knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: I think that the defendant Mumenthey is the only one who can answer that question with any degree of certainty. You are asking the witness to guess of what might have been in Mumenthey's mind. Well, the defendant Mumenthey can tell us what was such in his own mind when the time comes.
DR. FROESCHMANN: May it please the Court, the purpose of my question was to create the possibility of obtaining a confirmation of what Mumenthey told me. The defendant Mumenthey, if anything, is in a particularly difficult position, because all the people who were working under him as foremen can not be traced at this point, and now that the Prosecution has supplied this witness, who actually worked in Mumenthey's works, I, of course, should be allowed to put that question to the witness as I have just put it to him.