The best thing for you to do is to write nothing at all and then people would remind us afterward why nothing had been done about 14F13 and we said we have nobody. I was tempted to say that the only insane people who are in our camp are the SS men, but I did not want to rask anything because once I got into trouble because I wired to Lolling one of the female prisoners had a baby and I sent a telegram to Lolling as it was information in connection with the camp and I did wire to Lolling that the woman had a baby and that mother and child were doing well, and Lolling tipped me off, but we inmates celebrated this thing, although Kammler took a very poor view.
Q. Do you know if this order, 14F13 came from Lolling?
A. 14F13 was signed by Lolling, yes, and the report was also sent to Lolling.
Q. You saw this order? Did you see this order?
A. I saw the order and I filed it among my files, filed it like everything else.
Q. Was this signed by Lolling?
A. That again was signed by Lolling, and we wrote to Lolling after the transport left. We sent a teletype letter actually.
Q. Did you see an order in the correspondence in your office concerning castration of homo-sexuals?
A. Yes. Repeated orders of that type would arrive. The names of the inmates concerned were given. This action was concerned with inmates who had come from other camps to our camp and sometimes the doctor in charge would work very slowly and the castration which had been ordered had not been accomplished at the previous camp so, therefore, we had to carry it out in our camps, but we used sterilization instead of castration.
Dr. Kahr always opposed this measure because we both were of the opinion that the Krieg would not last much longer and therefore we hald off and explained that we had inadequate operation measures in our camp and not sufficient medical supplies there. We were again reminded to do it, again, but we deferred. At Dora in any case no castration was carried out nor any sterilization, whereas in Buchenwald, it happened all the time.
Q. Did this order come from Lolling?
A. That order again was signed by Lolling and reports were sent back to Lolling.
Q. Herr Ackermann, what is your present position?
A. For one year and a half I an the Director of the Municipal Information Offices of the town of Munich. I am also a correspondent in the newspaper, "Die Walt" of Hamburg, and I am a journalistic collaborator with a number of newspapers.
MR. ROBINS: That is all.
CROSS*EXAMINATION BY DR. SIEDL (Attorney for the Defendant Oswald Pohl):
Q. Witness, before you answer my question, would you please make a short pause in order to enable the translator to finish translating my question?
A. Yes, indeed.
Q. Among other things you stated that the Buchenwald Camp frequently visited by people and three installations would be shown to them; one was the canteen of the camp. Apart from the fact that very few things could be bought there, what impression would visitors gain from that canteen?
A. Well, a naive visitor would feel it very nice, but he saw inmates near the canteen in their rags and in the immediate neighborhood of the canteen he would see inmates who had bleeding wounds.
The purpose of the inspection was essentially to give the visitor completely false impressions, but who had eyes to see had to see that this beautiful canteen was purely for purposes of demonstrations. Once he reported to the Pathological Department and saw these skeletons and saw the collections of tattoes which was inspected by all visitors with a certain amount of curiosity and when he looked at the shrunken skulls and when, in particular, he listened to my lecture, even the most stupid visitor must get the real impression. I, myself, on purpose, would tell people "what you see here are a hundred different drugs, and the different parts of the human heart. One looks like the other and still there are 100 different diseases of the heart to be seen here. Workers who work heavily here suffer from heart diseases very soon. The aorta extends, the tissue would extend. If we had 50 deaths a day, at least 30 of them died of heart failure." I said that to open people's eyes, and once I listened through the key hole and heard how the camp commander told the visitors. He said, "We will visit the Pathological Department and Scientific Research," and we will see all the corpses." One man asked, "How many people died?" He said, "8 to 10 a day." "8 to 10 a day?" said the visitor. "0, Good Lord, no" the camp commander said. "8 to 10 a month." And then he come in the room with his visitors. I showed them the TB. I said, "Gentlemen, here you see all types of TB. You shall see these have been locked up, have been closed. Unfortunately, we have people who suffer from bad lungs and if we had them unlocked---"
And I took my book, and it was a large book and it had big letters and it had numbers, and you could see at once, you could see at one glance how many people had died and I told them to tell the people what you must have seen, what the living conditions here are and in some cases the people really would see what it was. In one case, the commandant went out first and the visitor crept up to me and asked me how many people are dead here and are they being, killed and what was taking place and I said tell the people outside that there are many dead, but don't quote me. They were interested in these tattoos and they wanted the tattoos, just the small tattoos and I was delighted to give it to them. We put it in their pockets, because we thought outside in their small circles people will tell their friends in the form of boasting or perhaps they will talk about it any way that people in concentration camps are being killed in that manner. In one case even, I told the member of the party and I told them the really interesting things are not here. We have a really interesting room which you must see, because at that time many inmates, had been hung in this cinema hall and in the evening cinemas would be shown for inmates which was quite good business for the SS. It was not only humane reasons for it. They were charged 20 Pfennigs for the cinemas and they made good business through these cinema shows. And I told them to go to the canteen, or, rather, to go to the cinema, and you can see something there, and when they were to be lead into the hospital one of the visitors said rather suddenly to the camp leader, "Let's see a cinema hall," and the commandant said, "It is nothing. We only show films there," and the visitor said, "I would like to see the cinama hall."
The camp commandant did not even know that people did hang there because Buchenwald was so large and he had not heard. There was something like 20 to 25 people would hang from there. They were particular that they would create a good impression. I believe the commandant never found out why the man insisted on seeing the cinema hall, that morning. People saw quite a lot. They did not see everything, but they must have seen that a concentration camp was not a recreation camp and they had to see what that meant to the public outside, what it meant with people who inspected a concentration camp because if had purely been a penal penitentiary, people would have been so frightened--
Q. So when visitors came to the camp the camp commandant would tend to show the better side of the camp to his visitors. They showed the operating theaters, for instance, which was very well equipped or other installations which you mentioned.
A. It was avoided to show the people the worst, but it was also intended at the same time to show the people that a concentration camp, as they put it, is a harsh school for those who are not sufficiently national. It was intended to impress the people. It was not intended overestimate the conditions where people worked, because all those people would try to get in the concentration camp, because it was not nice in war-time Germany. They wanted to show that everything was well organized, but they did not wish to give the impression that we lived in comfort, otherwise nobody would have been allowed to visit the camp. I think they approached the hospital at the end of the camp and the visitors would see the columns of inmates and they saw how jews were treated like horses.
They had to drag these heavy carts along. Nobody could avoid seeing these things, but, of course, they were not taken to places where they were being shot or were hanging down from trees, but they saw sufficiently and I think it was part of the purpose of these inspections to show people, how "we look after these people who aren't our friends." We don't treat them well," but of course, one did not want to speak of the fact that they were being murdered.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
DR. HOFFMAN: Hoffman for the defendant Scheide.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. HOFFMANN:
Q. Witness, you mentioned the name of Sanders at Ohrdruf or Dora.
A. His name is Sanders.
Q. What sort of a man was Sanders?
A. He was not a human being, he was an animal, a beast.
Q. Did Sanders act on orders or as he saw fit?
A. The orders were so elastic that Sanders could commit murders and the murders were still in accord with the orders given, because Himmler and his subordinates were very generous in these things.
Q. Witness, you mentioned Kahr, the SS doctor. When Kahr came to the camp, was he a humane man from the beginning although he was a member of the SS?
A. Kahr was a humane man from the beginning. He offered to see me on the very first day. There was another SS Hauptscharfuehrer present in the room and he stood about in the room and Kahr told him, "Now, if I want to talk to somebody, please leave the room. Get out." Then Kahr turned the key in the lock, and I was a little skeptical. It looked to me as though he wanted to finish me off then and there, but he fetched a bottle and two glasses and poured out the stuff, and then he told me, "Dear Ackermann, I have every confidence in you. You are a reasonable and sensible man and a decent man. I heard about you. I want you to give me your confidence. I came into the SS by the merest accident. I am a Catholic. I am very national minded and I believed that all was well. I was even a National Socialist. At least I believe I was a National Socialist, but you know these murderers. I have nothing in common with these murderers here. These murderers, they are something completely different and I despise them. I am ashamed to wear this uniform, and I tell you, I want to help the inmates wherever I can. And let us drink to that." And he took that view wherever he could. There were more conferences among the leaders after which he would then come to me and he told me what the camp leaders intended.
"There is going to be a house search and please get rid of everything which the camp leader could use against you." Whenever the labor assignment leader, Simon, decided punishment, for instance, when Simon saw an inmate doing the work making reports, he described him as an idler, and he put him on a heap of stones day and night until the inmate crawls up on top of that pile and was usually sent to the hospital with inflamation of the lungs and died.
Kahr got rid of all that despite the protests of the labor assignment leader. The labor assignment leader appealed to Berlin, Kammler, and protested about Kahr, but Kahr stuck to his guns. Despite all resistance he made improvements step by step. He never gave in although he became an object of hatred on the part of all of the camp leaders.
Q. Witness, now if you compare those two very different types wearing the same uniform, what is your explanation of that difference which you observed in the camp?
A. I would like to tell you here the two types were not equally represented in the SS. The type Sanders represented the overwhelming majority, and the type Dr. Kahr was so negligible in number that in many experiences in the camps of Dachau, Buchenwald, and Dora I remember only three SS leaders, in Buchenwald SS Dr. Lewe who is now interned at Garnisch, and in Dora Dr. Kahr and Dr. Kurzke. Dr. Kurzke is my guest at home and I am sharing my meager rations with him. Such a man is my friend and he is a man who was so decent that, when in November 1944 he joined us, he cried and told me he is leaving this camp; he is going to desert. He cannot stand it. That man took the simplest Russian by the hand. "Forgive me. I am a member of the SS but don't hold it against me. I don't belong to those. What can I do for you?"
This happened also, but these were exceptional cases, but these exceptional cases must be mentioned also.
Q. Witness, then you described the death of Dr. Steidle to us today. I would like to ask one question here. You told us that Dr. Steidle was told that he was going to be shot while trying to escape tomorrow.
A. Yes.
Q. Now was that an arbitrary measure on the part of the Scharfuehrer, or was there an order from the RSHA?
A. That was not an arbitrary act on the part of the Scharfuehrer. The man was Haupt or Oberscharfuehrer Blank who was formerly in Dachau. When I was in the bunker of Dachau like a dog, in an underground bunker, Blank killed thousands of people there. Blank was always used when there was a murder going on. He was a specialist. He was a poacher with many convictions who was a sportsman skilled as far as the killing of men and beasts were concerned. Blank's orders were to carry out all the executions which had been ordered from above. When the former deputy of the Reichstag, Kraemer, and the former deputy, Wichs, when those two were liquidated together, they were liquidated by Blank; that is to say, the commandant would have them arrested, throw them into the bunker, and two days later they went on a transport with Blank but would not come back or came back as corpses. Dr. Hoven took them to the crematorium at midnight under very secret conditions. Nobody must be seen or found. Blank, therefore, was a man who liked pulling the trigger, but in these cases he did not act on his own initiative but he acted on orders.
Q. Where would they come from?
A. Well, the SS system was not careless enough to give a written order to an inmate here, but if you talk to people, to SS people who were in the department at Buchenwald, you might find out perhaps who gave the order. Single cases which happened could be proved, such as cases in Dora; for instance, Dr. Kurzke, who is my guest at this point, who, incidentally, half an hour after the British - after the British occupied Bergen-Belsen he was released and is still free. He told me just before I left recently that Hauptsturmfuehrer B. Ischoff, who was the highest Gestapo chief of the Nordhausen area, when drunk signed about ninety death sentences but inmates did not get these orders into their hands, but still they were orders.
But if you could find a decent SS man from Buchenwald who worked in the political department and has information, you will certainly find that order. They were certainly given.
DR. HOFFMANN: No further questions.
DR. FRITSCH: Dr. Fritsch for defendant Baier.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. FRITSCH:
Q. Witness, in your direct examination or your cross-examination you talked about the fact that you had a lot of correspondence with the WVHA. Would you please be kind enough to tell me again with what departments you had this correspondence?
A. I said before that I can no longer remember what sub-departments were concerned there. All I knew at the time it does not go to Lolling, but it goes to the WVHA and some sub-department would be mentioned on the envelope which accompanied some letter which had reached us, so it did not stick to my memory and I cannot say this today any longer.
Q. To what locality were these letters addressed?
A. They were all sent to Oranienburg.
Q. And in Oranienburg was the department of Dr. Lolling, was it not?
A. Yes, it was, and I assume they went via Lolling to the WVHA.
Q. Do you know that the WVHA consisted of several office groups (Amtsgruppen)?
A. Yes, indeed, I know that.
Q. Do you know what rank the department or group or the office of Dr. Lolling - what rank did that office hold?
A. Dr. Lolling was Office Group D-III.
A. That is to say, an independent office?
A. An independent office? I cannot judge that. Independent? Nobody was independent. We were not independent. Lolling was not indepen dent.
There was always somebody above you.
Q. Did you ever have any correspondence with an office in Berlin?
A. At this point I can no longer say this that I ever wrote to Berlin. We wrote to the RSHA which originally was in Berlin, later on in Prague. We wrote direct letters to them. It is equally proper that we wrote letters to some office in Berlin but I don't recall it.
Q. Excuse me. What I am interested in only is an office of the WVHA. Did you have any correspondence with an office of the WVHA in Berlin?
A. I am unable to say that today.
Q. Then there is another question, Herr Ackermann. You said before in your cross-examination by Dr. Seidl roughly this - it is almost verbatim: The WVHA should know what money was made through the cinema in Buchenwald.
A. That is correct, yes.
Q Now my question is, do you know where these takings from the cinema were directed to?
A. I know that the takings went to Hauptsturmfuehrer Barnewald who was in charge of economic matters and was under the WVHA, and I assume handed the money over to it, and we discussed that quite often with the doctor that it was sent to the WVHA in Berlin. I assure - I cannot say so definitely - but I assume that the takings of the cinema performances were sent to Berlin.
It was once pointed out to me that a brisk money business was being done here for the SS. The film came from somewhere, and when thousands of inmates paid twenty pfennige a performance quite a sum would result. If I am not very much mistaken, the question of the brothel we also discussed by correspondence with an office of the WVHA but I cannot again state it definitely.
Here again the people there were giving fifty pfennige and, since the WVHA was responsible for all economic matters in the camp, we would assume that that money would go there, too. I am not quite certain on that point, though.
Q May I ask you this now: Before we were speaking of various groups and if I understood you correctly, about some of which you are not practically well informed.
A No, I am not informed about details here. I couldn't have been interested in it either.
Q Do you know who Barnewald was subordinated to, by any chance?
A We in the camp thought that Barnewald was not under the commandant as were the other SS officers, but that he was under the WVHA directly. That became clear to us, because Barnewald, the economic leader had a position apart from the commandant, and in economic matters the commandant had nothing to say or rather that Barnewald also spoke the decisive word there.
Q Now, my precise question is, whether you know what department or group within the WVHA Barnewald was under?
A No, I do not know. No, I cannot say that.
DR. FRITSCH: Thank you very much.
BY DR. GAWLIK (for Defendants Volk and Bobermin):
Q Witness, you spoke of the fire which burned in Dora. From what time was the fire burning?
A The fire was established, roughly, in the autumn of 1944, when the corpses piled up from the many camps and the evens of the crematorium were not big enough to cope with all the corpses which had been gathered in the camp.
Q But you agree with me, Witness, that surely the population who saw the fire could not know what the fire was all about.
A The population of the villages around us knew very quickly and very precisely what was going on. Can you imagine the SS men? They would see their girl friends in the evening and give them all the latest news from the camp, and these people did not bother about the secrecy orders. Anything that went on in the camp become public outside, and people very soon heard what the fire was about, because they would ask questions.
The fire was half-way up the mountain and they saw it over a great distance, and people would let their imagination play and they would smell this particular stench, and I myself, for instance --- many concerned -- I smelled corpses for about six years.
Q Did you yourself talk with a large number of people about the fire?
A Yes, I talked to people about the fire.
Q I mean, with a large part of the population.
A Well, I was not in a position to hold mass meetings in Nordhausen, but I had a certain amount of contact with people. I went to Nordhausen and talked to all sorts of people there.
Q And you told the population what the fire was about. I ask you, did you discuss the fire with the population?
A I talked to the population about it. The population asked me questions -- people would ask me, "Do you still have so many corpses that the fire has to go on?" and I answered, "We receive more and more corpses every day."
Q And it never happened that because of that you got into trouble with the Gestapo on account of these expressions?
A No, that did not happen.
Q Now, another point: You told the Court that the camp doctor, Dr. Hoven, had stated, "That skull I would like to have on my desk." When did that happen?
A That happened in about 1943.
Q The beginning of 1943 or the end of 1943?
A I am unable to give you the date.
Q Where?
A In the pathological department.
Q You heard that expression, did you?
A Yes, he told me.
Q To you personally?
A Yes.
Q And the next day, you said, the man was dead?
A Yes.
Q What did you do after that one time that he told you this thing?
A I did nothing, because corpses were not my task. I was only the clerk.
Q But why did he tell you this?
A Only because quite often he talked to me.
Q But it was a desire which he expressed?
A Yes, a wish.
Q Why did he express this wish to you?
A So that I would make a note of it. I was a clerk, and as a clerk I had connections with the people in the autopsy room.
Q But they knew already that Dr. Hoven wished to have a skull.
A When I went in the autopsy room the next day the clerk, Roeder, knew that was the same man who gave Hoven the skull.
Q So it is correct, is it, witness, that Dr. Hoven expressed this wish to you so that you would pass on that wish. Can you answer that question yes or no?
A I can answer it neither with yes or no.
Q How would you answer it?
A I would answer it to the effect that either in his enthusiasm he just expressed his feelings, as a private communication, as it were; but I can also imagine that he wished to draw my attention to the fact that when this man comes along he wished to have the skull, and as a clerk I should give orders to the assistant, and therefore I went there next day and I said, "This is the inmate whose skull Hoven said he wanted." So probably he also expressed the wish to the assistant.
Q Now, how can you as a clerk give an order? What sort of an order should you give as a clerk to an assistant?
A I should draw his attention to the fact that Dr. Hoven had given orders that that skull must be set aside next day and handed over to him.
Q Before that happened, surely other orders had to be given?
A How do you mean that?
Q If Hoven expressed that wish, the man was still alive when the wish was expressed.
A Dr. Hoven, of course, was of the opinion that when the corpse comes along, "I wish to have the skull." I could hardly give him the skull before the man is dead. The killing was the task of the doctors.
Q Then you said, witness, that the illegal camp leadership has its hand in it.
A What I said was, "It might have been done." I am not sure of this. The illegal camp leadership might have told somebody that the liquidation of that man might be desirable.
Q Perhaps you could describe to us who was the illegal camp leadership.
A I must tell you here in Buchenwald I had nothing to do with the illegal camp leadership. I knew the illegal camp leadership in Dora; but in Buchenwald I remained very passive; I did my work as a clerk, and today I am not a member of a political party. I did not have the reputation of -- let's say -- toeing the line, which was demanded by the illegal camp leaders, and for that reason I was not taken into their confidence. I did not take part in their decisions or consultations, nor in their recommendations to the camp doctor.
Q But perhaps you can tell us very briefly who was the illegal camp leaders, what were their tasks, and if you don't know, tell us, "I don't know."
A I have not sufficient concrete information for me to make statements here. The camp leaders were surrounded by various figures. You can imagine this person might or might have been an illegal camp leader; otherwise he would not have been a kapp.
It was conceivable that several functions would be distributed, for instance, by the illegal camp leadership, but I wasn't informed on that. I was never invited by them.
Q Perhaps you can answer this question: There was a commission of inmates which opposed the SS leaders.
A It was a committee of inmates who not only opposed the SS leaders. We all opposed the SS leadership. They had put themselves a definite political aim and in particular that once the camp would be dissolved none of us thought that the camp would continue to exist, we believed that the war was lost and then the most critical moments of their lives would come. For that reason the illegal camp commission was meant as a preparatory commission so to speak. Their tasks was to prevent anything which might be disadvantageous to the inmates. And in the end they really saw to it that the committee of inmates could not by some trick or other of the SS be smashed to pieces, that on the contrary in that moment the illegal camp management should take over the management themselves.
Q Then you said the possibility existed that that inmate was killed through the illegal camp leadership.
A I can imagine that Dr. Hoven had received information on this particular innate and that the wish had been expressed to Dr. Hoven that this inmate, perhaps because he had relations with the SS or perhaps because there is some suspicion that he spied on the inmates, should be eliminated.
Q With this particular killing, therefore, the SS leadership had nothing to do.
A Well, the SS leadership had certainly nothing to do with it but the SS doctor did.
Q Then you said, Witness, regarding visits, when he gave lectures in the pathological department, then the camp commandant stayed outside the door -
THE PRESIDENT: Will there be other cross-examination?
(Response in the affirmative)
Then we will recess until one-thirty.
(A recess was taken to 1330 hours.)
AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1340 hours, 24 April 1947.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
CROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued JOSEF ACKERMANN -- Resumed BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Witness, is it then correct to say that the illegal camp administration was a secret organization of the prisoners?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Did trustees of non-German nationalities also belong to this illegal administration?
A. Yes, non-German prisoners belonged to it.
Q. I now come to another point. In the course of the lectures which you gave in the pathological section, what SS leaders were present when you gave those lectures?
A. Usually either the first camp leader or the second camp leader was present.
Q. And did not these SS leaders have objections to the contents of your lectures?
A. They probably had certain misgivings. However, they never expressed these misgivings. Sometimes the camp leader seemed to be rather annoyed, but I always kept on, and he never took me to account for it.
Court No. 11 - Case No. 4
Q. Not even when you actually made a liar out of him?
A. Not even then, because he could not know that I had listened at the door, and when I showed that previously he had told the people the camp had a mortality rate of eight or ten people a month, he could not accuse me of having made a liar out of him because he had not lied in my presence.
Q. Yes, but the listeners must have had the impression. Can you answer this question yes or no?
A. Yes.
Q. Therefore, it would have been easy to state that the number was not known to him.
Q. Therefore, it would have been easy to state that the number was not known him.
A. Yes, he had reason to say that. Yes, there would have been a reason for him to say that. He could have said that, but he didn't. He failed to do so. Apparently he did not want to make his lie any more public.
Q. Yes, but would it not have been easiest for him that he would have issued such instructions to you for the future? Can you answer me this question with yes or no?
A. If he had been an intelligent camp leader then he would have taken me aside and he probably would have said, "Well, this is none of the peoples' business so many people are dying here." But this camp leader was constantly drunk. He furthermore was extremely stupid. He was a former locksmith from Munich, and he did not get very excited about the whole matter. It was very embarrassing to him, but he did not refer to the matter any more afterwards.
Q. Was not the camp administration trying to keep Court No. 11 - Case No. 4 conditions in the camp secret?
Can you answer me this question with yes or no?
A. That cannot be answered with yes or no. They wanted it to be known on the outside that things in the camp were handled very strictly, and it would be a punishment to be sent to the camp, because they wanted people outside to feel being sent to the camp was a punishment.
Q. Is it not correct that every prisoner upon his release had to sign a form where, under a threat of the most severe penalties, he was prohibited from saying anything about the conditions in the camp? Can you answer me this question with yes or no?
A. This also varied. I was released from Dachau, and I did not have to sign anything there whatsoever, but I was brought to the Gestapo in Munich. There I had to sign a certain form according to which I was not even to say I had been in protective custody, and less that I had been in a camp. I had to sign that I was obligating myself to state towards everybody that I had been sick throughout the period of time, and I pointed out to the Commissioner there that this excuse would be ridiculous in my case because my arrest had taken place in 1933, and when the German newspapers had brought an article about my arrest and it was a great success of the Gestapo that I had been arrested, together with an English journalist. In spite of this the commissioner told me that I was obligated to tell everybody that I had been sick, and he told me "If they find out you were in protective custody or were at Dachau you will immediately be brought back into the camp."