These people were in contact with this department and it was immediately ordered to pick these people out. The cause for this special operation by the Higher SS and police leader was the blowing up of the water tower and the railroad facilities in Korosten itself.
Q Will you further comment on your own connection with this, witness? fuehrer Mueller who was the Ukrainian interpreter in order to seek out 10 - 12 members of the Ukrainian bandera and to carry on long interrogations of these prisoners. These men were members of the bandera group who were active only in making propaganda for their own Ukrainian Nationalist idea. I picked out these people and took then with me to Shitomir and they were taken to Lemberg the next day. out in your own presence in Korosten?
A No, during my own presence no execution was carried out. When I had these people picked out in Korosten I found out that in a large operation in the whole area near Korosten, 700 to 100 persons had been arrested. I did not see the arrested people. The number of prisoners in Korosten from which I picked out those ten to twelve people, amounted to about sixty to seventy people.
Q In your affidavit you say that Dr. Rasch was present. How do you know that if you yourself were not present at the execution?
A I met Dr. Rasch at my departure from Korosten, having received a report by the AOK he had gone there to get his own information. Execution orders Rasch did not give in Korosten, as officers of Jeckeln, the Higher SS and Police Leader, were in charge of all of these operations there.
Q Witness, in your affidavit it says, under No. 6, page 130 of the English document book, and I quote: each". That is the end of my quotation. Does this statement refer to the statement of the executions in Korosten.
Please comment on the context and connection between these statements which you made to Mr. Wartenberg. an answer to the question as to the position of SK 4-a. At the time of the interrogation I said that the execution commandos of the SK 4-a were sub-commandos of the SK 4-a and at that time there were two sub-commandos which had been assigned to the front area, which contained 30 men of the protective police and approximately 30 to 35 People, state police, security police and men of the SD and, of course, drivers and interpreters. Each commando had half of the last mentioned category. In my interrogation I made this statement in answer to the question as to what was the strength of these execution commandos. But to put this sentence into the actual affidavit under No. 6 is illogical.
Q Furthermore, under No. 6 of your affidavit you describe explicitly the executions and that the President considered you as an expert in executions. Have you any comments or explanations or additions to make to that? answering individual questions about the actual carrying out of an execution, for instance. These statements are generally the description of an execution itself as they were carried out in the AOK under my leadership, and I think they also explain the matters regarding interrogations and sentences and examinations. The actual way of reproducing my statements were in a sort of a condensed form, as it is in paragraph 6 of the affidavit, and, of course, gives a distorted picture to the effect that the SK 4-a with the police and with the Ukrainian militia subordinated to it, actually carried out executions in Korosten and this is not the case. page 131 of the English document book. Have you any further comments regarding figure 8 of your affidavit, or have you anything to say in addition to it?
the following owrds are missing: "By order of the Higher SS and Police Leader took part in an operation."
Q This paragraph 8 of your affidavit deals with Kiev. In your testimony so far you have already commented on it, so that it is not necessary to repeat this subject. have you anything to say in addition to it, especially referring to your own person or your successor or your deputy, when you yourself were absent? Meyer who was in charge of SK 4-a when I was not present myself. I found this out later and I have already mentioned this during my testimony. come to Book 3-B of the Prosecution. It is on page 24 of the German text, it is Exhibit 119, it is Document No. 3842. BY THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you say Mr. Wartenberg did not indicate to you that you were not compelled to make any statement which might be interpreted as being adverse to your own interests?
Q Yes, that is what you said. Now had he said that, would you have withheld some of the statements which do appear in your affidavit? as I have already said.
Q Just a moment, please. You have gone over this affidavit paragraph by paragraph and almost sentence by sentence and we have understood your explanations so don't let us go into that. The question I am asking you is entirely separate and apart from what you have already told us. My question is simply this: Mr. Wartenberg failed to tell you that you were not required to make any statement which might be adverse to your interest? 1615
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Now my question is, if he had told you that would you have withheld some of the statements which you did make?
A No, I would not have withheld anything, your Honor. I said that I have nothing to withhold.
THE PRESIDENT: So the fact that he did not tell you that in no way prejudiced your case, because you would have spoken freely anyway, is that correct? this situation was only mentioned briefly in one point in the affidavit, and I had told him, Herr Wartenberg, this gives an erroneous and distorted picture.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not addressing myself as to that point of the affidavit at all. You have given us un some detail your version of what the interrogation really brought out, and you quarrel with some of the statements made here in the affidavit, and we understand that -
THE PRESIDENT: I will repeat it. Mr. Wartenberg didn't say to you "You are not required to make any statement which may be against your own interest."?
A No, he didn't say that.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Now let us suppose he had said to you, "Herr Blobel, you are not required to make any statement which may be against your own interest." Let us now suppose he did say that. Would you have told your story to him in any way different from the way in which you did tell it to him?
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I just wanted that answer, and you gave it to me very clearly.
BY DR. HEIM: It is Exhibit No. 119, Document No. NO-3842. I am not in a position unfortunately as to give you the English page. It is the affidavit of Eugen Steimle on 14 December 1945. On page of the German copy Steimle describes you as a bloodhound, brutal, and without any inhibition, and not very well liked. That is the end of the quotation. I want to ask you, witness, did you as leader of SK-4-A over have any dealing with the co-defendant Steimle? past activity as leader of SK-4-A? seen him, and I didn't know him.
DR. HEIM: Your Honor, I shall now proceed in questioning the witness concerning the further events after his return and his further activities. BY DR. HEIM:
Q Witness, you were speaking of your recall to Berlin?
Q You mentioned your return to Berlin, didn't you?
Q For what reason were you detailed to Berlin?
Q When did you arrive in Berlin?
Q To whom did you report and what instructions were you given there? me that Heydrich would decide as to a further appointment, and I would have to wait for the return of Heydrich.
Q Where did you go after you had reported to Streckenbach?
immediately, I went to see my family in Solingen.
Q Give us the details of your visit to Heydrich? Heydrich personally, in the middle of May 1942 I reported to Heydrich in his office. Heydrich sat at his desk. He looked at me, sitting in his chair, "Well, you have developed a "tummy" - a stomach. You are a soft person. You can only to be used as a china manufacturer," and this statement of his followed me through the years. "You will only be used in a porcelain or china factory, but I will put your nose very much deeper into it. You will report to Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller." I reported to Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller and he was very short. I was asked about my billet, then I was ordered to go to my accomodations in Berlin Wansee, and to wait for further instructions from Mueller. Department-IV, Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller? was assigned by Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller, who was chief of Office-IV, to deliver the order about burning of the places of execution to the Commanders of the Security Police in the east. this order?
A I had already been given the instruction to see Dr. Thomas, who was in charge of Security Police in Ukraine, in order to pass on this order to him. I had to wait further instructions, and, therefore, I could not leave immediately. In August '42 Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller ordered me to go to Litzmannstadt, and to report to the State Police Office there. In the vicinity of Litzmannstadt there were old tombs from the time of the Poles, where corpses had been cremated. Various kinds of cremations were carried out there. In September 1942 I had to pass on the order to the commander of the Security Police in the Ukraine. Dr. Thomas, Chief of Group-C, and at this time the commander of Security Police in Ukraine refused to carry this out pending a conference with Reichfuehrer Himmler.
He thought that this was a very foolish order, and this I reported to Mueller after my return. It was in May 1943 that I had to see Thomas again in order to report to him, that the Reichfuehrer-SS, in disregard of his objection, demanded a burning of all these places on the whole Eastern Front. Dr. Thomas in June, July and August 1942 began with this work. According to his express wish, I had to prepare special fuels in Berlin for this purpose fuel quotas which were to be supplied from the fuel plants in the Ukraine. That demanded constant travel from Berlin to Ukraine. In September 1943 the front shifted within the Ukraine sector. Until that point only a few places had been scorched. With the front going back, the work was discontinued. In September 1943 I had to pass on the same order to the commander of the Security Police in Eastland, who was Brigadierfuehrer Piffraner. Piffaner was in Berlin for a conference and had already received directives from Mueller in Berlin. The Higher SS and Police Leader Jockeln, who was Piffraner's superior, in his own sector begun with the scorching in October but he had discontinued this activity during the winter, and, only in June and July 1944 did he begin again. Here also the work was discontinued when the front shifted.
Q In what territories were these schorchings carried out? the eastland. ditions caused that?
Q What was your further assignment? RSHA, the Reich Security Main Office, and Gruppenfuehrer Roesner, in Leibach, and I was to be assigned in the partisan warfare. he had refused to deal with me, giving the reason that he had been assigned the mission of fighting partisans from the Reichfuehrer-SS, and he himself would make his own arrangements. I was supposed to go back to Berlin.
Court II-A Case IX
Q Did you actually work as liaison officer at any time?
Q Where did you spend the following months?
A The following months I spent in Marburg, on the Drau River. In January 1945 I developed a liver and gallbladder ailment there, and until 15 April 1945 I was in the hospital of Dr. Greiner.
Q Did you ever receive a further assignment? gave me a teletype on 13 March -- rather, the 13th April 1945, a teletype from the Reich Security Main Office in Berlin to the effect that on 11 April that was to be two days before - was to be in Berlin and report to Office-I. Therefore, the deadline had already passed.
Q Where were you during the last months of the war?
A From Marburg on the Drau I went to Salzburg. During the end of April 1945 Kaltenbrunner arrived and I reported to him. He presented me to his staff, he said: "Please, gentlemen, dispose over him," and without awaiting any further orders or assignment, I went in a volkswagen to the south, and joined the troops there, and crossed the High Tower Mountains.
Q When and under what conditions did you become a prisoner? went back the same way, because the Russians were pressing towards the north. My car burned down and to save myself I was dressed in my undershirt and a pair of trousers - I went to Rastatt where I was arrested by the Americans on 8 May.
Q To what camps were you sent?
A The first camp was in Rastatt; then Wagrheim, and after that a camp in a forest that was called Edelfing - and the Eidling Reid (Lake); then the Field Hospital 504. From Field Hospital 504 I was moved to Hospital 2057. That was in Garmisch. That was in August 1945. you were arrested? times, and thirty-five centimeters of intestines had to be removed. These were the after effects of the Wohlhynian fever. Then I also had trouble with my heart muscle. On 23 May 1947 I arrived in Nurnberg.
DR. HEIM: I have finished with the direct examination of the witness Blobel in his own defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Defense counsel may now cross-examine Blobel if any defense counsel desires to cross-examine.
DR. RATZ: Dr. Ratz for Radetsky. BY DR. RATZ: affidavit contained in Document Book I, page 159 of the German text, page 129 of English. In the last paragraph in your affidavit you have said verbatim the following, I quote:
"9. Since, during the period from June 1941 until January 1942, I was several times seriously ill, and confined to various hospitals, I cannot be charged with responsibility for all the executions of the Sonderkommando 4-A. During the period of my absence the kommando was taken over by Dr. Rasch, Haupsturmfuehrer Waldemar von Radetsky, and Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Beyer; under their direction a number of mass executions took place too." that it was not Radetsky but Hauptsturmfuehrer Mayer that commanded Special Kommando 4-A in your absence. I now ask you to explain in detail how this No. 9 in your affidavit came to be made out.
A Paragraph No. 9 of the affidavit of on the 6th of June, 1947, came to be made out in the following manner: Mr. Wartenberg asked me who commanded the kommando during my absence, and he named a few officers who belonged to the Kommando. I certainly did not know for the simple reason because of illness I was absent and when I left I did not order that this man or the other man assume command, for I was unconscious and had high fever. Only later when I returned to the kommando in Zhitomir, I heard that Hauptsturmfuehrer Mayer had been in charge of the kommando. He was the permanent deputy of Group C with the Higher SS and Police Leader Jeckeln, and he was also present with him in Lutsk. At that time the SS and Police Leader Jeckeln ordered him to assume command of the Kommando. That is what I learned when I returned to Zhitomir; during the entire period of my absence Mayer actually did lead the kommando.
During my interrogation by Mr. Wertenberg, I did not remember this. I had been in the hospital in Garmisch for two years and came to prison right from my hospital bed, and on the second day after my arrival I was questioned about all these matters. Von Radetzky I always remembered as being the highest ranking officer, so that Mr. Wartenberg and I both assumed that von Radetzky must have taken over the command during my absence. But I had forgotten at that time that Radetzky was an interpreter and on a war emergency status. It would have been absolutely senseless to use an officer on a war emergency status and have him do police duties such as Dr.Funk did.
Dr. Rasch was the commander of Einsatzgruppe C. He doubtless led Special Kommando 4-A during my absence too, but he certainly must have given his consent to Jeckeln that Obersturmbannfuehrer Mayer should assume command. A Dr. Beyer at that time, during my absence was detailed to the SK from the Group in order to conduct an investigation about a dispute between myself and an Army officer. the mentioning of Radetzky in my affidavit, as my deputy,is not correct. It is to be traced back to an error on my part. This mistake can be explained by the face that after all this time had passed, and because of my weakened condition, I could not remember all the details. Mr. Wartenberg and I sort of discussed who could this have been, who could have been my deputy, and as a result of this discussion in this manner this paragraph 9 mentioned the name of Radetzky.
Q Another question. In another document it is said that the Defendant von Radetzky was commanding officer of the Advance Kommando Lutsk. please comment on this.
MR. HORLICK-HOCHWALD: If Dr. Ratz intends to ask the witness questions about a document, it seems to be only fair if he shows the witness the document and informs the Tribunal and the Prosecution to which document he refers.
THE PRESIDENT: That is proper.
DR. RATZ: Your Honors, this is an affidavit in Document Book III-C, page 47 of the German book. This is Document NO-4765, Exhibit 137.
MR. HOCHWALD: Page 30 of the English Document Book, your Honor. BY DR. RATZ: officer of Advance Kommando Lutsk?
A From Sokal an advance kommando of SK-4-A went to Lutsk. This was done as ordered by the Commander-in-Chief of AOK 6 northerly route, a middle route and southerly route. The commanding officer of this subkommando was this Dr. Funk. He was the senior ranking officer. He had to report to the division commander there and to receive his orders about security measures. von Radetzky was then sent along with the safe blasting unit. They dealt with cutting and welding instruments, finger-printing material etc., and it was his job to capture enemy documents. In Lutsk they found maps and charts of a Russian General Staff which were very important for the Army command. A courier called for this material, and as far as I remember it was Haeffner who was then liaison officer with Army Command 6. Radetzky was, therefore, free and independent of Dr. Funk with his six men and drivers. He had a special mission and was not tied down to any one locality, and I never heard that Redetzky participated in an execution in Lutsk, as I can say with my honest conviction he never participated in any execution.
Q Another question: Why shouldn't Radetzky be in command of the other men of Special Kommando 4-a? had been distributed there as per orders, I took Radetzky aside and I told him that as a wearer of the uniform and as a Hauptsturmfuehrer, he could not act as the commanding officer of the other leaders since, first of all, the others had previous police training and he was only assigned to the kommando as an interpreter on a war emergency status. The officers who had been trained in police measures, who had been criminal commissars by vocation and who were leaders of the Executive Service with Special Kommando 4-a were given the command of the sub-kommandos in the nature of a training course, whereas Radetzky and Mueller were interpreters and were too busy themweilves with interpreting jobs. Radetzky knew the Russian language and was competent for the Russian reports and Mueller knew the Ukrainian country since many years, especially as a business man, and was competent to deal with Ukrainian documents. the Army command 6? with Army command 6, which continued to be mutually exchanged in order to exchange reports. With Army Command 6 there was a Department of Economics and in this department, there was much more material to be found than in this small special kommando, and Radetzky evaluated this material in his reports. Later on, around September 1941, even laterit must have been later -- Radetzky was appointed by the group as permanent liaison officer to the Army command 6. As liaison officer, he operate between Army command 6 and Einsatzgruppe C, but he was listed in the personnel file under SK 4a. At that time he was active for SK 4-a and he lead the supply unit; as a liaison officer,his main job was to regulate the communications between Army command 6,Group C and the Army Group, but in detail I don't know about his activity.
Q Witness, do you know anything about Radetzky's further activity as liaison officer to the Army Command 6 when Radetzky was detailed as liaison officer to Army Command 6? the 26th of September, 1941. Until that time Carlton was liaison officer, because Army Command 6 was up in the north and he was close to it with his sub-kommando. When the leaders of the Executive Service were relieved, Radetzky was ordered to Army Command 6, for there was a great lack of officers and SK 4-a no longer had any officers and Radetzky after these leaders left, was ordered to report to the Army Command 6 by car, but the car broke down and he was brought into Kiev with a Horch car. I was in the sick room and the Chief of Staff Hoffmann visited me and asked me for a report about the conditions in Kiev and, since the Higher SS and Police leaders had ordered the action, we could not report about the total situation. One might merely have mentioned that the SK 4-a had been participating with 15 men. Therefore, I rejected Hoffmann's demand. I told him this would distort the picture, but, as I already said, I already had reports, but still he would not let well enough alone. However, Hoffmann did not receive any reports from me that day, but the possibility exists that subsequently on the next day Hoffmann did ask again and then dictated the report in his orderly room and might have had it signed. It was around this time that Radetzky broke down in his Horch car on his trip to the Army Command 6 and was then brought back to Kiev. perform? Radetzky always stayed with the Army Command. I saw him again when in the beginning of December, or on the 27th or 28th of November, we left Kiev, that is, around the turn of the month, we marched through Poltawa and I had to report to the Field Marshal in order to get an order to march into the front territory.
The front area could not be entered without having definite orders to that effect on the marching papers and one could not leave the front area either. At that time Radetzky told me about a furlough, but this did not depend on me, but it had to be granted by the Einsatzgruppe because the latter needed a new liaison officer to Army Command 6 and, as far as I recall, in the middle, or, in the last third of December, 1941, he left on furlough; but I can't remember that I ever saw him again. In this connection, I can emphasize once more that Radetzky never received any orders from me to conduct executions or to participate in such. What happened during my absence I don't know from my own knowledge.
Q Now a final question, Witness, in order to come back to Radetzky's position as going under a war emergency status, what position did Radetzky have in this status? as an interpreter. This could be seen clearly from his pay. Just like other interpreters on a war emergency status, Radetzky drew per diem pay, whereas the criminal kommissars, the criminal offices drew salaries at home. The Special Kommando consisted of officials of the State Police, of the Criminal Police, and of the SD, and further of active people of the sphere of the SS or so-called people ordered to the Waffen SS and furthermore of people on an officer emergency status. He did not have a rank as an official and as a man on an emergency status, he merely had the right to wear the uniform, according to his rank which he held in an SS formation and this does not mean anything and it separates him from the active leaders. That he was an SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer in the Security Police also separates him from the other people and among the drivers who were the uniform of Untersturmfuehrer that did not show,because in the General SS they held this rank and therefore it was not decisive in the SK 4-a what rank you held in the SS, hut what rank you held as a civil servant. If Radetzky was an honorary officer of an SS unit, he would have had to have been six or seven years with the SS in order to become an SS Untersturmfuehrer, but all told, the SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Radetzky did not have an equivalent rank and was not supposed to be considered in the same nature as Dr. Funk or Dr. Janssen, who held a civil service rating, that is, criminal commissar or officer of the Executive Service.
Radetsky was merely used there on the basis of his own personal knowledge.
DR. HEMM: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other defense counsel wish to cross-examine the witness Blobel? If not, the Prosecution may begin its cross examination. BY DR. HOCHWALD: May it please the Tribunal.
Q Mr. Blobel, what was your rank in May 1941?
Q That is the rank of a full colonel, is it not? colonel, it was just Standartenfuehrer in the SD. German army? Is it?
A No, not in this connection. This concept only arose after the war. It was not equivalent to a Standartanfuehrer in the Waffen SS, where this designation had army privileges. the rank of a lieutenant or a captain, -- or, what was it? I would like to know what equivalent it was.
A Well, in 1941 there was no equivalent. It was merely the agency leader of SD Unit, who could be an Obersturmbannfuehrer.
Q Let me rephrase my question now. When you came to the east as a Standartenfuehrer and you met a major or a lieutenant colonel of the army, who of you had the higher rank when you were both in uniform? rank. I had the rank of SS Standartenfuehrer in the SD, and the other was a major in the Wehrmacht.
Q Mr. Blobel, I don't think that you answered my question. It was a very simple question ... when you met a major or a lieutenant colonel of the army, and you were yourself in the uniform of a Standartenfuehrer - who of you was the higher ranking man? It's not a question whether uniforms were different.
A None. Because the officer of the Wehrmacht had his rank, and I was a Standartenfuehrer SS. I was addressed as such.
Q All right. In Germany officers used to salute each other, and the lower ranging officer saluted the higher ranking officer first. So when you, being a Standartenfuehrer, being in a uniform of the SS met a lieutenant colonel of the Wehrmacht, was he supposed to salute you first?
A We both saluted each other as officers. They could see that it was not an equivalent rank.
Q That is not the question. How long have you been wearing a uniform?
Q Will you give me an answer, please? How long have you been wearing a uniform in your career as an SS man? with the SD, temporarily.
Q All right. How many years was that?
Q So let us say approcimately ten years? of military and SS regulations is very scanty. It take it from your information that you do not know whether a Standartenfuehrer was in the rank of a colonel or was not.
We will ascertain that in another way.
Mr. Blobel, when you were first sent from Berlin to Pretsch in May 1941, did you know that you were supposed to take over a Command of an Einsatzkommando, or a Sonderkommando?
A No, I did not know that previously. I only heard that in Pretsch.
Q Why do you think you were sent to Pretsch? Did you have an idea what you were going to do there?
A No, I did not know it at all. I could just as well have been called to hear Heydrich or a conference with him, as he used to have them, or it could be anything. It was not known.
Q It could not be only a meeting, could it? you to report to Rasch?
A Yes, I had to report to Rasch. Rasch told us that the officers who had to report to him, were under his command, and on the same day on which I met Rasch there we were all ordered to report to the officers school in Pretsch. Streckenbach?
A Yes, that was the day of Streckenbach's speech. where Streckenbach spoke? What, exactly, did Rasch tell you , ... that you were under his command, you said? What kind of command? Did he tell you something about Einsatzgruppen? Did he tell you that you would be the leader of a Sonderkommando? What did he tell you?
A Dr. Rasch didn't tell me anything. He didn't know anything himself.
under his command, but he did not know what kind of command that would be? Is that what you. are telling the Tribunal? Dr. Rasch, and that Dr. Rasch would take us to this conference.
Q All right. You knew that you were commanded. What I wanted to find out is, what did Rasch tell you? It is very easy -- I do not think this question is complicated to understand, witness. What did Rasch tell you? He told you you are under his command. All right. Did he tell you what kind of command it would be?
A No, he did not know anything about it himself. He only said: "In the afternoon you have to report to Pretsch."
Q So he did not tell you that you were under his command?
A He told us, "You are now assigned to me and you have to report to the school in Pretsch this afternoon about three o'clock together with me. I'll meet you there."
Q That is all you heard?
Q And you were at that meeting where Streckenbach spoke?
Q Who, of the defendants, was present at that meeting?
A Dr. Rasch, Dr. Hoffmann. Of the defendants I think i saw Ohlendorf. The others ware strange to me, I didn't know them. present at this meeting were the defendant Ohlendorf and Rasch, is that right?
A Ohlendorf, Rasch, Dr.Hoffmann.
Q Dr. Hoffmann is not a defendant in this trial. So - these two, Ohlendorf and Rasch.