Q You don't know anything about that; you were in Minsk during the month of July, during the period while this was taking place, but you don't know anything about that?
A I don't know whether this happened during that time. The term "by the troops who first passed through there", this expression might mean a time which starts at a period when I had already left. In any case, I don't know about the civilian prison camp which was combed out by the Security Police or by the Group during those three days while I was in Minsk, I don't know anything about that.
Q Would you turn to Page 28 of the same document book. I don't know the German number. It is Document NO-4537 (B). You will notice under Einsatzkommando 7a -
A I beg your pardon, I haven't got it.
Q It is the next to the last page of Document NO-4537 (E) , which should he just a few pages before the document we have just been looking at.
A Do you mean page 32?
Q I don't know the German page. It is the report of 3 July 1941 under Einsatzkommando 7a, Document 4537 (E). time, were you not?
A You are talking about the report on Wilna? the Communist Party were liquidated. That was done under your command, was it not? ed particularly that I considered this report to be wrong. I also tried to explain it.
your command and you said "Yes". Do you change your answer?
A No. I always emphasized and made it very clear that my kommando did not carry out any shootings in Wilna. out executions in Wilna is wrong? Blume Document Book, page 63. I don't know what page it is of the German, but it is a report of 2 July. It is page 63. It is the report of 2 July at which time you were in command of Einsatzkommando 7a, and it it says that operation started for the arrest of Communists and Jews, and approximately 8,000 Jews in Wilna. Does that mean that 5,000 Jews in Wilna were arrested? report does not talk of the arrest of 5,000 Jews, but the figure, 8,000 obviously is, according to the German wording, an objective statement of the figure of the Jews living in Wilna. Concerning the first sentense where it says that Sonderkommando 7a carried out an operation of arrest against Communists and Jews, I want to explain it like this Already this morning I described - or was it Friday - that I visited the local kommando in Wilna, I talked to this man when discussing security questions with him. I pointed out to him that in the interest of security the arrests of Communists in Wilna should he carried out and arranged by him, and that it was necessary that the Jews living in Wilna be put into ghettos and supervised there. I reported about this to Nebe and he formulated it as is written here. Wilna, and that they be put into a ghetto, is that correct? it was done because he was remaining there and he had under him the Secret Field Police for this purpose.
that correct?
A "Order" is not the right expression because he was not subordinate to me. I merely informed him that this security measure was expected of him. kill all the Jews, did you not? into a ghetto, you knew that they would all be killed in accordance with the Hitler order, did you not? modify the Hitler order. in Wilna. That is, I did what I thought was possible in order not to evade the Fuehrer order very much. Anything beyond that I could not avoid. and put them into a ghetto, and yon knew at that time that there was an order outstanding to have all the Jews killed?
Q Didn't you know that in ordering them to be arrested and put into a ghetto you were assisting in the murder of defenseless people? the actual carrying out of this order would never come about or that at least it would be rescinded. My attempt in Vibosk proves this. why did you go out of your way to instruct somebody,who, you say, was not your subordinate, to arrest all the Jews. Why didn't you just let them escape?
and I only tried to evade the order to such an extent as I personally considered it intenable.
Q In other words, you didn't care if somebody else killed the Jews and if you helped them to do it as long as you didn't have to carry it out yourself, is that correct? draw that conclusion. I would have been glad if there had been an other possibility. kill the Jews or if the Jews were not killed, yet you instructed somebody who was not your subordinate to arrest them and put them in a ghetto.
A Well, I tried to explain it before: in carrying out the order I did what I considered justifiable. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness - Pardon me, Mr. Ferencz. In answer to Mr. Ferencz's question as to why you did a certain thing in Wilna , well, you did there what you did in Vitobsk, but Vitobsk followed Wilna. You were in Wilna in the early part of July or latter part of June and didn't reach the other city for another two weeks. That is true, isn't it?
Q Yes, well, then you couldn't use What you did in Vitobsk as a precedent for what you did in Wilna since it followed in point of timee. to believe this, what my ideas were, from the very beginning. Of course, this report by me on the Jews was only made in Vitobsk. My emphasis is merely to point out what feelings and ideas led me from the very beginning.
QWell, I don't think that you have answered Mr. Ferencz's question which was very specific, namely, if you did not want to see defense less Jews executed and you wished to evade that part of the Fuehrer order why did you in Wilna go out of your way to instruct someone who was not subordinate to you to arrest Jews end place them in a ghetto where, being isolated, they could very easily be subject to the Fuehrer order of execution.
Now, please answer that question directly and don't refer us to Vitobsk.
That part of the Fuehrer Order which I considered right and possible, I thought I had to carry out here. If I had not done anything, it would have been an absolute and complete refusal to obey which I could not do and which I did not do. place where there could be no doubt as to their identity that they could become subject to the Fuehrer Order which ordered their execution. hopes for a alteration of this order existed as ever. extent of having them collected, hoping that after they had been collected that then through some chance they might not be killed? BY MR. FERENCZ: Sec. Is that the same place as is shown in our documents to be Lachowicze?
A In my document?
Q No, you referred to your Kommando being in Loswitha See. The documents refer to a place spelled L-a-c-h-o-w-i-c-z-e. Is that the same place?
A I cannot say that. I only know the lake under the name of Loswitha Lake, L-o-s-w-i-t-h-a, but may I ask you which documents you are referring to? from the top, there is the word, Lachowicze. Is that the same place as what you described as Loswitha See? Is thus the Russian spelling for it, or is that another place?
A I still have not found the report. I hardly think so, because that is a completely different word. It doesn't say there is a lake. There is a locality that is named -
and saboteurs were shot by your kommando, is that correct?
A No, I did not say that. I talked about the fact, that during the time of my command after Smolensk, approximately 20 partisans and saboteurs were shot by my kommando. There not only the time on the Loswitha Lake is concerned. had told the farmers not to bring in the harvest. Do you recall that ? think so, is that correct?
Q Tell me, what sort of a trial did these men have? selves and also through wetnesses who were questioned. I then personally judged then end sentenced them.
Q How long did the trial last? omitted. Of course, it depended on where those men had stopped the farmer's from bringing in the harvest.
Q How long did the trial last? shot under your command? decision.
Q what did the accused say in their defense? witnesses proved the opposite. Apart from that , they could not prove where they came from. Obviously they had been sent over by the Russians.
Q Tell me with what crimes were those men charged? make them destroy the harvest; that is, only to keep back as much as they needed for their personal consumption. In other words, they wanted to make impossible for the German Army to get food from the country. their countrymen not to assist an aggressive invader? That was a crime which you deemed punishable by death? helped in seizing such men.
Q Answer my question, please. My question is: These men were charged with trying to have their countrymen refuse to assist an aggressive invader, and you consider this a crime punishable by death? It was an appack on the possibility of the German Army to carry out the Russian campaign successfully.
Q Are yoy familiar with the rules of war? which decreed that saboteurs and functionairies were to be shot. the Nazi invaders as a saboteurs, because he refused to help the Nazis and that was worthy of the death sentence which you invoked?
Q Are you familiar with the rules of war? Order. That was my war Law.
Q You don't know any other war law than the Fuehrer Order? You followed none other, is that correct?
A You are thinking of the Hague Convention?
and disregarded any other rules of war? Convention would allow such a possibility, but according to the situation in the East and the attitude of most of the people themselves
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, are you leaving this incident?
MR. FERENCZ: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I just wanted to ask one question. Witness, when you related your episode before you said that the crime of the men was that they had told the farmers not to bring in the harvest. Did I understand you correctly?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I ordered it.
THE PRESIDENT: So that whatever they did, it was confined to what they said? It was a matter of what they said?
THE WITNESS: Of course, people were threatened too and in the manner of the partisan combatting in Russia, one could expect that partisans who could not carry out their orders, because the population refused to help them, could be used as reprisals.
THE PRESIDENT: You told us when you volunteered this story that these three men had told the farmers not to bring in the harvest. Now is that what you told us on Friday?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and do you still stand on that?
THE WITNESS: I want to extent my statement by saying what I just said.
THE PRESIDENT: But whatever they did,was confined to a speech. They themselvesdid not set fire to any harvest or in any way destroy the harvest?
THE WITNESS: No, they merely asked for this under threats.
Q (By Mr. Ferencz) I call your attention now to Document Book II-B, page 24 of the English, page 24 of the German. Here is says which 74 persons were shot. Was that once under your command? out during my time.
Q In that event, we'll turn to some things you admitted yesterday. You stated in your direct testimony that on about the 7th of July members of Einsatzkommando 7a, which was under your command at that time, executed about 50 or 60 persons in Minsk, is that correct? is that correct?
Q. Describe, if you will, what you saw while your subordinated were shooting down these 50 or 60 people.
A. On Friday I gave a detailed description of this occurrence.
Q. Did your men use whips?
A. No.
Q. Here the victims all males?
A. Yes. Only men.
Q. Did they resist in any way?
A. No.
Q. Were they singing, as Ohlendorf told us the people were doing, whom this kommando shot?
A. No.
Q. In other words, they went along like sheep to the slaughter, without resistance, without comments, without struggle of any kind. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And 50 or 60 persons were shot at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday you mentioned also that in Witebsk, as shown in the reports 27 Jews had been shot for not coming to work; and they were shot by Einsatzkommando 7-A, which was under your command at that time. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that Foltis did that on Nebe's order, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is Nebe?
A. Nebe is dead.
Q. Where is Foltis?
A. Foltis was killed in the war.
Q. Did you reprimand Foltis for this action - shooting defenseless people down in the streets?
A. No, I already mentioned that I even reported this event to Nebe in order to calm him down.
Q. In other words, you used this to your own advantage, rather than checking it, and reprimanding it as being something wrong?
A. It was impossible for me, after the scene in Minsk, to inform a leader subordinate to me about carrying out an order and to reprimand him about carrying out an order of a superior.
Q. In other words, you did nothing to reprimand Foltis, or to indicate your displeasure at his action in shooting down defenseless people?
A. That I, as a man, did not feel inclined towards this, Foltis certainly knew - but I had not the possibility of reproaching him.
Q. Now, you stated also that in Witebsk on the 13th of July you personally ordered the execution of about 80 people. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were present during the whole time, when these people were being killed, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew at that time, did you not, that innocent people were being shot?
A. I knew that these shootings were part of the Fuehrer decree, and therefore I had to order it. I know that the individual could not be proven to have committed any crime. The general reason given here for the shooting order was the only reason I knew and the only one I had heard of.
Q. In other words, you did know that you were shooting innocent people, did you not?
A. I know, as I have already said, that none of them could be proven to have committed any crime.
Q. Then they were innocent and defenseless people?
A. The Fuehrer decree had given a reason...... That was the only thing we thought of, and I said, myself, that it was not sufficient as a reason for me, personally.
Q. Why don't you answer my question, Blume? I am asking you...... I am asking you if you knew that innocent people were being shot, people who had committed no crime, people who had done nothing wrong against anyone, and they were being shot because they had Jewish blood, or because you thought they had Jewish blood.
A. Jewish blood was never mentioned. All that was mentioned in the Fuehrer decree was they they were bearers of the Bolshevist idea. That was the only thing we realized.
Q. Were they all Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any investigation of any kind to determine whether they were Communists, or opposed to the Communists, or whether they had taken any political action at any time?
A. No.
Q. Then you assumed, by the mere fact that they were Jewish, that they were bearers of Bolshevism, and that they should be killed. Is that correct?
A. I have already stated that the Fuehrer decree maintained this as a motive for the order given to us. As part of this order, and pressure by Nebe, I have carried out these shootings.
Q. Were children shot at that time, and by your Gruppe?
A. I explained expressly, that women and children were never shot by me.
Q. In other words, you did not agree, and do not agree, with Ohlendorf's view that children had to be shot inasmuch as they constituted a future security threat to Germany? Do you agree, or did you agree, with that view?
A. No, or else I would have done it. I just could not do it.
Q. And at this execution in Witebsk which you ordered and supervised, were there any beatings?
A. No.
Q. And 80 people again walked like lambs to slaughter quietly, and were shot?
A. Yes.
Q. And you described the methods you used to relieve your men of the mental strain...... You say you sat with them, and you told them this was necessary, you were protecting the German women, and you tried to divert their minds from their work....... Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do to ease the minds of the people who were about to be murdered?
A. I did everything I could. That is, I made them realize as late as possible what was going to happen to them, and then carried out the shooting as quickly as possible.
Q. Did you go and talk to them, and tell them...... People, you are going to be shot, but this is for the Fuehrer....... Did you say anything to them? What did you do?
A. No.
Q. In other words, you were very busy trying to cheer up the murderers, but you did nothing to help the victims? And that is the extent of your humanness?
A. I believe that I could not have done more for the victims.
Q. You mean you could not have done more than nothing except to shoot them?
A. I did it in as humane a manner as possible.
Q. You say you were so sick afterwards that you had to go home and vomit at the thought of the executions which were carried out under your command......is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't it also true that later, in Kadari, you had a concentration camp under your command?
A. Yes. As far as administration work.
Q. Isn't it also true that you received an order when you were Security Police commander in June 1942, you received an order from Himmler to execute whole clans, or relatives, of anybody assisting the Partisans?
A. No. I did not got any such orders.
Q. Let me refresh your memory. We will just be a few moments, your Honor. I will show you the order from Himmler, saying that you are in charge of a group, and that if anyone assists partisans the whole.....all the relatives are to be killed. That order, which you have before you now, states, in paragraph 8, that SS Standartenfuehrer Blume will be in charge of certain security police actions, and on the next page the inclosure says that the men of a guilty family, in many cases the whole clan, are to be executed on principle. The women are to be arrested and taken to a concentration camp. But the children are to be removed from their homes, etcetera.
Do you remember that order now?
A. Yes. But may I explain and emphasize that you talk about Kadari, and not of Feldes. I therefore thought of Greece, and not of Feldes.
Q. I am talking of two different places. I am sorry you were confused. But in spite of the fact that you had to vomit at the sight of murders which you ordered, you still received from Himmler additional orders to carry out executions of defenseless people, and were the commander of a concentration camp, is that true?
A. This activity in Feldes I am very proud of. The reason is that here, for once, I succeeded in stopping the carrying out of this order and modifying it.
Q. We are not charging you with any crimes in Feldes. And I am just asking you......is it true that you received such an order......and what is your answer? Is it true that you received such an order, did you or didn't you? An order from Himmler...... and it has your name on it.
A. Yes; I do not remember the order in detail, but I know the measures which had been ordered in Feldes, and if it suits you I would like to describe briefly how I reacted to this.
Q. I have only one more question. Is it correct to say that under your command, units killed 50 to 60 innocent people in Minsk - 50 to 60 in Wellesch - plus 27 on the streets of Witebsk plus 80 in Witebsk - under your supervision, giving a total of about 200 people killed by units under your command while you were in command?
A. Yes, I agree to this.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 5 November 1947.)
Otto Ohlendorf, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg
THE MARHSAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. MAYER (Attorney for the defendant Steimle): Your Honor, after the witness Blume, who is now on the witness stand, it will be the turn of the defendant Sandberger, who is ill at the moment. Next would be the defendant Seibert and I am the defense counsel for Steimle. I have a request to make of the High Tribunal, that I may take the case of Steimle next, because Steimle took over Sonderkommando 7a from Blume and therefore this case would follow the present line.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have a report from the prison that Sandberger is ill and unable to appear in court?
And what is the report on Seibert?
DR. MAYER: The defendant Seibert belongs to another Einsatzgruppe, while the defendant Steimle belongs to the same Einsatz group as the defendant Blume.
MR. FERENCZ: If your Honors please, the prosecution has no objection to the suggestion of the defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Mayer, the Tribunal will then hear the defendant Steimle when the defendant Blume will have left the stand.
DR. MAYER: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are very welcome.
DR. SCHWARZ (Attorney for the defendant Jost): Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Jost be excused today from the session. He just told me that he is not feeling well.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of the report made by counsel, the defendant Jost will be excused from attendance in court today on account of illness. The Marshal will see that he is taken from the court room.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome.
(The defendant Jost was excused from court.)
DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for the defendant Schulz): Your Honor, I take the liberty to ask that after having examined the defendant Blume, I should like to hear a witness. It is the witness, Dr. Lane. He arrived here a few days ago and has to go away on official business. The examination will be very short.
THE PRESIDENT: Your request is granted.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Lummert.
DR. LUMMERT: Attorney for the Defendant Blume. I ask to be allowed to address a few questions to the witness in redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. LUMMERT: had partisans shot, or saboteurs, after having examined these persons closely and finding them guilty. Mr. Ferencz asked you in this connection whether you knew the International Laws and the laws of warfare. You yourself pointed out the Hague Convention. In your reply you then said that you acted following a Fuehrer Order. At that point it was not quite clear which Fuehrer Decree was meant. Could you give an explanation about that, please? which, in view of the partisan fighting which was expected in Russia, and saboteur actions, and political activists, permitted and ordered that every officer of the German Army be allowed to shoot saboteurs and partisans on their own authority and sentence them to death. I thought of that decree.
THE PRESIDENT: This may have been an inversion of order on the part of the interpreter, or it may be this is the way the witness stated it, but the way we got it was that every officer was permitted to shoot partisans and then authorize their execution.
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, may I add that the translation into English out of German has such great difficulties, because the verb in the German is only at the end and we have to guess it, while in the English, it is at the beginning of the sentence. In this case I noticed exactly that the translator imagined the word to be shot beforehand and then the witness used another word, and that is why the word "sentence" came after "shot."
THE PRESIDENT: The correction and the explanation will appear on the record. BY DR. LUMMERT: at the time told that saboteurs and partisans could be sentenced to death and how were they told about this?
A Such announcements were made by posters in cities. Leaflets were dropped by plane over the flat land. this Special Fuehrer Decree?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Witness, were leaflets dropped to inform the Jews that they were going to be executed? THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. They only mentioned saboteurs and partisans in these leaflets.
DR. LUMMERT: Now, your Honor, I have one more question about the point Mr. Ferencz raised at the very end of the session yesterday. Mr. Ferencz gave the witnessra document and last night when I talked to the witness he told me that he did not have sufficient time to look at the document very closely; that he was not even able to determine whether his own name appeared in the document or not. I have no doubt about it, because Mr. Ferencz said so yesterday however it is not certain exactly where the name of the witness appears whether it was in the middle of the text or in the address.
I could not find that myself yesterday either and before I am able to put further questions in the redirect examination I therefore wanted to ask Mr. Ferencz to let me have this document for a short moment to look into it, if he would be so kind.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I have just sent for the document. I do not have it with me. It was just shown to the witness for the purpose of refreshing his memory on a very collateral point and I don't think we should go into a lengthy examination of it, inasmuch as I do not intend to introduce it as an exhibit. I can assure the Tribunal that on page 1 Nauman is mentioned as Commanding Officer of a certain Group and the second part which I showed him was an Enclosure describing what actions should be taken against partisans. I showed the defendant the enclosure and asked him a question concerning that and that was all.
DR. LUMMERT: Mr. Ferencz just mentioned the name "Nauman". I presume that it is a mistake. He meant Blume.
I do not want to take the Tribunal's time unnecessarily. Perhaps it is not necessary of all that I address further questions to the witness, particularly since the document was not submitted as an exhibit, and therefore has not become part of the record, Perhaps it may be a good way out if I put the question aside for the moment and request from the Tribunal, after having seeing the document, to come back to this point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is always disposed to assist counsel in the presentation of its case and will leave it to Dr. Lummert to decide whether he wishes to examine on this or not. If the document will be here in a matter of a minute or two, we would prefer that the examination on that subject be finished now. If it is a matter of ten minutes or more, then we could come back to it later.
DR. LUMMERT: Yes, your Honor, At the moment, I have no further questions of the witness and ask that the document be handed over.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. LUMMERT: Apart from that, may I mention the following? I had the intention of having a witness Radl called to the witness stand yesterday.