Q. Describe, if you will, what you saw while your subordinated were shooting down these 50 or 60 people.
A. On Friday I gave a detailed description of this occurrence.
Q. Did your men use whips?
A. No.
Q. Here the victims all males?
A. Yes. Only men.
Q. Did they resist in any way?
A. No.
Q. Were they singing, as Ohlendorf told us the people were doing, whom this kommando shot?
A. No.
Q. In other words, they went along like sheep to the slaughter, without resistance, without comments, without struggle of any kind. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And 50 or 60 persons were shot at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Yesterday you mentioned also that in Witebsk, as shown in the reports 27 Jews had been shot for not coming to work; and they were shot by Einsatzkommando 7-A, which was under your command at that time. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You say that Foltis did that on Nebe's order, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Where is Nebe?
A. Nebe is dead.
Q. Where is Foltis?
A. Foltis was killed in the war.
Q. Did you reprimand Foltis for this action - shooting defenseless people down in the streets?
A. No, I already mentioned that I even reported this event to Nebe in order to calm him down.
Q. In other words, you used this to your own advantage, rather than checking it, and reprimanding it as being something wrong?
A. It was impossible for me, after the scene in Minsk, to inform a leader subordinate to me about carrying out an order and to reprimand him about carrying out an order of a superior.
Q. In other words, you did nothing to reprimand Foltis, or to indicate your displeasure at his action in shooting down defenseless people?
A. That I, as a man, did not feel inclined towards this, Foltis certainly knew - but I had not the possibility of reproaching him.
Q. Now, you stated also that in Witebsk on the 13th of July you personally ordered the execution of about 80 people. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were present during the whole time, when these people were being killed, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew at that time, did you not, that innocent people were being shot?
A. I knew that these shootings were part of the Fuehrer decree, and therefore I had to order it. I know that the individual could not be proven to have committed any crime. The general reason given here for the shooting order was the only reason I knew and the only one I had heard of.
Q. In other words, you did know that you were shooting innocent people, did you not?
A. I know, as I have already said, that none of them could be proven to have committed any crime.
Q. Then they were innocent and defenseless people?
A. The Fuehrer decree had given a reason...... That was the only thing we thought of, and I said, myself, that it was not sufficient as a reason for me, personally.
Q. Why don't you answer my question, Blume? I am asking you...... I am asking you if you knew that innocent people were being shot, people who had committed no crime, people who had done nothing wrong against anyone, and they were being shot because they had Jewish blood, or because you thought they had Jewish blood.
A. Jewish blood was never mentioned. All that was mentioned in the Fuehrer decree was they they were bearers of the Bolshevist idea. That was the only thing we realized.
Q. Were they all Jews?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you make any investigation of any kind to determine whether they were Communists, or opposed to the Communists, or whether they had taken any political action at any time?
A. No.
Q. Then you assumed, by the mere fact that they were Jewish, that they were bearers of Bolshevism, and that they should be killed. Is that correct?
A. I have already stated that the Fuehrer decree maintained this as a motive for the order given to us. As part of this order, and pressure by Nebe, I have carried out these shootings.
Q. Were children shot at that time, and by your Gruppe?
A. I explained expressly, that women and children were never shot by me.
Q. In other words, you did not agree, and do not agree, with Ohlendorf's view that children had to be shot inasmuch as they constituted a future security threat to Germany? Do you agree, or did you agree, with that view?
A. No, or else I would have done it. I just could not do it.
Q. And at this execution in Witebsk which you ordered and supervised, were there any beatings?
A. No.
Q. And 80 people again walked like lambs to slaughter quietly, and were shot?
A. Yes.
Q. And you described the methods you used to relieve your men of the mental strain...... You say you sat with them, and you told them this was necessary, you were protecting the German women, and you tried to divert their minds from their work....... Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do to ease the minds of the people who were about to be murdered?
A. I did everything I could. That is, I made them realize as late as possible what was going to happen to them, and then carried out the shooting as quickly as possible.
Q. Did you go and talk to them, and tell them...... People, you are going to be shot, but this is for the Fuehrer....... Did you say anything to them? What did you do?
A. No.
Q. In other words, you were very busy trying to cheer up the murderers, but you did nothing to help the victims? And that is the extent of your humanness?
A. I believe that I could not have done more for the victims.
Q. You mean you could not have done more than nothing except to shoot them?
A. I did it in as humane a manner as possible.
Q. You say you were so sick afterwards that you had to go home and vomit at the thought of the executions which were carried out under your command......is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Isn't it also true that later, in Kadari, you had a concentration camp under your command?
A. Yes. As far as administration work.
Q. Isn't it also true that you received an order when you were Security Police commander in June 1942, you received an order from Himmler to execute whole clans, or relatives, of anybody assisting the Partisans?
A. No. I did not got any such orders.
Q. Let me refresh your memory. We will just be a few moments, your Honor. I will show you the order from Himmler, saying that you are in charge of a group, and that if anyone assists partisans the whole.....all the relatives are to be killed. That order, which you have before you now, states, in paragraph 8, that SS Standartenfuehrer Blume will be in charge of certain security police actions, and on the next page the inclosure says that the men of a guilty family, in many cases the whole clan, are to be executed on principle. The women are to be arrested and taken to a concentration camp. But the children are to be removed from their homes, etcetera.
Do you remember that order now?
A. Yes. But may I explain and emphasize that you talk about Kadari, and not of Feldes. I therefore thought of Greece, and not of Feldes.
Q. I am talking of two different places. I am sorry you were confused. But in spite of the fact that you had to vomit at the sight of murders which you ordered, you still received from Himmler additional orders to carry out executions of defenseless people, and were the commander of a concentration camp, is that true?
A. This activity in Feldes I am very proud of. The reason is that here, for once, I succeeded in stopping the carrying out of this order and modifying it.
Q. We are not charging you with any crimes in Feldes. And I am just asking you......is it true that you received such an order......and what is your answer? Is it true that you received such an order, did you or didn't you? An order from Himmler...... and it has your name on it.
A. Yes; I do not remember the order in detail, but I know the measures which had been ordered in Feldes, and if it suits you I would like to describe briefly how I reacted to this.
Q. I have only one more question. Is it correct to say that under your command, units killed 50 to 60 innocent people in Minsk - 50 to 60 in Wellesch - plus 27 on the streets of Witebsk plus 80 in Witebsk - under your supervision, giving a total of about 200 people killed by units under your command while you were in command?
A. Yes, I agree to this.
MR. FERENCZ: No further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 5 November 1947.)
Otto Ohlendorf, et al., defendants, sitting at Nurnberg
THE MARHSAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2.
Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
DR. MAYER (Attorney for the defendant Steimle): Your Honor, after the witness Blume, who is now on the witness stand, it will be the turn of the defendant Sandberger, who is ill at the moment. Next would be the defendant Seibert and I am the defense counsel for Steimle. I have a request to make of the High Tribunal, that I may take the case of Steimle next, because Steimle took over Sonderkommando 7a from Blume and therefore this case would follow the present line.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have a report from the prison that Sandberger is ill and unable to appear in court?
And what is the report on Seibert?
DR. MAYER: The defendant Seibert belongs to another Einsatzgruppe, while the defendant Steimle belongs to the same Einsatz group as the defendant Blume.
MR. FERENCZ: If your Honors please, the prosecution has no objection to the suggestion of the defense counsel.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Mayer, the Tribunal will then hear the defendant Steimle when the defendant Blume will have left the stand.
DR. MAYER: Thank you very much, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are very welcome.
DR. SCHWARZ (Attorney for the defendant Jost): Your Honor, I ask that the defendant Jost be excused today from the session. He just told me that he is not feeling well.
THE PRESIDENT: In view of the report made by counsel, the defendant Jost will be excused from attendance in court today on account of illness. The Marshal will see that he is taken from the court room.
DR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You are welcome.
(The defendant Jost was excused from court.)
DR. DURCHHOLZ (Attorney for the defendant Schulz): Your Honor, I take the liberty to ask that after having examined the defendant Blume, I should like to hear a witness. It is the witness, Dr. Lane. He arrived here a few days ago and has to go away on official business. The examination will be very short.
THE PRESIDENT: Your request is granted.
DR. DURCHHOLZ: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Lummert.
DR. LUMMERT: Attorney for the Defendant Blume. I ask to be allowed to address a few questions to the witness in redirect examination.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. LUMMERT: had partisans shot, or saboteurs, after having examined these persons closely and finding them guilty. Mr. Ferencz asked you in this connection whether you knew the International Laws and the laws of warfare. You yourself pointed out the Hague Convention. In your reply you then said that you acted following a Fuehrer Order. At that point it was not quite clear which Fuehrer Decree was meant. Could you give an explanation about that, please? which, in view of the partisan fighting which was expected in Russia, and saboteur actions, and political activists, permitted and ordered that every officer of the German Army be allowed to shoot saboteurs and partisans on their own authority and sentence them to death. I thought of that decree.
THE PRESIDENT: This may have been an inversion of order on the part of the interpreter, or it may be this is the way the witness stated it, but the way we got it was that every officer was permitted to shoot partisans and then authorize their execution.
DR. LUMMERT: Your Honor, may I add that the translation into English out of German has such great difficulties, because the verb in the German is only at the end and we have to guess it, while in the English, it is at the beginning of the sentence. In this case I noticed exactly that the translator imagined the word to be shot beforehand and then the witness used another word, and that is why the word "sentence" came after "shot."
THE PRESIDENT: The correction and the explanation will appear on the record. BY DR. LUMMERT: at the time told that saboteurs and partisans could be sentenced to death and how were they told about this?
A Such announcements were made by posters in cities. Leaflets were dropped by plane over the flat land. this Special Fuehrer Decree?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Witness, were leaflets dropped to inform the Jews that they were going to be executed? THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. They only mentioned saboteurs and partisans in these leaflets.
DR. LUMMERT: Now, your Honor, I have one more question about the point Mr. Ferencz raised at the very end of the session yesterday. Mr. Ferencz gave the witnessra document and last night when I talked to the witness he told me that he did not have sufficient time to look at the document very closely; that he was not even able to determine whether his own name appeared in the document or not. I have no doubt about it, because Mr. Ferencz said so yesterday however it is not certain exactly where the name of the witness appears whether it was in the middle of the text or in the address.
I could not find that myself yesterday either and before I am able to put further questions in the redirect examination I therefore wanted to ask Mr. Ferencz to let me have this document for a short moment to look into it, if he would be so kind.
MR. FERENCZ: Your Honor, I have just sent for the document. I do not have it with me. It was just shown to the witness for the purpose of refreshing his memory on a very collateral point and I don't think we should go into a lengthy examination of it, inasmuch as I do not intend to introduce it as an exhibit. I can assure the Tribunal that on page 1 Nauman is mentioned as Commanding Officer of a certain Group and the second part which I showed him was an Enclosure describing what actions should be taken against partisans. I showed the defendant the enclosure and asked him a question concerning that and that was all.
DR. LUMMERT: Mr. Ferencz just mentioned the name "Nauman". I presume that it is a mistake. He meant Blume.
I do not want to take the Tribunal's time unnecessarily. Perhaps it is not necessary of all that I address further questions to the witness, particularly since the document was not submitted as an exhibit, and therefore has not become part of the record, Perhaps it may be a good way out if I put the question aside for the moment and request from the Tribunal, after having seeing the document, to come back to this point.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is always disposed to assist counsel in the presentation of its case and will leave it to Dr. Lummert to decide whether he wishes to examine on this or not. If the document will be here in a matter of a minute or two, we would prefer that the examination on that subject be finished now. If it is a matter of ten minutes or more, then we could come back to it later.
DR. LUMMERT: Yes, your Honor, At the moment, I have no further questions of the witness and ask that the document be handed over.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. LUMMERT: Apart from that, may I mention the following? I had the intention of having a witness Radl called to the witness stand yesterday.
The Tribunal had granted me this witness. He arrived here in Nurnberg last Friday and our information center informed me that the witness must absolutely leave Nurnber today already and that this term could not be prolonged. At any rate, since there was no possibility yesterday to call the witness I took an affidavit from him last evening and the witness left this morning and I ask for permission that I may introduce this affidavit later on in Document Book II. Document Book II is not completed yet. It has not yet been translated. I shall also submit a few other affidavits by witness and will add them to Document Book II and will submit them later. These affidavits I have not got as yet. the witness stand. The name is Krugmayer. This witness has not arrived in Nurnberg as yet, and I therefore ask for permission that I may bring him here later on the witness stand, after he has arrived here.
C ourt II, Case 9
THE PRESIDENT: I might say, Dr. Lummert, and to all defense counsel that if any of you find yourselves in the situation that Dr. Lummert found himself in yesterday with a witness whose stay was limited to a day that you should inform the Tribunal here in open court or even in chambers of your difficulties and we assure you that we will make every effort to see to it that the witness will be heard or proper documentation made of that fact that he is here in Nurnberg ready to testify; in some way or other we ought to be able to accommodate your requests along that line.
DR. LUMMERT: Thank you very much, Your honor. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Witness, in your affidavit there appears a paragraph which I don't quite thoroughly comprehend: No. 5, which says, "I received all orders regarding executions, directions and duties of Sonderkommando 7a which was subordinate to me in Dueben or in the Prinz Albrecht Palais in Berlin. During the campaign I never received any further orders". Did you not receive orders elsewhere? orders about the extermination of the Jews, but not the instructions given by Nebe later on.
Q I see. In referring to the executions themselves, you also say in this affidavit there was no physician present, but that the leader of the execution party was responsible for the completion of the job and had to make certain that the victims were actually dead. Did this mean, since the victims fell automatically in the pro-dug grave that the officer would have to get down into the ditch to make the examination after the firing had ceased? and only after the shooting the men of the Kommando put them into the grave.
different from that used by the defendant Blobel?
A Your Honor, at the moment I cannot remember Blobel's description. ditch and that as they were shot from the rear they fell into the ditch. They fell into the grave already prepared beforehand. That was the way he described an execution. to that, as they were shot from the front, as during any military shooting and the men were so far away from the grave that they did not fall into it immediately.
Q Yes. Were the executees blindfolded?
Q I see. Yesterday you indicated that the Jews were very active in Bolshevistic Russia politically; that they supported the Communist regime; that they were very active supporters then and now. Do we take from that that you believed that the Jews were a very formidable threat to the security of Germany because of their political allegiances?
A Yes, Your Honor. I believe and the investigations carried out in Peacetime gave me that impression that the Jews in the East, in Russia played a special part concerning Communist interests.
Q Were you in Russia prior to 1941?
A No, Your Honor. I already said that we had to examine and interrogate all those who had been active in Russia and who then returned to Germany. conditions in Eastern Russia. Did I understand you correctly? to get political information about the Russian territory. you, is that what I understand?
A No, Your Honor, it was like this. At the time the Russians had hired many German experts and engineers in order to build up their economic sphere. These men returned after some time when the Russians believed that they could continue their own economy on their own accord. The National Socialist State realized this opportuState Police agencies were asked to interrogate these people who returned. the Jews were a threat and a menace to the security of Germany? regime. this threat to the security of the German Reich that they should be exterminated? necessity of the security measures were more limited and I would not have drawn this consequence if I had been able to give instructions myself. menace and therefore had to be eliminated? instead of extermination I suggested that the Jews be gathered in ghettos and be resettled after the war. That was what I, as a small private person, would have ordered, if I had been able to give orders.
Q Well, then, you did not agree entirely with the Fuehrer Order?
Q At the time, did you have this reservation, or has that come since? sequence of this order, as I have already described raised all these feelings within me immediately.
order and reject part. You rejected that part which called upon you to exterminate indiscriminately men, women, and children Jews? Hitler being as wrong? Hitler as a murderer? first collision of my feelings with one of his orders, my reaction was not so strong that I would have allowed myself to think in that manner.
Q. Well, the reason you refused to accept that part of the order is because you regarded as wrong to strike down women and children entirely innocent of crime, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would regard that kind of a killing as murder?
A. I beg your pardon. Would you please repeat that?
Q. You would regard the killing of innocent women and children as murder?
A. Well, now, I imagine it like that, of course; at the time, the Fuehrer was too great for me that I should have had such thoughts.
Q. Now, please answer my question. I will make the question more specific. You heard this order and the call for the extermination of all Jews. You said to yourself......"I will execute part of this order which calls for the liquidation of able-bodied Jews, but I will not execute that part which calls for the slaughter of innocent women and children because that is murder." Is that right?
A. This last conclusion I did not draw at the time, and could not have drawn.
Q. Then you did not regard the killing of innocent women and children as murder?
A. At the time, I certainly did not imagine it.
Q. You therefore at the time thought to kill women and children who had committed no crime as a perfectly proper procedure, and did not include murder?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. Well, why, then, didn't you follow out the order to kill women and children?
A. My consideration fought with the weight of the order, and my misgivings were so strong that I looked for a way out.
Q. Now, just a moment......did you regard the killing of women and children as proper?
COURTII, CASE IX
A. No, your Honor.
Q. What was improper about it?
A. That the reason given did not convince me to that effect, or extent, that I would have found strength to carry out such an order.
Q. You regarded the killing of women and children as improper .......I come back to that........do you agree with that?
A. Yes.
Q. The Fuehrer had said that it was proper to kill them?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you disagreed with the Fuehrer?
A. No, I fought against this conception, innerly.
Q. Now, please answer the question. You got this order. You agreed with it, so far as killing the men was concerned, you disagreed so far as killing women and children was concerned. The killing of women and children was improper, according to you. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what law did the killing of women and children violate that caused you to conclude that it was improper?
A. My feeling arose against this.
Q. Well, now, your feelings must be based upon some principle. One doesn't feel vacantly. That law was being violated which Caused you not to execute that part of the order which was very specific?
A. My general humane feelings, which I had. But I could not make them concrete.....could not form a judgment.
Q. Was it the moral law?
A. That is what I wanted to say, your Honor.
Q. Then you believed that it was legal, but not moral?
A. I was just trying to say, your Honor - moral, already, is a judgment somebody makes about feelings or actions which he has or does, and at the time I did not come to a judgment because the man who had given the order was on such a high level for me that I did not take the liberty to pass a judgment about his order owing to feelings and actions which I, as a small commando leader, had.
I think that is the best way of expressing what I felt.
Q. Suppose a woman had been brought before you because of being a saboteur and a spy, and it was proven to you conclusively with plenty of evidence that she had been a spy against the German forces and had committed acts of sabotage. Would you have sentenced her to death?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes, because she would have committed a crime?
A. Yes, she would have committed a crime.
Q. Yes. Right. Now, let us suppose a woman had been brought before you who had committed no crime, and had you had this order of the Fuehrer saying that she should be shot because she was a Jewess....... Would you have shot her?
A. I would have to imagine myself back into that time.
Q. Well, imagine yourself back because your attorney told you yesterday to imagine yourself back in 1941, and to forget everything that happened since then.....so imagine yourself back. Here is a woman brought before you, and at the same time there is presented to you the Fuehrer order that this woman must be shot because she is a Jewess, but she has committed no crime......she is absolutely innocent. What would you do? Would you shoot her?
A. If I had had the order immediately before me, I probably could not have avoided following this order, but I didn't......
Q. Now just a moment. Then you would have shot her if you had this order?
A. I would have had to, yes.
Q. You would have shot her? Well, now, didn't you have this order all the time?
A. It was not in front of me in this immediate consequence. I would have had a way to escape, to get around it.
Q. But you had this order in your mind.......you never actually had it written out on paper, did you?
A. Yes, but my inner contradictions were so strong that the situation in which I was at that time won, so that I could not carry out this order.
Q. You have just said that if a woman had been brought before you, entirely innocent of crime, and you were informed at that moment of the Hitler order that all Jewesses must be killed, that you would have had her shot. Do you go back on that answer?
A. No, your Honor.
Q. Very well. All right. Then the Tribunal accepts your answer. So therefore that completely eliminates all that you said yesterday about not agreeing with Hitler on the execution of women, at least.
A. It was translated "included"......."Eingeschlossen", which I do not understand.
Q. Now let's give another illustration. Suppose a child had been brought before you - let us say a boy ten years of age and absolutely innocent of any crime, wrong-doing or mischief and they present you with a Fuehrer order which says that this boy must be executed because he is a Jew, he is the son of Jewish parents, he is a full-blooded Jew. Would you execute that order? Would you shoot this ten-year-old boy? Let us say there were 100 ten-year-old boys and you had this order. Would you execute them, these children?
A. In that case I would have committed suicide. I don't think my conscience would have stood this, because if I imagine how a small incident like this ill-treatment had brought me to such a state, which caused me to commit suicide, I don't think I could have possible carried out such a thing.
Q. Then you make a distinction between a woman who is absolutely innocent of crime and a child. You are a little more tender-hearted about children, is that right?
A. Yes, your Honor, I have 5 children myself. But I believe that a constant increase of impressions in examples which you gave, also in figures, had to come about, and that there is a limit somewhere, where a person in whom feeling is prevailing at it is the case with me, and who consequently stands up to it, Will get into a state where the connection between reason who commands and feeling who contradicts will bear and that he either goes mad or commits suicide.
Q. So you make a distinction with regard to numbers. If it is only one person it does not strike you as being too hard to accomplish; if there are a number, then the cumulative fact of the horror would cause you to hesitate in executing the order?
A. I would like to say it like this: The order which in itself is holy to me, in itself.
Q. The order was holy.......the Fuehrer order was holy to you.........is that what I understand you to say?
A. Which is sacred in itself, yes, for every German - had so much power that it needed a lot of upheaval either to vary it or not to obey it at all. And this strength of shock depends mostly on the impression which one has in such a situation; and, therefore, I mean that the number plays a part because there is a difference, of course, whether I shoot one person, or whether I have to do this repeatedly, and shoot many people. At one time there will be a moment when one's mind breaks. Even if one is ever prepared to obey.
Q. Since you were so prepared to obey, and you believed this Fuehrer order to be holy and sacred, then if only one child were brought before you, and you were presented with this order.... then you would have executed that one child?
A. I don't think, your Honor, that I would have been able to do it.