Q You said you discussed it with Foltes after that. When was that?
Q When was that?
Q you would say it was about the 10th September? is that correct? that it was a general execution order for Jews, at any rate I was able to see from Foltes' statement what Nebe had actually meant. had passed on to you an order to execute all the Jews? execute the Jews?
Q And you didn't go into great detail there either. You expressed your regret at having such an order. Naumann expressed his regret at having such an order, but there was nothing that anyone could do. Naumann said, "It is a Fuehrer Order, and that is all there is to it." is that correct? a matter of an order. Jews, that such an order existed and that it had been decreed.
Q Didn't you tell Naumann at that time that you had managed to 6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_2_Hoxsie (Lea) evade the order?
You noted his regret at having to carry it out.
A I didn't get the question; I didn't get the first part of the question. nights over it. Didn't you tell him that you had managed to evade the carrying out of this order?
A No, I didn't tell him that. by having to carry out this order? that you had in fact carried out the order?
Q And he didn't ask you any questions whether you had or whether you had not carried out the order?
Q And he didn't ask you any questions whether you had or whether you had not carried out the order?
A I don't think that he asked me that. at any time when you discussed this order with your superior officers, did you express any dissatisfaction with the order? soldier without questioning it in any way, without indicating any disapproval?
A I expressed my misgivings to Naumann. Otherwise I did nothing.
6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_3_Hoxsie (Lea)
Q What did you say to Naumann?
Q You say you expressed your misgivings. What do you mean by that?
Q Did you say to him "I can't carry out this order; it is too difficult or it is too inhumane?" Naumann, but I don't know the details any more. I merely know the one thing, that the conversation dealt with these misgivings. Otherwise Naumann would not have said that he had spent sleepless nights about it, and I remember definitely that he said that. order? Jewish problem, I asked Naumann for a furlough.
Q I didn't quite understand your answer. You say that not in connection with the Jewish problem, you asked for a furlough. Do you mean to say that you did not try to get out of carrying out this order, at least insofar as the Jews were concerned? because I wanted to evade the order.
Q Do you remember why you wanted a furlough?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment please. We understand the witness to say that he talked with Naumann about a furlough but this had nothing to do with the order. Did you say that just one minute ago?
THE WITNESS: I said that in connection with this discussion I asked for a furlough.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you added, "but had nothing to do with the order." Did you say that a minute ago?
THE WITNESS: No, I didn't add that, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Miss Reporter, can you locate in your shorthand notes the answer of the defendant to a question by Mr. Ferencz about the 6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_4_Hoxsie Lea) furlough?
All right, let's have it in German then. German or English.
German Reporter: I asked him in this connection or during that conversation to give me a furlough because I wanted to evade the order.
THE PRESIDENT: But he just said, a minute before, do you have that? Well, just look for it. witness which you read to us?
The record was read by the reporter as follows: "A. During this conversation, but not in connection with the Jewish problem, I asked for a furlough from Naumann.") BY THE PRESIDENT: you asked for a furlough but it had nothing to do with the Jewish question. In the last question put to you by Mr. Ferencz you have given us a modification of that. Now, do you stand on what you said originally, did you tell us the truth when you said that in asking the furlough it had nothing to do with the Jewish order?
Jewish question that I did not say, as a result of a conversation about the Jewish question, I didn't say at that moment, "I want to go on furlough." but this had nothing to do with the Jewish order. Now, that is the answer you gave us and it is on the record. Do you now want to change that, and do you tell us that you did not mean what you very specifically stated in so many words.
Q Please answer the question directly. Do you want to change that very specific answer?
Q Did you say that; is the record correct?
6 November 1947_A_MSD_16_5_Hoxsie (Lea) that you mean something else, is that what we are to comprehend? clear words, is that correct?
A These clear words don't express what I wanted to say.
Q Very well. Then you used language which did not express your thought?
Q Very well. Now give us language which expresses your thought. me once more that for any length of time it was not possible to avoid the execution of the Jewish order. My request for a furlough was conditioned by that. That is what I wanted to say. And these two things, the discussion about the Jewish question and my request for furlough, took place during the same conference. furlough it did have to do with the Jewish order?
Q. Therefore, it is just the direct contradiction to what you said just a few minute ago?
A. I wanted to say before that when I asked Naumann for a furlough, I did not give the Jewish question as a reason for the furlough.
Q. We, therefore, understand that you modify and alter your original answer, that when you said that you asked for a furlough but it had nothing to do with the Jewish order, what you really meant to tell the Tribunal was that when you asked for the furlough you did not tell Naumann that you wanted it to evade the Jewish order, but that is the reason you had in your mind. Is that what we are to comprehend?
A. Yes, your Honor. That is right.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, proceed. BY MR. FERECZ:
Q. In other words, you were deliberately trying to evade your duties as a soldier?
A. I wanted to avoid it. This special duty I wanted to avoid.
Q. Now, you have noticed the documents which were introduced against you. Particularly you have noticed one of 13 September showing that 1011 people were killed by Sonderkommando 7a. You have noticed one of 14 November showing that 1517 persons were killed by Sonderkommando 7a. Now, you were in command of that unit during that period, weren't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And the reports show that more than 500 people were liquidated by you kommando during at least part of the time of your command, is that correct?
A. The reports show this, but they also show that this concerns executions because of partisan activity, and that these fights were not only carried out by my kommando but in 80 percent of the cases in cooperation with Army units. When two divisions are named, then the twenty-five men who participated cannot be the decisive factor, but they were merely auxiliary means. The figure appears in my kommando's report Court,II Case 9 but it also probably appears in every report of every Army unit that participated, and that is the same way with all the other reports when it is mentioned which Army units participated in any particular mission.
Q. You say then, that although these reports show that 500 people were killed by your kommando during the time of your command, you had assistance in this job from the Wehrmacht, is that correct?
A. My kommando was used to support the Army, not that I called in the Army to support me.
Q. Do you say that all 500 of these people who were killed were partisans?
A. At any rate, as far as I know it myself, and as far as I can see in the document, yes.
Q. What happened to the Jews in your area?
A. Nothing than what, for example, happened in Rshev where a Jewish Council was installed, as I can see from the document.
Q. What do you remember personally as having happened to the Jews in the area under your command?
A. I know that even before my arrival my kommando had installed a Jewish council in Welisch and I can see from the documents that a ghetto was installed there too. I know that in Rshev a Jewish council was installed and probably the Jews were obliged to wear the Jewish insignia. The same probably was the case in Kalinin.
Q. What did you do as the commanding officer as concerns the Jewish question?
A. I didn't do anything in this respect.
Q. You didn't even have the Jews arrested, is that correct?
A. I had no Jews arrested.
Q. Did you know that there were Jews in your area?
A. In Welisch where the Jews were already in the ghetto I knew it, and Rshev and Kalinin I undoubtedly that there were a few Jews in these towns.
Q. And you knew that Hitler had ordered the Jews to be exterminated yet you did nothing to the Jews who were under control, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you violated an order from Hitler, did you not?
A. I didn't carry the order out immediately after it became known to me.
Q. Did you carry it out later?
A. No, later I wasn't there any more.
Q. Then you violated an order of Hitler inasmuch as he had ordered the Jews to be executed and you had Jews in you area and you did not execute them, isn't that correct?
A. The order did not say at what time the Jews would have to be executed.
Q. Are you trying to say now that the Hitler order, as you understood it, meant that the Jews were to be given special care of some kind and saved for the future to be executed?
A. No, the order did not have that content, but in its execution it could be modified for a certain time if one, for example, was busy, as my kommando was, with fighting partisans.
Q. Didn't you know that the order said specifically that all Jews were to be killed?
A. Yes, I heard that this order referred to all Jews?
Q. And as a soldier when you get an order to kill all Jews, do you interpret that as meaning to save them for the future, for somebody else?
A. One can have two or three orders at the same time -
Q. I ask you what you did, how do you interpret that as a soldier?
A. I relegated the order because I had a more important order for my area, namely, the security against partisans.
Q. What do you mean, you relegated the order?
A. I didn't carry it out at that time.
Q. Then weren't you violating an order from your superior officer?
A. I simply tried to and did pigeon-hole the order, and if you consider this a violation of the order one can consider it that way.
Q. Nebe told you Vyasma on the 10th of October that you had better start shooting women and children too, did he not?
A. He told me that in Smolensk.
Q. Then he told you in Smolensk that you had to shoot women and children too. Now, did you obey that order to shoot Jewish women and children as well?
A. He didn't tell me that I had to show him execution reports about that two of five days later.
Q. I am asking you, did you obey that order from Nebe who was your superior officer, to execute Jewish women and children?
A. No, I did not obey this order.
Q. Then twice you have violated orders from your superiors. Were you ever court martialed for violating your orders?
A. No, but I always had proof that the security measures were urgent in my area because of conditions there.
Q. So that you were, as a Sonderkommando leader, able to avoid carrying out the Fuehrer Order without any action being taken against you in my form, is that correct?
A. I could make the attempt temporarily to evade this order because of the conditions, and the special conditions were that in the first four weeks my kommando was kept busy by the acute attacks of the partisans, that in the third period when I was in Kalinin one always had the excuse that under the bombardment of Russian artillery one could not undertake large-scale Jewish operations. These were the possibilities which remained open to me.
Q. Then you succeeded in violating the orders of your superior officers without any evil consequences to yourself, is that correct?
A. Every Einsatzgruppe leader who knew the activity of my commando would certainly have recognized that the missions accomplished could be justified.
Q. Will you please answer the question--the questions was you succeeded in violating the orders of your superior officer without any evil consequences to yourself, now, is that correct?
A. I evaded it without any consequences, yes.
Q. Now, do you know that all the other commando leaders and Einsatzgruppe leaders had partisans in their zones, too?
A. But not to the extent as it was true in my commando area. Also in the other areas the commando leaders were in cities where there were a lot of Jews. This was not true in my area.
Q. You have told us that there were Jews in your area, that there was a ghetto full of Jews?
A. I said that in Rshew and Kalinin there were only a few Jews.
Q. Didn't you tell us that there was a ghetto?
A. I said that I read in the documents here that in Welisch there was a ghetto. I do not know how many Jews were in that ghetto because the ghetto had already been installed previously.
Q. And the first time you knew there were Jews in your area was when you read it in the documents given to you here in Nuernberg?
A. No, but I did not know that there was a ghetto in Welisch, but I knew that there were Jews.
Q. How many Jews would you estimate were in Welisch?
A. I cannot say that because I did not see the ghetto.
Q. Now, you have told us that you were the expert on SD reports and you spent all your time making these careful reports to send back to Berlin. Weren't you interested in the Jewish question, or were you just interested in the farmers?
A. I did not report on the Jewish question.
Q. Now, how is it that you as an SS Colonel experienced and used to making security reports and in possession of an order to murder all the Jews, spends his time making reports and takes no interest in the Jewish question?
A. The SD reporting the way I carried it on in the Reich, was not concerned with the security question but with the problems of domestic life, with domestic problems.
Q. Was the SD the security service?
A. SD means security service.
Q. And does that mean worrying about domestic problems or is that concerned with studies of those persons who threatened the security of Germany?
A. May I have reference to the many statements made here already that the SD work actually did concern itself with domestic problems, not about reporting of enemies.
Q. So that you say that you were not at all concerned with the Jewish problem, and you did not know how many Jewish persons were in your area, and you did not do anything with them although you had an order to murder them?
A. I said that ghettos were installed by my Commando during my time and that the towns established Jewish counsels.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, I would like an amplification of this answer about the functions of the SD. The witness has stated that it was not concerned with security, but only with domestic problems. This answer followed a statement that SD was security police. It is difficult for me to reconcile those two answers. Would you please endeavor to have that illucidated? BY DR. FERENCZ:
Q. Witness, you have heard the question from the Tribunal. Would you please explain why it is that the security service was not concerned with security questions?
A. It has already been attempted here to keep those two concepts apart, the one concept is in the security service, and the other in the security police. The security service as a branch was occu pied, under the leadership of Ohlendorf, with reporting about domestic problems, about the economy, about culture, religion, etc.
The security police dealt with police security against the enemy, but both are combined in a single formation in an SS manner which finds its expression in the SD ensignia which these people wear on their sleeves, the man who deals with domestic problems as well as the man who does police work; in one case it is an SS unit where both branches are united under the same uniform, and in the SD it is a matter of an information function, an organization reporting on domestic trends. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you function in both capacities, both in security police and security service?
A. I always belonged to the security service, the SD.
Q. You never had anything to do with the security police?
A. I had nothing to do with the security police outside of the fact when I was commando leader in Russian, before that I did not have anything to do with it, later not either.
Q. well, you say outside of when you were in Russia, that is what we are talking about. That's like saying, you never had anything to do with the war except between 1939 and 1945. You were in the Security Police when you were in Russia?
A. Yes. All branches were together. That was a new combination which we did not know in the Reich; the SD and security police were now combined in one unit in the assignment, but both functions within this unit remained intact and had to be carried on. Therefore, the Einsatzkommandos had a police mission as well as an SD mission.
Q. Yes, so while you were engrossed in writing up these reports on collective farming and crops and other domestic things, you occasionally gave an ear and an eye to security for the German forces, didn't you?
A. Yes. That is when I already said in my direct examination when I used my commando to fight partisans the way the army ordered it.
That is when my commando worried about security measures.
Q. You told us yesterday , and it was very interesting, that you were studying the collective farming plan. Did you intend to import that into Germany, that plan?
A. No, I did not have that intention, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You may continue, Mr. Ferencz. BY DR. FERENCZ:
Q. Was there anybody in your commando who was concerned with the Jewish question?
A. During the time I was there the Jewish question was not treated in the sense in which you mean it.
Q. Was it so treated before you arrived.
A. Dr. Blume already described this, that on the order of Nebe he had some Jews executed in one case.
Q. Then your unit was actively engaged in carryingout the Fuehrer order before you arrived. Did you rescind that order?
A. No I did not revoke the order, I already said that.
Q. And your men just stopped being concerned all by themselves?
A. The men carried out the order which was given to them continously by fighting partisans.
Q. I am talking now about the Jewish question. You told us that they were carrying out the extermination of Jews before you arrived and that you did not rescind the order, then why did they stop?
A. Under Dr. Blume they did not carry the order out either, if he had not expressly received the order from Nebe in the cases cited.
Q. But they did carry it out, you told us they did, and Blume told us they did.
A. He said that in the one case he had ordered it-one or two cases he had ordered it
Q. I am asking you why did you men who were engaged in exterminating the Jews before you arrived stop carrying out an order given to them by Nebe, by Hitler, or anybody else?
A. For a lengthy time, by order of the army, their job was to fight the partisans in this area. This was the first question which occupied them continually. The documents show this.
Q. What orders did you give to this commando which was under your command?
A. I did not give any orders in detail but the orders were given for the partisan warfare from the reports, from the conference with the army via the liaison officer and the missions which were then carried out against the partisans.
Q. You said the army gave those orders. I am asking you what orders you gave as the commanding officer who was there supposedly to be giving orders?
A. The commando was divided into detachments, and I can't remember this case, but if the army tells me on such and such a day an extensive action is to be carried out in the area of Demidov and that the special Commando 7A is to furnish so and so many men for interrogation purposes, then I passed this order on to my subordinate officers or I went to the G-2.
Q. Pardon me, Steimle, I am asking you specifically, not what you would have done, but what orders you actually did give.
A. I, for instance, gave the order that the commando in such and such a strength was to advance to Wyazma with such and such a tank unit.
Q. Did you know the purpose of this advance?
A. Yes. I gave the order and I told the army the reasons, to join the troops there and to safeguard the documentary material there, and to await the arrival of the rest of the commando there.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Ferencz, would you mind breaking at this moment for the afternoon recess. The Tribunal might indicate at this time because it never occurred to us to say it before, and this is without any reflection of any kind on the defense counsel or prosecution counsel, that when any witness isunder cross-examination and a recess intervenes that that witness may not talk with counsel.
Of course, that same rule applies to prosecution witnesses.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ULMER (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT DR. SIX): Your Honor, I am about to submit my document books and I would like to have them finished over the weekend. I would like to be able to talk to my client for one afternoon. Therefore, I would like to ask the Tribunal to excuse him from court tomorrow afternoon.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Six will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow afternoon that he may confer with his attorney.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT BRAUNE): Your Honor, I should like the Defendant Braune to be excused tomorrow afternoon in order to be able to prepare his examination on the witness stand.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow afternoon in order to prepare himself for testifying in court.
DR. MAYER: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz): Steimle, you have been telling us about all the things you didn't do. You have seen the documents showing that 500 people were killed by your Kommando during only a part of the time that you were in command. Would you please explain in chronological order the executions which you know took place by the units under your command, giving us how many people were killed, when they were killed, where they were killed, and why they were killed.
A. I can only mention, with the aid of the documents, those events which I remember. They are shootings, the figures of which I do not remember, which took place in Welisch. They were shootings of partisans. These executions were connected with orders of the staff of the 9th Army, or the G-2, Counter-Intelligence Officer, or by order of the competent local commander.
Q. When was that?
A. During the months ofSeptember and October.
Q. How many people were killed?
A. I do not remember details. I can only according to the documents repeat the figures contained in the documents, I mean, as far as the territory of Welisch is concerned. It must have been about 200 to 250 people.
Q. Continue please. What is the next execution that you remember?
A. It is not an individual execution, but there are a number of assignments, and sentences; in connection with these assignments other executions were carried out. In the territory around Velikki Luki, I do not know how many executions were carried out. Furthermore, I know about executions which I ordered myself, partly, in Kalinin, during the time that I was present there.
Q. Now, one at a time; back in Velikki Luki, what type of people were killed? Were they also partisans?
A. Without the slightest doubt they were Communist functionaries, active either as partisans or working as Communists illegally. Furthermore, the event mentioned in the reports, this event of juveniles -
Q. And when was that?
A. That, according to the Report, must have been in September.
THE PRESIDENT: What is meant by a Communist working or someone working as a Communist illegally?
THE WITNESS: By this I mean a man carrying out Communist Party works by collecting circles in order to raise a resistence movement against the occupying power. This offense was prohibited through a decree by the occupying power. The Communist Party was dissolved and its illegal continuance was punishable, but I have already said that the Communist functionaries were under duty to resist with all means at their disposal and this resistance was expressed in partisan fighting and sabotage.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, it was considered that a man belonging to the Communist Party should be regarded as an enemy and as a partisan?
THE WITNESS: No. No, Your Honor. Only when he continued his activities in the sense of the order by resisting behind the lines. In that case it was an offense against this decree.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it wasn't because he was a Communist that he was executed; it was because he was resisting?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Ferencz) And approximately how many people would you say were killed in September in Velikki Luki?
A. That I cannot say. I have no idea.
Q. Was it more than 100? Was it less than 100?
A. I don't know. I think it must have been less than 100.
Q. Well, you say now that you know that in September you shot people in Velikki Luki and you have no idea of how many people it was. You just remember shooting people.
A. I was only in Velikki Luki once or at the most twice.
Q. And when was the action in Kalinin which you personally ordered?
A. I did not carry out any operations there in Kalinin. I was in Kalinin from the 7th of November until the 7th of December with interruptions and during this time, if I was present, I received the reports, that is, the minutes of interrogations and I confirmed or changed the sentences which were suggested in these reports. There might have been five or there might have been 15 or even 20 shootings.
Q. What type of people were they who were shot in Kalinin?
A. I remember one case in which an active spy, a female spy, was shot where Wehrmacht troops were active in the town and these small Russian groups, who had the order to carry out terror actions against part of the Wehrmacht and so on, threw grenades at the local kommandatura.
Q. Now are these three actions or those three locations the onlyplaces where units under your command executed people?
A. Those three places? In Rzhev there was also a kommando.
Q. Did the kommando in Rzhev carry out any executions?
A. I don't remember, but I assume that also there were executions carried out.
Q. In other words, you assume that one kommando carried out executions in Rzhev too. Do you have any idea when that was?
A. I must assume that it was so. It could only have been in November, or, perhaps, it could have been in December after I had left.
Q. I am only interested in while you were there. And how many people do you think were killed by your Kommando in Rzhev in November?
A. I don't remember the number, because I wasn't informed about details. Any large scale shootings were not carried out in Rzhev. That depended on the resistence which was carried out in this area.
Q. And in Rzhev too you just shot partisans, is that correct?
A. We shot those who resisted or who carried on resistance in any form whatsoever, any form of resistance against German Wehrmacht units.
Q. And is there any other location where units under your command either in Einsatzkommando 7a or 4a carried out executions?
A. I already pointed out this morning that in Kursk executions were carried out.
Q. And when was that?
A. That could have been in October or November 1942.
Q. And about how many people were killed there?
A. I don't know. Individual cases were dealt with which I don remember. How many there were, however, I do not know.
Q. What do you estimate? Was it more than 100? Was it less than 100?
A. My estimate could be wrong, because I have no idea concerning these executions in Kursk.
Q. Are executions such an ordinary thing with you that you remember where they took place and when they took place, but you do not know or can't even estimate how many people were killed?
A. I did not investigate these cases, the individual cases. I only assumed it in some individual cases which came to my command, but if I tell you that there were 20 cases, I might be wrong, just as wrong as if I said there might have been 30. In any case, not many executions were carried out in these kommandos. It only depended on what cases of resistance came up or what attempts had been made on Wehrmacht units; the number of shootings depended on this.
Q. And there again you just shot persons who resisted, is that correct?
A. Yes. Resistance in the form I mentioned.
Q. Now are there any other places that you can remember where units under your command carried out executions?
A. I mentioned this morning that when we marched towards Stalingrad we shot and destroyed a partisan advance group.
Q. Where was that?
A. That was in Kallatsch-Nichnichevskaya.
Q. And when was that?
A. That must have been in September, 1942, during the march towards Stalingrad.
Q. And about how many people were killed there?
A. There were killed in combat a small group of 6 to 8 people.
Q. And again they were persons who resisted?
A. Certainly.
Q. Are there any other places you remember where units under your command executed people?
A. No.
Q. In other words, executions were carried out by units under your command in Welisch, Velikki Luki, Kalinin, Rzhev, Kursk, towards Stalingrad, is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And in all you estimate about 300 people were killed in 400 people were killed?