A. It could have been a misunderstanding, Your Honor, yes.
Q. You say that you yourself did not utter these words which I have read to you?
A. I cannot remember really, Your Honor.
Q. Now, the reports which have been submitted here in the document books show very clearly that this kommando of which you were the leader, 7a, conducted many executions, As of 13 September the execution total is given as 1011. When you were asked about that you said that you only know of eight who had been executed, but you did not know whether they were killed by your predecessor or by yourself.
A. Of these eight people I spoke in this connection, and I said that between the report of the 20th of August, which says that 996 executions were carried out, and up to the report of September which mentions 1011, there is, in fact, an increase of about 15 executions. In connection with these 15 executions I said that of these, eight can be found in the document books as people who were shot in partisan warfare. I did not speak about the remainder of the people.
Q. I am asking you if you did not remember whether these eight were killed by yourself or your predecessor. Did you so testify?
A. I said approximately that. Whether they were shot in my absence or whether they were shot after the 20th of August or in my presence I do not know.
Q. Now, you include the possibility they may have been shot in your presence?
A. That they could have been shot during the time when I was already in charge of the kommando that would mean, the time from 7 of September up to the 13th. It is possible that in this time eight of these people were executed.
Q. The translation came through that they could have been shot in your presence. You don't remember, but they could have been, is that right?
A. Not in my presence, but in the time when I had taken over the kommando, that is the leadership of the kommando.
Q. Didn't you make a report of the executions which you conducted or ordered?
A. The reports, written reports concerning individual actions, were made out, and I have said that these reports were made out by my kommando leader, and deputy, Foltes, but that in general I know about these reports.
Q. Then why wouldn't you remember whether these eight were executed by yourself or by your predecessor?
A. Because I was not present when these actions were carried out, and it would have been an event which would have been carried out during the first days of my activity in this kommando, when I had first arrived here in Welisch, or possibly at the garrison of the other kommando in Uelikki Luki.
Q. Do you now tell us they were not executed, these eight while you were in charge?
A. I do not know what to say. I can only say, based on the notes in the documents, that at one particular combat eight partisans were shot, and I can only say that it must have been so.
Q. The document reports show that the execution total for 7a, as of 28 September was 1252; asof 26 October, 1344; asof 14 November, 1517. Do you admit the correctness of these reports?
A. I cannot say whether this number is correct or wrong, because I don't remember the individual figures. I am sure that the basis of these figures are reports of my own kommando.
Q. Then you admit that these figures could be correct?
A. They could be correct, yes.
Q. That your kommando executed, as of 13 September, 1011; as of 28 September, 1252; as of 26 October 1344; as of 14 November 1517.
You admit your kommando killed that many people?
A. I can only repeat that which I have already said and in clear from the documents and in my own memory, these shootings are, on the whole, shootings carried out in connection with the operations against partisans.
Q. Now, we are only speaking of the total number of people killed. Are these reports correct as to the total number of people killed, whether they were partisans or not?
A. I can likewise, as I have already said, only assume that it must be based on reports of my kommando, but the executions were carried out by the Army. I have already said in my direct examination that, for instance, the report concerning 183 shootings in connection with t the assignment of two divisions was not carried out, not only by my kommando, but also the participating Army units.
Q. You don't question these reports insofar as members are concerned, is that right?
A. And the carrying out of the executions, whether they were carried out by my own men or by the Wehrmacht, by the Army units taking part.
Q. Now, please answer the question. The reports in the document book show that Kommando 7a killed so many people, and I have given you the figures. Do you, or do you not question the figures? I am only speaking of the figures.
A. I cannot say with certainty that the figures are correct, but I can only say that they are based on reports by my kommando.
Q. Very well, You had approximately one hundred men in your kommando, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And they were divided up into various groups, various subkommandos?
A. In two subkommandos at that time.
Q. Only two?
A. During the period of these partisan operations, two subkommandos, Welisch and Velikki-Luki.
Q. You were nine months in the field in all, weren't you, four the first time and five the second time?
A. The first was approximately three and a half months, yes, and the second time must have been about nine months, yes.
Q. Nine months the second time?
A. No, altogether.
Q. Yes, nine months, all right. Now, in these nine months' time, do we understand you to say that not one Jew was killed by your kommando?
A. Yes, as far as I know no Jews were shot by my own kommando,
Q. In nine months' time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, during all this time the Fuehrer Order was well known of corse, wasn't it, that Jews were to be killed?
A. Yes,
Q. And your subkommandos who carried out independently of you had this order, didn't they?
A. It was known to them.
Q. Yes. And you never revoked the order as far as they were concerned, did you?
A. No, no.
Q. Why didn't they execute the order since they had it in all its completeness without modification and without any instruction from you to disregard it. Why didn't they execute the order?
A. The kommandos in Welisch and Velikki-Luki were, through security conditions prevailing there, so busied by partisan warfare that they could not cope with the order at the time. In RZHEV and Kalinin the frontal position was such--and anyway I was present in Kalinin--that the order for the shooting of Jews was conditioned by circumstances and was impossible.
In my second kommando, which was in the year "42, I was in the territory in which the Jewish population was practically not known to exist in any obvious manner. The advance towards Stalingrad went through the territory of the Don Cossacks. There were no Jews present, In addition to this, after the first halt in 1941, the halt of the German attack, the attitude of the Germans toward the Jews was known - by the Russians, and the Jews had tried to escape before the German advance, and, of course, in 1942 this was the same, even more extensively so.
Q. You yourself had an objection to the shooting of Jews, is that right?
A. I never protested to any superior about it but I uttered my misgivings and I tried to evade the order through the kind of which my assignment was.
Q. Why did you call Blume soft because he did not execute more Jews?
A. I never said that I called him soft, I said that the leader of EK-O said something to this effect about Blume.
Q. This was not your expression, that he was soft because he did not execute Jews?
A. No, that was certainly not my expression.
Q. Now, you say that you executed only partisans, is that right?
A. Partisans, yes.
Q. And you would not execute a partisan unless he were actually engaged in some action against you?
A. If they had not by any action whatsoever damaged the security condition of the territory concerned.
Q. You would not shoot him unless he committed some overt act?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact that if you merely suspected a man of being a partisan that you shot him?
A. No. In that case he was an aid.
Q. He was what?
A. He helped -- he aided the partisans.
Q. And you would not shoot him?
A. If he helps or assists the partisans, then he is shot.
Q. Yes. Well, suppose you only suspected him of aiding, of being a partisan, would you shoot him?
A. If it had been confirmed that he helped the, then he should not be shot.
Q. Did you ever shoot anyone merely because he was suspected of being a partisan?
A. I never shot anybody myself. I know that it says in one report that people suspected of being partisans were shot.
Q. Well, that is not in a report, that is your own affidavit, isn't it?
A. That is not only my own affidavit, but is based on a report from the document in which it was said that in one particular operation of the commando in connection with wehrmacht units, partisans -- 40 partisans, or perhaps 41 partisans and people suspected of being partisans were shot. This report was read to me in my examination, and I said after the name of the village had been mentioned, that this village had been within my territory -- in the territory of my commando, and therefore it must have been my commando who carried it out.
Q. Your commando then executed people merely because they were suspected of being partisans in this instance?
A. Based on this report which is in this document, partisans and people suspected of being partisans -- there are 40 people who are concerned here -- must have been shot.
Q. Yes. Now, in shooting a man merely because he was suspected of being a criminal or a partisan, it was entirely possible that some innocent people were shot?
A. I hope that this was not the case.
Q. Well, it is possible, isn't it?
A. If it is just a suspicion, I cannot exclude it, but I believe that these must have been people who assisted the partisans.
Q. Now, just a minute, please. We have gone through that, we are not talking about those who assisted, those who assisted were partisans, they were active partisans; I am speaking only of those who were suspected of being partisans, they were shot. Now I am asking you whether it is not possible that when you executed a group of people known only as being suspected partisans, that an innocent person might be included in that group suspected of being partisans.
A. I think that investigations were conducted to that this case would be excluded.
Q. Now, I am putting this question directly to you, and please don't circumvent the question. If there is an investigation and a man is proved to be a partisan, the man is a partisan; if there is an investigation and he is proved to have assisted and the rules could have been put in effect then he would have been shot. I am speaking merely of one who is a suspect and when you make a list you say so many partisans, so many suspected partisans -- now I am referring to so many suspected. There is a possibility that an innocent man might be included in that group, is that correct?
A. If this report -
Q. Now, please answer that question. We are speaking of suspected partisans. If you shoot suspected partisans, there is a possibility that in some instance the suspicion is unfounded.
Do you admit that possibility?
A. If in any case people suspected to be partisans are executed without their guilt being proven ever of a smaller activity, in that case innocent people could have been shot, but I may assume, your Honor
Q. Well, you have told us the rest, that there was always an investigation, but you nonetheless in making up this statement very clearly said the persons executed were partisans, that is one group; persons suspected of being partisans, that is a second group; and members of the Russian army in the area of the 9th Army who had been hiding and disregarded our order, that is the third group. Now we have your explanation on suspected partisans. Day before yesterday we were on this subject and you stated in answer to a question, "Also in few questions so-called people suspected of partisan activity were shot." Now you went on further because -- we will give you the whole answer, "Among them were people of whom it could at least be proved that they voluntarily had been active for the partisans either by giving reports to the partisans or by assisting them in some manner voluntarily". Do you stand on that answer?
A. Yes. Thus was my conception of the term "suspected of being a partisan."
Q. I am calling your attention particularly to the wording. In referring to "Suspect", you said, "among them were people of whom it could at least be proved". "Among them", you don't say "all of them", but "among" those suspects.
A. According to my memory I said, "by people suspected to be partisans, were meant those who aided and abetted of an activity."
Q. Then you said the word "suspect".
A. Yes. I said the word "suspect."
Q. Well, do you understand what "suspect" means?
A. Yes.
Q. So when you say that in every case of an execution an exami nation was conducted and the guilt proved, and you used the term "suspect" with regard to individual, you are using the word incorrectly, are you aware of that?
A. Your Honor, my concept is the following. A partisan is a man who is active within his group. Those who help these groups make themselves suspects of indulging in partisan activity, but through this help he contributes toward the partisans and, therefore, he becomes punishable. That is my conception of it. He himself is not a partisan by not actually standing in the woods. I cannot call him a partisan because he is not a partisan, but he assists the partisan movement because he gives them information and news. He gives them supplies.
Q. And that is what you call a suspect?
A. This is the suspect, yes, to be a partisan himself and at the same time commits an act which gives reason for his execution, as punishment for his action.
Q. I think you might do yourself a great deal of good in studying the meaning of the word suspect. When you took over the commando, you started out to fight communism, didn't you?
A. Yes, I was detailed to Russia to take over this special commando. The purpose of the special commando was only made known to me when I arrived in Russia.
Q. And you were out to fight the communists and destroy the communists, is that right?
A. I refused to recognize communism as such, my duty was mainly to pass on information. I was simultaneously assigned to a military task, but this I had not expected before.
Q. Well, you were out to fight coumminsm, and it was your order to execute communists?
A. To shoot active communists.
Q. What would you call as activity on the part of a communist?
A. If a communist who, in a territory occupied by a German army unit actively opposes the decrease of the German army actively, be it by following the proclamation of the communist party in Russia, and contributes towards making the occupation of the German troops intensible, in that case he is an active communist who resists the occupation power and expresses it actively; this is communism.
Q. Suppose a communist makes a speech in which he merely talks about communism and speaks of his adherence to Karl Marx, makes no reference to Germany or its occupying forces, would you regard that as an activity calling for his execution?
A. He expresses his theories to me or any private person, this would hot be a reason for his execution, but if he -
Q. All right, now -
A. If he speaks to a larger public, then he is an active communist who acts against the decrease of the German occupation power which says that any activity for the communist party is prohibited, and will be punished by death.
Q. So that if you came into a room and found a communist speaking to 4 or 5 people, expounding the theory of Karl Marx and indicating his adherence to that theory, you would have him shot?
A. If he makes statements to the effect to resist the German cause, in this case I would have had him shot.
Q. Now, don't repeat my question. I said, you walk into a room and this man is making a speech for communsim to a group of 5 or 10 or 15 people, and he merely tells them how he likes the theory of Karl Marx, and he gives them a long speech about communism; he doesn't mention the Germans at all, would you take him out and shoot him?
A. I would first of all find out if there was an active resistance against the German occupation behind all his theory.
Q. Now, I have given you the question, don't introduce any other elements. You have had 8 days -- you had had an investigation of 8 days, and you find only that they made this speech and that he indicated a devout adherence to Karl Marx. Would you have him shot?
A. I would have got a look at the man, and if I was under the impression that he would put his theoretical conviction into seed, in that case I would have had him shot.
The actual speech or lecture could not be decided upon theoretically.
Q. So that you would listen to the speech and then you would look at him under a microscope, and after this big look, if you thought he might have done something, then you would have him shot. That is what we understand by your answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. While you were in command of 7A, one report shows that 63 communists were killed. The report is dated 25 October.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what these communists were doing about the type of activity which I have described to you?
A. No. That is an activity which largely is prevalent within the partisan movement. People were caught who were important functionaries of the communist party. Probably there also a few saboteurs and agents installed by the NKWD.
Q. Well, now, witness, since you were out to fight communism, why is it that you were so kind to the Jews when the Jews were the most active communists?
A. I have only been at those few places which I mentioned, and these places, Welisch-Welikki Luki, and at both these places the Jewish question was not as topical especially in comparison with the constant partisan danger so that the Jews in other places like Kalinin, for instance, where there were 30 and 40 Jews and the town was bombarded by Russian artillery fire, this question did not have to be dealt with immediately.
Q. Well, in all this time in the 9 months, do we understand you never saw a Jew?
A. I said also yesterday in my cross examination that in Welisch as well as in Kalinin and Rshow there were Jews, while in the sector of my second commando I cannot remember that there were any Jews. As I said, the Jews had left after the first stop of the German front, fled -after the first German holdup.
Q. Yes, but please answer the question. In all these 9-months' time, did you ever have to pass upon a Jew?
A. I said that in Welisch there were Jews and that in Kalinin there were Jews.
Q. All right, what did you do with the Jews in these two towns?
A. In the report, or in one of the reports it is mentioned that the Jews in Welisch -- in fact it is the report it is mentioned that that they put into ghettos. A further report from my commando chief says that a Jewish counsel was installed, and I am sure that in Rshow, Kalinin the regulations referring to Jews were made and were also a Jewish counsel was going to be formed.
Q. What did you do with the Jews that came before you either in examination or otherwise?
A. No Jews were put before me. I cannot remember any Jews.
Q. All right, well, then in all this time, coming back to the original question, in the 9-months' time you never had to pass sentence upon a Jew?
A. I did not conduct the investigations myself -- it is possible.
Q. In this time of 9-months while in command of one group and in command of another group, you never had to pass upon another Jew?
A. It is quite possible that there was one or two Jews among this or the other sentence and was shot under the general communist executions.
Q. You never had to pass upon a Jew as a Jew?
A. No, I don't remember that I ever sentenced a Jew as a Jew or that I confirmed such sentence. It is possible that among these partisans and communists there were Jews or could have been Jews.
Q. How many?
A. I don't know.
Q. You said a moment ago one or two Jews, now, were there more?
A. I said that there is the possibility that among these partisans or communists who were investigated were Jews.
Q. You don't know as a fact from your investigation whether even one Jew was executed among all these people who were killed -- you don't know as a fact that there was even one Jew?
A. I do not remember a concrete case of such.
Q. Then so far as your memory is concerned you do not recall one Jew in the 9 months' time that you were in Russia?
A. No, I remember so such case, but it is very probable.
Q. Well, now, let's get this very straight because we don't want to have any question about it. In the 9 months' time that you were in Russia you do not recall having passed on the case of one Jew?
A. No, because such a case would not have been submitted to me, as in the case of a Jew, but it would have been just one of the communist cases.
Q. Well, if you had an investigation of each man, if a man was a Jew, that would appear in the report, would it not, that he was a Jew in addition of being an active partisan?
A. Not necessarily, Your Honor; it is possible.
Q. Do you mean to tell us that any investigation made of a partisan or an active person resisting would not include his nationality and especially if he was a Jew in Russia?
A. No, I don't want to say that. It is possibly noted down if he is actually arrested as a Jew.
Q. He is arrested as a partisan, but in the investigation it develops that he is a Jew, wouldn't that appear in the record?
A. It is probable that it would appear in the record, yes.
Q. Now, I ask you the question again. In these 9 months' time did you ever pass upon a Jew?
A. I don't remember, but I think it probable.
Q. How many do you think that you passed upon?
A. I cannot give an estimate, but I think it possible that among those people sentenced there were Jews?
Q. How many Jews?
A. Your Honor, I can give no estimate; I can only say that I think that it possible that there were Jews among them.
Q. You think it possible, but you are not sure. Now, do you come back to the proposition that there were not Jews?
A. That I did not say, that there were no Jews.
Q. Well, you said it was possible, you doubt remember one instance where you saw definitely it was a Jew?
A. I cannot remember any individual cases.
Q. I certainly know that no Jew was sentenced because he was a Jew, but I thank it possible that among those executed there were individual Jews who were members of the partisan groups.
Q. But you don't remember how many?
A. No.
Q. Can you give us an estimate of the number?
A. No, I can give no estimate because, as I say, I don't remember any individual case, but I think it possible that there were possibly -at least I think it is probable even -- that there were Jews among these partisans or these communists.
Q. Perhaps two or three?
A. Your Honor, I can give no number because I would tell an untruth if I are to say that there were two or ten cases.
Q. Didn't you keep a report on the people that were executed -didn't you make a report on the people that were executed?
A. The reports were sent individually to the groups. Any sort of compilation was not carried out, as is mentioned in the situation reports.
Q. You got these reports, didn't you?
A. I generally received the individual reports of events if I was present.
Q. Yes, and from all these reports which you received of executions you do not recall whether any Jews were executed or not?
A. In any case no reports were received according to which Jews were executed as Jews. The kind of reporting makes it absolutely necessary that this would have been reported if it would have happened.
Q. You don't remember one report of any Jew who was executed as a partisan because he was a Jew?
A. I say I cannot remember any individual case, but I do not exclude the possibility by that there were Jews among the partisans.
Q. Now is it that you remember so well all these other reports that you were making, the reports on the collective farm system, on the Russian church, on the Bolchevik state, and you even made a study of Stalin's speeches, but would you regard that as more important than keeping a report on all the people that were killed?
A. Your Honor, I tried to explain that I did not regard the Police Department as work which was in my line and that I personally only tried to deal with the Information Service, reporting. Therefore, these activities were those which I was not interested in carrying out, because it was not my work, except for the one incident during the period which I have described when I was in my second commando.
Q. In spite of directives by Nebe that you give more attention to the Police Security Work, you still insist that your primary task was the making up of reports on farms and on Stalin's speeches?
A. My personal activity was through my field of activities until then, the SD reporting. For the Police and military organizations, I had collaborators which carried this out.
THE PRESIDENT: Are there any witnesses ready to be called? I have here Eugene.......no, that is the defendant.
DR. VON STEIN (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SANDBERGER):
Dr. Mae.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Mae? Very well. During the recess, unless there is any other redirect or recross, during the recess the present defendant witness will be brought in the box for examination.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. HJALMAR MAE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
JUDGE DIXON: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:
"I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing."
(The witness repeated the oath.)
JUDGE DIXON: You may be seated.
DR. VON STEIN (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SANDBERGER): May I start?
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed. BY DR. VON STEIN (ATTORNEY FOR THE DEFENDANT SANDBERGER):
Q. Witness, please describe briefly the most important points of your career, in as far as it is necessary to judge in how far it concerns the answering of the questions to come.
A. My name is Hjalmar Mae, born the 24th of October in Tartu, Esthonia. I am an Esthonian citizen. I am married. I am a Doctor of Philosophy, a Doctor of Political Sciences. I am a Protestant. Since 1929 I have been active as a politician in Esthonia.
Q. Witness, in the year when Russia occupied Esthonia, that is, 1940 to 1941, were you in Esthonia at that time?
A. Yes, until March 1941 I was in Esthonia. After that I fled in order to escape the Communists, but until 16 March 1941, I witnessed the occupation of my homeland by the Communists.
Q. Witness, how do you know about events in Esthonia since March 1941 until summer of 1941?
A. I know them from the statements of people whom I know to be trustworthy and reliable, from statements by members of my family who were in Esthonia at that time and official documents, which I personally read.
Q. When did you return to Esthonia?
A. I returned to Esthonia on the 16th of July, 1941 to Bernau, but I could only stay for one day, because the Field Commandant asked for my immediate return from Esthonia. After that I returned to Latvia. The Latvians gave me a house and on 18 August 1941, I was able to return to Esthonia to Bernau. Since then, I have been in Esthonia until 22 September 1944. Then I fled again in order to escape the new occupation by the Communist Troops there.
Q. When and where did you meet Dr. Sandberger?
A. I met Dr. Sandberger in Talinn. Talinn is the capital of Esthonia and in German it is called Reval. I met him there on 30 August 1941. I tried to meet him before, but I did not succeed. In Tartu, in German, Dorpat, and I did not manage to meet him in Ragnel, in German, Wesenberg, because Dr. Sandberger was always traveling and because of the attack on Talinn I was not able to reach him in Dorpat.
Q. Did you hear anything from other Estonian circles about Dr. Sandberger?
A. Yes; the reason why I tried so hard to meet Dr. Sandberger was that in Estonian circles in the south of Estonia it was known that he had tried to help us and that he was very understanding and, therefore, I wanted to meet him. The deputy of Dr. Kleist, who enabled me to make the journey - I asked him to introduce me to him but I only succeeded on 30 August.
Q. Please give us some Estonian names, who particularly tried to help you concerning Dr. Sandberger?
A. The Estonian Colonel Tilgre was a political counsellor since the first days of his activity in Estonia. Colonel Tilgre was a very highly esteemed officer. For about fifteen years he had been adjutant to the Prime Minister, he knew a great number of important persons, and Estonian nationalist circles suggested him, and Dr. Sandberger used him as his personal political counsellor until Talinn was captured.
Q. Witness, please tell us which office you took over in the fall of 1941 in Estonia.
A. On 20 September 1941, at the order of the commander of the Rear Army Territory North, I was given the position of a Director for Education and Law, as a member of the Estonian self administration. My colleagues practically considered me the chief of the Estonian self administration and accepted me as such, and in their capacity I was active until I was officially confirmed in that position.
Q. Witness, to take up such an important position which was given to you by the Estonian president.........was this made legitimate?
A. Repeatedly I had discussions with our State president after the occupation of our homeland, who was convinced - like all of us - that the War between the Soviet Union and Germany would come about soon, only it was not obvious who would start this war. He was the Germans would win.
He believed, however, that the United States of America would take part in the war and that this entry would bring about the final victory to the Allies. For that reason for us it was come about to recover the sovereignty of our State.
He gave me the Communism would regain their independence.
Q. Witness, may I ask you to speak a little slower so that to hold this important position in Estonia?
A. Dr. Kleist. Dr. Kleist was in the Foreign Office, and Dr. Kleist knew Estonia very well.
He was sympathetic towards it, Denmark.
Dr. Kleist shortly before the beginning of the war with right that the development of events through the so-called fait accompli
Q. Witness, how were you appointed in Estonia?
A. Dr. Kleist assisted here because he negotiated with Army agencies.
On 16 July I was able to travel to Bernau. I intended central Estonian administration agency.
Q. What was the situation which you found at the time in the city of Bernau?