from the document itself, because the periods of time, mentioned in the documents do not correspond. Thus it says on page 1 of the original, at the bottom: On the first of November 1932, S. reported voluntarily for service in the Wehrmacht; and until the first of July 1933, he was in military training. That is the same time during which I was mentioned here as serving in the SA. This date, the first of May 1933, can be explained through the fact that at the time I was registered in the Office for Physical Training of the University of Goettingen, and I was mentioned by them that I should be put at the disposal of the schools of this organization for further training. That the periods are incorrect becomes evident from Page 7 of the original. There it says under SA, a dot--or at least an asterik--a few dots, then a diagonal 7 W. This has become evident from the photostat that it is: Chief A W, and that is the organization with which I actually was active as a physical trainer.
Q Was this the organization which belonged to the SA? former members of the SA and men who could deal with military training and to whom military trainers were detached. There are various mix-ups, but I don't think they are of importance now.
Q What about the membership in the SS?
A The date: 6 November 1935 may mean the date since I was active in the SS formation--the SD; especially as the service ranks contained in this document show that I was not, as it was usual and as I should have been, transferred to holding the same service rank, but that on the 6 November 1935 I was Unterscharfuehrer, and then I became a Scharfuehrer a few months later, and then again a few months later I received the service rank of Oberscharfuehrer-- all non-commissioned officer ranks. They are all ranks not corresponding to my rank which I held in the Wehrmacht.
Q. Is the statement correct that on 6 November 1935, you joined the SS as an organization?
A. No, I joined the SD, and not the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Gawlik, shall we have our recess now?
DR. GAWLIK: I would like to ask you one thing, your Honor. My colleague, Dr. Aschenauer, sent me a note saying that he would like the Defendant Ohlendorf to be excused from the session this afternoon. The reason is an interrogation with Herr Schonfeld, as I see here.
THE PRESIDENT: The request, of course, is granted, and the Defendant Ohlendorf will be accompanied by the Marshal to what room number, Dr. Gawlik?
DR. GAWLIK: It does not mention the number of the room. It says Mr. Schonfeld.
MR. GLANCY: That is Mr. Walter Schonfeld, Sir, associated with the I. G. Farben trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Do we have a room number?
MR. GLANCY: I can find out in just a moment, Sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Will the Marshal please inform himself as to the destination of the Defendant Ohlendorf for this afternoon and have him in custody and properly delivered to the person who desires to interrogate him?
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By Dr. Gawlik) Witness, please comment on the document, especially about the statements on page 92 of the German document book, where it is noted, "joined the SS, 1 November" and under the same date "Unterscharfuehrer SD."
A. I did not become active in the SD on the 1st of November, but I assume that this date is due to the fact that the negotiations about transfer from the Army to the scharfuehrer, corresponding to a PFC in the German Army, was dated retroactively before I became active in order that I might reach more quickly the further dates of promotion, 20 April 1936 and 13 September 1936, which had been promised me, and in the same manner in which such transfers usually were carried out, namely, with the same rank.
Q. How do you explain the mistakes mentioned by you in this document?
A. I trace them back to typographical errors which can arise when these matters are entered into the files, when they are copied on other files, in correspondence, et cetera.
Q. What activity did you carry out in the SD?
A. I was used as an expert in the then department economics; that is to say, in the section trade, traffic and commerce and later I became head of the department, and after 1938 I also became deputy of the group chief economics.
Q. When did you become department chief?
A. I became department chief due to the reorganization in 1939, through the fact that Office 3 was created and the referats were now prom oted to departments from that time on. But I want to say that the designation referat or department in correspondence as well as in the usual custom of using the word, was not uniform in the SD organization.
In the one SD organization, for example, for instance,the office in Frankfurt on the Main, the economic expert was called department chief; the same expert in Brauschweig was called an economic referent.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, as Seibert Exhibit No. 1 I submit a sketch about the organization of the agencies of the Chief of the Security Police and the SD. us in which group you were active. are listed on this sketch. We did not bother to list all sub-divisions of offices, merely Office III is subdivided. As sub-divisions of Office III there were four groups; Group III-A, administration and law, Group III-B, public health and folkdom; Group III-C, cultural questions; and Group III-D, economics. In this sketch we did not list the office of the adjutant or the post office which were under Office III as independent agencies, but we merely showed these four groups. Of these four groups, the Group III-D was again sub-divided. If the picture were complete, the other groups would be sub-divided in a similar manner. The listed five departments belong to this Group III-D: III-D-1, agriculture; III-D-2, trade, commerce and transportation; III-D-3, banks and finance; III-D-4, industry; and III-D-5 , labor and social welfare. Looking at it from a personnel point of view, the Chief of Office III-D was Ohlendorf; the head of III-A was Gehlenbach; of Group III-B, Dr. Ehlich; Group III-C, Dr. Spengler; and Group III-D, Ohlendorf. I was deputy of the Group Chief of Economics, that is Ohlendorf in his capacity as Department Chief of Economics; and my position was under Department III-D-2 until the 1st of February 1944, that is to say, commerce, transportation and trade; and at the same time I was deputy for the Group Chief Economics. Only in the last year of the war did I become chief of Department Economics.
Q Can you describe your activity in detail?
economic department and to observe them; to gather information in the entire Reich, and to pass on these reports to the economic ministry and to other agencies. For my department, or later it was a group, I received my reports from the thousands of honorary confidence men from all classes of the population who sent their reports to the local SD agencies, who then passed them on to the RSHA. In order to describe this activity which took all my time, apart from the Russian assignment, I may give two or three examples to show how this activity was carried on. When, in the first few months of the war it was seen that for the agricultural and industrial workers too few shoes were available, and this began to have its effect upon the morale of the workers, as well as on the economy itself, we received reports about this from all parts of the Reich, which I compiled and sent on to the proper economic agency. I was informed by that agency at the time that almost the entire allocation for leather had been requisitioned by the supreme commander of the army, and could no longer be made available to the civilian population; but these reports did not decrease. In the spring of 1940 -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) Dr. Gawlik, why is it necessary to go into so much detail on the activities of this office?
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, the witness is accused here of membership in the SD, as a criminal organization; and, therefore, is supposed to be punished for the activity which he had described here; and, therefore, I consider it relevant that he describe in detail what he actually did during the time in which he was not in Russia and for which he is supposed to be punished too.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, are you basing that Count in the indictment regarding membership in a criminal organization on activities in the office, activities such as he is now going into?
MR. WALTON: No, Your Honor, that count in the indictment is based merely upon the first IMT judgment. I have no doubt that the majority of his activities outside of Russia were perfectly legal. We do not contend that membership in an organization declared to be criminal by the International Military Tribunal is the basis for the count in the indictment.
Now, we intend to show that members of the SD as well as members of other organizations committed criminal acts, but I don't care to say where or when at this particular time.
THE PRESIDENT: No. Well, Dr. Gawlik, it is entirely proper for you to show that his work in the offices was entirely legal and proper. We do not at all discount the importance of that, but I don't see why it is necessary to go into so much detail. If you point out that he was in this office and he had charge of a certain department which had to do with economics of the nation, it seems to be that it might be enough, but to give us the names of the head of each one of these sub-departments can't be of much assistance in determining the real issue.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, this question is finished now. He described his activity which is supposed to be considered, according to the Prosecution criminal, and in order to clarify this for the Tribunal what he actually did, he must give a few examples in my opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that is entirely in order, Dr. Gawlik, but now you have covered that; and if the Prosecution does not rebut it, then it stands that his activities when he was in charge of this particular department did not involve criminality. Now, if the Prosecution attacks that, then you certainly have the right to go into it in a great deal more detail.
DR. GAWLIK: It has already attacked it through the indictment.
THE PRESIDENT: And then you replied to it now.
DR. GAWLIK: It is my duty to defend him against what he has done. If the Prosecution says that it does not consider this activity in his office criminal, then I shall interrupt at this point. It is only up to the Prosecution to make an express statement.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know if the Prosecution is going that far.
DR. GAWLIK: I don't know, Your Honor, how far the Prosecution goes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well -
DR. GAWLIK: Therefore, I must defend myself in all directions. If the Prosecution gives me a precise answer how far its contention of criminality goes -
THE PRESIDENT: (Interposing) It is very obvious you are going in all directions with all these shoes that you are getting.
Proceed, Dr. Gawlik. BY DR. GAWLIK: your activity in Office III-D. I have occupied myself all the time and personally. These are several extensive reports about the organization of the economic administration which is just red-tape and paper work. The reports showed, just to cite one example, that for the question of labor allocation alone more than twenty agencies were competent for this field, and that this was very difficult for the people concerned and for the population.
COURT II CASE IX I mention only one brief example from all these reports. We have tried through these reports to achieve a reform in the organization. Reforms were started in this direction, but they did not become very effective.
Q. Outisde of the measures and the jobs you have listed in Group III-D, did you have any other jobs to do or did you carry on any other activities?
A. No, at no time. I was not in any other departments, either in an informational or an organizational manner.
Q. Did you have the possibility of having your way about the proposals made in these reports?
A. The suggestions for improvement listed in these reports came from experts and were merely given to the leading agencies for their information. Whether a regulation was thereupon changed was only decided by this ministry or the organization. That had to be this way and we could not take over this responsibility.
Q. During your activity in this Group III-D, did you have anything to do about investigating sabotage activities?
A. No, we were not an economic police, no trade police either, merely an informational organization.
Q. Who was competent for the investigation of sabotage cases in economics?
A. Outside of the police, there was a Department of Economics in Office IV and there was a Department of Economics in Office V of the Criminal Police.
Q. Did you carry on your activity secretly?
A. No, at no time did I use an alias and I always participated openly and officially in all conferences, mostly in uniform.
Q. When were you detailed to Einsatzgruppe D?
A. In the middle of June, 1941.
Q. What rank did you have at that time?
A. SS Sturmbannfuehrer, which is equivalent to a Major.
Q. Were you relieved of your post in the Group III-D when you were ordered to Russia?
A. No, a deputy was appointed for that time and I retained this service.
Q. How long were you with Einsatzgruppe D?
A. About ten months.
Q. Did you report voluntarily to Einsatzgruppe D?
A. No.
Q. How did you come to go to Einsatzgruppe D?
A. Office I of the RSHA ordered me to.
Q. Did you have a possibility not to obey this order?
A. No, I was under military law.
Q. Since when were you subject to military law?
A. Since the 1st of September, 1939.
Q. What would have happened if you had not obeyed this order?
A. I would have been put before an SS and Police Court and punished.
Q. When you were ordered there, did you know about the missions of the Einsatzgruppe?
A. The measures of the Einsatzgruppe were not known to me in detail, but I knew that the missions which an Einsatz agency had to carry out in the occupied territories consisted of the following: First, security missions in order to secure the occupied area, including measures for the interior administration, and, second, SD mission, that is, to report about the morale and about the situation of public life of this occupied area. As for myself, personally, I assumed that I was to gather material for these reports.
Q. Which missions were you destined for in the Einsatzgruppe?
A. I was supposed to become head of Office III, namely, for these SD missions, within the staff of the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. What were your missions to be in detail?
A. As Director III, I was concerned with gathering material about the morale of the population, about the administrative situation, about health, education, and all economic questions, and I was to send on these reports to the local agencies and to Berlin.
Q. Could this mission be gathered from the designation which you received?
A. Yes, there was an order for me to become Director III.
Q. Perhaps you can explain to the Tribunal what this "No. III" means. Whey was this "No. III" chosen?
A. The "No. III" was chosen because this was the same mission which the Department III had in making out its reports. It, of course, applied here to the occupied foreign area.
Q. Was this mission as Director III mentioned in the order of transfer expressly?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the reasons that you were ordered to be used for this purpose?
A. For this SD mission, namely, this III mission, only a collaborator of Office III could be used.
Q. Were you also supposed to carry out any executive measures?
A. No, no provision was made for this.
Q. Who was destined to carry out the executive measures?
A. Office I of the RSHA had designated a Director IV and ordered him to join the staff, but he did not become active, because Ohlendorf, after conferring with Office I, had ordered that the staff should not carry out any executive measures and this Director IV, who had been provided for COURT II CASE IX them, received a commando when the Russian war started.
There was no other collaborator in the staff, no interrogating officer.
Q. Who was Chief of Einsatzgruppe D during your assignment?
A. The Chief was Ohlendorf.
Q. When you were transferred, were you designated to become the deputy of Einsatzgruppe Chief Ohlendorf?
A. No.
Q. Who was designated as the Deputy Chief?
A. Office I Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach had designated the senior Commando leader, commando Leader Setzen, as Deputy Chief of the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Whey was Setzen designated as the Deputy Chief?
A. I can not imagine, because he was an old experienced executive officer.
of Einsatzgruppe D? and gypsies and communist functionaries? other commando leaders. BY THE PRESIDENT:
A On the trip to the garrison called Piatra Neamt. That is in Rumania.
Q Did you not go to Pretsch first?
A No. I was not in Pretsch, Your Honor. BY DR. GAWLIK: Ohlendorf, too, and with the commando leaders about this order,
Q When was that? July 1941. announced to you in Pretsch? Einsatzgruppen had been called together in Pretsch. I was not even asked to participate in that.
Q Well, did you go at all to Pretsch? I was in Pretsch School once or twice. being given and preparations were being made for the mission to Russia? the middle of June, and I retained my residence in Berlin and merely went to Dueben by car not every day because I still had to complete my affairs in the department economics.
being made for the mission?
Q You were in Dueben during the preparation for the mission? say any more exactly. I went to Dueben for several hours and when the advance was at hand, one day before I remained in Dueben.
Q Was Ohlendorf there?
Q Did you see Ohlendorf in Dueben?
Q And didn't he talk with you about the mission which was to be performed in Russia?
Q No one mentioned the Fuehrerorder at all to you in Dueben?
Q Did Ohlendorf tell you what the purpose of the mission was? Jobs in the occupied areas; I did not get to hear the Fuehrerorder until we left Dueben by speaking to commando leadersand with Ohlendorf.
Q When did Ohlendorf tell you about the Fuehrer order? today whether we spoke about it already on the way when I spoke about It to the commando leaders.
Q Did you travel with Ohlendorf from Dueben?
Q Did you travel in the same car with him?
A No. There ware 180 vehicles and a fewdays before Ohlendorf gave me the job to carry out this motorized advance and to see that it was correctly carried out; therefore, I was on a motocycle during the entire advance.
Q When did he tell you that you were to be his deputy?
Q Well, now, you were his deputy, weren't you?
A No. I wasnever his deputy. I merely was representative for my sphere as chief in department III.
Q Do you remember when you left Dueben, what day? you exactly.
PRESIDENT: Very well, I am sorry to have interrupted you, Dr. Gawlik. BY Dr. GAWLIK: you did not attend this gathering in Pretsch when the Fuehrerorder was known? whom this order was given for its execution. As the future head of Department 3 I was not even asked to participate in this meeting. to which persons? Tint is to say, to those people who had something to do with the execution of the order. order?
A No. This did not belong to the missions of Leader 3. it in this first garrison?. killing of defenseless people and because I considered the killing of defenseless people generally as incorrect no matter with what weapons it is carried out.
carrying out of the order as Director 3. Can you motivate this answer a little more in detail? out reports, of gathering material, of maintaining constant contact with the local agencies, and not of the carrying out of this order.
Q Where was the garrison of the group staff -- during' the time you belongedto the group staff? the 11th Army or nearby.
Q How large was the number of members of the group staff?
A The group staff consisted of eight officers. The administrative officer for the Departments 1 and 2, that is, Personnel and Administration, the Director 3, that wasmyself; the adjutant; the interpreter; the doctor; the chief of the police company; the motor pool expert - I think that is all.
Q What was your job and mission within the group staff? Ohlendorf had told me to keep up liaison with the 11th Army and he made that my field, too, Director 3, just a few brief examples? members of the commando. Every commando had either an officer or an appropriate non-commissioned officer, but unfortunately only one person usually who had the same mission in his area. That is to say, he had to make reports about the morale of the population, about the situation in the spheres off public life which I have mentioned before, and to report to his agency, that is, the Division of Corp and keep them informed currently and also to pass on these reports to the group.
These could only be symptomatic reports about such large areas. I would merely like to mention that the expert 3 of the commando 10A, for example, had to work in an area which is half as large as Bavaria.
receive their money? population, that is to say, from the Ukrainians and the Tartars, who because of their political opinions voluntarily put themselves at the disposal of such work, and also from the agriculture leaders so far as they were available and other agencies. authorities. That is, a report as to the harvest for instance went to the Food Ministry by way of the RSHA, and, moreover, these reports went to the various staff sections of the 11th Army. For example, to the Chief of Staff, and to the Commanding General himself if it was important, and to the C-II; to the Economic Commanders, to the agriculture leadership, to the Quartermaster with C-IV, and to I-B, that is also C-IV. in these reports during this time which you made them out? there is only one or two reports which are concerned with those missions, but such reports were currently made out, and the were included in the Situational Report to much a greater extent. Furthermore, more extensive special reports, for example, asreport which I made out myself about the entire economic structure of the Crimea, or about the Tartars. Such reports are not included in these Situational Reports. Furthermore, the almost daily reports which were sent to the local agencies are missing in these Situational Reports. In order to give only two or three examples, in every report there was something said about the morale, not once but in every locality which was newly conquered; and the food, situation of the population, the re-establishment of industry, and so forth. The reports show that all phases of public life were considered, so that I don't think I need give any other examples.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, in order to prove the activity of the witness in Einsatzgruppe, I shall submit parts of these documents as exhibits in order to prove what the defendant actually did in the Einsatzgruppe.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you submitting it now, or will you submit them with your document book -- I am sorry. Do you intent to submit them now, or with your document book?
DR. GAWLIK: In my document book.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q What mission did you have as an expert for Army matters? which I don't want to go into detail again. Furthermore, the reports about partisan intelligence, which were always given to Einsatzgruppe by the kommandos, I had to make out these partisan reports, and sent them to the 11th Army in care of the staff for combatting partisans. Furthermore, I had to take care of the military decorations for members of the Einsatzgruppe-D, and I had to discuss these with the G-I, and to submit them to him. commando? Communist functionaries?
Q Did you ever give an order to kill such people?
Q Did you ever pass on such an order to kill these people? execution of these people?
the English, I submit to you Exhibit 28, Document No. 3055, which is Schubert's affidavit. In this affidavit Schubert states the following: In December 1941 I was ordered by Ohlendorf-Seibert to supervise the execution of about 700 to 800 people, and to inspect it, which was near Simferopol," Are these statements correct? say how Schubert came about to make this statement, for I was not in Russia at all during this period of time, I was in Berlin. Only for this reason I could not have given this order to Schubert; whether he formulated the statement, I don't know. group-staff? Einsatzspecial-commandos?
Q When did you hear about the individual executions? learned about then through the reports which the Einsatzcommando sent to the Einsatzgruppe. on by the Einsatzcommandos and special commandos?
A I didn't see this possibility because the chief of Einsatzgruppe himself didn't have this possibility. I had a lower rank, a lower ranking position. Once I witnessed when the chief of Einsatzgruppe tried to do something about this order. This was in Nikolajew, the occasion of Himmler's visit at the beginning of October 1941, during a dinner which took place at that time in which I participated. There were in attendance about twenty or twenty-five persons, and these were officers from the offices of commanders in the vicinity who had been called together for this occasion, and, there were several escorting officers of Himmler's present.
I was a witness on this occasion when after the dinner Ohlendorf addressed Himmler concerning this order, mentioning especially the difficulty of carrying it out; the difficulty for the men who had to carry out this order. I was sitting across the table, Ohlendorf was sitting next to Himmler, and I waited with, great expectancy of what Himmler mould answer to this, but Himmler did not react at all on this. I personally saw no possibility of speaking to Himmler. He was constantly surrounded by high ranking officers.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't quite understand what you mean, witness, by saying, "That Himmler didn't react at all," Did he say anything?
THE WITNESS: No, he said nothing, Your Honor. I notice from his reaction that he was unwilling, and didn't want to go into a debate.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, now, going into a debate goes far beyond a mere answer. Did he not say something; to Ohlendorf who had addressed a proposition to him?
THE WITNESS: No, he didn't say anything, but he turned to his righthand neighbor in order to discuss something with him.
THE PRESIDENT: He didn't say a word to Ohlendorf?
THE WITNESS: About this subject nothing, but, of course, later they discussed something about other things.
THE PRESIDENT: When Ohlendorf presented his proposition to him, was it a long statement or a short statement?
THE WITNESS: It was not much longer than I just described it. He especially pointedout the difficulty of his men when carrying out this order.
THE PRESIDENT: Did Himmler apparently listen to Ohlendorf's statement?